Time to kick in on the debate on ideology vs. pragmatism, with a harsh rejoinder: there is no pragmatism, there is only ideology. It is impossible to think without beliefs as to what the world is like, about how things work, and those beliefs are part of ideology, broadly understood.
Ideology is both about how things work and about how things should work. It is, in two words, "world view". When decisions are made on pragmatic grounds about political and social actions, they always carry with them embedded ideological assumptions. If you are a liberal Keynesian of the old school you have different assumptions about what makes an economy work, about what acceptable policies are, about how policies work in the real world and so on. As a simple example, the creators of Rubinomics in the 90′s thought that financial deregulation would release firms to innovate (they were right) and that market mechanisms and self-interest would keep them from destroying themselves (they were wrong.)
Now one might say "Larry Summers et al have learned their lessons", and in a sense that’s right. They now understand that some regulation is necessary, and are talking about putting it in place. Yet, at the same time, none of them are talking about reinstating the majority of Glass-Steagall. None of them are seriously talking about getting rid of the entire executive class of failed companies. None of them are really seriously looking at the compensation of executives and saying "as long as they can make this much money in only a few years executives will have no incentive to stop creating bubbles, therefore we have to take away their ability to make that much money."
Why not? Because they believe that high taxes are bad for the economy, which is why they and Obama are going to drop taxes and not raise them on the rich. This is an ideological belief on their part, there is evidence both for and against it (the 50′s and 60′s, when the US had the highest marginal tax rates were very good times for most people) and whether you believe in highly progressive taxation is an ideological decision.
But it’s also a pragmatic question. They believe it doesn’t work, classic Liberals believe it does work.
There are economic models that can be used to justify both beliefs, though the experience of the US during the tax cutting period certainly argues against the models that say trickle down economics work and high tax rates on the rich are bad.
Ideology in this sense is about having a coherent world view that fits together. It is not just about morality, it is about a model of the world that tells you what works, and what doesn’t. It is about pragmatism. This is not airy fairy stuff, it’s because of ideology that people like me could say back when Glass-Steagall was repealed that it was bad, because we knew that markets can’t regulate themselves—that’s an ideological belief. It’s because of ideology that people like me can say "taxing the rich is the right thing to do both pragmatically and morally".
Ideology is how we think. Even cold cost-benefit analyses have huge amounts of ideology in them. After all, cost-benefit analyses were done on Credit Default Swaps, and mortgage backed securities and so on. And they were all wrong, because they made the wrong assumptions. A true classical liberal, who believes that financial markets are prone to bubbles and that business can’t be trusted to regulate itself; a liberal who believes that executives are self serving, would have known otherwise. (When did it become we liberals who were the cynics who knew that you couldn’t give businessmen a license to steal and expect them not to do so?)
Your ends, your means and your cold hard cost-benefits analyses of actions all are heavily informed by ideology. The worst fools in the world are those who think they don’t have an ideology. Keynes once noted
“The ideas of economists and political philosophers, both when they are right and when they are wrong, are more powerful than is commonly understood. Indeed the world is ruled by little else. Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.”
An ideology is never more powerfully held than when it is held by some fool who thinks they have no ideology. As with psychological traumas and tics, if you won’t acknowledge your ideology, you will be ruled by it. Only by knowing you have an ideology can you understand where and when your ideology doesn’t work.
Bringing this back to the current political situation, nothing is stupider than the current mantra that ideology doesn’t matter and that Obama is hiring for pragmatic competence. The people he is hiring, with some exceptions, were wrong on the Iraq war, wrong on regulation and wrong on the housing bubble. They were wrong because their ideology did not allow them to be right. Even now, when they see their ideology has failed, unless they truly switch ideologies, they will have great difficulty in implementing the truly liberal policies the current situation requires, because they are not liberals and do not understand liberalism.
What their ideology is, then, is the ultimate pragmatic indicator of how successful they will be. Having the wrong ideology, the wrong beliefs about what works and what doesn’t; about what is moral and immoral; about what ends are legitimate and illegitimate, will have significant pragmatic effects on the success of policies they implement.
(Daniel deGroot makes a similar but not identical point. Highly recommended.)




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Very interesting post, Ian, thanks.
So, in the face of overwhelming evidence, are liberals (or conservatives) more likely to reconsider their beliefs and adjust their ideologies to a new set of facts?
True. What you are willing to try or do is an outgrowth of your ideology and its assumptions about how the world works. Obama is, from all appearances, a classical somewhat pro-business liberal of the sort common in the 1960s and 1970s.
Well, Ian, are you having an argument with EmptyWheel about this? She seems to be a big fan of pragmatism. I’m trying to find my way through these issues myself, over at Oxdown.
Bob in HI
IMNSVHO, Liberals appear to be a bit more willing to revise their beliefs based on facts.
Of course, I’m sure most conservatives would make the same claim.
Yes, I would think so too, but liberals can be just as stubborn as conservatives.
Conservatives make up their facts to fit their beliefs.
Obama is more pragmatic than idealist in his approach (or at least appears to be). From the available evidence he generally embraces a social liberal-economic centrist ideology. As such he favors unions and workers rights, as well as restraints on trade (mostly guarantees of workers rights and environmental protections). He does not favor serious redistribution of we3alth through really high taxes on the wealthy or corporations (though higher than at present). He also favors expanded international trade, with protections for US workers. In foreign policy he seems to favor international engagement, but not interventionism.
Fantasy vs Reality
As a simple example, the creators of Rubinomics in the 90’s thought that financial deregulation would release firms to innovate (they were right) and that market mechanisms and self-interest would keep them from destroying themselves (they were wrong.)
Rubin’s Citicorp as Jane’s post downstream notes they never thought that we would have a nation wide housing crisis. Bwahahaha!
I think they tweaked their mathematical model to get the results they wanted.
Wishful thinking or Ponzai scheme
Innocent but STUPID! or well…still stupid but criminal
Before this debate came up, I assumed that pragmatists were those who took real world considerations into their calculations while ideologues did not.
During the Bush years, ideologue epitomized intransigence seen as a virtue and pragmatists were portrayed essentially as gutless wonders.
Now pragmatists are being spun as upright Obama appointees who will defend the status quo, while ideologues are cast negatively as progressives who had the arrogance to be right about everything from war, torture, to the economy.
In short, I don’t think any philosophical issues are at play here, just political code.
A thoughtful post.
There is a well known bias in favor of selecting information that confirms your existing point of view.
It is why viewers of Fox News think Fox is “news” rather than propaganda.
For example, everyone agrees that taxes affect economic behavior. A tax reduces the percentage return on any profitable activity, and so the same economic return in one out of 2 different activities could be encouraged by taxing one of them at a lower rate (generating a higher effective rate of return for the lower taxed activity).
That makes tax a TOOL that can be used–but the GOP makes it the basis of an entire ideology that all taxes are bad (and, I guess, by extension all economic activity is equally good). I think they cherry pick the data on taxes to reinforce their biases.
silly me.
and here i thought the latest focus on calling people “pragmatists” was, like the use of “bipartisanship” and “center” before it, just another way to paper over the ideology of the elite establishment – by pretending it doesn’t exist or that it’s not different than ours.
lol. ok, maybe i wasn’t completely off base.
Great post Ian, thanks! The worst argument in the world I have heard for some of Obama’s appointments is that they will “get stuff done”. Bush got quite a lot done, none of which was good. What gets done is the crux of the matter and should be the heart of any discussion about Obama’s advisors.
In the face of overwhelming evidence, Bush does not deviate from his script, mostly because that would take thought and that is too much effort. In Bush’s case, it cannot be called beliefs because he’s always been only a script reciter.
