James Bamford’s The Shadow Factory: The Ultra-Secret NSA from 9/11 to the Eavesdropping on America got big press when it came out last month for its on-the-record confirmations from former NSA employees that the warrantless wiretap program collected intercepts from Americans. For example, Arabic voice interceptor David Faulk describes a friend being ordered to transcribe the calls of Americans in the Green Zone.
"And the calls were all in English, they were all American, and the guy goes back to his supervisor, a warrant officer, and says, ‘Sir, these people are all Americans–are there any [prohibitions against tapping Americans] here?’ He said, ‘No, just transcribe them, that’s an order, transcribe everything.’" According to Faulk, the calls included intimate conversations both within the Green Zone and to people back in the U.S. "There were people having affairs inside the Green Zone, talking about their meet-ups, just all kinds of stuff. And he transcribed everything word for word, and it just disappeared into the big NSA black hole. These were military, civilians, contractors. A lot of these people were having personal phone calls, calling their families back home, having all kinds of personal discussions, and everything just disappeared somewhere; someone’s got it."
And Arabic linguist Adrienne Kinne describes how NGOs and journalists got swallowed up into the list of those permanently targeted for interception.
"As time went on we just saw the queue and it would just fill up with a lot of NGOs and humanitarian organizations and journalists," said Adrienne Kinne. While the journalists and others were originally picked up at random, once in the system they then became permanent targets. "It’s random at first, but once it’s identified and you know who it is, the system is programmed to intercept those cuts and send it into the system at whatever priority we designated it as."
Bamford–whose 1982 Puzzle Palace offered the first detailed expose of the NSA–places those revelations into the larger narrative of how our country returned to the excessive, abusive–and illegal–domestic wiretapping that had preceded the passage of FISA in 1978.
The book tells how the NSA, out of an abundance of caution, did not identify American contacts with a known Al Qaeda operations center, though it had legal means to do. As a result, the government failed to track down the operatives who had contacted the ops center, Nawaf al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Midhar, before they helped fly American flight 77 into the Pentagon. Bamford describes how, in response to that attack, the NSA massively expanded its data mining and wiretapping programs, sweeping up more data than it could analyze. He describes some of the ethically problematic intelligence contractors that capitalized off this gold mine, both in the US and around the world. And he describes how the Bush Administration mobilized fear and lies–particularly about its failures to use wiretaps to find two American soldiers kidnapped in Iraq–to retroactively legalize all of this illegal spying.
That narrative is familiar to most regular readers of this blog. Told by Bamford, it accomplishes several things. First, his long engagement with the NSA gives the narrative a fair tone. Bamford repeatedly calls the agency and the Administration on their lies (that they didn’t have the legal authority to get the American side of the contacts with the Al Qaeda ops center, that they didn’t wiretap the suspected kidnappers of the Americans in Iraq because approval to do so took too long), but he also gives a fair presentation of the views of Michael Hayden, head of NSA before 9/11 and now head of the CIA. As someone who has tried to persuade others about these issues, Bamford’s balanced perspective is very useful (if you’re still trying to convince conservative family members of the dangers of domestic surveillance, this might make a nice holiday gift).
It’s also a great narrative. In a particularly fascinating series of chapters, Bamford describes how, shortly after the NSA finally realized it had intercepted signals placing Al Qaeda operatives in the country 18 months earlier, the hijackers gathered in Laurel, MD–the NSA’s "company town"–to finalize their preparations.
Hayden must have been shocked. He had at last discovered that Mihdhar, whose conversations they had been recording for the past eighteen months, along with his partner, Hazmi, had been living in the country, on and off, for much of that time. He … must have known how difficult it would be to find them now. They could be almost anywhere.
At that moment, Hayden could have almost seen Atta, Mihdhar, Hazmi, and the others from his eighth-floor window. That same afternoon, the hijackers were having their penultimate summit meeting at their new base, the Valencia Motel in Laurel, Maryland, a shabby truck stop just two miles away from Hayden’s office.
[snip]
Over the next two weeks, the terrorists and the eavesdroppers would coexist in the NSA’s close-knit community like unseeing ghosts. Together, they would eat gooey cheese at Pizza Time, pump iron at Gold’s Gym, and squeeze tomatoes at Safeway. For eighteen months, since the agency first identified Mihdhar and Hazmi as likely al-Qaeda terrorists, NSA analysts had been listening to their phone calls and reading their e-mail; now they were in touching distance. Registered under their real names, they shopped at J.C. Penney and Wal-Mart, bought groceries at Giant Foods, dined at the Food Factory, and banked at the First Union National Bank and the Dime Savings Bank.
That passage was the most powerful image of the book for me. Nothing better conveyed the futility of our huge efforts to intercept our enemies. Not because we don’t have more than enough technical expertise to collect this information–and of course our technological capabilities have only accelerated since 9/11. But because we simply don’t have the management structure in place to weed through and use this information. And, as James Bamford suggests at the end of his book, the increased flood of data, the huge sums spent on contractors, and the increasingly Orwellian nature of our society doesn’t seem to be changing that fact.
