The plot thickens.

The problem here is that folks haven’t been buying cars from these companies pre-potential-bankruptcy. So it seems the Big 3 are trying to build a case on very shaky ground. I think I get the economic realities here and the need to do something heroic (whatever that means) for the U.S. auto industry, but there is the little voice that whispers, “Yeah, but this is pouring money down the CEOs’ rat hole.” Because they’re the only ones who have sucked bucks out this foundering industry.

Horrifying. Looks like the new New Deal will be massive public works projects to benefit the rich a la wall street bailout. Nevermind those working people.

Folks won’t buy cars from bankrupt companies

I didn’t think folks would buy tickets from bankrupt airlines but they did. This is a bigger commitment, though, since it would be reasonable to worry about warranty work and parts in the future.

and why couldn’t the bankrupcy judge find the union contracts one of the bills that have to be honored?

Passengers were relying on govt regulation of airline safety, which had been in effect for quite some time and seems to be effective. Govt role in vehicle warrantys would be new & therefore not trusted. Furthermore, a flight is transitory. Buying a car is a multiyear commitment. So I think the two situations are not at all comparable.

You are so freaking smart.

((((barbara))))
*blushing*

It sounds like the pre-packaged deal would still rely on some government funding, so, really, why not just do the bailout?

Maybe you’re right. But then what do we have?

Because that wouldn’t break the union.

Why is Paulson so frantically obstinate about not using some of the TARP money as that bridge-loan to the big 3 auto makers? He acts like it’s his own to spend as HE determines.

I’ve been reading all I can find on Paulson and my opinion of him gets lower and lower. Superman of Flim-Flam!

The powers that be will make sure the case is heard by a judge who won’t honor union contracts.

I don’t know anything about how bankruptcy judges get their jobs or how cases as assigned, so my comment is a strictly political one. However it actually works, the political agenda is clear and they’ll figure out a way to get it done.

Why is Paulson so frantically obstinate about not using some of the TARP money as that bridge-loan to the big 3 auto makers? He acts like it’s his own to spend as HE determines.

bingo, he already promised this money to his pals, the LAST thing he wants to do is help a production based model, he’s ONLY interested in helping investment based models

Obama’s team are simply exploring options. Everything is now on the table. We will probably be getting a lot of conflicting reports over the next week or so as the Titanic continues to take on water. Publicly financed health care is going to be a critical component to the government response to the Depression. People lose their jobs, they lose their coverage; the firms that go bankrupt without sufficient insurance reserves stop covering retirees, and so on. Terrible that a national emergency is necessary to do what is sensible. Same thing got the US out of Depression in 1939-42.

Because he wants to break the union.

This is the third comment in a row where I’ve said the agenda is to break the union. It’s the answer to all the questions and if you view that as the agenda everything makes sense.

Question,would bankruptcy cause these companies to fold?
Several large companies have filed over the years and have emerged as stronger and more competetive

in that case the bailout deal has to include the clause plain and simple

obama is our president and he’s supposed to be a union president, the union movement got him elected

he simply needs to say he’s not approving any plan that rescinds corporate obligations to their labor force

well if we are lucky, this is another parallel to FDR – Rainbow 5

- his contingency plans for war on Germany, denied, denied, denied of course, but leaked (some scholars say by FDR himself) by the Chicago Tribune 4 days before Pearl Harbor

wonder if obama could use support for universal healthcare (even single payer, don’t i wish) as thequid pro quo bargaining chip for helping out the big three….

When I said breaking the union is the agenda, I mean it’s also Obama’s agenda. I have no evidence for that yet, but a priori I see no reason why he won’t turn his back on his union supporters (comity with the rabid anti-union right, dontcha know) just like he’s successively turning his back on all his other supporters.

I thought that the $700B was to be released in traunches where congress would have to approve. Unless they have pulled another sneaky there should be quite a bit left.

obama wanting to break the union would really surprise me, and i’m not all that happy with his decisions so far, but am still willing to give the guy the benefit of the doubt. i mean, he isn’t even in the WH yet (far too white for far too long). Holdjer fire there, cowboy.