Is innovation a new word for slick con? Sorry Ian I think that you are being to nice.
I think that Glass-Steagall is what we should push Obama for.
The more the economy goes down the stronger our hand.
OT kind of Ben Stein was claiming that FDR didn’t change unemployment during the great depression.
He didn’t mention WW2 unemployment the GOP loves war economy spending. They forgot that the government paid business and that the government never got paid back directly after the war except for Finland.
So who paid the government in the first place for WW2 war spending rich people with higher taxes.
If anything FDR before the war did not do enough.
Ben Stein is a moron!
EW’s post went up after I’d already written mine. :)
Well, I’m an economically, ignorant fool..that much I’m certain of. I notice that the local economy in my area seems to be functioning as usual. I live in Texas. I think my property taxes are too high. I think that people under a certain income should not be overtaxed, because they cannot contribute to the economy if they are perpetually broke…we are taxed in so many ways..including toll roads and taxes on our phone bills, etc.
The rich have access to gazillions of tax loopholes…they have recently discovered that they live beyond their means and most of them have invested in stock that has/is crashing as we speak…”blue sky”…
The so-called middleclass exists on “credit”..money they don’t have and money that they can’t pay back. The wealthy business owners are freaking because of union demands that suck money from their company “profits”..Obviously, they want “people” to work as cheaply as possible so that they make as much profit as possible to maintain their way of living to which they have become accustomed. The whole thing is insane.
We currently live in lalaland. The kids are demanding of their instant “stuff”…with no concept of the worth of anything.
Hayell, the economic pundits can’t even articulate the “worth” of anything.
So. Now what?
Everything in my area seems to be functioning the same as usual. Why is that?
Not sure about that. 60s and 70s liberals understood progressive taxation.
Two points, Ian.
First, it’s one thing to make this argument in economics, another to make them in foreign policy, where Glenn started out and where he completed ignored the reality of what counts as “foreign policy ideology” in this country. In foreign policy, there are two things that count as ideology–the realism of Poppy and the idealism of Junior. To say that Obama is a pragmatist on that basis says that he is neither.
Also, I pointed out here bow Glenn and Daniel both ignored Obama’s solid value statements (that in another field might count as ideology).
So it’s one thing to look at economics–where there are two basic ideologies that capture the spectrum of moderates in this country–and for which you can measure efficacy (as you do here). It’s anotehr thing to make the claim wrt foreign policy, where you can’t measure efficacy without some consideration of the actual conditions of which you speak. Your argument simply doesn’t hold true for foreign policy–and it certainly doesn’t hold true for other domestic areas where, unlike foreign policy and economics, there aren’t the same kinds of schools of thought.
Also, your post doesn’t talk about process at all–how you implement your world view. And, again, that’s where you can’t discount pragmatism and that’s where people who are hand-wriging about Obama’s choices thus far simply ignore his pragmatism in past implementation of his world view.
The very essence of the centrist-liberal ideology is the protection of the status quo. The underlying assumption is that the basic system works, but just needs tweaking to get the bugs out. This was the dominant ideology from Roosevelt until Reagan. And yes, this is what Obama is about, just as it is what Clinton (either of them) is about. I have said that from the beginning, but what do I know. I am, after all, a socialist.
Heh, heh.
True, but they had inherited a system of extremely progressive taxation from Roosevelt and Eisenhower. I am not sure that they would have substantially raised taxes on their own.
I refuse to go to hell in a handbag. So there.
All is not lost.
Not just Fox News viewers. O’Reilly Much? He talks all the time about not subscribing to any ideology.
Count me among the handwringers EW. Given Obama’s track record of going back on his word with respect to FISA and telecom immunity, why should I be sanguine about whether he will follow through on things he has said in past speeches? If he does not implement policy that I agree with, why should I be pleased that he will be successful in implementing policy I disagree with?
Given that he appears to be surrounding himself with establishment insiders, what reason should I have to hope that the goals he will pursue and implement are truly novel approaches to problems that would constitute the change I had thought he campaigned on?
If there is no pragmatism, as you say, only ideology, then what would you call the ‘ability’ to re-frame your ideology to a new set of ideas, and why would you do it?
I think you can measure efficacy in foreign policy, actually. You can see the decline in perception of the US from various policies. You can see the loss of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars (yes, the Iraq war was lost, when you are paying people not to shoot at you, you lost the war), you can measure what happened in Somalia by the ships being captured right now, the depopulation of the capital and so on. You can measure how succesful the Israeli invasion of Lebanon was.
Since I predicted all of these things to various degrees, I think I can say that it’s easy enough to know what will result from many foreign policy actions. I predicted those things because I have a world view that takes into account how people react to various actions (like being invaded) which is accurate and has been vindicated time and time again.
In terms of process, I think my post does touch on that: it’s hard to implement good process if you don’t agree with the world view that underscores the actions you’re taking. A real liberal would know that raising taxes on the rich is necessary on pragmatic terms, for example. Obama, Summers and co., not being real liberals, don’t get that.
In foreign policy terms, a real liberal would understand that people have the right to self determination, and stop trying to take that away from Somalis and Palestinians, understanding that only legitimate governments with the support of the people are useful negotiating partners. That’s a liberal pragmatic view of how the world works but it has at its core an ideological belief.
Actions follow thoughts, and processes follow beliefs about the right things to do are.
(I should note, btw, that I wrote this last night. It is not in reaction to what you wrote at all, since I hadn’t read it when I wrote it.)
Upon what proof have investors withdrawn their investments?
Who has seen the actual numbers?
Are we talking about the ultimate bugga, bugga fear card here????
Where is the proof???? They keep saying…nobody knows….bugga, bugga…how bad, bad, bad, bad it is….
What the hell is “it”????
Who has seen “it”???
The shadow wants to know???
Obama’s keeping Gates? I don’t think i’m particularly pleased about that.
I see that Obama is keeping Sec of Defense Gates.
pragmatism without ideology is knowing how to make the trains run on time but not caring whether they are going bring jews to the gas chambers or wheat to the cites…. and ideology without pragmatism is insanity.
one without the other is profoundly dangerous.
but that’s not what’s going on here.
Nor I, though some people keep claiming he is more of a technocrat than an ideologue. I just do not trust anybody connected with the Bush (mal)administration.
amen.
Reasons change Desire remains the same
Ideology I want/don’t want certain things because I believe (not necessarily in God)
Pragmatism forget belief, forget morals, concern for others Reason excuses all Desire!
Any model can be tweaked math, philosophy, economics etc to give you the answers that you want to hear.
We think that by trying our best to be fair to everyone all Stakeholders/Citizens interests and greed will cancel each other out leaving behind only common goals that we can all agree upon.
Like End the War now and National Healthcare.
The problem is the Main Stream Media is owned by big companies that use the Media to try and create the news rather than report it.
End the war and National Healthcare are big winners in every poll only the corrupt MSM keeps these issues on the back burner with missing white women stories, sex drug movie star stories ect.
The only reason we are winning now is that the GOP despite all their belief in Magical Thinking lost, they were wrong about everything.
WMD, New Orleans, No Child Left Behind, Terri Schiavo (ended Bill Frist’s hopes for President) Privatize Social Security (looking at the Dow today, can you imagine if Bush had won that fight) We have enough troops in Iraq, the war will only cost a few billion, Mission accomplished. etc
Um, you don’t have what would count as a foreign policy ideology in this country, Ian, you have pragmatism. And to say that idealism (of which the current incarnation is neocon) always fails, you’d have to explain why past American idealism succeeded. There have been times and places where we have succeeded–through both force and propaganda–at achieving our objectives (which, for the two accepted foreign policy ideologies in the US, has been increased US hegemony) and there have been times where realism has failed. What makes the biggest differences is, first of all, in the execution (and there BUsh was a colossal diaster), and whether the propaganda behind our ideology carries moral weight (which it no longer does).