Let’s welcome James Bamford to FireDogLake. As always, please take off-topic conversations to other threads.
Related posts:
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- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Ryan Grim: This Is Your Country On Drugs
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James, Welcome to the Lake.
Emptywheel, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
Welcome Mr. Bamford.
Happy to be here — thanks for the nice introduction.
Hi Jim — Haven’t read your book yet, but I’m looking forward to it.
In your experience, how much communication/cooperation was there between the NSA and the intelligence agencies, on the one hand, and the banking regulators charged with anti-money laundering responsibilities relating to counterterrorism efforts, on the other hand?
It may take a few moments for commenters to move over from the last post. Meanwhile, I’d love to hear your comments about two recent revelations. First, that both Obama’s and McCain’s computer systems got hacked during the campaign–apparently by a foreign government. And more recently that Verizon employees had accessed Obama’s call records.
Though the Verizon incident may simply be political snooping, the other clearly isn’t. Is something like this new? Any guesses on which country breached the Obama and McCain computers?
Mr Bamford welcome to FDL. I have not had an opportunity to read your new book but read The Puzzle Palace years ago.
Why does it appear that these people just don’t care anymore? They want the secrets kept of what they do but even when the revelations come out, it is just a “So what? You think you can stop us?” attitude.
Will we ever be able to put the genie back in the bottle on these issues of privacy?
Hi Billyb,
Prior to 9/11 the NSA was very interested in protecting its turf and did not pass on critical information to the CIA, FBI or other agencies. After 9/11 the cooperation greatly improved. The NSA plays a large role in money laundering and targets a great deal of European banking communications but I am not sure how much cooperation there was with U.S. banking regulators.
And also with regards to communication, I can’t help but share my favorite quote from the book:
What is the relationship, now, of our Sigint professionals, with Cheney, particularly since the warrantless wiretap program came out in the way it did?
I don’t know which countries may have hacked into the communications but computer security and information operations is an area where the NSA is trying to take over. There is a great deal of vulnerabilities in the U.S. communications and computer systems, but there is also a big question as to whether NSA should be given this responsibility given its warrantless eavesdropping track record. Verizon is an example of the reality of worker dealing with private communications. I interviewed NSA operators who also listened illegally to calls.
The reason I was interested in the cooperation with banking regulators area has to do with a false statement in the 9/11 Commission Report, actually, 9/11 Commission staff monograph on terrorist financing. Footnote 28 to that monograph falsely stated that before 9/11, the National Money Laundering Strategy did not mention terrorism or its financing. In fact, it was emphasized repeatedly in that document, as well as other banking advisory work relating to money laundering for instance in the Financial Action Task Force’s work.
Was this just an innocent mistake on the part of the 9/11 Commission staff? It seemed like they were trying to paint a picture of a lack of communication between the banking regulators and the counterterrorism people, when in fact there was indeed cooperation. If the 9/11 Commission staff intended to make a false statement on that score, does that deserve investigation?
Mr. Bamford Can you imagine any reasons that the NSA would circumvent FISA when it would come to wiretapping U.S. citizens ?
Have there ever been leaks when the FISA process was being followed
Hi Mr. Bamford. Thanks for the book.
I have to say the number of ways that our communications are collected and analyzed (IXP, Narus rooms, etc) is dizzying. So many independent contractors are now involved in building a better mousetrap, how does any communication remain protected–including those of our intelligence agencies?
dugg right here
Hi Mr. Bamford:
One thing that I took away from your last book, “Body of Secrets” was how the NSA was still fighting the last war. The focus was still on the USSR and the NSA didn’t have enough people in place to even translate the Farsi conversations that they had captured. Has that been corrected? Are there now massive numbers of translators who speak the right language?
Second. I haven’t read this book yet, but I want to know if there were internal struggles within the NSA over providing info that was clearly NOT terrorist related but was classified as National Security related?
I’m wondering if you have heard any stories about info that is business related that was picked up and then delivered to business leaders. I’m especially curious about oil related info and journalism related info.
Hello Mr. Bamford. Thank you for your excellent and courageous work. Can you tell us a little more about the CIA cable to the FBI that was quashed by Tom Wilshire of the Bin Laden unit and what Mark Rossini and Doug Miller, detailees from the FBI were prevented from talking about for the NOVA documentary that’s coming in January?
Thanks.
Kyle
Mr. Bamford, a great honor to have you here.
I think a lot of it has to do with the fearmongering that went on. Prior to 9/11 NSA carefully followed the law but after 9/11, perhaps because of their failures, they went to the opposite extreme. I think a lot believe that they are trying to help protect the country but the Constitution and privacy laws are getting in the way. It is the way some look at the world from the inside of NSA looking out. I think eventually the pendulem will swing back.
