There is an article in the NYT on the fall of Citibank that has some startling admissions, but none more shocking than this:
Citigroup’s risk models never accounted for the possibility of a national housing downturn, this person said, and the prospect that millions of homeowners could default on their mortgages. Such a downturn did come, of course, with disastrous consequences for Citigroup and its rivals on Wall Street.
They never factored that housing prices would drop? Really? Kobe figured that out, he sold his house in 2004.
My dog could run the Fed.
Anyway, Wall Street media is standing there with pitchforks and torches calling for Rubin’s head this morning. A WSJ op-ed wonders "Why are Robert Rubin and other directors still employed?" New York Post says "Citi of Fools: Negligent bank board must quit."
More from the NYT:
[W]hile Mr. Rubin certainly did not have direct responsibility for a Citigroup unit, he was an architect of the bank’s strategy.
In 2005, as Citigroup began its effort to expand from within, Mr. Rubin peppered his colleagues with questions as they formulated the plan. According to current and former colleagues, he believed that Citigroup was falling behind rivals like Morgan Stanley and Goldman, and he pushed to bulk up the bank’s high-growth fixed-income trading, including the C.D.O. business.
Former colleagues said Mr. Rubin also encouraged Mr. Prince to broaden the bank’s appetite for risk, provided that it also upgraded oversight — though the Federal Reserve later would conclude that the bank’s oversight remained inadequate.
Once the strategy was outlined, Mr. Rubin helped Mr. Prince gain the board’s confidence that it would work.
After that, the bank moved even more aggressively into C.D.O.’s. It added to its trading operations and snagged crucial people from competitors.
Yes, it’s incredible that nobody called for Rubin and the board to resign as a condition of the Citibank bailout. But I tend to look at these final days as the BushCo crooks holding their final heist, taking advantage of the fact that something must be done immediately to keep the economy from hurling into a ditch. They have the ability to impede anything from happening, and they’re holding us all hostage and demanding the right to steal as the price of their acquiescence. What’s Obama supposed to do? If he calls bullshit, the fragile markets could tumble. He’s in a position where he really has to just do what he can.
What I’m more concerned about is the key place Rubin still occupies in Team Obama:
Geithner, Summers and Orszag have all been followers of the economic formula that came to be called Rubinomics: balanced budgets, free trade and financial deregulation.
There are many who are arguing that ideology is not important, and that Obama is prizing competence over philosophical perspective. Glenn Greenwald does a nice job of arguing that competence is largely a function of ideology — and from a pragmatic perspective, progressives (who are almost entirely left out of Obama’s key administration appointments) got a lot of things right.
When I argued the other day that Obama was delivering exactly what he’d promised, it wasn’t because I thought the people he was appointing were more "competent" than progressives would have been. There is no way you can make the argument that Nobel laureate Paul Krugman, or Nouriel Roubini, who have been consistently right about the economy and where we were headed, would not be more "competent" than Bob Rubin, one of the high priests of deregulation who got us into this mess.
Rubin is there because he makes the People Who Matter comfortable, who would panic if Krugman were in a position to call high-level bullshit. It has nothing to do with superior competence.



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Who woulda thunk it? Pathetic…
I’m just waiting to see the Jolly Roger hoisted over the Treasury.
this wonderful planning came from one of the largest banks in the world. don’t know how they keep their jobs.
“But I tend to look at these final days as the BushCo crooks holding their final heist, taking advantage of the fact that something must be done immediately to keep the economy from hurling into a ditch. They have the ability to impede anything from happening, and they’re holding us all hostage and demanding the right to steal as the price of their acquiescence. What’s Obama supposed to do? If he calls bullshit, the fragile markets could tumble. He’s in a position where he really has to just do what he can.”
That’s my impression too.
I think…I hope…that we have avoided the ultimate coup just in time with the election of Obama. People complain about all of the Clintonites that are appointed, but..seriously…I was never afraid during the Clinton era..the Bush regime’s coup has finally failed, and we need to ride it out until they are gone. The Bushites would like nothing better than to create a nation of cheap labor for their own devices.
He could start by dumping Rubin as a transition team economic adviser.