That’s a very different thing than the dichotomy between Keynsianism and Monetarism–keynsianism always works, monetarism produces short term localized victories and long term losses (unless your goal is about the rich getting richer).
The difference, as I’ve been pointing out, is that there is no real progressive foreign policy ideology in the US–there are lots of great ideas out there, but neither the institutional backing nor the tests in practice to argue for it.
You’re collapsing “world view,” “process and implementation,” and “ideology.”
Hi Ian. I posted something very similar, but from a radically different angle, on Glenn Greenwald’s site earlier. I’ve copied it into this message in case it is of interest.
I wanted to weigh in on the post from yesterday about pragmatism versus ideology, although it obviously also bears on today’s post.
I agree with your assessment of the political and media discourse surrounding these issues and your conclusion that the idea that ideology and pragmatism are mutually exclusive is a false construct that creates an illusory dichotomy.
I would like to throw in a twist on this argument by standing up for pragmatism for a second without, however, acquiescing to the false notions of pragmatism currently being disseminated by the media and Obama.
As you note, for the villagers, pragmatism apparently means getting things done despite what those things might be and despite whether they are morally inscrutable things or not. While this notion of pragmatism is, indeed, dangerous, it also, as far as I can tell, has nothing to do with pragmatism, or at least with the American tradition of it that runs from Dewey, to William James, to Richard Rorty (and, although they do not define themselves as pragmatists, Barbara Herrnstein Smith and Stanley Fish also fit into the Rortian mode of pragmatism). For people like James, Rorty and Fish, being a pragmatist begins first and foremost by denying that one can indubitably know any apodictic truth. There may be some nebulous, immutable and transcendental truths out there–Truth with a capital T–but since we can’t ever be sure of them, it’s best not to worry about trying to base our beliefs (moral and otherwise) on supposedly infallible foundational beliefs that are unverifiable. Attempts to do so by humans, as has happened through most of history, unfailingly lead to strife and catastrophe. See Bush’s view that God, a foundational truth, guides him in his actions.
A pragmatist, by contrast, in the Dewey-Rorty-Etc. tradition, offer as a corollary that history is not teleological and guided by this greater power called Truth (or God or what have you) and that history is best viewed as a series of contingent events that occur because humans interact on a human level independent of any higher power (in keeping with evolutionary theory). Pragmatism, then, is a return to a humanistic view of the world, one wherein you constantly are open to changing your tactics in order to achieve your goals, goals which are based on deep-seated beliefs derived from human interaction but not founded on transcendental ideals like God or the Good. This doesn’t mean one’s views or beliefs come from nowhere, as some interpret pragmatism, but rather that one’s beliefs and views are based on, in other words, one’s ideology that accrues, consciously and unconsciously, through years of interaction with other humans and through the varied experiences that compose a human life.
So, what I am suggesting is that were Obama a real pragmatist in line with this tradition, he would be willing to try different things to get his agenda passed, and even to reformulate that agenda as contingent events altered the needed scope of various programs, but he would not do so independently of his principles and beliefs and ideology. To put it more simply, one never acts based solely on nothing. Beliefs and morals, whatever shape they take or are derived from be it a notion that they come from God or from your wheelbarrow or simply through conversation with your neighbor, help individuals decide which actions to take. The notion that Obama being a pragmatist who gets things done despite what those things might be, things which are backed by no ideological force, is a false notion set up by the media (and indeed Obama himself) to mask the true ideology that underlies his policies and governing agenda. A bit like something called “compassionate conservatism.”
Now, it may turn out, though, that what Obama means when he calls himself a pragmatist, as he is defining it, is simply a smokescreen for the type of pragmatism defined above that underlies what he is selling. In other words, he might be selling a version of pragmatism that is palatable to the media in order to mask his real, better, because it leads to a more liberal view of the world, pragmatism. Here’s hoping.
I apologize if this post was tediously academic or something horrible like that. Long-time reader, first-time poster.
The Marshall Plan, or helping rebuild Japan after WW2 for example.
Interesting define moral weight? What is the Good?
Selise,
These words tend to become laden after they appear in the Washington newspapers a few times. Thus, in the 1990s if you were called a “pragmatist,” in Washington that meant you were associated with Clinton and meant, ipso facto, that you didn’t have any principles.
Now, in Washington, the assumption is that if you favor an ideology, you must be a Republican, and the ideology must be NeoConservatism, or you must be a disciple of (Milton) Friedman, etc.
Everything becomes identified with one side or the other in partisan politics.
Bob in HI
Ideologies aside these markets are a joke with the tax payer on the hook now for nearly 3 trillion dollars if the numbers are to be believed.
Bernanke and the Fed unleash another $800 billion of Helicopter cash and the joke is now on the average tax-paying U.S. citizen.
“Bernanke is going to keep printing money until there are no more trees in the United States.” Looks like Jim Rogers’ prophecy is proving true. I will add a corollary to that, which is “Bernanke will then start using the trees in Canada to print even more money.”
The Fed announced an $800 billion dollar program to purchase all kinds of asset-backed debt from banks. This program is being sold thru the media to the public as a way to stimulate consumer finance. But the last thing the consumer in the U.S. needs is the ability to take on more credit card and mortgage debt. If you have someone with a severe obesity problem, the last thing you would do is give them a high dollar gift card to McDonald’s.
Let’s look at what this Bernanke Helicopter program will do in practice. The Fed will use printed money to buy all kinds of distressed asset/mortgage-backed debt from banks. The banks will turnaround and use that money to pay off mostly derivative and creditor liabilities attached to that debt. Because the Fed is actively defying the Freedom of Information Act, we have no idea what they are buying and what they are paying.
Now for the good part. This program will, at least for this year, substantially slow down the bad asset write-offs at these big banks, enabling upper management to report paper profits which are in excess of expectations and goals, thereby allowing management to reward themselves with much higher compensation than otherwise. This is just another method by which our Government, who’s financial policies are controlled by bankers led by Paulson, are transferring even more wealth from the taxpayer to Wall Street.
What’s most appalling is that these programs are now endorsed handily by Congress and the incoming elected White House Administration. What everyone sees as a good thing – that is those who don’t understand the reality of this – will be soon rewarded with a vastly devalued dollar and the accompanying hyper-price inflation that follows hyper-growth in the money supply.
I can’t wait to see what’s next. By the way, anybody pissed off that the upper 10 executives at Wachovia will soon be rewarded with $98 million in termination compensation? Financed by the taxpayers of course.
Right. Or arguably, the soft power idealism that was more effective at winning the cold war than then “realism” of wars overseas.
And then there is idealism like out intervention in the former Yugoslavia which didn’t achieve lasting success, but did stop the killing isolate some of the tribalism.
A belief in self-determination and democracy is not a foreign policy ideological belief? A belief that people have a right to defend themselves against invaders isn’t an ideological belief? (I also have a set of beliefs about how to deal with insurgencies that I would classify as part of an intellectual school, sure they have pragmatic considerations, but they aren’t just pragmatic because the most pragmatic way to deal with an insurgency is the Chechen model.)
Of course, I daresay you’re right that there is no coherent school of progressive/liberal thought in the US on foreign policy. Still, appointing Rice to State would say something very very different than appointing Clinton, wouldn’t it?
