But Aharon Leshno Yaar, Israel’s Ambassador to the U.N. in Geneva, told the Universal Periodic Review (UPR) session there was a “certain sense of pride at the culture of human rights that we have managed to develop in the six short decades since the founding of our state”.

Yeah, like the culture of pride of human rights instilled by the Nazis for non-Aryans.

petri dish. test tube genocide.

Are the ’super-soldiers’ of tomorrow to be found at the Gamer conventions of today?

The video from Ha’aretz is quite a trip - so lighthearted about girls sitting a mile away happily shooting folks … nothing says more to me about how wrong the whole situation is …

meanwhile, Gazans starve

Scary, ain’t it?

Israel is a mistake. It needs to be fixed. But religious nutcases are in the way. And of course people are dying for nothing but real estate.

Absolutely disgusting. Has ICE ordered some of these units for the US-Mexico border yet?

well, I guess it would make Basic Training obsolete. They’ve been doing it their whole lives…

We could transfer the money we spend on military aid to Israel to an agency set up by our government to help homeowners stay out of foreclosure.

Thanks, Siun. Is any aid arriving via Egypt?

You can digg this post right here, fire dogs.

Nope - not from Egypt.

And Israel is using its Navy to block ships from other countries trying to bring in essential supplies.

I want to find a theatre company somewhere willing to put on “My Name is Rachel Corie.” Once that gets going we can have a real discussion in this country over the behaviour of Israel towards Arabs. Now all we get is people like Alan Dershowitz calling anyone criticizing Israel anti-Semitic, which on its face is an incorrect labeling and dishonest. Dishonest because it’s used to halt discussion/criticism.

I cannot post on this site my sentiments about Israel.

Meanwhile, in Hebron, this and this (both from McClatchy’s wonderful Dion Nissenbaum). The shorter version: extremist settlers in Hebron (evicted today) have started Operation Price Tag, committing acts of arson and assault against Palestinians, defiling cemeteries and fighting Israeli soldiers (one had acid thrown in his face today, per Haaretz).

Thank you, Siun, for your abiding efforts.

Have you got any idea how difficult it is for me to walk the line here? *g*

Some stats regarding the Gaza Strip from Wikipedia.

population: 1,482,405 (July ‘07 estimate)
area: 360 sq kilometers (130 sq miles)
pop density: 4,118 per sq km (10,665 per sq mi)
per capita income: $600 (US)

I think you just did.

It’s been a while:

International Red Cross, Red Crescent Societies
(You could specify OPT or Iraq or…. to receive your donation).

There’s no walking the line. The line is very obvious. As well as the right side.

All in the name of their god.

Psychosis on a mass scale. I’m beginning to think that atheism is the only solution to drastically reduce killing in the world. Sure, people will always find reasons to fight and kill each other, but it would be greatly reduced without “religious warfare” (what a fucked up concept anyway).

Jeezus, this is messed up.

thanks for posting those stats …

750,000 Gazans rely for their food on UN aid and it’s now been a month that the UN is not able to bring in the needed supplies.

Hey is this Like Chicks With Dicks that shoot Bullets instead of that other Stuff? /S

I have cut off a few Jewish acquaintances over this issue. The last one, related to the bombing of Lebanese Shia, typed to me: Well, then, have cocktails with Hizballah.

pop density: 4,118 per sq km (10,665 per sq mi)

The 2007 population density of Washington DC was 9581.3 per square mile.

I’d like to type it in simple declarative sentences in words of one syllable, but would get moderated if I did. Glad yall can read between the lines.

Imagine if Washington DC was deprived of food and medicine for a single day…

Does the DC density include the yachts?

No. Not psychosis. That’s what’s so chilling. These people are fully sane. Most people who kill are, by far.

Psychosis on a mass scale

worse.

evil.

The Funny thing is it is the SAME God that they pray to!!! I mean they all trace their roots to Abraham don’t they? Started in Baghdad no less… It sure is fucked up this fighting for this land. Of course this land has always been fought over since there was any recorded history!! Seems all mankind is wired for a God of some = kind although you do have those who rebel against that wiring!

Well, then, have cocktails with Hizballah.