So we’re hoping the cheerleaders of Rubinomics, a model we’ve been following for 12 years or so, will see the error of their “philosophical perspective”, become FDR Democrats, instill discipline in their actions and their employees, make drastic changes in government spending priorities, but not raise taxes on the obscenely wealthy, nor close corporate tax loop holes nor require them to pay their fair share. I’m sure it’s work because it’s a change we can believe in.
Housing prices were dropping by 2006.
What did they think was happening?
Did they think a miracle would occur, and suddenly everything would go back to the way it was in the 90s?
Are bankers and economists usually that gullible?
At some point in time, we, the people, would have to begin to wonder if there is any reason to pay bills any longer to corrupt institutions like this. They do not act within the law, they bribe people in government to write laws to protect them. Then they get a bailout and buy another stadium, after they have broken the law yet again, and bankrupted everyone but the CEO, who gets paid a bonus by the bailout for failing in their job.
There is absolute corruption in every branch and phase of our government. It is not worth keeping as it is. They are enabling these corrupt banks to steal anything and everything they can get.
It would not make sense for anyone to pay the bills these people send you now. In that way, our corrupt government, or mafia, would finally have to do something transparent and functional. We would then see if they are capable of such actions. Anyone want to take any bets on what they would do to protect the banks that bribe them?
The absurdity has moved to openly criminal activity. say no.
rubin will fade from the bama team, imo. he be getin real bad press right now.
Obama is not President. So what I want to know is what is CONGRESS going to do? In principle they are supposed to represent us. If we keep looking to a single leader: President/King/Caesar to save us, then we are well and truly screwed.
Where the hell is Congress? Oh I know, eating cocktail weenies and drinking toasts to their pal JoeLie.
Well Roubini has been right. Krugman has been inconsistent. Rubin has been mostly wrong. There is really nothing surprising that Citigroup says it didn’t think that housing prices would ever go down. This is the refrain we have been hearing from everyone on Wall Street and in government: No one could have predicted. Some would call this part of the bubble psychology and it brings up the age old response to this. Were they stupid, greedy, or both? And why should we expect or trust those who created the current financial collapse and who never saw it coming and who so far have reacted poorly to it to fix it?
no one will see the error of their ways. they must be removed from power. it’s a slow process. 47% of the country thinks all was workin well. go figure.
Maybe these People Who Matter will want Paul Krugman at al to inherit the mess, at a certain point. Could Rubin be transitory for the Obama Whitehouse? I hope this is just strategic.
McCain will be giving his presser in a few minutes… Maybe he has come up with a solution for our economic woes…
They not only keep their jobs but get a huge government bailout that amounts to free money. We live in the Age of Stupid where only truly great stupidity is rewarded.
and planning for the next election so they can remain in power. don’t fergit that. other business is possibly considered AFTER their nest is feathered.
boggles the mind.
Everybody was playing the big pyramid game…those at the top get the dough, and everyone on the lower tiers loses. They knew exactly what they were doing, and they still know exactly what they are doing. Many of the middle management people at Citi have lost most or almost most of their investments, because many held Citi stock as most of their stock. It was the fat cats at the top that looked the other way, got off with lots of money, and who have orchestrated their own bailout with their crony friends. Almost Enron.
He didn’t win so he won’t share that stuff. Country First you know. Is there a bank called Country First?
ponzi scheme? isn’t that illegal?
That is a really wonderful image. My own involves Bush giving a goodbye speech with in the background the Republicans stealing the last of the White House fixtures and moving them out in wheelbarrows with a few whisps of smoke here and there as the place catches fire.
They should be investigated.
i can’t wait to hear from that thug.
Exactly. I am seriously tired of hearing how smart Summers, Geithner, and all their little henchmen are. If they were so frickin’ smart, how on earth did things get this bad?
I know smart people. Those guys, are not smart. And bad at math to boot (as in, no one knows the values of derivatives — that can only possibly be due to accounting shenanigans to hide the underlying assets). Hear that Larry — b.a.d. at m.a.t.h. And you’re a guy. Go figure.
Gone With The Wind.
The other thing Citi did was to stop giving pensions to their people some years ago…those before a certain year were grandfathered in and have insurance for their pensions. The employees there now have 401Ks and many have all or most of their shares in Citi stock. I know of people who have lost virtually everything.
My bank was bought by Citibank several years ago, and my credit card changed to a CitiBank card. Before that, the due date for payments was always on the 31st or 1st of the month, but when Citi took over, the due date changed wildly each month, sometimes a week or two early!