There are places and times where classic Keynesianism doesn’t quite work, actually. You have to make some modifications to it to make it work – in particular, liberals couldn’t figure out how to deal with the supply bottlenecks and shocks of the 70’s, which is why Friedmanism was tried. It did, sort of, solve the problem, but at the cost of long term negative trends like income inequality, running up debt, trade deficits, loss of industrial base and so on. But it did solve the supply problem until Bush blew it.
Well, “liberty” meant something to a lot of people around the world (particularly in E. Europe and Asia) when it offered a motivating force to those trying to fight their own government. But “liberty” now is utterly devoid of meaning, and not just because of our torture habit, but also because our cultural exports is increasingly devoid of inspiration.
Runs counter to games theory
http://levine.sscnet.ucla.edu/general/whatis.htm
thank you, i know nothing of the history you briefly recount and appreciate your take. hope you are now hooked and will comment frequently.
well @12 i was trying to describe how i think the words are being used, vs @32 which is more my own take.
Freedom first, then the desire to improve as you see fit now that you have freedom. OK the looong discussion of Society and Individual freedoms I will leave for later.
1,837 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Ian Welsh:
I think that your fight is with how the term “pragmatism” as used…it seems to me that what you are sayin’ is that all of us work from “ideology” and that the choice for those who think systematically is between a pragmatic application of ideology or and “idealistic” application. Therefore we must understand where someone like Obama is coming from, that is, his basic ideological foundations in order to better understand where he might be going in the “pragmatic” applications of that ideology to real problems. The best example of idealistic ideology and it’s application in the real world would be 20 of the last 28years (with the exception of 8 years of “pragmatic liberalism” under Clinton)…the ideology that functioned from Reagan through both Bushes with the pause for Clinton can best be identified as fascism.
Now we may take issue with the timidity or limitations of Obama’s application of liberalism and we might even go so far as to call him a “neo-liberal” but I would argue that. I think that within some flexible definition of “classic liberal” Obama is a classic liberal and applying that ideology pragmatically to problems.
The argument over classification of ideology can be useful politically, as in identifying the ideology of the Republican Party as fascist, but it doesn’t help us to determine whether or not a particular pragmatic application of an ideology will work.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, LET’S KEEP THE STRUGGLE GOIN’!!
I always like to use the “pragmatic test of truth” as opposed to the identity or coherence tests: does it work?
I agree pragmatism is something real, and that you can be a pragmatist as an ideology. It’s just that “what works” always falls into a model with assumptions about the world, and what is necessary to be pragmatic is to know what model you’re using and what it’s embedded assumptions are.
Very few people are able to use an ideology well and stand aside from it at the same time.
I think you and EW agree liberty/freedom is a first step you use that desire to predict the future as a motive to action.
EW thinks that by acting on this knowledge we could have a better foreign policy.
I think you are both arguing over the definitions of words. The real meat of the argument I think you agree.
It is a belief. I would not say it’s an ideological belief (and to the extent it is, it actually shares with neocon ideology its foundational (claimed) belief.
That’s one of the distinctions I’m making about ideology here. With economics, two distinct schools of thought are very closely tied to means. In foreign policy that is less true. And furthermore, American foreign policy ideology (those schools of thought that get you published by the pundits in DC and, unfortunately, still dominates CW about what one can do) is still fundamentally about cloaking our means to hegemony.
I was going to use Obama’s decision to move away from the CW about Iran (he has moved back towards CW since the primary) to illustrate this. Idealists (the neocons) and the realists (Hillary) both said you had to be prepared to go to war to prevent Iran from getting nukes. Neither school would consider that Iran’s bid for hegemony in the ME (which is what we were really talking about–not nukes) might well be inevitable and/or might be something we can adapt to. But to do so, you’d have to give up both the foundations of American foreign policy ideology since at least the 1970s (and arguably much longer): that Saudi Arabia and Israel are our surrogates in the ME, from which our oil-based global hegemony can be maintained. But the same is true of his thinking about the Iraq war. Both the Clintons and both Bushies (and frankly, the Clintons are closer to neocons than Poppy) basically followed a policy of making sure Iraq did not remain an unpunished former client state–it’s just that the Clintons and certainly Poppy used realistic means to try to accomplish taht goal, while Bush used “idealistic” means to do so. Both failed.
hey, dr. dick? how’s things. didn’t mean to go o/t ’cause this is a great post by Ian. But I had just heard about Gates and almost fell outta my chair. Didn’t think Bam would do that.
didn’t mean a “?” after the 1st sentence.
EW,
Thanks for your dialog with Ian on this subject. You had this exchange, in response to Ian Welsh @ 28:
What is the difference between ideology and idealism? I would have thought that the NeoCon screed is about as ideological as you can get. Their Project for a New American Century includes a Statement of Principles. If this is not an ideology, what is?
Bob in HI
You have to be a full Professor of Philosophy from America
etc. Nobody else I think knows the American philosophers.
I’m only a B.A in phil
Because they believe that high taxes are bad for the economy, which is why they and Obama are going to drop taxes and not raise them on the rich. This is an ideological belief on their part, there is evidence both for and against it (the 50’s and 60’s, when the US had the highest marginal tax rates were very good times for most people) and whether you believe in highly progressive taxation is an ideological decision.
I’d like to look at this from a different angle and would like your perspective on this. The main gist of Obama’s campaign, especially in the mid-West, has been the focus on jobs and reestablishing the manufacturing base. Obama has not been very specific about how he is going to achieve this. He also has not really answered the question (which I think is framed wrong, but that’s another matter) in how he is going to pay for it all.
Is it possible, as a student of history, that Obama has design in returning (partially, at least) to the taxation system prior to the institution of the progressive income tax, that is some kind of tarriff system and to balance the country’s balance sheet in this fashion?
Obama has been very coy about the WTO and has spoken out against the Columbian free trade agreement. There was the brouhaha several months ago with Obama about Canada and NAFTA, if I recall correctly.
The only way that I see us restoring our manufacturing base along with lowering our costs through universal health care is to level the playing field with countries that exploit their labor force or ignore environmental laws, which directly affect their cost. The Japanese did this to build up their auto-industry and the Chinese have all kinds of protectionist policies in place to protect their own economy.
I just don’t see how we are doling out all this money and expecting to do all of these things in the long term if we don’t find someway to increase the income side of our national budget as well. Tarriffs and fees on trading securities would seem to be the missing link here. What am I missing here?
I generally agree, but have a few comments.
RE: “Larry Summers et al have learned their lessons” My problem with Summers is that he is one prominent non-reactionary economists who has been rather quiet about what lessons he has learned. The recent pieces by him that I have read are advocacy pieces for various baiout policies that are already looking pretty stale, after a whole five weeks. He has been writing more like a policy entrepreneur with his eye on moving back into a big position than a serious analyst. Anyone know of a piece where he lays out how his thinking has been changed by finanaicial mess, please let me know.
Summers is the economics appointmee that I am least comfortable with, by far.
Not sure what you mean re Glass-Steagall. Some economists do not want to reimpose a Glass-Steagall type rebime simply because they do not think it will work. I read a piece (or hear a clip, I forget) by Alan Blinder saying that insitutional developments make a Glass Steagall act approach too liable to evasion. But then Blinder wants a total redo of mortgage securities markets: standard contracts, only traded on formal exchanges, clearinghouse for trades and net positions, other strict rules forbidding open positions to make sure it is price finding rather than a price making market. So I don’t think his position on a new Glass-Steagall is a test of his position on regulation per se.
