Hello.

Hi David! Welcome to Firedoglake Movie Night–and thank you for being here! I have heaps of questions about Frisbee, and I know are reders do as well…first of, what lead you /drew you to Lonnie’s story? How did you leanr about him?

David, Welcome to the Lake.

Thanks. Well, I was raised in a conservative evangelical church where people with Lonnie’s… what shall we call it… spiritual prowess?… were bandied as “the ideal.” Twenty years later, I was still drawn to these types of figures, even though my understanding of things had complexified.

Thanks for having me.

How difficult was it to find peopel willing ot discuss what must have been a vry uncomfortable issue: that one of the main leaders/founders was a gay man?

Well, that is a complex answer. First, and I realize this begs some more discussion, but defining Lonnie as “gay” is tricky. On the one hand, yes, by definition perhaps, one who has same-sex relations are considered “gay.” But the evangelical community is not the only one to play semantics with sexual nomenclature, and they didn’t see Lonnie as being “gay,” nor, for that matter, did Lonnie.

Most of the folks that he hung with would cop to believing that he “lapsed” or “fell into” this behavior on occasion, like it was a glitch in his moral makeup. So, that’s how they saw him, and that’s how I portrayed it in the movie.

So, they weren’t necessarily adverse to talking about it or him. What they didn’t want to believe was that this behavior was rampant in his life… or that he in fact was a gay man living within a Christian world.

Complex…

Yet he was expelled when it came out that he’d had sexual relations with a male parishioner–would that have been the case if the encounter had been with a woman?

Yes, that is true. When this one particular minister, the head of the Vineyard Churches, found out that Lonnie had engaged in same-sex activity, he confronted and ousted him from participation in the Vineyard.

However, there is good reason to believe that his first mentor, Chuck Smith, knew about Lonnie’s behavior, and extended a lot of grace his way… by looking the other way… even though he was uncomfortable.

Would a male minister be ousted for having sex with a female parisioner… probably, but it depends on the situation and the people involved in the leadership. The evangelical movement is broad. They don’t all act the same.

My beef was that it is hypocritical to send anyone out of your midst for committing a “sin” because I think the message of Jesus was… who of us is without this sort of thing in their life? I think evangelical Christians have prioritized things such as “sexual sins” as primary, while they wink at money issues and being judgmental.

My question is… why point at this guy when your life is filled with such grief, just in another realm?

Several pastors raise these questions Why did God’s blessing rest on Lonnie who “shouldn’t have had it,” as one pastor claims? Why did “God place his spirit on a homosexual, the same thing any of us ask God?” wonders another, whihc definitley make it seem that they felt Lonnie was a sinner….

His gifts were awesome, btw…

Yes, complex. Religion and sexuality are probably harder to talk about than religion and politics.
And then, the semantics thingy. *g*
In your answer to Lisa, you said,
But the evangelical community is not the only one to play semantics with sexual nomenclature, and they didn’t see Lonnie as being “gay,” nor, for that matter, did Lonnie.
Can you spell out a bit more what you learned from the issues.
Did the evangelicals see the “gay” as just a poor choice he made from time to time? Is that how they explain why God spoke to Frisbee? As if God would not really be revealed to a let’s say Full-Fledged Homosexual?
How did Frisbee see himself, if not gay? Did he identify more with being a Christian?
This is an issue I’ve been contemplating seriously.

That was a funny thing to me… as if somehow this causes God to look askance at Lonnie… as opposed to whatever they do in private. Again, many of them have decided because of the politics of religious fear that homosexuality is the thing that wrankles God the worst… and they act accordingly.

Sorry for speaking as a theologian… but this is taking the very words they say they love and answering them… the Bible itself asks the question… what kind of God would he be if he gave good gifts to his children, then took them away when they were bad or acted out? The Bible goes on to say that God grants gifts… and they are the propriety of the person upon whom those gifts are bestowed, to do whatever they want with them.

Same thing with free will or sexuality or whatever is granted by God.