The apparent reason for this was to catch unwary customers by surprise. What greed!!!! Even though I had never before had a late fee, sure enough, when I was on a trip (and had arranged for someone to walk in my payment), I was one day off–the deadline was two weeks early that month! I canceled that card so quickly. (Not all Citibank cards are like this, but since then, I’ve warned others to beward of this particular lender.)
So when it comes to helping CitiGroup out of a tough spot–ABSOLUTELY NO! They have demonstrated a greed that is truly remarkable.
Looks like his office is in a strip-mall.
Someone called into Washington Journal this morning and said pretty much the same thing.
Yeah, the scene of Atlanta burning and the buildings collapsing.
1,837 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Hamsher and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
Of course what is happenin’ now is the final assault on the treasury by those who brought us the depressions in 1929 and 2008. That Rbt Rubin should be the head of the largest of the banking crime organizations and by virtue of his political and social contacts in the oligarchy is able to partake of the last supper of direct transfers through the treasury to those who brought us this mess (AND two wars in the middle east) should come as no surprise to anyone. But I am less worried about the Rubin-Greenspan-Rand acholytes runnin’ the treasury bureaucracy than I am of Obama not followin’ through on repealin’ the Bush tax breaks and not askin’ for $700+ billion in the stimulus.
The repeal of the Bush tax cuts, a middle class tax reduction and a reduction of 1% in the FICA tax with concurrent liftin’ of the income cap on Social Security taxes if done in the first 100 days would put the budget battles to bed and allow Obama to expend his still considerable political capital on health care and the Employee Free Choice Act. The increase in revenue from the liftin’of the SS cap and the elimination of the Bush tax cuts would get Obama to 2012 without fightin’ another tax and budget battle. If you add peace in Iraq and a settlement in Palestine to the mix, you get quite enough revenue to put the oligarchy outta business for at least a couple a decades and create a new sustainable economy.
If Obama does this or somethin’ close to it in the first Congress, we won’t hafta worry about a resurection of the fascist party and the dialectic will be beween and among DEMOCRATS for a generation.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THE STRUGGLE IS EVERYTHING!!
Photoshop!
don’t think it took a lot of smarts to figure the math. i could do it. what it took, imo, was a certain ability to speak truth to power. most folks at that level are there bc they play the game.
reminds me of enron. they are criminals in suits, imo.
Maybe Bush’s library should be named Lee’s Revenge.
I hope he/she would hire as interns those 6 Shiba Inus on Puppy Cam. Much merriment.
The new Obama economy could be called Oax Democratica!
PAX Democratica
McCain: “I think Governor Palin’s future in the Republican Party is very bright…”
Never would have occurred to me to use “Palin” and “bright” in the same sentence.
I’m still waiting for some outrage over Citi spending $400 million for “naming rights” to the new Mets’ stadium. Someone wrote on another thread that their state, Washington, just cut $700 million from its education budget for the entire state.
Could we please have that $400 million back and apply it to something worth “saving”? Or could we just deduct it from the $$$$$$$$$$$$$ being sent to Citi?
And while we’re at it, could we get a “refund” on the executive salaries, bonuses & stock options as well?
Rubin is part of the Clinton/Bush era. He also is not stupid. To say that Citigroup did not reserve for or plan for any downside in the housing market is a fact. Looking at their mortgages as inventory, citigroup simply did a management override of what is logical or plausible in the context of financial analysis. Is this fraud in terms of how Citigroup valued its inventory? Ask Rubin why he and the Clintons and the Bushes were for the business model they followed?
she is quite smart, ya know. just in the wrong way.
I never thought corporations were evil, as many think.
They are, however, run by incredibly stupid people who hire even stupider people underneath them. They are dangerous, mostly due to incompetence and believing in fairy tales known as “the market is infallible, and housing prices never will go down.”.
Mr. Obama should fire Rubin from his economic team, mainly because Rubin is one of those DLC, worship the market Dems. He also lobbied hard for Clinton to sign the dreaded Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, which is highly responsible for this mess we’re in.
“OAX” is good too, albeit somewhat cryptic. The residents of Oaxaca will be pleased, if somewhat mystified.