Quite telling, given the Muslim attitude towards alcohol. Like Robert Fisk, however, I would be more than willing to sit down and have tea with Hizballah. Or Hamas.

The U.S. is actively aiding and abetting a genocide in progress. I have not heard anything from our president-elect which makes me optimistic that he intends to change our current policy, i.e. unconditional support of Israel.

then consider that Gaza has been under a blockade for two years which has only been worsened this past month. This leads to even worse problems - for example, the power plants are in dreadful shape and in need of repairs and spare parts which have not been allowed in for years - now with the on/off cycles due to lack of fuel from the full blockade, they break down entirely.

And power is not just kids doing homework by candlelight but electricity for sanitation and hospitals.

It is inexplicable how much misery the Israelis impose upon the Palestinians… And have the gall to say that the Extremists of Hamas and Fatah force them to do it…! 8-(

i don’t think you are alone.

and it’s not just the israelis - no way could this be happening without political and economic support from us.

… trying to remember the brave israelis who are fighting this. that they are loosing is a tragedy.

That’s why I went looking for US density figures. A little perspective never hurts.

i don’t think it’s about religion. it’s about the land and religion is the justification. that’s my take anyway.

Heh. Didn’t think about it that way. But you’re right. I’ve been exposed to a few Jewish wingnuts (most of my Jewish friend are not), so it would be very educational if I could have tea with a few Palestinians, even the wingnut variety. Just to provide balance.

ot - for ecahn. i’m typing up some notes on yesterday’s book salon if you are going to be around…. and still want to discuss (maybe some later thread today or tomorrow).

I’d agree - religion is used as an excuse for very basic power grabs.

The Krugman salon…?

Someone told me on a prior thread, when I indicated that not all Israelis thing that way, that I was nuts. So while I understand that not all Israelis think all Palestinians should be exterminated, since their govt does, I draw my conclusions. Just as fairly as other countries drew their conclusions about the U.S. after W was elected.

don’t know about gaza but never saw any tea in the west bank. very strong coffee served in a demitasse.

You can email. I’ve had a lot of thoughts and feedback afterwards also.

Suin - do you know of any organizations like Gorilla’s Guides within Palestine? eCAHN gave me an idea. If there’s a blog, or any connection, we could sit down to a virtual tea with Palestinians. I would LOVE to talk to a resistance fighter.

Works for me. I dig Arabian coffee.

Heh. LAT reporter on Rachel sez Obama got donations cause folks agreed with him. Or maybe cause he fooled all of the peeps some of the time.

It has been my understanding that there is actually more discussion and criticism of Israeli policy by the MSM in Israel than there is by the MSM here.

Realnews article about the Gaza blockade raises questions about the sewage treatment plant. It’s falling apart–heavy rains could mean raw sewage in the streets….and the potential for cholera. Video

i’ve seen an israeli jew stand in front of an idf soldier when he was pointing his gun at some palestinian kids (a few of them had picked up stones to throw). hard to forget that kind of thing. oh, and there was a german woman standing with her.

Gush Shalom - one of the Israeli peace groups - recommends that folks send letters to the editor at the following papers: http://www.avnery-news.co.il/english/index.html

Nothing from me. Just fulminating by myself.

ok. will do.

Great idea - let me see if I can arrange something for us.

Thanks!

The Baha’is of Israel think the madness should be stopped, and, it does house our Universal House of Justice, in Haifa…! ;-)

Our company employs several Palestinians. You wanna talk to them? Nice fellas.

Raising the age old Q of whether lip serice is better than no service at all. I though the response to my comment was related to the fact that the sensible Israelis have no power and we should just stop covering our ears with lalalalala, and recognize reality.

There is a huge peace movement in Israel but they are powerless. Just like we, SPFP et al, are. Doesn’t do much good when those in power look at you and say “Fuck you.”

yes. didn’t want to put it on the salon thread. we’re supposed to be extra polite there.

I don’t know that it would be appropriate for the Lake. I would imagine that there would be some things said that would be moderated here and I, for one, would like to avoid that.

