We’re hearing mumblings about not repealing the Bush era tax cuts for the rich in order to help the economy. This is precisely wrong, and not letting the tax cuts expire and indeed not adding more taxes for the rich is exactly the wrong thing to do for purely pragmatic economic reasons.
The reason isn’t the deficit, though certainly the government needs more money and the best place to get it is from the people who did well during the last 7 years, rather than the people who didn’t get a single raise, the middle class. Rather it has to do with expectations.
Rich people, their accountants, and corporations spend a lot of time thinking about taxes and how to avoid them. They are also capable of understanding the government’s long term economic situation. What they know is that current levels of taxation are below what is needed for the long term fiscal health of the government and the country. Most other western countries tax between 3 to 8 percent more of their GDP than the US does, and the US was in severe deficit even before the huge expenditures related to the financial crisis (of which the bailout is not the largest part, almost 5 trillion has been comitted over the last couple years.)
If you know taxes are going to have to be higher in the future, what you do with money now is you try and pay tax on it now. That means you cash it out now. This is why many corporations paid record dividends all through the 2000′s, rather than reinvesting money in the business: they knew they had to get the money out to their shareholders now. It’s one reason why they paid record salaries and bonuses: they knew they had to pay themselves lots of money now, while it was taxed less, because they knew that in the future they would lose that low tax rate.
What this has meant is that corporations have, in effect, looted themselves instead of reinvesting properly in business. Short term profit has been even more the mantra of the day, because you had to make money and get it out now, while taxes were lower.
Any short term delay in repealing the tax raises will only mean more looting and less reinvestment because the rich will still be able to read a budget statement and know it’s not permanent, no matter what anyone says. The tax cuts need to be repealed as soon as possible to encourage corporations to reinvest and rich people to invest in projects for the long term. Reinvesting for the longer term is good, it’s the sort of money that goes into creating new companies, products and therefore jobs, while short term investment from the rich tends to go into various types of securities games.
Yes, there’ll be slightly less money available for consumption spending, but the rich are lousy at consumption spending anyway. Every dollar given to a poor person or a middle class person provides a lot more short term stimulus than a dollar left in the hands of the rich. And while every dollar less the rich have is a dollar less they can lend to the government, well, if the government has it, they don’t need to borrow it.
So I sincerely suggest that Obama not avoid the repeal of the Bush era taxes on the rich and follow through on his own promise to increase their taxes. It will help the economy, whereas letting them off the hook for taxes will hurt the economy.



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Instead of sincerely suggesting that Obama do something that he won’t do, time would probably be better spent figuring out the next announcement of another way that his prez will be just like Bush-Clinton-Bush.
Good evening everyone
What? Are you saying that Obama is the sort of person to go back on promises made during his election campaign, and that he isn’t the sort of person who upon being reminded of them might think “perhaps I should do what I promised”, especially if given good reasons to do so that refute the arguments his advisers are undoubtedly making?
Dugg
Everybody must pay their fair share. If the argument that the rich create jobs becaus ethey have the ability to do so via low taxes, I’ve seen scant evidence of job creation in the last few months.
Of course, that old canard is moldering on the dust heap. Job creation is a matter of consumer demand, and as now, when earnings do not allow for discretionary spending, no jobs.
Tax the fuck out of the rich post-haste. And, if one day, I find myself in the ranks of the rich (due to my hard work and dilligence) tax the fuck out of me too! I ain’t scared of paying my share.
oooh (((((katymine)))) how ya doing ?!?!
soooo many of the firedogs have been asking after ya
Look if we don’t keep the tax cuts for the wealthy, we will be denying them money needed to finance the next economic bubble. Think of the consequences.
King Larry.
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsme…..ing_larry/
Scowcroft’s the guy. Which is why I had to include HW in my comment.
http://online.wsj.com/article/…..51435.html
OTOH, think of it as a creativity incentive. If we tax away their ill-gotten gains, they’ll have to invent a new way to make them back.