Problem for US-style Washington consensus economics now is that what theoreteical framework is someplace between major damage rendering not drivable to the shop, and smoking ruins, depending on whether you are listening to Krugman or Stiglitz. Either way, what comprehensive theory can guide their decisions right now? None that I know of that is reliable. Better to be honest about it like Krugman than lie to oneself (reactionary economists) or be cagey (Summers, IMHO). Only a few like Stiglitz are able to say “Ha, I told you so” and have some coherent framework for thought and action right now.
What does a person who claims to be guided by strictest logic and emprical science do right after their intelletual framework has been hit by a big, fast moving bus? A number of sound respectable economists are in that position these days.
Stirling Newberry upstairs
imo, you are confusing what obama tells us with what and how obama thinks. is there any reason to think that what obama says is anything more than a carefully crafted advertisement designed to be part of a larger marketing campaign – in other words completely unrelated to his personal ideology?
same thing with the neocons – could they not be pretending, in the straussian tradition, to be democracy idealists while actually despising democracy?
Actually I am sick as a dog. Went in for my morning class then came home. Alternating between stints in bed and sitting at the desk. Typing qualifies as heavy lifting today.
Words have meaning this is Wittgenstein territory. I’m starting to feel outclassed LOL!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Wittgenstein
Idealism (big I) is an ideology whose current form is neocon foreign policy.
Which says the kind of idealism that Ian espouses is not party to that ideology. That is, the neocon ideology mobilizes the value of idealism to supports its larger plans to cloak hegemony–plans I’m sure Ian doesn’t abide by.
As an illustrtion, Summers recent guidelines for fiscal policy stimulus are very conventional and inappropriate for this current situation, seems to me, though I am no expert. As I remember him formulate it in last week or so: quick, make sure it is spent (high propensity to spend policies only), AND done, kaput, over within a year. That line is out of conventional macro text. Is it appropriate now, when there is good reason to believe that mortgage securitization and bizare dysfunctional mix Bush era monetary and fiscal polisy have lead to severe misallocation of real capital investment over last 8 years? Leaving aside first signs of dysfunction that appeared under Clinton?
I think Stiglitz and Roubini see the fiscal policy issue clearly and have better analysis of good design of fiscal policy, with Krugman following behind, though his analysis is somewhat opague due to overeliance on conventional Washington consensus macroeconomics.
Sure, absolutely, Obama’s entire career since 2002 could be a false front. Though of the policies he suggested in 2002–getting rid of AQ, energy independence, non-proliferation, and “idealism” about persecution–he has tried to pass legislation on one and passed legislation on another and consistently made all of them key points.
So that would beg the question whether the evidence for that is greater than the evidence against. I’m not sure–what I am saying is that the ideas that Obama has advocated are far outside of what someone from either major fp ideology would espouse. Does that make him better than Hillary, who remains comfortably within that ideological framework? Not if he doesn’t pursue those policies. But we don’t have evidence one way or another on that yet.
So then, shouldn’t there be a third ideology? Granted that within village/foreign policy sphere, there are only those two, but even within academia isn’t there a third or more? To us a name never used in the beltway, what would Chomsky think?
Clarification:
After comment appeared I seem to have cut out a key sentence: My main concern with Summers fiscal policy guidelines is the fiscal stimulus should be done and over with within a year, leavign as little trace as possible on the real structure of the economy. It is thought of as purely very short term countercyclical policy to increase spending. The nature of the spending is secondary, and should be designed so as to alter the underlying structure of the economy (for example, size and composition of captial stock) as little as possible.
That is how I interpret Summers recent statemnts, and it is that third bit of his guideline that seems suspect and dated to me.
Chomsky would say that they are all one and the same.
Absolutely–and that’s what I think true progressives ought to be conscious of when they push this (and frankly, a lot of people with foreign policy chops who hang out in progressive circles are just realists).
I have been advocating for years that you build this new ideology on the notion of sustainability that–because it would view everything in terms of both traditional foreign policy areas and global warming, would require cooperation and a move away from traditional hegemonic roles.
China would still present a challenge to that new hegemony, but not entirely (since China’s a lot more proactive about energy than us).
I don’t think such a regime would work all that well. I think Obama is an incentive/disincentive economist who also believes in behavioural hacks. It’s why he tends to reach for tax credits and so on so frequently.
I do think there is a small possibility he might be thinking of some form of fair trade tariffs, in which the more you exploit your workers, the more you get hit with tariffs. Another way to do the same thing would be to tie it to currency transactions.
But a system where you move away from progressive income tax will almost certainly lead to even greater inequality than we have now, to bubbles and so on. It’s a profoundly bad, profoundly a-liberal thing to do, unless you can figure out a way to make it progressive. But income tax is virtually the only progressive tax.
Sorry–that was a reply to Ian @66. And yes, Chomsky would say both realism and idealism are one and the same, which is sort of my point. How do we get someone who is willing to act on giving up hegemony (while not saying it, bc he won’t get elected)?
To some degree, the issue will be as moot as the CAFE standard debate–reality is moving faster than our hegemony can keep up. Which is why I think Obama might be able to find a new ideology.
i’m not suggesting it’s all a false front – i’m suggesting that there is a difference between what he says (especially as part of a campaign) and what he does… more importantly, although i did not say so before, there is a difference between what he does when it doesn’t matter (the outcome would be the same regardless) and what he does when his actions are determinative.
that’s why i put so much weight on fisa, on the bailout, on choosing biden, and on his appointments – because those are things where his actions were or are determinative.
I personally think that there is a difference between ideology and facts and how the world actually works.
Certainly ideology can make people ignore facts. It can make them try and distort or cover up facts. Ideology is a “hypothesis” and as Thomas Henry Huxley said “A beutiful hypothesis can be destroyed by a single cold fact”.
Where ideology plays an important role is in the realm of values. Those values often determine what questions are considered important. For example…if one is obsessed ideologically with valuing the survival of corporations rather than the well-being of people then one might frame the questions to be asked and the information received in terms of the corporate elites. One could easily have a world where corporations were secure, yet the workers and large numbers of people were suffering from poor mental and physical health, etc. Conversely, one could have a society, theoretically, where people were healthy, happy and personally secure while corporations rose and fell like matchstick houses.
If ones ideology is centered on the survival of entrenched elites, parties or religions then one might find results different than if ones ideology were interested in empowering the disenfranchised, minority parties, or science.The same set of facts would be seen through opposite lenses.
But there are certainly cases where facts are falsified or distorted or ignored to fit ideology. Read Steven Gould’s “The Mismeasure of Man” for replete examples. But the facts were stil facts.
BTW Here is a timely example of how ideology can “filter” factual evidence, even when the facts were shown to be otherwise.
Lawyers ponder Exxon Case over a Footnote on Sponsored Scientific Studies
I think that much of the problem regarding the foreign policy establishment is that, whether we like it or not, we are an empire state (as are other members of the G8). As a consequence our prosperity (or at least that of key decision makers) is tied to our ability to bend others to our will. That severely limits the range of acceptable foreign policy options. In order to operationalize a truly progressive foreign policy ideology, we would have to relinquish our position as an empire state, which comes with significant costs.
I think worrying about Obama, and kibbitzing his future moves, less important than making our case for what he, or anyone, should do. Maybe I am more comfortable with incremental moves that go in the right direction than others here, so as long as Obama seems pointed in the right diretion and wiling to honestly discuss his policies, that is OK with me until he actually starts his new job.
Obama is now the top dog of the plutocracy. The first and only rule of the plutocracy is protect the plutocracy. The only way Obama will represent the “little” people is if he is forced to by the “little” people.
Idealism of the neocon variety says ‘we have the right to tell other people how to live their lives, even at the cost of invading them’. The problems with it are both, er, pragmatic and ideological – do we have the right to tell other people how to live their lives? And can we make them live their lives how we want?