I think they really thought it would never end..they were driven by seemingly unending greed gratification….but pyramid schemes always do..and quite suddenly to boot.
Maybe W was right when he said that Wall Street was drunk.
I could maybe envision her as Turkey Queen.
it was the old las vegas skimming model they followed. nothin more. ride that horse inta the ground then get off. just business, ya know.
Thanks Jane.
Thanks to GeorgeClymer for opening up the digg
They aren’t evil… I agree. I think they are addicted to power and money and it is a big drug. Maybe they want to stop, but they can’t, and they are living so way beyond their means because of it, and they can’t get off the merry-go-round, so they just keep going and it escalates until….they hit bottom..and they take the whole shebang with them.
think bama will do it (fire) a bit more low key that you wish. it will get done, imo.
While there is certainly plenty of bad debt out there (in no small part due to adjustable rate mortgages), the current crisis has to do with the fact that no one knows what the underlying assets in the derivatives market are worth. The only way for that to be possible is for the folks who created these things to have done so in a way that permitted accounting rules to decouple assets from derivatives, bundle them up, then allow unregulated betting to ensue. All it takes is one failure in the betting market (aka credit default swaps) and you suddenly have a game of musical chairs where everyone is dumping their bets as fast as they can before they get left without a chair. Our financial crisis was precipitated by people either bad at math or more likely corrupt who gamed the system from inside benefiting the guys at the top and stealing from everyone else. Just like the late 1920s, only with a different mechanism of cheating the outsiders.
My bad at math comment was really just a dig at Summers famous accusation that women are bad at math and science. So, which is it Larry — are you bad at math or just garden-variety corrupt?
Obama is going for Clintonistas for their experience in government. The problem is their experience is much the same as the John McCain variety. They have experience yes, but mostly about being wrong.
Citigroup was not drunk when it overvalued its inventory on its balance sheet without reserving for any downside in the market. Surely Citigroup was aware that its inventory was overvalued.
One thing that keeps popping up in my mind as a red flag. No one knows what is out there. It seems that the pundits and Paulson, etc., are signaling the worse case scenario in order to pay off their cronies right at the end of the Republican rule…
What if it’s not?
What if it is just smoke and mirrors in order to rip off the country?
No one can apparently prove how bad it is..or how bad it isn’t.
Just sayin’.
I heard that familiar refrain on NPR at lunch “nobody could have known.” How many times have we heard that recently?
Here’s a couple of people who saw it coming:
Blue Texan upstairs with an update on the Georgia Senate run-off
Not Citi in total…just the few at the top who are profiting and trying to emass personal wealth. The rest of the company had TOTAL faith in the company. My best friend is an ex-Exec VP of Citi. The employees are stunned at what has happened.
when this dereg happened it was done at a time of econ excess. no one thought to look at the math bc the us was on a roll. lack of oversight, imo. congress not doin their job. they were bought off. schmoozed, etc.
i’m sure they did. just greedy.
IANAL but I would think that this is the point, or at least one of them, where the element of fraud enters in. Once they knew they needed to revise their projections and financial statements, basically inform their investors of the changed conditions. Hiding or delaying this is where I think the fraud would come in.
I would also think that just generally they were criminally negligent in their fiduciary responsibility to their investors by not taking downside risks into account.
Will he announce that he’s suspending his campaign for the second time?
see, their compensation is partly based on share price. that is why they only look to the up side and why they make the big bucks by workin the system.
It’s bad but you’re right we don’t know how bad it is because Paulson and Bernanke have made no effort to force banks to declare the extent of their losses and exposures. They are afraid that if the banks did it would become apparent to everyone that the whole system is insolvent.
i am hopin fer a stock holder class action in that regard.
I don’t think that such actions have been very successful up to now. Judges tend to rule that investors have no standing.
can you site a “no standing”? hard to believe. who else would be harmed in the first instance but stock holders? then us ,of course.
Except that there were regulators who knew at the time that there was a real underlying problem. They tried to get Summers and the rest of Clinton administration and Congress to do something about it. Those advocating regulation of the CDO market were shot down in a spectacularly bipartisan way. So to suggest “no one thought to look” is simply not true.