Bubble either way.
AM Radio reports: Mitt Romney applauds Obama’s picks for treasury sec. and Fed Chair. Republican Romney says he knows both of these guys personally and they are way cool.
What’s this about a frb chair pick? Bernanke’s term isn’t up until 09 or 10. Did he announce he’s stepping down?
another thing — rich Americans’ consumption spending is not like regular Americans’ consumption spending. It’s not all spent in America.
The Hoovering must stop now. And yes, I did mean the pun.
I’ve seen scant evidence of job creation in the last 8 years. From my scandals list:
I know, let’s call it a Profit License instead of a tax.
Hey, rich people create lots of jobs! How many was it on the McCain’s household staff?
Its been a ruff week and still in hospital right now. They have good wireless….. I tried out every one of the side effects just to see what they felt like….. how someone can gain 12 lbs in 5 days….. feel like the Michelin man…. probably going home tomorrow as all my labs are resolving…..
My mistake. Its Summers and the other Clinton retread.
(((katymine)))
Where exactly are all of the jobs the wealthy have been creating? Blackwater? That sure is an impressive building they have in Otay Mesa. In Tijuana, when I asked what the new building was, they told me Mercenarios. Other companies like Blackwater that employ “contractors”? Obama seems to indicate that the shelf-life of those jobs might be really short. Pay your taxes, Eric Prince.
(Hey, katymine. How are you feeling?)
So you mean National Economic Council head. See my link at 8 for King Larry.
when we put it like that it makes it very hard to win the discussion
“for the good of the country, the gifts given to the rich at the expense of America’s infrastructure must be returned, those gifts have brought great harm to this country, her economic futre and her national security”
there, let them try to argue against that
I gained 25 pounds in one month once when I was given prednisone for poison oak. Never a fkn gain.
Hope you are better very soon.
OK. Just finished my homemade brownie for dessert (cake mix kind, but really good). Too depressing here. Gonna finish reading Lord of the Flies to cheer myself up.
slaps forehead – didn’t even think of your Facebook page to leave you a note.
thanks for the news. so very sorry about the damn side effects
mad love to you, Elmore, and loved ones
Ian – as your fangirl fuh life, you know I wouldn’t go off topic unless it was really important
via rmp, bipartisanship you can believe in:
if this is true it might help explain a few things.
Have you noticed how the media is talking up picks like Geithner? They’re saying Wall Street like him as if Wall Steet currently has any credibility at all. Some other dope was opining that you wouldn’t want a new surgeon to come into the middle of an operation. I don’t know about this. If the previous surgical team were a bunch of butchers, I would want, even demand, a new surgeon.
We need to return to Eisenhower-era taxes on the rich. The conservatives are so nostalgic for the 1950s Leave-It-To-Beaver era, let them try living on a dime for every dollar they make. They are lucky to live in a society that lets them make more than five million dollars a year — why should they get to keep more than a dime of it?
Srsly, the debate between 35% and 39% (repeal or expiration of the Bush tax cuts) is not the argument progressives should be having right now. The rich should be made to feel lucky that their children get to inherit anything at all!
Is Romney looking for a spot in Obama’s administration?
Best to you.
Poor people are very stupid. Rich people should actually have more money, because it trickles down. Anything else is socialism.
Geithner and Summers are the two dudes that Romney is very happy about. He knows them both very well. AM radio was on at the liquor store where I heard the report. It sounded like an effort to calm and soothe Wall Street. IOW, since CEO Romney likes them, they’re good for the stock market.
One step at a time, but I agree, yes, I’ve been calling for 50s level taxes for a long time.
As I always say, tax policy is about social engineering. To get out of the current mess we need to stimulate demand and to do this we need to redirect money away from the paper economy and into the real economy, and away from the wealthy into the lower and middle classes
that was Dean Baker’s take on both appointments as well
have you every made brownies cockaigne from joy of cooking? if not, i dare you to try them and then go back to a cake mix.
katymine, so sorry you are going through this, but very glad you have good wifi and can hang out here when you feel like it.