Obama will not be president until 20 Jan 2009. He has no real power other than the power of persuasion. Paulson et al want this settled well before then. As eCAHN and others have said this is Wall Street and the auto industry’s best opportunity to destroy the UAW and bankrupt the US Treasury.

saw a figure tuesday to indicate there’s $350B in the cookie jar – nyt

Jay Leno remarked last night that the Congress was demanding that the Big 3 come up with a real plan before they get any money. So he wondered why hadn’t the Congress demanded such a plan before giving away $700 billion to Paulson. The amount of hypocrisy in this on all sides is staggering. The financial community, Congress, and the Administation are the most fiscally irresponsible players around by far, but they get all sniffy when it comes to a major American industry. And yes most of the corporate leadership should be canned but it should not be up to them alone to come up with a plan. Congress should lay out what it wants the American auto industry to do. But it is so much easier to lay the responsibility off on to someone and something else.

This is one of the most serious problems we face and I don’t mean the Detroit bailout. It is that, facing the worst economic situation most of us have ever seen, we have a political Establishment (Bush, Obama, Congress) that is incapable of taking measured, thoughtful action on anything.

I’m not trying to be contrarian or obtuse here. But it seems to me it boils down to this.

One of America’s largest industries (with respect to employment, anyway) has been foundering for years as foreign auto manufacturers moved cutting edge re size, mileage, eco-friendliness of vehicles. As gas prices rocketed upwards, the big American “duh-oh” took hold and gained clarity.

The Big 3 have steadfastly clung to same old, same old, eating the dust of (primarily) the Japanese.

Now we have a calamitous situation where the major employer (and generator of peripheral industry jobs) is poised to tank.

So the government infuses cash into the foundering industry. Which buys a little bit of time to . . . what???

It seems to me (and remember, I am not the brightest bulb in the pack) that this is a mobius situation. I can see no scenario that suggests the U.S. auto industry is poised, poising to do what it should have been doing for at least a decade, i.e., manufacturing for current times and future needs. And so it loops around endlessly.

Help me understand how this can possibly work without constant infusion of U.S. cash while the clock keeps ticking?

I said I had no evidence of that particular yet, just looking at the pattern.

That’s the first indicator of the Obama administration’s governance – whether he supports the unions or not. I thought it would come later with the attempt to pass EFCA, but here’s an earlier read.

more than half left, if i’m not mistaken. yesterday i heard some scuttlebutt that congress was considering witholding all the rest from paulson as they didn’t think he’d done f**kall with what he’s had so far. gave me hope.

then obama needs to make a speech to the democrats, this deal must be done without rescinding corporate obligations to labor.

simple stuff, the democrats can draw their line in the sand against obama or they can work with him, or obama can reneg his obligation to the labor movement before he even takes office

In reguards to a ‘past post’ about certain individuals that are shorting auto stocks..does anyone know any more buzz? I have seen nothing on network news about this illeagal scheme. Many insiders including pols and suits alike could let a huge part of the economy fail just to make a few billion. Bailed out AIG would be a big player in this crime.

Blush if you must.

We are so-o-o fortunate to have your wisdom at the Lake. No snark.

(((((ECAHN)))))

exactly–here’s a comment i made in the last thread.

thanks jane (edit-and ian) for addressing what i consider to be the main point in all of this—getting rid of unions once and for all.

back in the 80’s i was involved in the communications workers of america. steward and 1 of 8 members of the safety committee. 4 union reps, 4 company reps.

waaaaay back then, at workshops and training, how companies were disassembling unions and how they are doing it was covered over and over again. 25 years later we are here. the plan carried out exactly as planned.

noone listened, a backlash amongst workers was created and anti-union propaganda won. the ‘why should someone else be getting something you’re not’ meme. the auto industry has always been their best line of attack against union workers, only they have to put the industry under to get rid of the union. big and shiny new industry will replace it.and now mitt romney is on news shows spouting verbatim the plan i heard back then. bringing to mind the old saying ‘we end as we begin.’ so they have.

the union movement began in an atmosphere of greed/bottom line, safety issues and job security. it ends as it began.

i know…. they all do tend to look likea bunch of crazies these days, don’t they. wonder how they’d score on the national civics test?

I agree on the difference and yet I was still surprised when passengers would book tickets months ahead on bankrupt airlines, so I’m just saying there’s always room for surprises here. For example, just how low would they have to drop the prices for the final “clearance” if the car companies do go belly up and people are buying when they don’t know what the future will be for parts and warranty work? 20%? 40%? 80%?