I think they knew. It was widely known just not widely publicized. The cheap money kept going and the bad models kept being churned out. Until it didn’t and they claimed with some small amount of plausibility that they didn’t know. Except they did know because emails have come out and whistleblowers have said they knew the models were crap. The fact that it was not widely publicized unless you were looking for it makes it seem plausible that they didn’t know but they are lying. They most definitly knew.
They were giving loans to people with no income, no job and no assets and then assuming that those loans with very high rates of interest to liars were going to have the same rate of default as the whole history of mortgages given to people with jobs and good credit and 20% down payment. It is not plausible they didn’t know. There was never any evidence that housing would continue to rise. None. So every model was predicated on an assumption that was bogus and they had to know it because there was no evidence that housing would continue to rise forever indefinitely into the stratosphere.
Housing prices were and in some places still are totally decoupled from income. Even an idiot can see that the boom was created by cheap loose money and lax lending standards. Even a bubble created on these factors has to one day slow down. There are not an infinite number of people that will buy a house they can’t afford. There weren’t then and there certainly are not now.
If I can see it where I am certainly these Harvard MBAs and Phds saw it too. I was in the market for a house in 2006 and didn’t buy because the houses were overpriced. You could rent a similar property for less than half. At that point it is a no brainer. I am richer for having rented because that money I save is guaranteed. I don’t have to wait for the market to go up and down for 30 years to see it. I have it right now.
The bankers were greedy. It was greed pure and simple.
yes, i have heard that. who was asleep at the switch, in your opinion?
1 in four out of work in the 30’s. Now we are top heavy with insurance agents, investment banking personnel, auto sales people, telephone sanitizers, beauty operators and medical billing specialists (thanks Mr. Adams) Since all of these types of jobs will be decimated, whaddya think? Maybe 1 out of 3 people out of work due to the collapse? No banks are lending money to people now. The crash has happened even if the effects haven’t hit home yet. If you haven’t realized it, this is a depression we have coming. Illinois is near bankruptcy, but the feds are bailing out crooks that stole the money to donate to the GOP.
come on, look at it from a logical point of view. It is a house of cards and the man behind the curtain has a flamethrower.
What got my attention was some reports that plenty of community banks have plenty of money and are lending…someone testified to that effect at a hearing the other day. The lack of disclosure from the biggies makes me suspicious…what if they aren’t insolvent? What if they are just holding back in order to get money? Without disclosure and transparency…everything they are saying is just “words”. How do we know what is true and what isn’t? It sure wouldn’t be the first time to not disclose something in order to claim that they never knew what was really there.
I think it stinks. Heh.
So I think it is a bit much to be worried about where Rubin fits in to “Team Obama”. Obama is not going to put up with any of this crap. It would have behooved those now worried about Rubin in the context of Obama to have worried more about how Rubin fit into Team Clinton/Bush who gamed the system for all it is/was worth. The deregulation of the Clinton/Bush era came from the top: The Clintons and then followed by Bush.
there must be recourse for those harmed. just don’t know where it will come from.
Someone has to look at the books. Someone has to look at the books and determine the actual situation these people are in. I don’t think anyone has looked at the books of the Big 3 or Citi or anyone else. That is what makes me suspicious. All of the claims that we must give so and so money or the sky will fall.
Sounds like the
countryworld is being mugged.No one was sleeping — a better analogy would be coke-heads at a party, they didn’t care where the coke came from, how it got there, or who got hurt along the way, so long as they could keep partyin’.
Wouldn’t you at least audit a company before you gave them billions of dollars? How do you know what the hell you are doing if you don’t know the numbers?
When former gov. Spitzer and AGs across the country were being denied the ability to stop predatory practices I don’t think there was anyone asleep at the switch. Just a bunch of thugs guarding the switch so no one could throw it.
that’s the problem. incompetence is hard to prove.
now you are talkin like shelby. frankly, i would like to do just that. i don’t believe any of the bastards.
Exactly. The horror and judgment of hooker activity is so much more damaging than dealing with those that are destroying the economy of the globe.