Question: How much of what is being collected via the eavesdropping on Internet usage is being shared or going to be shared with industry? Are the RIAA and the MPAA going to be handed lists of people who downloaded music or movies?
Hello Mr. Bamford,
I just finished your book, while flying to and from a recent conference, and it was a rather odd experience to be reading and mentally chewing on it while removing my shoes and having my luggage scanned . . .
I, too, was struck by what emptywheel noted at the end of the introduction about the management structure. It got me thinking about the executive branch transition that is under way as well.
If you had to identify a handful of positions that would be most critical to re-submitting the intelligence services to the rule of law, what would they be? DNI? NSA head? mid-level employees who run specific compartmentalized programs?
I have a question about the Mohamad Atta timeline:
From your book The Shadow Factory p. 40:
By six months earlier, do you mean June of 1999? This would place Atta in the US a full year before the official FBI timeline.
In the preceding paragraph, you were talking about Hami remaining in San Diego like a jilted lover after his friend Khalid returned to Yehem to see his new baby daughter. “By December 2000, he had been there almost a year.”
Another area I’m interested in is computing power and capabilities. I know that the NSA has a massive computing budget and hires the most brilliant minds in math as well as computer science. We joke about the NSA listening into conversations, but I know that it is really computers analyzing and parsing words. What was the most amazing computer achievement that you heard about from the NSA? Realtime translations? High def distance listening?
I’m assuming that there are things that you can’t tell us because they are National Security secrets, but what can you tell us?
Even if a President Obama wanted to curtail the wiretapping programs (there’s not evidence to support that yet) how would he be able to cut the contracts to the private companies doing this work?
Whether it was Yardley publishing his expose of the Black Chamber and Nacchio’s references to requests for support after his conviction, it seems once these companies become financially dependent on this work, there’s no way to cut them off.
Anyway ideas of ways we could ween them off of big contracts to wiretap Americans?
Hayden had a very close relationship with Cheney and I have heard that his successor, Gen. Alexander, also has a very close relationship — which is why the NSA got so deeply involved in the warrantless eavesdroping program. I would have preferred having someone like Jim Comey, the deputy at Justice who threatened to resign over the program, running the agencies.
Mr. Bamford, I think you address many more important issues, but in case you want to address this one, I am interested. One of my concerns has been the opportunities for waste/graft within the intelligence communities. Just as one small example, if someone wants someone surveilled, as taxpayers, what oversight is there that the job was done at all, done well or done cost effectively?
Glad to see you here James Bamford. Have the book on order at library, so will be awhile, but have heard interviews. The eavesdropping is both so vast and so targeted it boggles my mind. It makes me wonder if the leaks from the Obama camp recently are the result of someone listening. What do you think he should do about his Blackberry?
What a peon I am, but never speak on phone or write e-mails without wondering if someone is watching and so do a bit of editing.
That’s a really superb question, Peterr.
Wonderful book, I’ve been a big fan since Puzzle Palace, which really shocked my dad, a longtime network engineer in this arena. He couldn’t believe an author could write so much about the NSA then.
I’m very struck by the impression you created of Hayden — before 9/11, he cautiously tended to the edges of the NSA’s activities, curtailing it and almost negligently limiting it so as not to invite Congressional meddling. Afterwards, he scooted way over to the other side, allowing and proposing all kinds of illegalities without regard for constitutionality.
Do you think Hayden was among those professionals very badly affected by guilt at having let 9/11 happen on his watch?
The problem with the 9/11 Commission and NSA’s role in 9/11 is that the commission never looked into NSA. Instead, they focused almost their entire attention on the CIA. So it is hard to determine what connection there was between NSA and the banking regulators regarding money laundering and counter-terrorism.
There was no reason to bypass the FISA Court — out of about 20,000 warrant requests, it has only turned down about three. And even then the NSA can appeal to the FISA Court of Review — which has only heard one case. I don’t know of any leaks from the court, either before 9/11 or after.
Then that seems like a fruitful area for research. Thanks.
oops, I just answered my own question. Six month earlier is still ‘00
Overlooking the NSA: never going to Ft Meade, never interviewing anyone who worked there, never asking for intercepts. Why did the 9/11 commission so overtly not delve into the NSA?
The number of private contractors involved in the process was one of the most surprising — and troubling — things I discovered. I don’t think anyone really has any idea how much of the agency’s eavesdropping is actually being outsourced. There is very little accountability and unless Congress takes a close look at the entir issue, I’m sure it will just grow.
Former top civilian at NSA enable massive spying in role at company called NARUS!
If I might add to speculation about the NSA and the domestic spying. I’d say it has everything to do with the convenience of having the former top civilian employee at the NSA, William Crowell, as a board member at NARUS, the company with a monopoly on carrier-class optical splitters that allowed (allows) the NSA to tap into our national telecommunications infrastructure. AT&T whistleblower Klein exposed all this when he joined the lawsuit against the telecoms as an expert witness.