That some of these guys didn’t get what a great deal this is… that God doesn’t hammer them every time they step out of line, is amazing. But then again, it is reflected in their church polity… soon as some person screws up in the wrong area, they are dropped like a hot potato and disfellowshipped. And they justify that sort of behavior as if God is the author of it all.

Where has this film been shown?

I gather Lonnie died from AIDS, is that correct?

Interesting that these ‘pastors’ would question God’s blessing being on Lonnie.

It seems to me if I remember correctly that Saul hadn’t lived such an exemplary life until his epiphany. And I think there were a couple of the disciples who at first blush did not fit the established ‘norm.’ (Mathew was a tax collector if I remember correctly).

And for those who would question Lonnie on this, I would ask what gives them the right to question God’s decisions?

Hi Demi…

It depends on whom you speak with. There are evangelicals who are coming around to the reality that homosexuality is not always a choice. Having met some people who say, “When you came of age and first felt opposite sex pangs of attraction, I was feeling same sex pangs,” I find quoting them black and white answers from the Bible pretty useless.

My response has been just to listen to them and learn from their experience. I know that for me it would be the wrong decision, but for this person and what they are saying to me… how can I possibly walk in their shoes? Too, why would someone choose to be ostracized from everyone in their life.

I think there are good and honest Christians that are listening to this.

But we’re talking the 1970s and early 1980s when Lonnie was doing his thing. That is a long time ago, and those issues weren’t dealt with as they are today. So, a lot of them see Lonnie’s thing as relating to his abuse as a youngster… plus, Lonnie’s own adamance that he was not gay… and that he always preached that it was a sin.

But, when he was down, that is what he gravitated towards… and that says something. I just don’t think he is your uber-gay saint, like Harvey Milk.

Religion is about two things: Sex and Death. It deals with the latter by promulgating the notion of an “afterlife.” It cannot come to grips with the former at all, and therefore seeks to control it.

One reason I wanted to have you here was because of yes on Prop 8 which was suppoerted by both Vineyard and Calvary…they have hidden Lonnie for so long..and I agree wiht you that God blesses people with gifts, and it not a human’s place to really question God’s will (presupposing of course a belief in the divine).

Now, Lonnie’s epiphany, his conversion –did that raise questions wiht the evangelicals, like Is God found through drugs truly God? And if so, then why is drug use considered a bad thing and discouraged once the user has a conversion experience?

I find the notion of “choice” hilarious. (I am 61 years old and “openly gay” for the better part of those years.) No one asks how people “choose” heterosexuality.

I think that is what I loved about this story… God chooses whom he does, and people just can’t get their heads around it. But if you look at the choice of Lonnie, it makes sense in the economy of what the Bible teaches… that God often draws the weakest, the runt of the litter… and lifts them up and empowers them, in spite of the protestations of the powerful and elite.

Instead of getting encouragement from the story, that God would choose the least… they are standing around wondering why God didn’t choose them.

Funny. … or, sad…

Can you spell out a bit more what you learned from the issues interviews.
Sorry.
I find it interesting how some Christians can accept all God’s children with an open heart and a mind to inclusiveness, but so many can only be Exclusive Christians.
Could this be the hardest test, to accept that God’s love and grace is for everyone?
I believe in prevenient grace, and that has to account for all of us, just as we are.

HA! Amway advertising on MSNBC.

Lonnie’s conversion story while on acid… I LOVE THAT PART… still do. It’s my favorite part of the story.

And yet, … the people who just couldn’t get their heads around that.

I had a guy in Hollywood who was a Christian and had worked on a number of movies and signed me to an option deal to bring Frisbee around to a number of companies… I met him the first time after having spoken to him on the phone and the first thing he said was, “I still don’t know if Lonnie was a representative of God… or the devil.”

I was dumbstruck.

His reason? Because he came to God while on acid. To him, God just wouldn’t do something like that.

Okay…glad you have it all figured out…

That is why Chuck Smith Jr is so great in the movie… he contrasts his father’s early stance towards the hippies, that he welcomed them with open arms.

And why not to these other groups, like the homosexuals?