Congress must approve giving out that portion and is not happy with the way Paulson has conducted himself in this. This point was succinctly pointed out by Barney Frank in his comments at the presser yesterday.

thas o.k. Truth in labeling makes it good to chew on as a “just let’s suppose” morsel.

Saw on one of the news shows that Paulson said he would “only” use the first $350B.

believe the avg score for “public officials” was 44% – yeah, I know, I’m shocked as well :D

Here’s the thing about the big three that i don’t hear much…. theyve clung to manufacturing these behemoth cars offering the excuse that it’s what the consumer wants. But sales numbers refute that. The japs are outselling them by leaps and bounds. The reason they’ve continued to manufacture these cars (aside from their ties to Big Oil) is the the PROFIT margin on those cars is higher…– pure greed. And look where it’s got them. NOT the workers’ fault. So how to punish the CEOs without punishing the workers — that’s the question.

My notion is that on criterion for bailing them out is that all the CEOs have to resign, no dinero for them. Have workers elect new CEOs. voila

I’m all for transitory modes of transit in the transition.

Republican obstruction of any kind of Detroit bailout is based on a number of reasons, one of course is breaking the unions. But Republicans consider this a win-win-win situation. Not only can they break the unions if the Big Three fail, they get huge economic devastation that will occur on Obama’s watch and that they can run against in two years. Meanwhile they can keep redistributing the wealth upwards with the $700 billion taxpayer bailout to Wall Street.

I’m going to say just what I said elsewhere last night. All the people slavering for bloodletting by the Big 3 are as much to blame as anyone for the condition of the car companies. They’re the ones that bought the Hummers, Escalades, Expositions and other massive pieces of iron that Detroit was producing. Detroit happily produced them as they were highly profitable. Now they cry that Detroit gave them no options. Somehow, I don’t think that guy sitting next to me in a Hummer at the stop light was secretly pining for an American Prius. The big truck/SUV segments of the market were booming before the gasoline price shock, and now many people are saying that Detroit was to blame for their buying these behemoths. Please. As I said elsewhere, it seems hypocrisy and self-righteousness are what it takes to be an American.

I’ve bought nothing but small cars whenever I bought new, and I bought American when I was fed up with the vaunted “German quality” that my German-built ’80s Scirocco didn’t give me, so I got an Escort. Lasted me through 14 years of abuse, which was admirable considering what I put it through. I have a Corolla now simply because it had a lot of space inside and good mileage, and the American offerings weren’t as conservative in styling – they seemed to be aimed at younger people.

Stupid question here…

Would China be first in line with parts? seriously. that seems to be what they’ve done with every other bloomin’ thing we thought we had to buy. Look at the labels in the stores. They OWN us.

OT
There’s a wonderful program on Pakistan live on cspan3. Speakers who actually know what they’re talking about, i.e., not USians. Lots of good information that I didn’t know before, like composition of Pak’s army, etc. Also sounds a lot like the US in the sense that the govt ignores the will of the voters. (Judges strike is the best example.)

Thanks Ian.

digg

That’s what I wrote yesterday. Just give the bridge money and have the business plan due on the same date in December.

The bridge money gives some confidence back to the market. The retail season does not get hit as badly and unemployment, although will continue to grow, will not grow as fast and perhaps not as high…seeing as we are at a record unemployment growth rate…

SUVs provided the industry with the largest profit. Each corporate charter spells out that increasing shareholder value is the primary objective of the corporation. Increased SUV sales = higher profits = increased shareholder value. The problem is that the majority of shareholders have no interest in the industry itself, only the quarterly earnings they post, which drives up the price of shares to be sold at a hefty profit for the shareholder-speculator.

heh heh. I took the thing yestidie and I think I did okay, but I was too much of a wuss to have it graded. *g*

lingering butterflies from a rather rigorous educational career. shudder.

not stellar, but survived. ;->

The public perception is lagging behind the changes that have been made by the industry. Quality has been going up and the gas mileage has also been going up for the american manufac. Legacy costs have been addressed and agreed to. If no one saw the severe “economic downturn coming” why are we saying that detroit should have anticipated it. Shit happens.

Thank you.

I thought that the $700B was to be released in traunches where congress would have to approve. Unless they have pulled another sneaky there should be quite a bit left.