This is worse surveillance than soviet russia we’re living with now. Will Obama stop this program?
Kyle
Good afternoon Mr. Bamford and thank you for your time. First, congratulations on your book; outstanding effort.
Secondly, my question is one I have long had, but have never received anything close to an answer, one way or the other, on. Well, save for the attorneys working the al-Haramain, Hepting and ACLU cases, who agree that it is very possible. In short, it is my contention that the US Government has executed secret, classified, indemnification agreements with the telephone and internet carriers that were participating in the illegal and unconstitutional programs; thus the reason that the government was so much more concerned with retroactive immunity than the telcos were. The government is on the hook when all is said and done.
Do you have any knowledge or inclination as to the existence of such indemnification arrangements?
Later, when you have time, I think you might find this article interesting on this subject.
http://emptywheel.firedoglake……-immunity/
I’ve always thought that goes to the question of whether Phillip Zelikow was just obnoxious or whether he was deliberately guiding the invsetigation to protect the Bush Administration.
Your figures for contractors was in the 1000s I recall. Sounds like too many for NSA or Congress to keep an eye on.
We had some discussion the other day about the centrality of Israeli contractors doing this work: in addition to Narus (which got a lot of press related to the Kline revelations), you detail about 5 other major Israeli companies doing the US’ (and other governments’) eavesdropping.
To what degree is this a strategy pushed by the government of Israel itself? And what have the politics been like in Congress regarding this?
The problem is very bad when it comes to languages. At the agency’s principal listening post for the Middle East, they had no one who spoke Pashtun during most of the time from 9/11 until at lease 2007.
I have not heard of NSA eavesdropping on foreign companies and then passing competive information to there U.S. competitors. Given that NSA has not found Osama bin Laden yet and has difficulty finding terrorists, I don’t think it is a high priority.
What also comes into play is that usually the government pays the cost of the initial background investigation for TS/SCI (alphabet soup) type clearances, then one the person has them, they walk from the government into a contractor position and get paid significantly more than they made as a GI or civil service employee.
Maybe the NSA and/or Congress just need more wiretaps and computer surveillance.
You have reported that the NSA refused to hand over transcripts of communications between potential terrorist to the head of the Bin Laden unit.
What else can you tell us about this?
What can you tell us about John Bolton’s requests for NSA intercept material when he served as Under Secretary of State for Arms Control and International Security? Were they spying on Powell?
Outsourcing has become one of my chief interests over the past couple of years, not only in NSA, but across the Government. We were initially sold the notion of oursourcing as a cheaper, more flexible way of delivering services — be it baked bread for the Army or translator services for technical projects, but in the end it seems to me it has simply hollowed out Government (Katrina if you will), and sustained a very high level of non-responsibility.
Somehow we need to get a good investigation up and running and look at the hard examples. So many contracts, for instance, have absolutely no quality review in them, nor do they have provisions a contractor must follow law and regulation that would apply if the work were done in house.
I rather laugh, but I think we need to make a hero of the good gray civil servant who has mastered his/her job, keeps up to date, and does it year end year out till they retire.
Welcome James.
I think it’s safe to say the reason why George Bush wanted any surveillance done was not to spy on terrorists….but to spy on his political opponents. Many of us here at the lake have wondered at times if this is why the Dems and the repubs allowed the Bush Regime to get away with their crimes over the years, because they knew the Bush Regime had dirt on them? Could be.
I interviewed Mark Rossini for my book and he said officials within the CIA’s Alec Station forbid Doug Miller’s warning message to FBI headquarters from being sent. Rossini protested within the station but he was also turned down. When we wanted to have him speak to us on camera for PBS NOVA, the FBI turned us down. But there is a chance he may still be on NOVA.
Emptywheel, pls see my earlier comment re. NARUS. I think one way that could help expose and stop the illegal spying is to show how the NSA former #3, their top civilian employee, William Crowell, went to NARUS where he was conveniently well positioned as a boardmember of NARUS to sell the NSA/AT&T and other telecoms around the world their optical splitters and very high end software to filter through massive amounts of calls, and data. This suggests a concerted campaign to gain more and more access to everything be said or written electronically not just in the US but around the world. This is BIG BROTHER writ large. Just my two cents. -Kyle
Many thanks BooRadley, glad to be here.
I believe you mentioned the troubling role of foreign contractors in your excellent interview with Terry Gross of Fresh Air on October 14th.
You mentioned an Israeli company that did the pre-processing of massive amounts of data in which they had to be able to have a back door into the data and the machine because it was their product that was doing the sorting and parsing. I’m sure that our great good friends would never misuse that information, but it would be swell if we could ensure some US centric control over the data. Maybe we allowed that because we have some sort of reciprocal arrangement with them. I’m sure that would be fine with the state of Israel if we were giving their eavesdropping info. :-)
(Ooops, now I’ve probably pissed off two massive intelligence agencies. And here I am an alien on a strange planet!)