I think Lonnie’s life would make an amazing feature film because of the contradictions…If God wouldnt do that…but yet he DID.In the same way he chose to give the gifts of charisma to Lonnie, despite (or perhaps because of) his “fluid sexuality,” I guess would be the best term for it.

Lonnie’s story I think shows that God does work in msyerious ways, beyond the cmprehension ofmany–especiallty those rigid pastors detirmined to say they know best.

A book that changed my life and allowed me to let go of religion and embrace a spiritual view of the universe is “Stealing Jesus” by Bruce Bawer, himself a gay man. He speaks of the Christianity brought to the United States and how it has splintered and spread throughout the world. Evangelical, orthodox Christianity emphasizes law over love; dogma over devotion to a higher purpose. Bawer shows how Christ’s essential messages to the world have been misappropriated and misinterpreted by these churches. No longer is the message to love one another, to love God, and to love thy neighbor as thyself. Now, it is to foster hatred of the “other”—anyone who does not believe the same doctrines.

How sad that this man of God, Lonnie Frisbee, should have been cast off and disgarded from any church on the basis of his sexuality. I look forward to seeing this film at some point. Thank you for making it.

If I am to tout tolerance and love of others, it behooves me to foster that same tolerance and love in myself for the hatemongers, although—God help me—it seems an impossible task.

I think the issue is so charged with emotion that many people are afraid to enter in. There are a lot of well-meaning Christians who want to reach out and understand, but whenever they disagree they are immediately branded “homophobes”… which isn’t fair.

On the other hand, I understand the anger from the other side. I can’t imagine being made to feel inferior for something that was innate.

Chuck Smith Sr seemed like he wanted to exploit and control the youht movement, to make them less of a threat to the establishment and to use them–especially Lonnie–to build up a his congregation.

There is movement afoot, already. We’ve had some serious talks about turning it into a feature. All talk at this point, but it is good talk.

Do you think The Church has really moved forward with their acceptance of gays since the 60’s and 70’s?
I’m hoping they are moving in the right direction. I know there are many people who want it resolved, one way or the other, right now, dang it all.
I’m a practicing and very involved Methodist and I know that there are many Bishops who really wanted Prop 8 to fail. My conference bishop wrote strongly and openly for freedom of marriage for everyone, but there are many who are “freaked” by that notion, and I’ve heard some worry that this will be the issue that breaks the church apart. I’ve also read about some Episcopalians who are contemplating breaking away.

Chuck Smith Sr. is cut of a bygone era, and it is hard to wrap your head around him. In many ways he is very open. In other ways, not at all.

I give him kudos for putting a former homosexual up on stage in 1968. In conservative Orange County and in a Pentecostal church? That is showing some chutzpah.

On the other hand, he doesn’t allow saxophone playing on any of the music that comes out of the music company associated with his church. Why? Saxophone is jazz… and jazz is all about sex.

He’s hard to figure out.

This is weird question and one that may not interest anyone else…so forgive me, but what are the theological differences between Calvary and Vineyard? The minutae of American Protestant denominational differences fascinates me

Demi,

I think it has. John Wimber, the minister who outed Lonnie and banned him from the Vineyard, started a ministry called Desert Streams to help homosexuals in similar circumstances as Lonnie to confront their reality.

I think things have changed a great deal, yes. The issue is tabled and there are good people who have a heart for this now.

But if you are looking for widespread acceptance, I think you are going to see a long and drawn out battle.

And truthfully, I think it is wrong to blame religious folks for the Prop 8 decision. Rolling Stone just did a major article on it in this month’s issue. They blame the incompetency of the gay community who didn’t properly politicize the issue.

Again, scapegoating the religious folks… not sure how that is going to help win them over.

No saxophones? Now, that’s really being exclusive.
Keep up those good talks. I’d love to see the story as a feature film.

Well to disagree is a complex response. What we get from from the leading Christian faiths is outright rejection with no

ifs

ands

or

buts

.

A heterosexual who doesn’t understand gayness and sincerely wants to would go about it in quite a different fashion.

