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	<title>Comments on: Not Quite a Victory</title>
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	<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/30/not-quite-a-victory/</link>
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		<title>By: T-Bear</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/30/not-quite-a-victory/#comment-1744052</link>
		<dc:creator>T-Bear</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 09:34:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/30/not-quite-a-victory/#comment-1744052</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;addendum:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Sorry Newtonusr, should you find this&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;To avoid unintended insult, the “you” and “yours” are generic, not specific or personal. Like all adults on the advanced side of the generation gap since there was one, the world is going to the dogs in a hand-basket.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;All the best…..&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>addendum:</p>
<p>Sorry Newtonusr, should you find this</p>
<p>To avoid unintended insult, the “you” and “yours” are generic, not specific or personal. Like all adults on the advanced side of the generation gap since there was one, the world is going to the dogs in a hand-basket.</p>
<p>All the best…..</p>
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		<title>By: T-Bear</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/30/not-quite-a-victory/#comment-1744037</link>
		<dc:creator>T-Bear</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 08:44:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/30/not-quite-a-victory/#comment-1744037</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;History will not look kindly upon the US for our destruction of this place, but once we realized the scope of the wrong, we continued to muck about, and in secrecy.&lt;br /&gt;
The grandkids will wonder what we could possibly have been thinking.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Entirely EPU’d&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The Mongol sacking and burning of Bagdad, of the university and the libraries there are not forgotten in Iraq. Now the atrocity of attempted cultural extermination by American barbarians is added to the memories.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;As for “The grandkids”, the trajectory of American education is such that it is more likely your “grandkids” will be dumber than a bag of hammers, completely incapable of such wonder, drooling their way through a miserable, mean existence, comforted solely by “how exceptional” they are, wrapped in their flags for shelter from the cold. In your calculations, never forget this possibility, have a good life…..&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>History will not look kindly upon the US for our destruction of this place, but once we realized the scope of the wrong, we continued to muck about, and in secrecy.<br />
The grandkids will wonder what we could possibly have been thinking.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Entirely EPU’d</p>
<p>The Mongol sacking and burning of Bagdad, of the university and the libraries there are not forgotten in Iraq. Now the atrocity of attempted cultural extermination by American barbarians is added to the memories.</p>
<p>As for “The grandkids”, the trajectory of American education is such that it is more likely your “grandkids” will be dumber than a bag of hammers, completely incapable of such wonder, drooling their way through a miserable, mean existence, comforted solely by “how exceptional” they are, wrapped in their flags for shelter from the cold. In your calculations, never forget this possibility, have a good life…..</p>
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		<title>By: bobschacht</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/30/not-quite-a-victory/#comment-1743989</link>
		<dc:creator>bobschacht</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 07:18:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/30/not-quite-a-victory/#comment-1743989</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;“…adding the voting was conducted before reading out the items of the agreement.”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Oh, nice. Is this one of Humpty Dumpty’s lines? “First the vote, THEN the debate. Everything in proper order.”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;This is how we are teaching them Democracy, right?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Who’s in charge of the curriculum? Tom Delay? Newt Gingrich?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Thanks, Siun!&lt;br /&gt;
Bob in HI&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“…adding the voting was conducted before reading out the items of the agreement.”</p>
<p>Oh, nice. Is this one of Humpty Dumpty’s lines? “First the vote, THEN the debate. Everything in proper order.”</p>
<p>This is how we are teaching them Democracy, right?</p>
<p>Who’s in charge of the curriculum? Tom Delay? Newt Gingrich?</p>
<p>Thanks, Siun!<br />
Bob in HI</p>
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		<title>By: TheLurkingMod</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/30/not-quite-a-victory/#comment-1743884</link>
		<dc:creator>TheLurkingMod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 05:02:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/30/not-quite-a-victory/#comment-1743884</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Elliott has a diary!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/2100&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;One Last Thing for Bush To Do&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Elliott has a diary!<br /><a href="http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/2100" rel="nofollow">One Last Thing for Bush To Do</a></p>
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		<title>By: TheLurkingMod</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/30/not-quite-a-victory/#comment-1743855</link>
		<dc:creator>TheLurkingMod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 04:04:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/30/not-quite-a-victory/#comment-1743855</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Teddy is upstairs!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/30/we-loved-her-way-back-when/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;We Loved Her Way Back When&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Teddy is upstairs!<br /><a href="http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/30/we-loved-her-way-back-when/" rel="nofollow">We Loved Her Way Back When</a></p>
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		<title>By: lokywoky</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/30/not-quite-a-victory/#comment-1743853</link>