I support taxing the rich because we need to offset the spending Obama has to do to get the economy going. Otherwise the national debt will go higher and the Dollar will drop in value.
Or have the talking heads pushing for the rich to keep their tax cut never heard of inflation and the 70’s.
Giethner, Summers, and Rubin are three guys committed to propping up the house of cards that is the current financial system. Of course, conservatives and Wall Street love anything that doesn’t involve real change so these three are bound to be favorites of theirs.
The problem I see is that Obama by relying on them probably will not do what is necessary to restructure the financial system. That will be bad for us and mean a single term for him.
Tyler Cowan in the NYT doesn’t want to cut taxes for the rich:
from your king larry link:
my bold.
besides not liking their ideology, this is imo a sign of bad management and a recipe for group think.
Why don’t we simply end taxes on the rich? If they are so superior, and their money so productive in their own hands, why should the government steal any of it? Shouldn’t the rich be allowed to use all their own money as they see fit?
http://seekingalpha.com/articl…..-effective
Raise the minimum wage if you want a real stimulus. Lets see the GOP talking heads on the MSM point to any alleged *cough* rise in the Bush economy those tax cuts for the rich Bush gave.
Ask Mark Halperin because he is brilliant and tells us all what to think. The problem is the biased media. People cannot speak truthfully because it gets taken out of context.
You are correct. I agree. However, IF the SEC were to simply enforce existing rules instead of looking the other way, ie: illegal naked short selling warrants NO penalty with these guys, the situation could be improved.
Of course, the Fox is in charge of the henhouse and the Horses are out of the barn. Summers inspired the derrivatives deregulation. He seems like the wrong guy to fix a mess he helped to invent and set as policy.
Not Change we can believe in. Might as well believe in Tinkerbell.
Most of the money was made by the rich. Their taxes should go up to to pay for the costs of the damage they did to the nation.
These are just the men we need for the 1990s.
Living standards dropped for the average person but the rich got richer during Reagen and Bush 2. Under Bill the rich and the middle class got richer, would anyone prefer a dollar invested in the market at the start of Reagen, Bush 2 or Bill’s term?
I think Bill paying the National Debt made our money rise in value and that attracted investment.
Sure we have to spend now to get the economy going but those that can pay should, it would reassure foreign investors that we were serious about getting our budget under control.
The ”center” is relative; it’s wherever a decision maker is most comfortable. For Mr. Cheney, that’s to the right of everywhere. For Mr. Bush, it’s wherever Mr. Cheney is. For Mr. Obama, it’s wherever he is ”right now”. Progressives need to redefine the ”center” as effectively as the Right misdefined it, and make the new president more comfortable accepting change than he would be avoiding it.
Not repealing Mr. Bush’s tax cuts for the most wealthy would be a bad start to his regime. The US government runs on its version of credit card financing, what non-Americans call foreign debt. Furriners who hold that debt will become rather more nervous if Mr. Obama fails to show them he intends to raise the tax revenue needed to pay them back, as well as to meet his other, naturally less important, commitments.
Mr. Obama may have credit. But he inherits a government that Mr. Bush, with his Harvard MBA, ran into the financial ground (as he did every other organization he’s been put in charge). Mr. Obama will run out of financial credit quickly if he fails to raise the revenue necessary to operate his government. He will run out of political credit more quickly, if demonstrate to those who Voted for Change that he didn’t mean it.
Thanks.
lol, maybe not even the ’90s.
I don’t think the GOP gets it the financial system will collapse half ass measures will not work. Letting the rich slide from paying is not an option unless you want America to slip into second world status.
I’m sure the rich in England made the same arguments the GOP did after WW2.