Every church takes on the characteristics of the leader. So, while both Pentecostal in their origin, Calvary Chapel is more centered on teaching the Bible and making the gifts of the Spirit (speaking in tongues, healing, etc.) a secondary thing to Bible study and preaching.

Vineyard was led by a guy named John Wimber, someone who was all over the map theologically, but was for a time an aggressive charismatic, open to everything with regard to the Spirit and its moving. So, they are more into the power of the Holy Spirit and the manifestation of the Spirit in their presence.

Calvary Chapel has the Bible at the center. Vineyard has the Power of the Spirit at the center.

Both are wrong… love should be at the center. I am just not enough of an egoist to start my own church. =)

Not “religious folks” in general — the LDS church in particular. Millions and millions of dollars were spent by the LDS to promote Prop 8. Now they’re reaping the whirlwind. They’re very unhappy about it of course, but talk to the hand!

I remember the Jesus People, very well. Now, years later, I’m familiar with Calvary Chapel (not very, but somewhat).
Breaks my heart that we treat people so harshly, and we treat ourselves harshly.

I think it’s a lot easier to turn away from people you don’t understand. I find it more challenging to try and understand and love those exact ones.
It’s why I’ve started going to a church that has some member who are outspoke about their judgement of gays. Swinging with a lead bat it is, for me. I’m working my tail off at that church, so that when the time is right, I will have a stronger basis from which to speak to them about how I feel and what I believe.
I believe tolerance goes both ways, and I’m trying to learn as much as I can. And, love as much as I can.

But certainly not all churches. There are churches that will welcome homosexuals into the conversation. I know of a lot of guys from the “emergent church” (a group of young evangelical leaders who wish to “emerge” from the old styles of traditional church) who seek out every opportunity to have conversations with people whom they disagree with.

They are out there.

I realize this is difficult, but in the same way that not every homosexual is the guy in the assless chaps dancing naked at Gay Pride day (which is the stereotype that is heard in evangelical circles), not every Christian is a close-minded bigot.

I know it sometimes doesn’t seem that way… but if this is going to get beyond shouting, someone has to begin the trust process.

It is so odd to think that some conservative fundamentalists, or at least their churchs come out of a hippie background…

I’m not sure what you mean by “tolerance goes both ways” in this context, demi. As a gay man I certainly wouldn’t go anywhere that I’m specifically unwanted. By the same token I would hope members of the church you speak of don’t visit West Hollywood armed with baseball bats.

I think the Jesus movement got co-opted by the larger evangelical movement, which was co-opted by the Republican party.

Preach it, brother.

Could Lonnie have begun that process? I gather he wasn’t a hypocrite like Ted Haggard — denouncing gays from the pulpit and speed-dialing hustlers in his off hours. That’s the stuff that REALLY burns me.

It’s been my experience that people who were raised in a home where they felt loved and accepted, didn’t turn so far away from the values their families held.
I’m not surprised that a lot of hippies turned into evangelical rightwingers.

I think at the end of his life Lonnie was finally going through an introspective period, one where he started, as best as he could, to see the through-lines between the sexual abuse that had so ravaged him… his daddy issues with these men in whom he sought favor… and whatever demons he had.

Lonnie was a broken guy. The last thing he was was judgmental.

And I think part of his angst with these men was that he saw the damage that they were doing on the flip side. Yes, they might be good at providing that initial handshake introduction between the yearning soul and God… but do they have the capabilities and understanding to teach those people how then to be a good citizen and representative of God in this world.

Unfortunately, for these men, being a man of God means getting the answers to the politicized issues correct. We’re against divorce… we’re against evolution… we’re against gays… we’re against… we’re against…. ad nauseum.

It’s like having someone on your team that doesn’t really understand the plays. Frustrating.

Unitarian Churches encourage gay membership. All people apparently are welcome.

I think the attraction of a very closed and routinized group like some of these evangelical churches are is that they offer a very succinct deliberation of what is right and what is wrong.

Let’s face it, most people don’t want to think. They want someone to think for them, and there are a host of pastors willing to do that for you, especially in those circles.