Yeah, I think it’s really interesting that the smaller banks across the country were opposed to the bailout when it was first proposed because it put them at a competitive disadvantage if the government kept the big banks afloat. FWIW, I do think the big banks are insolvent, but they are insolvent because of credit default swaps, not because of the bad mortgages per se (imo and I should clarify I am not an economist). The credit default swaps became an enormous market that from what I can tell was based on Monopoly money. They were private bets and you didn’t need to actually have the assets to cover your side of the bet. So if you lost, you couldn’t pay up. Now as I understand it, the whole point of a hedge fund was to hedge these bets, so you would make a bet with one person that a stock would increase in value, while making another bet with someone else, that it would lose. Without having to possess assets to pay up, the whole thing comes apart as soon as one bank can’t fulfill it’s obligations. So, we are basically bailing out gambling addicts who made bad bets.
Oy. Well, I just don’t trust any single one of ‘em. I don’t see any “evidence” that anyone has seen any “evidence” that there is a bonafide “on the books” problem. That is partly why I think the Citi employees are so stunned.
Let’s see the books of the Big 3 and Citi and AIG and…on and on.
I think they are making this whole thing up. Heh, heh.
That is partly my take on it. The rest is that I think they are further taking advantage of the “dire situation” at the tailend of the Bush regime.
I think there is a heap of BS in there along with their filet mignon.
When it comes to BushCo I think more of fava beans and a fine chianti than filet mignon ; )
Rubin’s got to be hating this. He’s a hard-core deficit hawk, and here his disciples are to a person telling Obama “Screw the deficit, we need stimulus!”
They’re not drowning the government in a bathtub, they’re flushing the economy down a broken drain pipe.
Arr har har – what a lie.
I figured this out when I went to buy my first house 47 miles from my job. It was so way overpriced that taking my parents mortage and the multipler to my mortgage – and applying it to what my kids would have to pay… it came out to something like my kids would need to pay 5 million plus per YEAR for a house.
Pu-leaze
Stupid is as stupid does. Same goes for evil.
Those trillions gone result in famine, pestilance, disease, death.
They tweaked their models to get the result they wanted. But since they were ussing funny models I wonder who was suppose to be fooled by this the bond rating agencies? government regulators? the cable and print business media?
They tweaked their models to get the result they wanted. But since they were ussing funny models I wonder who was suppose to be fooled by this the bond rating agencies? government regulators? the cable and print business media?
- the people all around the world who bought the crap.
“I could take a dump in a box and mark it garunteed…”
- Tommy Boy
The overvaluations and subsequent disasters were due to the top execs having their main eye on the current stock price. If they had created reserves against their inventory of mortgatges, it would immediately have lowered their stock price. These guys are judged minute by minute on how their actions affect stock prices. That’s why they resisted SEC proposals to tighten up the accounting of pension plans. Anything that negatively affected the short-term bottom line was rejected out of hand.
What does this tell us? It tells us that most investors in the market have short time horizons, so planning ahead is often unprofitable for CEO’s. Take the money and run is safer. Of course, it’s musical chairs. You never know when some of the chairs are going to be taken off the floor.
The problem is deeper than Rubin and the CEO’s. It goes to the ease of speculating in the market. Jim Tobin once suggested that international money transfers be subject to a small tax to put sand in the wheels in order to dampen speculative movements. It may be that something similar is required in the equity markets. Investors will howl like hell, but the medicine will be good for them.
One thing that really bothers me about our current market structure is its over-dependence on quarter-to-quarter growth. As has been argued in a multitude of places, we need to curb our excessive consumption. If we actually do that, we need to reorient our markets for sustainability, rather than growth. I have yet to hear anyone talking about sustainable economic models. It’s all about growth (principally in emerging markets), which we know to be unsustainable environmentally. Like peak oil, one can argue how long we can continue with growth-oriented markets, but in the long run we live on a finite planet with finite resources, perhaps we should at least to start contemplating sustainable economic models.
The banks leveraged up to 30 times their assets and they are bust.. can’t pay off their bets.
Banks are bust. They are running now on smoke and mirrors and some fumes tossed at them as low interest loans from the feds.
The model that propelled them into being mega public corporations was bogus. The ponzi scheme worked in the beginning. But as everyone knows ponzi schemes all go bust when the suckers have all been bled dry and there are no more to bleed.
The banking industry and the financial industry is nothing more than ponzi schemes with fancy names.
Why won’t people face the fact that the whole thing needs to be torn apart and built anew?
Right now Paulson is shoveling money at them and they are sucking it up and fiddling away as Rome burns. Not an ounce of contrition – just fire thousands of grunts… Oh and no more color copies.