		<dc:creator>lokywoky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 03:24:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/30/not-quite-a-victory/#comment-1743853</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Yeah, it’s just the little details. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;The US will turn over to the Iraq government all permanent buildings free and clear of any debt or obligation.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Okay.  So what’s to stop us from detonating a bomb in it just before we hand it over.  And when exactly does this hand-over occur (it really does not say).  Turn it over to al-Maliki?  The military?  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Details, details.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, it’s just the little details. </p>
<blockquote><p>The US will turn over to the Iraq government all permanent buildings free and clear of any debt or obligation.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Okay.  So what’s to stop us from detonating a bomb in it just before we hand it over.  And when exactly does this hand-over occur (it really does not say).  Turn it over to al-Maliki?  The military?  </p>
<p>Details, details.</p>
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		<title>By: eCAHNomics</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/30/not-quite-a-victory/#comment-1743852</link>
		<dc:creator>eCAHNomics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 03:20:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/30/not-quite-a-victory/#comment-1743852</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Seems par for the course if the U.S. wrote it. Sounds like a Bremer document.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seems par for the course if the U.S. wrote it. Sounds like a Bremer document.</p>
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		<title>By: shootthatarrow</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/30/not-quite-a-victory/#comment-1743851</link>
		<dc:creator>shootthatarrow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 03:19:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/30/not-quite-a-victory/#comment-1743851</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Any view of there being a “victory” in Iraq for Americans surley misreads what WashingtonDC thought it could “win” by attacking and mounting this unsustainable “occupation of Iraq” from the start.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Iraq is a hotbed of religous,sectarian and tribal mixes and blends that is not about to submit to WashingtonDC and American desires to control West Asian petro markets or the politics of American dominance in West Asia.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Perhaps if WashingtonDC could screw up to the levels of garrison troop counts and sheer ruthlessness of repression Iraq occupation by Americans could be done. But WashingtonDC has not the fortitude of driven desire needed to complete that position. Americans would have to yield any remaining claims to moral and ethical position on international stage.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;This SOFA the Americans have pushed on al-Maliki who in turn has pushed on Iraqis has several expiration dates on it. Jan.20,2009 is one. November of 2010 is another. Those are the American expiration dates. The Iraqi expiration dates are much more elastic. Much more.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;WashingtonDC cannot spend or kill enough to “win” in Iraq.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;There is no victory to be won. WashingtonDC will be constrained by the cost of it. By the blood of it. By the ruthless and brutal depths of it.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Getting in was so easy. Staying to occupy was the stupid thing to do.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Getting out will likely not come on American terms or desires.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;WashingtonDC may not like it. Too bad.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Any view of there being a “victory” in Iraq for Americans surley misreads what WashingtonDC thought it could “win” by attacking and mounting this unsustainable “occupation of Iraq” from the start.</p>
<p>Iraq is a hotbed of religous,sectarian and tribal mixes and blends that is not about to submit to WashingtonDC and American desires to control West Asian petro markets or the politics of American dominance in West Asia.</p>
<p>Perhaps if WashingtonDC could screw up to the levels of garrison troop counts and sheer ruthlessness of repression Iraq occupation by Americans could be done. But WashingtonDC has not the fortitude of driven desire needed to complete that position. Americans would have to yield any remaining claims to moral and ethical position on international stage.</p>
<p>This SOFA the Americans have pushed on al-Maliki who in turn has pushed on Iraqis has several expiration dates on it. Jan.20,2009 is one. November of 2010 is another. Those are the American expiration dates. The Iraqi expiration dates are much more elastic. Much more.</p>
<p>WashingtonDC cannot spend or kill enough to “win” in Iraq.</p>
<p>There is no victory to be won. WashingtonDC will be constrained by the cost of it. By the blood of it. By the ruthless and brutal depths of it.</p>
<p>Getting in was so easy. Staying to occupy was the stupid thing to do.</p>
<p>Getting out will likely not come on American terms or desires.</p>
<p>WashingtonDC may not like it. Too bad.</p>
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		<title>By: lokywoky</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/30/not-quite-a-victory/#comment-1743850</link>
		<dc:creator>lokywoky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 03:18:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/30/not-quite-a-victory/#comment-1743850</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I was also shocked when I read the ‘copy’ that McClatchy has at how short it is.  It’s only 24 pages - in size 18 font and 1.5 spacing and huge margins.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I’ve seen military high-level documents before (which this technically is) and this thing reads like something a bunch of college kids made up in Freshman Comp 101.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was also shocked when I read the ‘copy’ that McClatchy has at how short it is.  It’s only 24 pages &#8211; in size 18 font and 1.5 spacing and huge margins.</p>
<p>I’ve seen military high-level documents before (which this technically is) and this thing reads like something a bunch of college kids made up in Freshman Comp 101.</p>
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		<title>By: lokywoky</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/30/not-quite-a-victory/#comment-1743849</link>
		<dc:creator>lokywoky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 03:16:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/30/not-quite-a-victory/#comment-1743849</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;No wonder no one knows what it says - even in the language of the person looking at whatever version they have.  It has been translated so many times it has lost all meaning.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No wonder no one knows what it says &#8211; even in the language of the person looking at whatever version they have.  It has been translated so many times it has lost all meaning.</p>
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