Heh, I definitely know that tune… Having been moderated on a few so far…! ;-)

See my 58. The point being there is no effective progressive movement in Israel since miltarism has made them “safe.”

I know some Palestinians but I want to talk with some folks who are on the ground now and have been on the ground. And I particularly want to talk with some folks directly involved in the resistance.

However, I don’t think Siun would moderate me…! Right, Siun? *g*

I’d just point out that we’ve been covering the blockade of Gaza over the past few weeks and we’ll continue to do so.

That is what I was thinking of replying to your 58. I don’t know that citizens of Israel live in a perpetual state of fear but suspect there is a steady undercurrent of paranoia.

I understand that and there have been times when some of those threads were on the verge. There was more than one occasion when I had to stick my fist in my mouth, figuratively, at comments made by apologists.

Do you follow the Uruknet feeds…? Tireless and fearless in their coverage of Gaza etal…! ;-)

Paranoia is the right word for Isralis since the probality of being caught in a terrorist attack is deminimus.

Hey CT .. I’m looking more to several Palestinian news sources … uruknet has a lot but I have some concerns on reliability. I particularly like the Palestine Monitor - http://www.palestinemonitor.org/spip/

my impression is that it’s not so huge anymore. :(

There have certainly been a lot of attacks on Israeli civilians - though many more on Palestinians. I think the real issue is the choice of the Israeli government - seemingly from all major parties - to continually provoke Palestinians and then use that as an excuse for further oppression.

Returning to the original topic of the post for a moment.

The Israel Defense Forces has found a way to target Gaza Strip terrorists from kilometers away, with just three pushes of a button.

Is the underlying assumption that all residents of the Gaza Strip are terrorists, or only those unfortunate enough to wander into range of the surveillance cameras? In any event, I doubt if time is spent attempting to discern the actual intentions of a targeted individual.

I agree… their bias is skewed, but, there’s a lot of kernels of truth that can be discerned…! 8-)

How about Electronic Intifada

i like electronic intifada and ism.

i think it’s a most unfortunate situation .. both sides of the issue have been forced into a given slot because of the bad actions of a minority amongst them ..

so at what point do the “good and fine people” on both sides banish the bad eggs amongst themselves before we get to the “one tin soldier rides away ” point ??

same could be said for the muslim community .. at what point do the braod overwhelming majority of peaceful decent folk cease to allow an obscurantist salafist minority to hijack their perfectly peaceful religion and put the rest of them in the bullsquirt ..

esentially the israelis have no where to go .. nor do the palestinians .. and so far as i recall i’ve never heard the israelis swear publically that the palestinains should be wiped off the face of the earth .. but i have heard that sentiment expressed by some of the more radical palestinians ..

now it may well be that israeli actions speak a more fundamental truth than “not vocalizing” the opposite assertion ..

i don’t support the radicals on either side .. but i also don’t see where the israelis should simply lie down and allow their throats to be cut either ..

WHAT ..exactly is the solution to the problem when the polarizations exist as they are ..and they have been ?? i understand a serious problem exists .. i just don’t see a ready solution unless/until the story lines of both sets of bad actors amongst each group can be changed to something other than mutual destruction ..

it is so intractable .. in my experience .. that i long ago concluded that i don’t have or know or see a solution to the problem ..

okay .. now you can all pounce …

Attacks on Israelis? Name one. The rockets from Gaza have hit how many? And could those few have been presented by a dmz?

i think i owe you a demitasse of v strong sweet black coffee.

I have been watching this for six years. I am still in a sort of shock that my country has and is supporting Israel. I am even more shocked, disgusted, furious that the US supports Israel and their actions, not because they have any value to the the US as an ally, quite the opposite as a matter of fact, but soley because of “domestic political concerns”…the Jews and the Jewish Lobby.

I can’t describe the fury I feel about this issue…it disgust me beyond words.

I don’t want to hear any more from the Jews, the hawks or the doves, the zionist, the Israelis, the evangelical cult, the realist, the diplomats and most of all I don’t want to hear any more “black is white”, “wrong is right” Orwellington bull s**h from our treasonous Israeli centric congress, the Jews in our congress or anyone else. I don’t want to hear US presidential candidates stand up and pledge alleigence to a foreign country for jewish money and votes and vow to use every ounce of American blood and treasure to support a midget nazi country engaged in an illegal occupation and a slow motion genocide.