Paulson can get another $100 billion just with a simple notification. He gets the final $250 billion again with a notification. The Congress can deny him this money but it takes something like a supermajority in both Houses and tens from 4 judges for 3 successive dives off a 10 meter board into an empty pool. IOW restrictions on Paulson are all atmospherics and he could get all the money and spend it anyway he wanted and there is no one to stop him.

Don’t think anyone knows the answer. As for booking airline tickets in advance, the most you’d be out is the price of a ticket, so people took chances.

Yup, I get that. My question, though, is how doing CPR for a moribund industry is going to improve their prospects.

Japs? My, my, aren’t we being a bit nasty in the morning.

BTW, I have to show you my friend’s four-door Toyota Sequoia. Every bit as big as a Ford F-150. It’s bullshit to complain about that. Detroit went after the most profitable segment of the market, which, unfortunately, companies are prone to do. The money to be made in small cars is as small as the cars.

In bidness terms, what will be the return on our investment? We can’t sustain the industry indefinitely. What’s the payback, beyond employment for hundreds of thousands of people manufacturing vehicles that rank way down the list in consumer polls and emerging buying habits?

The industry is only cyclically moribund. The point of the exercise is to get it thru the current recession so that it can thrive on the other side. The other point is that youdon’t destroy an industry in the midst of bad economic times. That’s called the Shock Doctrine, and we know how well that works out.

I think busting unions would be a fatal blow to continuing Democratic victories.

As an RN, I’m not currently involved in a union position, but I have coworkers who have been members of unionized nursing- some who have (due to moves) changed unions. My understanding is that not all unions are equally rational in their demands and requirements.

I very strongly support unionization as critical to worker rights, but perhaps some of the unions are in a position to make some reasonable concessions.

I think we’re in a position to demand a number of concessions from the corporate management–
(excessive compensation and benefits being #1).

You? A wuss? I wouldn’t have thought so.
I got 28/33 = 84% Better than most, but not as well as eCAHN. (the smartypants!) — I hope you both know I’m just teasing.

So how much money would the Big Three save if we did nothing more than institute and national, single-payer health care system? Now how much if we bolstered Social Security?

Becase he’s 100 million short on the car companies.

I know! But what will U.S. auto industry be doing differently that will make them successful on the other side of depression? Because they weren’t being successful before the feces hit the wind machine.

Ian addressed China here, When China will be able to pawn us. He linked to Stirling’s post, which directly referenced your excellent question about auto parts.

Would China be first in line with parts?

My guess is they own the line.

Thank you. I was not aware of this.

It sounds like the only way to stop him is a massive leveraging of public opinion.

not nasty at all. a compliment. i’ve always thought the japs (just shortened form of japanese) were way ahead of us technologically, and they are. there is a profit in small cars or so many companies wouldn’t be making them all ove r the world. Greed and reasonable profit are two different things, and each produces different business motivations.

So the government infuses cash into the foundering industry. Which buys a little bit of time to . . . what???

This is not about the auto industry or its problems. It is about the whole economy going into depression. Keeping the auto industry afloat and its workers employed for now is important but only one piece of what needs to be done. Banks have to be forced to lend. The government has to do a big even huge stimulus package so that people have money to buy things including cars.

I would remark parenthetically that bad as Detroit was, before the spike in oil prices and the financial meltdown, it wasn’t doing OK.

Yes they were. Selling large cars during a period of low gasoline prices was profitable.

In the leadup to today’s crisis, Wall Street DEMANDED almost total focus on growth, with nary a nod toward sustainability.

I am NOT even remotely qualified to make that statement, but that’s how it appeared to me.

What say you economics whiz-kids? Is there ANY chance of placing value on anything other than obscene profit margins and shareholders’ demands?

Where does that choice put the arts, environment, endangered species most definitely including humans, compassion, peace?

Yeah, I’m nuts. What’s your take? Seriously.

What IS true value? How do we preserve those needs which are not measured in $$$?

That’s what’s smokin’ in my pipe.

Much earlier this year, Ford was poised to shut down its St. Paul plant (pickup trucks) because business was bad. Weren’t quarterly earnings heading south for the big kids? I defer to your knowledge on this. Just an impression I’ve had and held.

Thing is, this was already rejected by the automakers:

Officials of the three automakers told members of Congress this week that they had studied a pre-arranged bankruptcy, championed by Republican lawmakers such as Senator Bob Corker of Tennessee, before dismissing the idea as unworkable.