The answer to the first question has to be ‘very rarely’. I think most liberals would say “only in the case of genocide”.
The answer to the second question is “sure, if you’re willing to pay the price”. Back when the Iraq invasion/occupation was being planned, I suggested that if the US/Neocons were serious about their goals, they needed a full draft, put about a million people in uniform and slap half of those down into Iraq, with a squad on virtually every street corner.
One of my main rules of analysis is this: are the people willing to do what is necessary to achieve their ends? If they aren’t, nothing else matters. Neocons were never serious, because they were never willing to do what it took to achieve their ends. Same thing with the Israelis in Lebanon, their ends weren’t achievable by any means they were willing to do, so they were obviously going to lose.
But details matter a lot: when tons of stuff was done through Haliburton and mercenary companies, I knew the US wouldn’t win, because those people are incompetent.
When Paulson decided to outsource the TARP to private banks, I knew it wouldn’t work, because that detail indicates it won’t work, it can’t work.
When the stimulus package happens the details will matter. What are the jobs? HOw are they created? How much of that 500 billion is going to companies and how much to actual jobs. Are those jobs just flashes in the pan, or do they create new industries and long term economic activities? Do they fix supply bottlenecks? Is the amount of money/manpower on each sufficient to achieve what has to be achieved? Etc… A lot of those decisions are ideological – for example, how much should the government do directly and how much should be outsourced to firms to do?
Incremental moves??? Western Europe has had universal health care for over 60 years! If the U.S. becomes any more incremental it will begin moving backwards even faster.
Neo-con Mark Halperin is on MSNBC with Mika for the next hour. I suggest your turn them off immediately. Or if you want to be told what the latest neo-con talking points are, then watch them tell you. Halperin is to honesty, what Sarah Palin is to turkeys.
Ideology is how you figure out which facts matter. The problem of data is this: there’s too much of it. Knowing which parts to discard, which to place emphasis on, and what each fact means is what ideology does. World view tells us “this is important, this isn’t so important, this isn’t important at all” and it also tells us why it’s important and what it means.
Agree completely. We simply need to push our agenda on him and other policy makers and stop fretting about “might bes”. Enough time for fretting after he is actually in office and implementing policies. So far I have not seen anything that surprises me at all.
Well my training in eco amounts to basic micro and macro so I am not up for any Nobel Prize, but I do have a thought or two. First the wave the flag party go us here because they became the international party of money and damned the country. They thought 10 min. ahead and forgot that when their citizens could not buy cars, pay for the wars ect. they could not support the empire. They could not see past the quick money to them and were all ready to sell out the country for the gold. Should be tried for treason.
Second a whole bunch of us forgot what working for a living means, not getting rich, but getting a good standard of living and having a chance to advance based on merit. Merit there is word not used much.
Third is that a whole bunch of these liberals and conservatives who thought they were smarter than anyone. While Bush is a legacy affermative action poster child, he understood that he was part of the royal family.
My fix is that everyone is an hourly worker and must apply all time sheets ect. to recieve conmpensation from any buisness they are not sole proprieters of. Corporations are stripped of the rights of being a person by law. The shareholders get to vote salary, not the board. See how they run that then. No salary above 1 million and if you get stock options you work for min. wage during the year and get options only then.
Well, then, there is a foreign policy ideology (the neocon’s Project for a New American Century)?
I agree that there is, as of yet, no well-formulated progressive ideological response. It is not that the principles are lacking, but that it has not yet been articulated in a package that is broadly recognized. I’m going to have a go at it over at my Oxdown blog.
Bob in HI
still one of the best examples, imo – is almost 40 years old. chomsky debates buckley on frontline – it’s on youtube and i highly recommend it. part one, part two.
Citizen Bluetoe2:
I think yer on to somethin’ there Citizen Bluetoe2…hopefully, we ken keep enough heat on Obama that he will cut a little fat from the “plutocracy” and our heat will ignite a new economy.
It may well be that what I said above does run counter to games theory. I’m not that up on the subject. Thanks for pointing that out though. I guess I would also ask, are critiquing my post by saying I am violating games theory in a way that makes what I wrote untenable? Because even the part you quoted I am trying, or at least think I was, to summarize the viewpoint of the “american philosophical pragmatism movement.”
Well, I want the very best incremental moves! And I will argue forcefully for only the best incremental moves that go in the best direction. And I will forcefully argue against incremental moves that will get us stuck someplace uncomfortable. The European systems were not installed in one day, and most have experienced moderate fixed to complete overhauls.
And are you sure which flavor of social insurance medicine you want? There are several from which to choose.
But, I was talking about fiscal policy in my comment, not healthcare reform.
I completely disagree. The cycle of Reagan -> Clinton -> Bush II -> Obama (ignoring largely H.W. Bush) has shown me clearly that neither liberals nor conservatives are better suited than the other to change their positions or beliefs based on credible evidence.
This country is ruled by 30%’ers on each side. People’s unwavering support for Obama as some kind of progressive-reform candidate, which flew directly in the face of everything but his rhetoric, combined with still other’s unwavering support for Bush despite his cavalier disregard for the Republic, his oath, and humanity have lead me to the notion that there’s a narrow minority of people who don’t buy into identity politics and team mentality. An even narrower minority of people who pursue ideologies that are congruent with serving the public trust, rather than brazen self-interest.
I totally agree with what you are saying here. I hope I don’t imply elsewhere above. The point of pragmatism, of course, is being able to have enough self-awareness, intellectual curiosity, and intellectual fortitude to question one’s own beliefs and actions. It doesn’t necessarily mean you abandon any beliefs (although it can) but it does mean you reflexively process and examine your beliefs with the awareness that they can evolve.
Truth, to a pragmatist of the type I describe above, simply means something like “standards of warranted behavior” coupled with the notion that such standards are constantly evolving. If you are one who views liberty and freedom as essential rights, then the evolution of you beliefs may reach the point where you, like Richard Rorty eventually did, come to understand that opposing gay marriage is not in line with your principles and you adjust. THe macroconcerns of one age–freedom, liberty, etc.–may not meet the microconcerns of another age that are tributaries to the same exact contemporaneous macroconcerns, but that is why one has to be self-critical enough to judge which new microconcerns are at stake to gain the larger interests of liberty and freedom for all.
Or something like that. If that makes any sense.
Lucky for us, that’s happening anyway.
Yes exactly. I sometimes think that Obama is very shrewdly describing himself as a pragmatist simply to say, “I’m everything the previous people were not.” But what that means to Obama that he is in fact, is a different matter.
Nope, just some stuff I read once. Never was a phil. major. Strayed into some classes from time to time though.
I agree with everything except this:
Depending on what you mean by “invade” and “tell other people how to live their lives” liberals have been doing both, happily, forever. Whether in the form of free trade policies or political pressure or simple covert ops, liberals in this country have always told others how to live.
And you might think about whether we should tell others how to live wrt their emissions or their human rights abuses or their respect or not for IP.
Yes (and hastened by the Bushevik ineptitude), but unfortunately many decision makers are actively resisting the transition. This could end as badly as the colonial wars of the 1960s (Algeria comes to mind).
imo obama has been very good at not being clear about that.
and that captures perfectly why we liberals are hated as elitist – because we presume to know better than the people who actually have to live with our decisions.
I think this is part of ideology. But it’s also useful to note that there is a difference between adhering to an ideology and being an ideologue. An ideologue, for instance, has certain beliefs that do not change or waiver no matter what reality presents them (sound like anyone?). By contrast someone could support an ideology that is liberal in nature and constantly adjust their positions on certain smaller issues that compose their larger belief in the “freedom” or what have you.