If anyone on here is “Pro Israel’ don’t bother responding to me with any of the usual jewish and Israeli myth and crapola. I have been thru this issue with a fine tooth comb from top to bottom, from the actual historical documents of 1918 to 1967 on Zionism, Israel in the British National Archives, thru every Presidential Library since Truman, to every report on Israel ordered by congress and the CIA and NIS in the entire Library of Congress. I kept looking for some reason, some justification, something, anything, to prove to me that my country, my government wasn’t just supporting this rouge country and their genocidal sickness and greed for land and resources purely because of the “political” pressure from US jews.
But in fact that is the sole and only reason we support Israel.

All you need to know about Israel is that everything you have been told, propagandized into is a lie. All of it.

This Israeli “fetish” in our US government is a cancer eating away at everything we “thought” America stood for and it has made us complict in everything that is happening in Palestine…that happened in Lebanon and will probably continue to happen. It has slimed whatever good name America had once upon a time and lost us any respect we ever had from 90% of the rest of the universe.

There is no more America, all we have is an international shopping bazzare in DC where anyone with 30 pieces of silver can buy themselves a congressman, a president, a war, or a billion dollar aid package in US taxpayer’s money…just slip your dollars thru any congressional campaign cashiers window and pick up your package.

This abomination will end when either American goes bankrupt and can no longer support itself much less Israel, which is very likely, or some enterprizing terrier blows Israel to hell.

I am fine with either of those options….It’s time for America and true Americans to end this excuse for a government and this pitiful excuse “for representation of the people’ and start over.

We could start by dropping the political correctness and the holocuast and anti semitism gobblygock used for Israeli fund raising and tiptoeing around the jewish issue and start calling a spade a spade, a genocide a genocide and a traitor a traitor…and for that look no further than the political system our congress has set up for themselves and I mean ‘for themselves’, not for governing this country.

If you want to see what happens when a government convinces the people there is no such thing as Truth…take a look at the us and Israel.

no pouncing… just an observation that i don’t see the word “occupation” in your comment.

Kewl! Bookmarked! ;-)

Hugs and kisses…! Handshake, SD…! ;-)

It’s always about religion–religion in the mid-east and the near-east and the US and Australia and Africa and South America and Italy and Egypt and many other places makes people crazy. Israel has made billions on war and surveillance and “security.” If you haven’t already, read The Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein–disaster capitalists are the same the world over. They hate people. Now if you take this to its logical extreme, if they kill all the poor and the (formerly) middle class, then the weapons pimps can do what exactly? Eat their young?

both sides of the issue have been forced into a given slot because of the bad actions of a minority amongst them ..

Name a “good” Israeli in an official position.

IMO, Israel is completely in charge because of their power. Just like the U.S. is to blame for all the blowback that our power plays create.

I see no signs that Israel give a FF about blowback. As near as I can tell, the Israelis think the more Palestinians they kill, one way or another, the better.

My son’s APUS History teacher, an otherwise sensible woman, in response to an email from me (showing how long ago it was), pointing out that the Israelis killed 3 innocent Palestinians for every 1 Israeli (ratio is probably over 10:1 today) responded: what innocent Palestinians?

I think some Jews have learned only too well from the Nazis.

It occurs to me that the military forces of Israel are occupying Palestinian land, not the other way round. If a foreign country were occupying my country I’d be doing all I could to provide maximum opportunity to the occupier to give his life for his cause.

Religion has nothing to do with it. It is about control and the evil of power.

Ma’am, let’s pause and reflect on the casuality ratio between P/I losses… It is wildly skewed in favor of the Israelis… Are Tel Aviv hospitals lacking for basic meds…?

i actually disagree with much of your explanation - to me it looks more like a military vassal state and the collective trauma of the holocaust is manipulated and used as cover.

but that’s only a working hypothesis. no conclusive evidence to offer - just another take.

smooches back at you CT!