Instead of teaching young Christians to be responsible thinkers by educating them, they give them a list of do’s and don’t’s and how they should be acting. If you are an uneducated surfer dude from SoCal, it fits perfectly. If you are a thinker, you are going to butt heads after a while.

You can’t question in those systems… people who question are a problem.

How do you think–and DO you think–that the more conservative churches can be brought to a greater acceptance. Or do you think having been aligned with right wing politics as a value partner will keep them less tolerant. Can they turn away from “being offered the world.”

I wouldn’t worry about these people taking baseball bats anywhere. My reference to swinging a lead bat referred to having to work harder to get something accomplished or to learn something. You’ve heard the phrase I hope. I certainly didn’t mean it as violence. Sorry if you read it that way.
All people need to be respected and tolerated. What works for the goose, works for the gander.

Yes, yes and yes.
I could never go to one of those kinds of churches.
I go to a Methodist church where most people strive to have Open Minds and Open Hearts. There are a few who don’t understand.
If I called them hypocritical bigots, I’d be skating on the thin ice of judgement.

I think that once people meet someone who is gay and honest, their whole demeanor changes.

Most kids are brought into interaction with people at school.

The people who will continue to have those problems of exclusivity will be those who continue to build motes around them and theirs; Christian schools, Christian university, Christian milk from Christian cows, etc.

That being said, I am not sure that the Prop 8 decision is borne out of religious bigotry. I think there are some fundamental realities about society that will continue to refute the definition of marriage as anything other than that of a man and a woman.

And you can call that homophobia if you wish, but I don’t think that is what is driving their choice there on that issue.

This is a review of a book by the father of a friend of mine, seems relevant:

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

I can’t recommend to you more highly Mahan Siler’s new book, Exile or Embrace. I purchased the book shortly after meeting Mahan in person at the Alliance of Baptists Convocation in Birmingham, AL, and in one day, I read it cover to cover. Couldn’t put it down! For me, a life-long Baptist, it read like a novel – full of congregational and denominational drama!

Exile or Embrace is an absolute MUST for pastors and congregations beginning the discernment process over becoming welcoming & affirming, and/or joining the Association of Welcoming & Affirming Baptists. Included in the book is a study guide designed for an eight-week study.

Consider the following excerpt (pg. 166) on possible resistance from within a congregation over becoming welcoming & affirming:

Resistance to this conversation may be in the form of questions, such as; “Why bring up a subject best left alone?” “Why now, not later?” You may hear it in statements: “I’m feeling pressured to discuss a topic that is uncomfortable for me.” “This is a political issue and doesn’t belong in the church.” “Even discussing this will legitimize homosexual behavior.” “We’ll lose members over this.” “I don’t have time for this.”

Working with the resistance is a crucial aspect of your leadership. This challenge is true with any proposed change. But talking about sexuality, in particular homosexuality, is very personal and private. The resistance will likely be pronounced.

Exile or Embrace is available at http://www.Amazon.com. Mahan Siler is happy to serve as a coach for pastors or lay people working through the discernment process

What do you think of the split in the Episcopal church? Do you see this spreading to other faiths?

If I am not mistaken, in California where I live, gay couples have all the rights that we do under the law.

Has society changed?

I watched MILK last night and they began the movie with footage of homosexuals in the 1950s being rounded up and put into jail. In the 1960s the police would routinely beat them.

Now there is advocation of almost every right that any couple has.

Has it changed? You tell me if society has become more tolerant.

My question to those that are gay… are you tolerant of those who disagree with you?

David, thy may have the same state rights, but there are 1139 federal rights that when Defense of Marriage Act is repealed (which Obama has promised), they will NOT be entitled to…that is a major issue.

Wel I would call it bigotry. And that’s because the Californai Supreme Court Decision madelast May granting same-sex mariage rights would have no affect whatsoever on any religion opposed to same-sex marriage. Are Baptists required to marry Jewish couples in a Jewish ceremony? Of course not. Therefore if these Baptists are opposed to same sex marriage they wouldn’t have to perform them, and wouldn’t be penalized in any way shape or form for not doing so. Same with the LDS and any other church.