At the same time, i’m not sure you can simply choose between bits and pieces of things. There are certain ideologies that we are all encompassed by in some ways: American democracy, capitalism, American hegemony. Sure you can have different beliefs, fight against capitalism (or what have you) but at the same time the moment you stick money in an American savings account you are drawn further into the overarching structural ideology of America (something maintained, more or less, by an enormous blind bureaucracy).
Short of genocide, no, liberals nor anyone else has the right to tell others in other countries how to live their lives, and the sheer hatred of America in many parts of the world is because both liberals and conservatives seem to think they have the right to.
As someone who grew up in the aid community, while I don’t agree with Reagan’s “the government is here to help” being bad, I do believe in “the US is here to help” being amongst the scariest things you can ever hear with respect to your economy (although usually it’s the IMF, no difference). Wasn’t always that way as Taiwan and Japan and S. Korea can attest, but it has been for most countries for going on 40 years now.
I also don’t forget the Clinton Iraq sanctions and how many people they killed.
Call me a real conservative: I believe in the treaty of Westphalia.
If you’re in the system you often contribute to the system. The sign of a bad ideology is that it is all encompassing. Ian’s first rule of ideologies “if it explains everything, it’s bunk”.
See Marxism and Freudianism.
(Not to say that both don’t have some useful things to say, but as all encompassing world views, they fell down hard).
I guess I wasn’t completely clear – some form of progressive taxation, including re-institution of the estate tax is also necessary in order to prevent the current bubble economy.
So is it your position that this job creation/restoration of manufacturing base is just spin or is their actual policy behind the rhetoric?
Nope I’m pointing out the holes in Bush ideology. Your explaination of the differences between that and the American philosophers view seems to me to also be a takedown of Bushism.
I’m just pointing out a supporting point.
I must say that in the hard sciences your beliefs can be as hard as you want, but unless there is a repeatable testable variable and outcome, no dice. When both sides moved the bar to represent what they wanted to be the outcome then any true science was lost. Look St. Ronnie and Bush both used the fact that income to the gov. went up when the cut taxes, without looking at the growth of econ and other things they lost any true scientist. They did not want true results they wanted the outcome they wanted. If no true free market exist anywhere, why is this parlor game even allowed. I can be a Pat Buchanan, America First kinda guy before I can be a free trade, it matters not where the car is made, race to the bottom kinda guy. Not that his brand is what I want, but at least it has some (not much) protection for me and mine here in America and the western world. The new deal and the great society were great programs. The fact that a few pointy head people convinced a bunch of working class and middle class people that they were one day going to be rich and that a $1 hamberger was their right and they should not pay for the health care of others is just mankinds greed.
As I always said to people years ago, “if you dont like the gov. running health care, wait till you get a load of the HMO/Insurance company running it, you cannot vote them out.”
I might borrow that:)
So much for the Physics quest for a grand unified theory.
later folks
OK, maybe we’re in EPU-land by now, but my attempt at a progressive foreign policy ideology is up.
Bob in HI
102
Good point there’s hope for the Grand unified theory yet.
Well, no he hasn’t but mushy liberalism has been a pragmatic move of the left since Nixon. If he were to lay out a world view, the true pragmatic part would come as he actuated policy that reflected those views. What is the utility of this program? It hasn’t worked? Ok, now let’s move quickly to try this different plan which is still in keeping with my overall viewpoint that, say, it isn’t morally right to torture people.
On the other hand, if Obama were, as he is now, against gay marriage based on some moral reason he could, over time, come to disregard this essential belief.
IN other words, pragmatism should be about being able to change both belief and policy as new information arises, as you reflect and seek out knowledge, as you interact with other human beings, and as your own views mature and your understanding of the lives of others increases.
i think i’m with cinnamonape in that ideology, as i think you are using it, also affects what questions we ask and what experiments we make and not just how we see data (cinnamonape’s example of gould’s mismeasure of man, which i have read, is a good one but they are all around us).
Cool. I wasn’t sure because I am wholly ignorant of games theory. And yes, I was trying, with my explanation to explain how it was a takedown of the Bush administration. Glad it came across that way.
Ideology provides the framework which determines the nature of the questions we ask and the means we use to answer them. It provides a “theory of reality.”
So is the idea that liberals tell people in other countries how to live, and conservatives are the ones who tell Americans how they (abortion, gay rights, sex education) are supposed to live?
Well, this is true. If it explains everything, it is bunk. But, nevertheless, even if something is bunk it can still become the ruling institutional ideology of the day, one that it can become nearly impossible, once these institutional structures harden, to get out of or resist in meaningful ways that might upset the reigning superstructure. Think, for instance, if WW II had turned out differently and fascism and Nazism had become harden institutional realities in the Western World. They would explain everything, still eb bunk, and still be reality.
i like the way you describe pragmatism – in that it appeals to me, not that i have any idea if that is how obama or anyone else sees it.
but to go with your description, if i’m understanding you correctly, then i don’t think we can call ourselves or anyone else a “pragmatist” because by definition it is something we work at and aspire to – not something we are.
American politics have given us New Deals,New Frontiers and Great Societies. All of three of these surely better grounded in positive views of a better America for the bottom half of Americans more than the top five percent.
Ronald Reagan surely wanted to blame government and got away with it in ways we now are seeing here in late 2008 put the lie to Ronald Reagan’s “government is the problem” buzz phrase. Suddenly Wall Street and American Big Banking are quite interested in lots of government help.
Ronald Reagan busted up the Air Traffic Controllers Union to score points and that view seems to run strong today with the UAW in the crosshairs of some who evidently think Americans should not get ahead unless working two or three jobs and struggling eternally. Interesting that view is.
The top five percent of Americans have done very well these past 30 years. I guess if you only care about the top five percent of a countrys citizens welfare that is fine and good. However perhaps a better measure of any society is how the bottom half or bottom one third are doing. That surely seems a more ethical,moral point of view.
Americans deserve better government than we tend to get. Surely we all understand the concept of shared public services like police,fire or schools well enough. The same template should not be as difficult as it has been so far for Americans in and with Universal Healthcare System for Americans. Solving this social/economic issue may open on solutions for other pending American problems.
Let the facts,truths and known outcomes of known records of conduct shape where we go and do not go again. Right now another FDR showing up for America seems much closer to where we need to go than another Ronald Reagan.
lol, not quite. it doesn’t matter where we live:
liberals (as ew is using the term) know best what we want and what will be good for us. they are smarter and wiser than us. they are also very busy so they don’t have time to waste listening to us if we think they have it wrong. (they are leaders, we are advocates).
conservatives understand the natural (or divine) order of things. that it is their place, not because they are smarter or wiser, to rule and be obeyed.
“but to go with your description, if i’m understanding you correctly, then i don’t think we can call ourselves or anyone else a “pragmatist” because by definition it is something we work at and aspire to – not something we are.”
Right! It is ever-evolving and protean. But that doesn’t mean it is mushy or based on nothing. It means your view of things and your actions stem from moral principles of your own but that you are reflexive enough to change those principles as you develop and gain knowledge, etc etc if it is necessary to do so as more you become convinced that the beliefs you held need to be tempered or reformulated. It is explicitly not a stable “we are” type of thing. It seeks and it scours, it explores for more and in that way continues to reflect growing changes in the world around us.
Glad it sounds interesting to you. Never really posted on a blog before. Kind of unsure of what to say or how to interact.