We should learn from their failure to hold their empire.
There was another shift in investing, instead of employers providing pensions the shift was employees investing in 401K’s which were based in the stock market….. some employers matched funds and many others didn’t……
so with the rise and fall of the markets, workers now do not have that security of that old pension sitting there safely managed BUT then with the loosening of regulations and how easy employers can bail on those pension made them toilet paper…… so sad because both my parents and grandparents lived long full lives following retirement on their pensions…….
When rich people turn on each other, it can get ugly. Billionaire Steve Forbes does have more money than Hanky Paulson. So that means Forbes knows more. Money does not talk, it screams, someone said.
from the hearings i listened to last week, i’m not sure that many congressional dems do either.
Agreed yes that was a factor in the growth of the economy and market. I think that stocks should be regulated like pension funds. Hedgefunds, leveraged investments, and funny home loans should be avoided.
Heck under Bush I’m not sure any investment is trustworthy. The system needs a makeover investors from around the world, people who want to save for retirement should feel that they can trust us with their money.
So Ian, you’re saying lets not starve the EMTs in the time of disaster? I’m with you. But evidently the Randian/trickle-down nitwits are going to hole up in some Alamo fantasy. I watched a clip of Cavuto/Ben Stein a minute ago. Stein, jerk that he is, has his hair on fire and tried to burn Cavuto down. If this Citibank “event” doesn’t scare the shit out of those morons, maybe the domino collapse of most US municipalities will.
That’s the thing about Anciens Régimes. They refuse to adapt. It is very reminiscent of Lucifer’s attitude in Paradise Lost:
They would rather own the rubble than give up an iota of their control.
Ouch that hurts but I agree nobody is doing the homework you should be doing on this issue. I think the Lobbyist just tell both sides what to think and what bills to pass and what should be in the bills.
Then the Press just rolls over and agrees with the Current Wisdom.
LOL The GOP slogan!
Its to late to stop a suicide after they jump.
Actually looking up the quote that should read:
(((katymine))) sooooo good to see you.
F*ck Clinton error tax rates….. I want to go back to the pre-Reagan Tax rates…… Or Kennedy tax rates……. Those who use the most of Americas infastructure have to pay not only their fair share….. the part that they didn’t pay for years…..
Why do so many American companies do not pay ANY income tax?
Why do so many receive “rebates” from the government and are actually making money on us?
I agree with that. Their portfolios are just short of worthless and they believe a little good news from the administration will change that.
But if you are a slave to Greed, Ignorance and Pride can you still be said to be in control?
If you cannot rule yourself well maybe then is when you rule in hell?
Hell is uncontrolled self destructive desire then? Guided by ignorance and justified by very self serving reason?
I’m good with that.
If God is all knowing then Bush was the AntiChrist?
two all day hearings on the auto industry and all congress can do is ask the industry ceos to write their own plan.
previous hearings on the importance of an effective and immediate stimulus package, and a letter from almost 400 economists this week stating same. congress goes on vacation.
and finally on thursday a hearing on regulating otc derivatives is spent mostly on intra-agency fighting over jurisdiction.
That was quite the cast of characters.
that’s right! i’d forgotten that you listened too.
it was especially frustrating after reading some old hearings from ’90s – the same shit is still being discussed almost as though it’s a new issue that they are just starting to think about.
Well, they probably hadn’t thought about it since those hearings in the 90s and now there’s a whole new cast of misfits.
Hope
Dugg
The Dems who are calling for a massive stimulus package are, in the same breath, saying that means we may have to delay repealing the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy. This makes no sense unless what they are really saying is that in order to get Republicans to go along with a stimulus package of hundreds of billions of dollars, they’ll let the Repubs keep their tax cuts.
not only for the economy but why are we giving tax cuts to people that have taken the jobs out of this country that is why we are having some of the problems we are these people are getting billions of dollars and paying workers in foreign countries and this country is currently living on unemployment