“We have looked at all aspects, whether it’s a prepackage, whether it’s prenegotiated,” Chrysler CEO Robert Nardelli told a Senate committee on Nov. 18. The options are all “more negative” than restructuring as a condition of receiving federal aid, he said.

Prepacks Rejected

Wagoner and Alan Mulally, CEO of Dearborn, Michigan-based Ford, also said under congressional questioning that their companies had studied and rejected the idea of reorganizing under court protection.”

Your argument is with the govt not the car cos. If you want car cos to make a product that is energy efficient and otherwise green, then you need something like a $3/gal gasoline tax.

heh. a lot of the questions could be answered “blind”, just by considering the tangle of words, or the logic angle. But then, is that cheating? *g*

Planned obsolescence versus longevity/sustainability — the difference between american and japanese/euro model?

agreed. That was proposed by environmental experts decades ago.

This year the US was already in a recession. Only the income tax refunds kept GDP from showing it in the second quarter. During the growth years of the 00s, the car cos were selling record numbers of cars.

And they were restructuring their costs all during that period. So it’s not as though they coasted during good times.

I don’t want to defend what they did and didn’t do, just pointing out that the heated anti-car-co rhetorical ignores a lot of evidence to the contrary.

You make many good points. I think the most damaging thing the Big 2.5 and the UAW did with the short sighted help of Congress and POTUS/big oil, was to focus on gas guzzlers.

See my Ian link above to Adie. emptywheel, Ian, Jane, Stirling imho are all pretty much singing off the same page. Do you want America to retain some part of its manufacturing base or do you want to sell it to the Shanghai Automotive Industrial Corporation (Government of China) for pennies on the dollar? All the smart money imho says that’s game over as far as the US as an economic power is concerned and it has really severe consequences regarding the environment.

I think there’s a lot of support to see that doesn’t happen. What is less clear is how we transform the big 2.5 into world class competitors, which is what your post was getting at.

I think the obscene profit margins will have to have some regulated negative repercussions. Obvious from things like AIG continuing to blow money on partying, etc, they’re not going to do it out of any sense of responsibility. For this group there is no responsibility, only entitlement.

I remember hearing an SUV owner, a little bitty woman saying that she knew it was more car than she needed, but that she felt safer driving it.
May have something to do with control issues.
In a time where we view ourselves as having less and less power over issues in our lives.
What do you think?

Where is this national civics test? I wanna take that.

Oops, my #68 should read.

I would remark parenthetically that bad as Detroit was, before the spike in oil prices and the financial meltdown, it was doing OK

Making the changes that were needed costs money too. As they reached agreements with the UAW that required buyouts and funding of pension funds etc.

So are we positing that plummeting U.S. auto quarterly results was a bellwether re recession? If they emerge intact on the other side of recession, will they resume doing what they were doing? Will that be sufficient to keep them afloat on their own? I know I’m being a persistent pest here, but I can’t seem to see to the other side of this. Will the Big 3 emerge older and wiser?

Vichy Dems led by Dingle and Ervin followed the UAW who caved into Big Oil.

I think it would be impossible to disentangle the genuine control motivation you cite from the car co marketing that the big hunks of metal were “safer.”

I’d like to share some things I know to be true, as opposed to the ideas that have been propagated for the purpose of destroying the publics empathy for blue collar auto workers, IMHO to break their unions.

Background

• GM has taken far-reaching actions over the last several years to
restructure, be more competitive, and position its U.S. business for
future viability and success

• However, the credit crisis is overwhelming operating plans –

What has GM done to cut costs and increase productivity?

• Reduced structural cost by $9 billion from 2005-2007 (down 22%) with plans for
further reductions of $5 to $6 billion by 2011 (down ~35%)

• Rightsized manufacturing capacity: From year-end 2004 to year-end 2007, GM
removed 1.3 million units of assembly capacity (24% net reduction)
– Further rightsizing planned with reduction of 0.7 million units by year-end 2010 (total
net reduction of 36%)
– More than 60% of remaining capacity at year-end 2010 will be dedicated to fuel
efficient cars and crossovers

• Streamlined U.S. operations: Total headcount reduced from 177,000 in 2002 to
93,000 today (47% reduction)

• 2007 UAW Hourly Labor Agreement provides basis for competitive manufacturing
base in U.S. by 2010

• Historic agreement with UAW to fund retiree health care obligations with
independent VEBA trust, eliminating majority of risk related to U.S. retiree
healthcare starting in 2010

• GM leads in manufacturing productivity in 11 out of the 20 North America
segments in which it competes (2008 Harbour Report)
– GM also has 5 of the top 10 best rated engine plants in North America, and the #1
transmission plant, all located in the U.S.