Restoring the manufacturing base requires unprotecting the protected parts of the economy. If they reset house prices properly, we’ll know they’re serious.
now that’s a pragmatism i can believe in! (just joking – normally i’d put a “/snark” or “/s” tag)
i’m glad you decided to delurk today. thank you for the conversation!
Sociologists have an aphorism “things believed true have real effects”. ie. if you believe something that isn’t true, but you act as if it is, well, it has effects.
LOL
All I’m saying–and with my larger argument that the two doctrines of thought that are really fp ideologies in this country–are pretty presumptuous overseas.
Conservatives like to tell peolple overseas AND here how to live (think of Bush’s gag rule, for example).
Right! Right!
THis was a nice chat. I’ve got to go join some people for a drink though. Like I said I usually never post anything so thank you for everyone for welcoming and chatting with me.
“Ian’s first rule of ideologies “if it explains everything, it’s bunk”.”
It should be…if it explains every “possible” outcome, it’s bunk. And very good Scientific Theory endeavors to explain everything that IS…but if it explains everything that ever could be (in imagination) then it is untestable.
But I view ideologies as the ethical and moral foundations of an individual or group with a design for attaining these ends. The “design” can be practical or impractical. It can vary in time scale or regional scope. Thus some ideologies might be implementable at a local scale, or succeed in the short run. But they may not be extensible or sustainable. That’s when they run up against facts.
I don’t believe that ideologies ARE capable of actually transforming the facts (this would be the post-modernist claim…or the assertion made by a Rove acolyte after Bush’s first term “We CREATE Reality”. Reality exists independently of ideology. And ideologies that are so contrary to experience are likely doomed for oblivion.
But it can take a long long time for an ugly fact to kill a beautiful ideology. Generations.
I think in theory you can encourage one behavior over another with taxes, but I think you have to be careful about this assumption. The difference in tax rates may have to be vast in order to have the outcome that is desired.
In other words a tax of 10% on a desired activity and 15% on an undesired activity may have no effect. The difference in the tax rates may have to be on a large order of magnitude to get the desired result.
I would like to mention that most tax advisors will advise against making any decision to invest based on tax implications as those may change at the government’s whim.
Sadly you may be all to right that the only reason we lost is because the Reps were so damn wrong. In 2000 one could not even come close to predicting all the havoc they have wrought. It was just not even on the radar at that point. By the debates Bush and Gore were clones.
But at least we can learn from failure now if we could learn from success like FDR’s economic plan which has been forgotten even tough it worked better than anything since.
We might consider ourselves evolved.
One of the most important ideas of modern government is that no small group can hope to understand the whole populace and all it’s issues, so you need a good sized committee (or committees) to gather information, evaluate it and (given some goals and ideas) promote certain policies. This also helps to ensure more people view the world and restrain bad policies from being implemented.
Govern by committee with a few excellent individuals to make final decisions.
The Bush administration has focused on the needs and desires of a far smaller interest group than at most any time in our history. This narrowness of vision and interest has led us to what we consider tremendous disasters. I wonder if the uber-rich feel it’s been bad for them.
So, given a Democratic administration which has the interest of more people at heart and an idea that ‘the basic system works if we can get the bugs out’ the question remains whether they’re looking at the needs of everyone (the poor, minorities, etc.) and whether their vision of how the nation should relate to the world is for the good.
I think that’s why we focus on world-view, personal history and achievements.
If you want to change ‘the basic system’ then you have to kill a lot of people and that’s far from a majority view.
If you merely want the administration to notice more of ‘the People’ then you need a bull horn. Demonstrations proved futile. The Internet is a lot better. All hail Al Gore, inventor of the Internet, savior of Modern Democracy and the Environment. Woo hoo!
I think Obama has a good sense of family and intelligence and that he values experience and knowledge. I hope they help him with world-view and fill in the gaps (which all presidents have) on information. Where he might fall down a bit is whether he chooses a very well-rounded cadre who can inform him about ALL of America. As has been noted, so far we haven’t seen a lot of Liberals/Progressives being discussed for major positions.
Personally, I’d like to see a President create a sort of think-tank for the White House to bring together information and ideas from this or that work group or department, so it doesn’t get narrowed down to what a department secretary or the chief of staff wants him to see. Having a bigger pipe of verified important information flowing into the White House with a bigger group of people assigning importance to that information in the White House might be beneficial. We have some of that in the NSC and NEC, but who focuses on other sources of information on other topics?
This is an excellent idea– but rather than create them, why not elevate the ones already in the making?
Riffing off his internet expertise, why not do some high-profile publicizing of ideas developed by some of the major progressive advocacy organizations, such as
* the ACLU
* Common Cause, which has a Research Center (Nonprofit, nonpartisan citizen’s lobbying organization promoting open, honest and accountable government.)
* Media Matters (A non-profit progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation …)
* People for the American Way (Conducts research, legal, education, and advocacy for a wide variety of liberal causes)
Most of these are proto-Think Tanks that could be puffed up with a bit of Presidential attention. I’m not counting the Progressive Policy Institute for present purposes, because they are a creature of the DLC, and with Al From in charge, they are the kind of Democrat that we need to change from, not to.
What other proto-think tanks of this kind deserve attention?
Bob in HI
If they aren’t at all humble then they go to Congress and simply say they’ve now discovered their working theory for 40 years isn’t quite right and then go home.
If they’re a bit more humble they might look around to see who did get it right and try to learn from them.
Practically, you’re not going to have one person get it right all the time, so it’s best to have a diversity of opinions and some process to discover any consensus they arrive at.
Though Obama has picked very good people, there isn’t the kind of diversity one would want in an advisory council. Administrators might have one view, but advisers need to be more diverse if you’re to get lucky and avoid mistakes.
Don’t forget that the minimum wage is one other thing wich helps counterbalance the constant draining of wealth into the Rich pockets.
I think we are now at a point where that kind of world-view might be most easily put on, like a well-worn coat. But, as you point out, there are many who would oppose that strenuously.
Were they really Liberals or just DLC who were called Libs by their Republican foes? I really don’t recall any Liberals inhabiting the White House, and that includes FDR.
Edwards, Dukakis, Brown, Udall, McGovern
Oh wait, LBJ was quite Liberal in the domestic policy area. But, foreign policy? Who?
Oh, so Pragmatism is evil, now, is it?
Agreed. And emptywheel has discovered a real world example of this phenomen.
She named it pixie dust.
-on
For Obama, this discussion is critical.
But I’m too cynical these days to think of Bush II as enveloping a foreign policy per se.
I always assumed Bush II was a pragmatist: Wars make presidents popular. Bush likes popularity. Iraq was presumed to be an easy target. Bush takes our US troops to war under false pretenses. Bush gets to wear a Commander-In-Chief hat. He under-deploys troops in order to stretch out the length of the war in Iraq. This prolongs his Commander In Chiefness.
His cronies receive dividends from the war. Bush then proceeds to trample the Constitution– under the mistaken belief that a Commander In Chief in a time of war is the commander in chief of the People. He loses popularity. His party loses the election.
Well, if you are talking about economists, you are entirely right because economists disagree on almost everything and to be a professional you have to pick a side. This is why I trust Mark Thoma because he will present some of the disagreement.
OTOH if you consider yourself a pragmatist you need someone like Geithner on your side because he saw it from the inside and was focused on solving problems. Also economists seem to agree that we need a stimulus package, and now. So you go out and find people who understand what ought to be in a stimulus package and how you create jobs. The limit on ideology for such a position is that you agree that the government has a role in creating jobs and even creating new economic institutions because the old ones, especially for financial regulation, are not working very well.
Of course everyone has an ideology. But everyone doesn’t have a prepackaged label, or need to court the approval of those who give out prepackaged labels.