So why are they interfering with something outside themselevs? Bigotry — pure and simple.

At a Catholic Mass yesterday, the Priest – a closeted gay man in my estimation – announced an anti-abortion rally. I thought about participating as a mole. There be a fine line between the separation of Church and State.

The good news is that there have been no Candidate Questionaires dispensed (courtesy of the Orlando Florida Diocese) since 2006. These were Republican favoring “voter information guides”.

The first question boldly postioned at the top of the page was:

Would you support legislation that would fund the destruction of a human embryo?

And that is the arguement for civil marriage equality. as you know without a civil license, the Pope or Pat Robertson could perform a wedding ceremony a pair of heterosexuals, and it would not be a legal marriage…

OT but movie related. The following link will allow anyone to view the movie “WMD” about the false intelligence that was used to justify the invasion of Iraq. It will only be available until 12/09/08. A fictionalization based on the facts.

http://www.dailymotion.com/us/…..shortfilms

Pass it around. It’s the film they don’t want you to see.

Was this more than a Kumbayah “Feeling Good about Jesus” Movement?

Did it depart from the Standard Doctrine of its Host Churches in any meaningful way?

For instance, was the Spirit of Jesus to be found in your own heart, or waited upon until He and his 5,000 Defamation Lawyers Came Back?

Not every right. As the California State Supreme court noted in its decision “Domestic Partnership” is in no way shape or form equivalent to marriage. It grants only a very small fraction of the rights that marraige has. Wanting samesex marriage is not about a word. It’s about deeds.

Yes things have changed significantly. Glad you saw Milk. And I’m glad Gus began the film with that footage. I’m old enough to remember when that was the “norm.”

Well… I don’t have a dog in that fight, so, I can’t say that I know the issues.

For me, Lonnie’s story speaks to the way the church deals with people. And for that, I can speak. It is a tragedy when the church, the apparent representative of God on earth, sends the message that someone is not welcome or inferior.

I know churches where gays are welcomed openly. I loved being at Glide Memorial in San Francisco. The vibe there was amazing. But I also know that there aren’t a lot of churches like that.

Government is an entirely different ball of wax.

Wow, we are winding down now…david, thank you for being here! Frisbee, Life and death of a Hippie Preacher is available at lonniefrisbee.com NAd you can contact your locla PBS station and urge them to show it again!

dugg

(pardon my typos!)

David, THANK YOU!!!

Thanks Lisa and all. Enjoyed it.

I’m not a believer, although having come out of a strongly Southern Baptist background, and have difficulties dealing with the issues of some particular person being given “gifts from God” over anyone else. But my experiences are such that people of many faiths DO accept this happening to some people…the prophet, the saint, the seer, the shaman.

I’ll accept that people thought this of Lonnie. What I’m interested in is how the “Jesus Movement” was shaped and transformed. I grew up in Southern California about this time and was regularly approached by young strangers who worked very hard to seduce me into their groups. And I’m not afraid to use that term “seduce”…frequently it was a young female who would “come on” quite heavily about coming over to “The House”. And in some of these groups sex and drugs were NOT taboo. Children of God, Maranatha, the People’s Temple and the Moonies (as well as other religious groups that appealed to disaffected youth…like the Hari Krishna) were everywhere. In fact, you practically needed a support-group to avoid their clutches.

I don’t see many of these groups out there that are communally-based, communitarian, accept scaled-down lifestyles (rejecting affluence), and are generally rejectionist of political involvement anymore. All, or most, of these groups have been absorbed or transformed into organizations that accept “Affluence Doctrine”, and are actively involved in political activities. I suppose this was present quite early, because by the post-Nixon era the People’s Temple, Maranatha (with the Young Republicans), and Reverend Moon were building alliances with politicians.

Do you have any impression that Lonnie had interest in such things…and is this where the divisions actually lay…rather than with the issue of his homosexuality?

“If I am not mistaken, in California where I live, gay couples have all the rights that we do under the law.”

Try putting down that you are married on your income tax form. A domestic partnership will not get you those tax breaks.