The book details not just a one-way path on this, but a revolving door that has folks coming and going between the two, and also between the various contractors.
Mr. Bamford, the Wiretappers’ Ball sounds like it must be quite a trade show. Did you ever get into it yourself, or did you only speak to people who have been there?
That is one of the many unknowns — as well as what is done with everything that is collected, where it is stored, how long it is stored, who will have access to it, and since private industry is so involved in the collection, what access will they have? These questions all need to be answered, but judging from past experience, I wouldn’t hold my breath for Congress to come up with the answers.
Mr. Bamford, you mentioned in one of your earlier books the trouble NSA was having devising a big enough incinerator for the burn bags stuffed with top secret trash.
Have you heard whether their incinerator requirements have kept up with the increased traffic/catch, or has the warrantless wiretapping culture now installed provided a release from the need to burn papers with Americans’ names on them? (/snark)
Mr. Bamford, what an thrill to have you here – thanks to you, EW, and Bev for making this possible.
Over the decades you’ve covered the NSA and other national security agencies, have you had periods when you were concerned different varieties of “national secrets” laws would be used against you to discurage your work?
Also…if this isn’t out of line:… If I lived in the Beltway and were known to do deep investigative work on the surveillance service, I can’t imagine how I’d be able to meet sources, receive info, or receive new contacts without being surveilled….did this aspect of your professional life become more challenging under the Bushies?
I think what really needs to happen is to have another Church Committee-style investigation of the intelligence community, including NSA. Sen. Church was the first chairman of the Senate intelligence committee and his invesgigation lasted over a year and he uncovered about 30 years worth of NSA abuses. There needs to be a similar committee to look into the NSA during the Bush years. I think then there would be enough information to ask the right questions to the right people — director of NSA, DNI, etc.
Which agency has the better wiretapping capability inside the US…NSA or Mossad – or are they one in the same?
There’s been some discussion of that–coming out of HJC. Do you think that Committee is up to the task? Or do you need to run it out of one of the Intell committees?
Thank you Mr. Bamford. I hope we hear from Rossini on NOVA. What about Doug Miller? Did you attempt to interview him as well? Also, do you know who Wilshire’s boss is or was at the time? I’ve been told it’s a guy named Richard Blee, head of Alex Station (Bin Laden Station)? -K
P.S. Great article by Jeff Stein in CQ Quarterly for all who missed it.
http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/sp…..telli.html
I don’t have the book in front of me but Khalid and Nawaf arrived in California in January 2000 and Atta arrived later in 2000 — not before Khalid and Nawaf. Sorry about the confusion.
sorry, I confused myself. Your words were clear.
You reported that the founder of Verint is a fugitive wanted for fraud charges? Where is this person wanted on fraud charges? Who is this and where are they now?
One thing that I found fascinating was when I asked Harry Reid (here at the Lake) who within the teleco or lobbying community was talking to him regarding retroactive immunity.
This is what he said:
And as we know the NSA provides the signal intelligence that is used by the CIA.
I agree with the model of the Church Committee. Over the years I’ve had the chance to talk with Walter Mondale and his staffer who worked on the committee, and they accomplished a good deal, and at least in the first year of the Carter Administration got legislative action in response to the most serious findings. But much has eroded since then, — you have to have some degree of public anger (as there was about Watergate and some aspects of COINTELPRO) to push Congress to take up serious reform.
A Church Commission would be nice, but that’s down the road a piece — if it happens at all.
Meanwhile, the Obama transition team is trying to fill a whole bunch of jobs. Some of the people appointed to them can make it more likely that the agencies will respect the rule of law, while others would be a position to continue skirting or otherwise ignoring the law.
You mentioned James Comey in your comment @23, and your book goes into the whole “bedside confrontation” between Comey and Card/Gonzales over warrantless wiretapping. Would simply putting someone willing to take a stand like that in charge of DNI/NSA/CIA be sufficient? Do the agency Inspectors General and General Counsels play any kind of meaningful role, or are they just window dressing for outsiders?
For one thing I was surprised that NSA still had not developed a computer capability to listen to telephone conversations — it was still being done with humans and earphones. In terms of being surprised by the agency’s computer strength, I was very impressed by the amount of data that was being collected and stored — measured in the mega-petabytes, etc — and computer speeds — measured in the petaflops.
A year ago on this website we were exploring Nacchio’s dealings with NSA and the intelligence community.
At one point Richard Clarke was involved in meetings with Nacchio. Any idea if warrentless wiretapping was part of Clarke’s plan, too? Or were there competing goals within the administration eager to obtain help from telcos?