Huh? Give me the stats, plz. And if Israelis didn’t make themselves deliberate targets, i.e. moved out of range of the deranged Hamas rockets, what would the causualties be?

Spot on, chum. Let’s go sit under that shady olive tree.

Sorry, olive tree just cut down by Israel. Coffee shop closed owing to economic misfortunes. And anyone sitting in the open in Gaza is subject to extrajudicial assassination.

lovely. although i don’t remember ever drinking coffee out of doors. hope it’s not considered impolite of something.

Heh, Israelis made themselves deliberate targets…? You’re missing the point… Credible numbers have put it at 200:1, however, even if it was much lower like 50:1 it’d still be grisly…! 8-(

i more agree with carrol up there at 81 boyz and gurls .. i don’t have a dog in this fight .. i just don’t claim to have an answer ..i’m not supporting or condeming either side in this quagmire .. but i can testify that when shrapnel is flying anywhere near you .. one’s sense of the phiosophical flies out your ass …

if anyone has a solution to the problem short of the “cowboys and indians” i’d be interested in hearing it ..

but don’t shoot me boyz i’m just the piano player ..

oh, if the olive tree was cut down, then it was dug up as well. you see, the trees can live for a couple of thousand years and the roots can be replanted. i understand they sell well in tel aviv.

no joke.

Guess I’m more familiar with the old time Bedouin.

the only “solution” that i am now able to support is some kind of bi-national state. in this i am guided by israeli and palestinian peace activists. halper and abunimah each have their take, but i think they need not be mutually exclusive.

How ironic. Olive roots, the basis of the olive branch, sell well in Tel Aviv.

ah, of course! excellent.

edit - basis foundation

Do they have date palms in Palestine?

in gaza i understand there are (or were) a alot. don’t remember seeing any, but i was in the west bank olive territory for the harvest (some years ago)

How do they compare with Spanish olives?

don’t know. i’ve never been to spain :(

Ditto, eCAHN.
best stay quiet, read and learn.
that’s my ‘tude.
*sigh*

That makes us even. I’ve never been to Palestine. I know people who’ve never been out of this state and have never had any desire to do so. Sad.

oh, i would love to spend months traveling. so many places to go and people to meet. sigh. in my dreams.

thank you selise for that civil response .. this is a very emotionally charged issue ..

i’ve been watching this issue for over 40 years as an adult ..and i have absolte no idea how to “stop the crazy”

and to mr e-chan-nomics .. i’d rejoin .. can you name me one “good actor” in our gub’mint at the moment ?? i’m no more influential in US or israeli or palestinian policy than i am in terms of our “policy” in iraq .. are you sir ?? when fully 85% of the citizens of this country have been saying “stop the war iraq” since 2005 ..and we’re still ass deep .. i can easily see how “others” can be caught on the same flypaper .. on both sides of the fence ..

You are entiteled to your opinion.

But I deal only in facts.

And those are the facts.

If you are interested in this issue you could do your own research as I have done or you could wait and confirm my conclusion when you read about it years from now when history and historians examine the issue of the Israeli abberration in the US government.

If you don’t want to go thru 12 volumes on zionism and ME history and Israel and Palestine in the British archives…just start with what US presidents have had to say about Israel and the jewish lobby in their private papers.

http://www.eisenhowermemorial......s/2063.cfm

Of course, nothing in the region would be so difficult to solve except for the underlying cause of the unrest and dissension that exists there–that is, the Arab-Israel quarrel. This quarrel seems to have no limit in either intensity or in scope. Everybody in the Moslem and Jewish worlds is affected by it. It is so intense that the second any action is taken against one Arab state, by an outsider, all the other Arab and Moslem states seem to regard it as a Jewish plot and react violently. All this complicates the situation enormously.

As we began to uncover evidence that something was building up in Israel, we demanded pledges from Ben-Gurion that he would keep the peace.10

We realized that he might think he could take advantage of this country because of the approaching election and because of the importance that so many politicians in the past have attached to our Jewish vote.

I gave strict orders to the State Department that they should inform Israel that we would handle our affairs exactly as though we didn’t have a Jew in America.