Is GM doing enough about delivering a better Product?

• Commitment to Product Excellence broadly recognized
– North America Car of the Year: Chevrolet Malibu and Saturn Aura
– Motor Trend Car of the Year: Cadillac CTS
– European Car of the Year: Opel Insignia
– Green Car of the Year (LA Auto Show): 2-Mode Hybrid Chevrolet Tahoe
– 11 of last 13 U.S. launches have been cars or crossovers
– J. D. Power Initial Quality Survey: In 2008, GM had more segment leaders than Toyota
or Honda, and GM has improved overall survey performance by 25% in last 5 years
– Reduced number of warranty repairs by 40% over the last 5 years, and are on track in
2008 to achieve a further 15% reduction vs. 2007 levels

• Growing leadership position in fuel economy and advanced propulsion
technologies
– 20 GM vehicles with EPA highway fuel economy of 30 mpg or better (most of any
manufacturer, domestic or import)
– World leader in bio-fuel vehicles with over 3 million FlexFuel vehicles on U.S. roads
today, with commitment to reach 50% of annual GM volume by 2012
– 6 hybrids in U.S. today, and 2 more by year-end 2008 (most hybrid models of any
automaker)
– Largest hydrogen fuel cell vehicle test fleet in the world
– Chevrolet Volt (E-REV) production on schedule to begin in 2010

Your argument is with the govt not the car cos. If you want car cos to make a product that is energy efficient and otherwise green, then you need something like a $3/gal gasoline tax.

Or raise your fleet wide CAFE standard to 40-50 MPG.
Or prohibitively tax the sale of SUVs and trucks.

http://www.americanciviclitera…../quiz.aspx

And with W in office, anything that even “good” Ds might to was DOA.

(continued) … Will the Big 3 emerge older and wiser? Because “Don’t worry your pretty little head, dearie. Of course we will!” just doesn’t cut it.

http://www.americancivicliteracy.org/

click on ‘take the quiz’.

I was being suggestive, not exhaustive. There are many tools the govt could have used. Cap & trade for carbon would have discouraged gas guzzlers too.

Took it yesterday. Care to reveal how you did?

Ah, jeez, there you go, dealing in facts. *g*

Thanks! This doesn’t get enough press, being that the TradMed would rather holler about corporate jets, as if auto companies were the only ones that had them.

See Watt4Bob @ 87.

Yup. But too many folks are in Lord of the Flies mode lately and don’t want to be shaken out of it.

I’m still using the same monster Kitchen Aid mixer I bought 40 years ago. Are they still in business? I know. Martha Stewart. Population growth. yadda yadda.

We better figure this stuff out pretty dang quick, or mebbe it is already too late.

Boozh/Chainie don’t give a #*&%. “We’ll all be dead then.” e.g., who cares?! says dumbya.

Well, I’ll wager everyone at the Lake cares.

I dare ya all to read “Guns, Germs & Steel” and “Collapse” by Jared Diamond.
No, that’s wrong. I STRONGLY URGE you to read those books. Do NOT be turned away by their size or their titles.

Yes. I usually don’t see many commercials because of my television viewing choices and habits, but during the run up to the election, I saw some, imo, strange ones for cars.
Specifically, I’m thinking of some that were pointed to female consumers.
Sexy car makes you sexy. Your car is your best friend.
My car just gets me where I need to go.
I drive a 1988 Honda Accord.
It’s not very sexy and does not make me feel powerful.

In the leadup to today’s crisis, Wall Street DEMANDED almost total focus on growth, with nary a nod toward sustainability.

Stock price and dividends became the way that companies were evaluated by the market. This has to do with the shift in emphasis from the real economy to the paper one. Good quarterly profits reports became the focus of CEOs who sacrificed the long term viability of companies for them. It was a real “Après moi,le déluge” mentality.

haven’t taken it yet–will reveal when i do!

Personally, I just about completely immune to marketing. But I still recognize what the marketers are trying to accomplish a lot of the time.