I think after 9/11 the NSA was flooded with money and as a result they began throwing it at contractors without much evaluation as to their quality of performance or their usefulness. Obama could cut a great deal of this pork away — and probably enhance national security at the same time. NSA has become flooded with data and it needs someone who can narrow the stream and one way would be to greatly trim back on the massive collection and put more focus on language training and analysis. Company are hired and they can also be fired.
There was much more intelligence in the processing of military and diplomatic signals during the 2nd World War than NSA has ever been able to muster with it’s combined computing power and talented workforce.
The problem with intelligence gathering in foreign places since that time has been the lack of direct involvement with the target areas in any meaningful way. You can accomplish only so much from your desk before you have to go into the field. As far as I know, the NSA still depends on its technology to do all the leg work. They focus on excruciating botanical detail and miss the forest. They seem to be ideologically driven, as well. There’s insufficient objectivity. Yes? No?
A key problem I found was the lack of oversight by Congress — and they are the ones who would have to ask those questions.
In the book “The Dark Side” Jane Meyer says that Cheney made it a point to listen to the raw intelligence that didn’t have context or analysis of its credibility or of the speakers and sources. She was amazingly kind to Cheney, implying that listening to this raw intelligence is what made him more and more convinced that he had to go to the dark side to stop threats. She pointed out that these “threats” wouldn’t be classified as credible if they had gone through the normal channels.
To your knowledge did Cheney ever ask for or receive raw signal data directly from the NSA or did he always ask for it from the CIA or FBI? Was this something that Doug Feith did for Cheney? Did Feith or someone close to Cheney work directly with the NSA to get info so they could circumvent the CIA, who weren’t providing them with what they wanted?
Yep. Unless things have changed drastically since I worked AF Accounting offices and DoD acquisition programs, most contracts are written for a fiscal year (or part of a fiscal year) with some number of renewable options for each succeeding fiscal year. Usually max of one year with 3 to 5 option years.
I think Obama will give up his Blackberry. The only saving grace in terms of wondering if your communications are being intercepted is that there is far too much out there for NSA to handle.
I hope there’s another Church Committee, and I hope Cheney lives to see it, since the last one gave him such heartburn.
I wish progressives would start calling this “wireless spying” what it is
it is stealing plain and simple
they are stealing our information
we need protection not to guard secrets we are embarrassed though that is one reason, the real reason is to protect secrets we are most proud
all a warrant does is have someone check to make sure the information they are getting is for legitimate security purposes, and they do not want anyone to tell them they can’t have certain information
without warrants they can steal my manuscript, my business contacts, they can tell what I have payed for my product and what I have charged, they can tell what I am bidding for and what I am abandoning
if I have an idea that will gain 5 percent fuel efficiency they can patent that before I do
if we present the problems like this we would get allot more play then “it violates the constitution” or “they invaded my privacy”
Cleverest line ever on NSA: They look for a needle in a haystack by adding more hay.
Many thanks. Yes, I think Hayden was shocked to see that two of the hijackers were people the agency had been eavesdropping on for several years, and thus feld a degree of guilt about 9/11 for having blown it. I also think he has a history of acceeding to authority rather than standing up to it when he should — as Jim Comey, Bob Mueller (FBI) and others did upon finding out about the warrantless program.
Do you know why Hayden goes up to the Hill in his uniform? I find that quite off-putting, since he heads a civilian agency.
NSA’s departments used to be divided by geography, depending on which foreign countries it was eavesdropping on. Any idea, now that NSA eavesdrops on Americans, whether the NSA partitions the US into separate NSA departments?
I think it was a combination of lazyness — According to Phil Shenhan (sp?) book, The Commission, they didn’t want to drive the 20 miles out to NSA and even when the records were brought to them they never bothered to look. Instead, they wanted to just focus on the much more high profile target — the CIA.
Intimidation.
In reading the book, I was struck by the mixed attitudes of the various mid-level people you describe — only a few of which are publicly identified, for obvious reasons. Others who are not named, however, seem at least as appalled and disgusted by what they see going on around them. For some, it is the obvious mismanagement (both inside government and inside various contractors’ shops) that has them practically twiddling their thumbs and trading IMs all day long. For others, it is the mismanagement that they see in the ranks above them, as vital information gets ignored and non-producing tasks are given priority.
How do you think the rank-and-file of the intelligence community (govt and private contractors both) view the change in administration? Do they see it as a chance to “get things fixed” or are they scared of people heading to hearing rooms and possibly prison?
Spocko – See my @35 above for a possible, if not probable, answer.
I wouldn’t bet on it, given his backing away from his original promice to stand up against immunity for the telecoms and then his decision to vote for it. I hope I’m wrong, but I think he will likely make little changes in the intel community.
At least that is what they told you. ;-) A team that can crack 1024 bit encrypted one time pads should be able to translate a simple phone conversation. Or maybe it really IS like the Simpsons where a room full of people are listening to our conversations! Remind me not to use the word Birthday Party and package in a sentence! (I keed! I keed! I keed because I love.)