The welfare and best interests of our own country were to be the sole criteria on which we operated.11 “

And this is the mildest of what many of them have had to say in private about Israel and their lobby.

I feel so sad for the Jewish people of my childhood/early adulthood back in the 60’s-70’s. They were so full of hope for Israel. Sending their sons and daughters to become soldiers for solidarity. A proud new State.
Survivors of Auschwitz, members of the French Resistance,Russian jews who were pediatricians, working for a catering company in Denver during the height of the oil boom. Making appetizers and washing dishes with the dream of Israel in their hearts for their children and grandchildren.
What a nightmare that’s become.
I am so sorry Hilda, Frieda,Sophie and all you incredibly strong women.
I’m so sorry your dreams of community were put in the hands of cold-hearted bastards. The dreams of farms, family-safe-forever, communal productivity….the dream of Israel.
The death of Palenstine.

The welfare and best interests of our own country were to be the sole criteria on which we operated. “

excellent sentiment .. but we didn’t ply that course .. unfortunately ..

how long has it been since there was true “peace” in the ME ??

a long long time .. since the crusades ??

oops .. hit submit in error ..

the crusades can’t be the marker .. “something” happened to cause the “crusade” .. so how long ??

i’m not challenging any of your facts. only that i have a different interpretation. i don’t think what you call a fact below is actually a fact - i think it’s a conclusion based on the facts you have analyzed:

I kept looking for some reason, some justification, something, anything, to prove to me that my country, my government wasn’t just supporting this rouge country and their genocidal sickness and greed for land and resources purely because of the “political” pressure from US jews.

But in fact that is the sole and only reason we support Israel.

i don’t see how you can say there is no other reason based only on that you haven’t found evidence on one.

again, not saying you are wrong. only that i have a different interpretation (although i am far from certain of it) and that what you claim as fact is your conclusion.)

this is a very emotionally charged issue ..

yes, especially now when there is so much suffering. thanks to you also.

I had read Siun’s entry and the comments thread before making a comment.

Upon seeing that my comment has been taken out without explanation or guidance as to why I would point out upon reviewing above comments again it would have been in alignment with comment numbers 22,33,35,43,81,85 and 87.

I believe my comment was no more fierce in opinion than any of these in single expression or combination of expression.

I consider what is taking place in Arab Palestine and in Gaza to be very serious and laden with much danger and death for the defenseless,helpless children and elderly of the West Bank and Gaza. As I believe does Siun.

I am dismayed to see my comment was taken out. Removing comment or site censorship for undisclosed reasons is not what I expected to see practiced at FDL. Who did I offend? What was written that was not within the range of prior comments made in above thread?

I have been visiting FDL for several years. This is a first. A last also.

Have we completed our full Israel hate-on, or is there more to come?

I need a shower.

Every time the Palestinians have been given an opportunity to choose their own state and peace, they have instead chosen war. Time and time again, the people of Gaza have put their faith in violence, and they seem to see no connection between the choices they make and the repercussions of those choices.

The Israelis are not uncivilized people. When they’ve been given the chance to make peace with their neighbors, even when the cost was land concessions, they’ve done so. They unilaterally withdrew from Gaza even though there was no peace agreement, and the Gazans have punished the Israelis for making the first step.

The notion that the Israelis are to blame because they have civilian settlements, in their own unquestioned territory, that is within mortar range of Gaza is revolting. The Israelis are trying to survive. There was a good dovish movement going for several years in the 1990s, which the Palestinians destroyed. Even Israelis who want peace despair of ever getting it because they recognize that in Gaza there is a party, elected by the citizenry, that would murder every Jew in Israel if it could. There is no moral equivalency here. If the Syrians overran Israel their reign would not be restricted to blockades or incursions.

No worse than the Predator unmanned aircraft the US deploys over Afghanistan and probably Iraq. These are controlled from Virginia. The people controlling the weapons know what they are doing, and it really the same situation as high altitude bombers targeting sites by command. Neither the controllers nor the pilots are close enough to really feel engaged with the targets as do foot soldiers. Not ‘Ender’s Game’, but pretty damn close. The Israeli machine gun controllers are a bit closer, but it seems still remote being on video.