I’m sure it would be great for 3+ million more folks to lose their jobs and pension. It would be great for the economy. /s

30 out of 33 = 90.91%

Yes. Did the rollback of such regulations start with Reagan? I assume it’s always exerted pressure, required courage, in Congress and the White House, both to impose, and then to maintain them.

May we all now agree that human nature apparently requires some regulations in order for class warfare to be avoided?

AND that this is not some dirtycommie way of thinking?

I took it yesterday before I lost my internet access (someone Cut phone line) I got about 84 and thought some of the questions/ answers were BS

So are we positing that plummeting U.S. auto quarterly results was a bellwether re recession?

Not really. The housing bubble burst on August 9, 2007 with the freezing of the BNP Paribas funds and the subsequnt panic that ensued. No bellwether was necessary. When the housing market blew up, it would have taken a miracle to keep us out of a recession. The problem we face now is, with all the political stupidity and the deteriorating economic situation, staying out of a depression.

Short answer is no. Not on their own anyway. But government can, and should incentivize more responsible behavior. No corporation is really going to act responsibly on their own.

Personally, I’m leaning toward a bailout mainly to save working people and the unions, but the legislation authorizing the bailout should include some regulation like improved CAFE standards or other incentives to push car companies to behave more responsibly and sustainably. I would also say that passing universal (preferably single-payer) health care would reduce costs of large manufacturers as well as insulate workers from some of the pain of the increasing job losses.

Yes, again. It’s why I enjoy studying communication and motivation. If I understand how another affects me, it minimizes their power over me.
I guess this is how my control needs function.
Ha.

Ah ha! I’m not surprised. I love a well-read human.

Here is the URL to the civics test

http://www.americanciviclitera…../quiz.aspx

It is good measure of your knowledge.

It’s stomach-churning to have someone of your heft confirm my suspicions.

The whole system has become so counter-intuitive, except to those who dive headlong toward quick profit, honing the edge up to and past human endurance/humane expectations, past the point at which the whole ball of wax will remain intact and not incur meltdown.

imho (flying uneducated in the field, but not blindly, if you will allow for the worth of education in behavior/ecology/evolution)

It’s hard to contemplate our future, unless we get a handle on these interconnected problems. Are we smart enough to know we as a species need to set limits on gluttony? This is where optimism fades for me.

It’s why I voted for Obama. There’s a chance he understands these things, given the broad education he received and continues. I hope he cares enough to tackle the unpopular questions. I hope his advisors, Congress, powerful bidnessfolk, and the rest of us, will let him do so.
no snark

oh u show-off. Proud, I am, for u. Impressed. Encouraged. *g*

what a novel adaptation of “the dawg ate my homework” hee hee.

Seriously, unsettling problem! Any clue who would do such a thing?

Stay safe out there…

You are very welcome, I prefer your ‘reality-based’ site to any other.

I fear that the anti-labor propaganda of the last forty years or so has come back to haunt it’s corporate masters. I’m sure if you asked GM’s execs today, they’d tell you their workers are the best bunch of guys in the world, and the hardest working too.

It’s too bad that a couple of days of congressional testimony and press conferences can’t undue the years and years of effort to poison public opinion.

People won’t buy cars from companies in bankruptcy dept-reorganization?

People won’t buy cars from anybody so long as they can’t get auto-loans, their consumer confidence is in the toilet, and they’re concerned about losing their job.

Send the Big-3 into debt-reorganization. Kill off the management, renegotiate UAW contracts, consolidate the brands, shrink the product lines, get them onto better footing moving forward. When the credit crisis finally starts to relax, then you at least have healthier manufacturers to purchase goods from.

It’s not very often that you get to press the pause-button on a business or market to give you time to make critical and massive changes. The inertia of operations makes it impossible. The credit crisis is essentially our pause-button. Nobody is going to be purchasing as it is. We need to capitalize on the unique positions created by these tandem crises to make fundamental changes, not setup zombie-corporations.

The only other way you’re going to keep those companies afloat without truly massive reorganization is by grossly limiting imports, and creating an insulated market.

P.S. and edit feature would be nice.

was away for awhile… as far as when things started, I’ve seen it pinned to Carter w/ some deregulation acts- not certain about the history of it.

Even Greenspan admitted that he’d been “mistaken” about the need for regulation. Only the most demented Neo-Kooks are still playing the old “too much regulation” saw.

I got the same. I missed questions 14, 27, and 29.