I agree with your insightful comment about language training and analysis as critical. I believe you have mentioned in your interviews that MORE data and wider and wider nets actually makes it harder to find information and gets in the way of what we need to focus on. When I hear the people say, “I don’t care if anyone listens to my conversation.” I say to them besides the legal implications of the invasion of your privacy, from a purely practical point of view we shouldn’t be listening to people who aren’t under any suspicion. It takes too many resources to separate the important info from the conversation about old episodes of Star Trek.
And I’m saying that for my good friends who turn Right on Engstrom Rd. everyday on the way to work. (Waves)
Thank you for talking to angry librul leftist cruel bloggers.
Sibel Edmonds, massive illegality by the Bush Crime Family. Musharaff gives gives $100,000 to Hijacker Atta. Riggs Bank an Prince Bandar give $$$ to 9-11 hijackers. Zelikow covers up 9-11 then goes to Irak to keep the bloodbath going. Cheney guides Predator missile into the Pentagon. So many neo-cons keeping so busy.
What other Cheney False Flag ops do you know about?
When one reads that the NSA folks who were listening in to the terrorist were all shopping and spending time in the same neighborhoods, sure makes you wonder if these individuals had access to the NSA’s communications via the back door that was allegedly infiltrated.
Many thanks for your comments. That seems like good speculation. The problem is that very few people have been let in on what the Bush administration promiced the telecoms. In my book, I write about the history of this type of activity — this is the third time the telecoms have secretly cooperated with the government going back to the 1920s. Who knows what they promiced them this time.
Much appreciated.
Mr. Bamford, what do you know about the involvement of ManTech, both as a whole, and specifically as to their massive facility at Ft. Huachuka Arizona? How about as to Eugene Renzi (now deceased) and Rick Renzi?
Yes, I was amazed by the numbers — I can’t recall them off the top of my head but in the book I show how they jumped enormously after 9/11. It would be difficult for anyone to judge the value and worth of each of the contracts.
Yeah, I have some knowledge from litigating against them on illegal wiretaps in criminal cases, and the background you refer to as well historically; all exactly what led me to the hypothesis. There IS a history….
It is hard to say how much it is being pushed by the Israeli government. But I think where so much eavesdropping is being contracted out to private firms, it is critical that Congress look into what foreign connections these firms have. I’m sure NSA would love to have some of its most important U.S. contractors have contracts to eavesdrop on foreign countries.
Yes, having a TS/SCI clearance is one of the most marketable things a person can have — allowing them to walk into most intelligence agency contractor companies.
I agree completely.
Since we know what happened to the CEO of Quest when he questioned his orders to spy without a warrant, I have no doubt that it was a combination of chocolate bars and sticks that kept them in line. (I say chocolate bars because carrots are really not a treat for most people).
There are people in the telcos who are very close to the Bush Administration who I’m sure got assurances in writing. I would think that if they didn’t get their immunity they might have produced those documents. I’m sure that they justified the working with the Bush admin for National Security reasons as well as financial gain in the form of contracts or a holding off of lawsuits. The lesson that the Quest CEO learned was an obvious one that sent a strong message to the others.
I am now aware of NSA being used for political purposes but it is certainly concevable given how much they collect, how little oversight goes on, and how easily they decided to break the FISA law — a law that carries a 5-year prison sentence. Ironically, it was put it place because of Nixon’s use of illegal wiretapping for political purposes.
found them on page 199:
Just arrived so haven’t read the comments. Any ideas about what kind of surveillance was going on that Comey found so objectionable?
I simply think that if the U.S. government is eavesdropping on our communications, it should be the U.S. government and U.S. employees who do it — and are thus held accountable.
arriving late to this beyond fabulous thread
Mr Bamford, Welcome to Firedoglake ! – a genuine honor and pleasure to have you join us – and thank you so much for all your work.
Puzzle Palace anecdote – then husband had an eyes only kind of clearance – went completely crazy when he saw I had brought your book in to the house – had to report it to his overlords – no repercussions thank goodness. but eye opening to his less than informed wife
Yes it is a very swift revolving door. No, never got in (press/writers are banned and heavy security) but did talk to people who were in there.
A few years ago they went from burning the classified trash to turning it into pulp — and then selling the recycled paper to companies for pizza boxes. So next time you get a Dominos, you should try holding the box up to the light.
That. Is. Hilarious. Use that anecdote in your next media interview, I’ll guarantee that they pick it up and use it.
Many thanks for your comments, I’m happy to be here. When I wrote The Puzzle Palace, the NSA and Justice Department did threaten me twice with prosecution. But since I didn’t break any laws, they eventually backed off. I have worry about attempts to hinder my writing, especially during the Bush years, but I just keep writing. Meeting sources is always difficult, and it was especially difficult during the Bush years. On the other hand, the Bush policies have forced a number of people to become whistleblowers who might otherwise have stayed silent.
This is mostly a humorous question, but not completely: Ever run into any problems with the TSA while trying to fly somewhere?
I think the most important factor is the message — perhaps whispered — by Obama to the committees. If he says he doesn’t want such an investigation, I don’t think there will be one. On the other hand, if he does not interfere I know there is some (but not a majority) of movement to have such a committee.
That’s interesting, cbl2.
Wondering whether it was his direct exposure to the book or his wish to protect himself from charges of sharing classified information should you have subsequently quoted something from the book that was still classified.
Do you agree with Sy Hersh that we will see a cascade of whistleblowing on January 21st? Have any of your sources, or not-yet-sources, suggested you get in touch once Bush is out of office?
We did try to interview Doug Miller but, like Rossini, the Justice Department refused to let us talk to him. I wasn’t allowed to mention the name of the head of Alec Station at the time of 9/11 because of the Intelligence Identities Act.
The former NSA employees who went on the record with you–has DOJ come after them yet?
As we come to the end of this Book Salon,
James, Thank you for stopping by the Lake today and spending the afternoon with us discussing your new book.
Emptywheel, Thank you for Hosting today’s great Book Salon.
Everyone, this is a great book, if you haven’t had the chance to read it yet, there is a link above to buy it.
Thanks all.
thank YOU Bev !!!
I’ve got to say, I don’t think anyone can properly understand what the Bush Surveillance State has become without reading this book. I hope anyone who hasn’t read it will do so. It opened my eyes, and I thought I knew pretty much what was worth knowing.
Thanks for this chat today, Mr Banford, and thank you emptywheel.
I agree that more would need to be done but there is little time here for a full discussion. Unfortunately, the trend has been going in the opposite direction. The Intelligence Oversight Board, for example, was recently moved from the President’s Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board over to the DNI — again, the chickens guarding the hen house.
Thank you Mr Bamford for joining us this afternoon and answering so many questions.
Thank you emptywheel for the nice write-up and hosting things.
And once again thank you Bev for bringing such great authors to us here at FDL (as he adds another book to the list of must reads – which keeps getting longer and longer all the time)
Good question but I don’t have an answer.
Mr Bamford, thanks for being here today and all your years of investigative journalism. Thanks to EW and Bev for bringing us this opportunity.
I’m sorry I didn’t have a chance to answer all the questions — maybe at another time. Many thanks to Bev and Marcy and everyone else at Firedonglake for the opportunity to chat with you.
Mr. Bamford
Thanks for joining us! We’ve all followed the rise of Bush’s surveillance state closely; it was an honor to have you join us today.
I’ll take this opportunity to remind everyone to BUY MR. BAMFORD’S BOOK. In order for him to afford to keep doing this kind of work he needs to be funded. Buy the book.
And for whistle blowers to have someone to go to they need people like Mr. Bamford to exist and be knowledgeable. Go. Buy it.
Whistle blowers are some of the most courageous people in the government and it isn’t all movie contracts and Presidential Metal of Freedom awards after you come forward. It’s fear and doubt and preparation of a life of uncertainty, both financially professionally. You are often attacked by the crazy right wing media for being traitors when you are the exact opposite, a patriot of the highest order, someone who serves the constitution and not a man, especially not a man who pretends he is above the law.
I think of the lawyers who stood up to the Bush Admin for what they knew was happening regarding torture. I think of the brilliant math and computer people within the NSA who are deeply troubled by how their work has been perverted when it has been used lawlessly. They are some of the brightest minds of our nation and I know that the ethical issues trouble them. They have worked within a system that has broken its own rules. I hope that with the new administration they have a “Church committee” to go to, but if not I hope that they will seek out Mr. Bamford.
So let’s all make sure Mr. Bamford becomes a well funded author so he can keep doing this kind of work. Of course when the Puzzle Palace is made into a movie he will REALLY be on easy street, but I’ve heard that the script hasn’t been green lighted yet. :-)
Thanks for the book and the visit.
Thanks, ew and BevW.
Any discussion of the marine cable breaks last year?
That shift does not surprise me, nor does it fill me with confidence.
I’m sure if you could work out some time in your schedule, the folks here at FDL would be happy to have you back for a followup chat on what the transition in administrations could mean for the intelligence community.
Thanks for coming!
(And I second what Teddy said about the book @ 111!!)
probably both .
a few years later, I was designated den mother and tour guide for 2 dozen Chinese nationals (we were building them a coupla Fabs) my husband informed his bosses, someone called our company to make sure it was all on the okey doke and I agreed to tell him nothing of my time with them
hindsight tells me it was SigInt
Mr. Bamford, I think they now use NARUS software to datamine. And how convenient their guy Crowell was at NARUS to help make the whole massive domestic spying deal comes together. Have you ever interviewed Crowell about this? Now that would be an interview I’d like to read.