“center right” burns my ass.

I can only hope that the Republicans buy their own propaganda.

Maybe the center-right frame is correct; it just applies to the media who create these frames, not the country.

My observation is that the media and the GOP tend to conflate “Americans” and “Republicans”.

But, but . . . they’re the same, aren’t they? Isn’t that the definition of “real America”?

Well, I tend to sit in the center or the right on my chair, so I guess that makes me a center-right ass. *g*

hi eli. i’m on the center right side of this couch. that’s about it though. maybe i’ll move over to the left.

Exactly. I think I even did a post on that way back when.

i think i may owe you the right side of a coke!

Funny, I’m on the center-right of mine too, but I shift around a lot.

I believe that in the last two election cycles, when you ask, “How did freshman representatives and Senators compare to who previously held the spot?”, it’s something like roughly 70-2 that a new freshman is more liberal than the previous officeholder. The 2 losses I can think of are Mahoney in Florida and Sampson (in Delay’s former district.)

I wish more folks on the television in particular would just say define center or define right. Of course it’s all just an excuse to ignore both issues and or discussion of the left at all.

Since you moved left, you can have the left side of the coke.

America is a center-right nation, but a self-loathing one.

If the counter-argument is that we are living in a “center-left” country, haven’t they already scored a rhetorical point by forcing the word center into the conversation?

Now I’m kind of sprawled all the way across center-left and center-right.

aHAHAHA

Alas, yes, but I’ll settle for baby steps at this point…

This is an excellent critique. If they acknowelge that the country is or is moving left then they have to actually discuss the ideas of the left, get progressive thinkers to present their views and so on. It’s serves THEIR agenda to see it as a right of center and center dichotomy and use right wing bloviators to argue which it is. hence the idjits on tee vee. I don’t watch it except for Moyers, Olbi and Maddow. The talking head shows on Sunday AM are insufferable as are the main print media.

You are wrong jerks. Go away.

So, Californians voted to ban gay people from marrying each other.
What’s next? Should we ban left handers from marrying?

I know you don’t need one of these

Why do they always have a panel of rightwingers? How about a Noam Chomsky or a Jane Hamsher on one of these TV panels?

see my # 21

I’m trying to decide whether that would be considered NSFW or not…

I can’t be at my computer & on the couch at the same time. Have to sit in a chair with my little computer stand in front of me. I bought it from Target. Just looked for it to post a link but it looks like they don’t carry it anymore.

That’s funny & disgusting at the same time.

Unless I’m at work, that’s just unnatural. When I’m at home, I’m on my laptop wherever I feel most comfortable.

Ha, I found it.
http://www.target.com/Tilted-L.....038;page=1

i’m also on the laptop at home. unless i need to pay bills and don’t trust the wireless, so i use the desktop in my kid’s room.

I have a friend who’s a lawyer for a union. He assures me that the country is much more rightwing than the polls show. Has something to do with his discouragement at what’s happened to union membership & inability to gain new members. When I countered with govt full court push against unions, he poohpoohed that idea and insisted that in their heart-of-hearts, workers were really right of center.

I use one of these.

I thought I needed a fan, cause the computer gets extra warm on my lap, and I liked the short connecting cable of this unit. But when I got it home and tried it, I found i didn’t need to run the fan at all. The platform is curved, leaving a 3/4inch air flow space under most of the computer, and that’s all I needed. So I removed the cable.

well, not having that externalality, I can’t say.

ooh i like that! i actually want one of the ones that fits under the bed.

I actually don’t like having my laptop on my lap.

I could probably use something like that to keep the bottom vent from being blocked when it’s on my lap or sitting on the couch…

i have one if these

(I’m a little hypersensitive to fan/cooling issues since my last laptop basically died of heatstroke)

Suppose you have two populations, which we’ll call “R” and “D”. Suppose each has a distribution of scores, say from 0 to 100, measuring “conservativeness”; perhaps most of the “D” population are between 0 and 50, and “R” between 50 and 100. If you decrease the number of “R”’s by removing those between 50 and 75, and increase the number of “D”’s by increasing the number between 25 and 50, then it is a mathematical fact that individually, the “R” distribution and the “D” distribution each become more conservative.

The more important mathematical fact is that the entire population of R+D becomes substantially more liberal.

This is because division is not distributive.

There’s a trade off. On this unit, the air intake is on the bottom, which means if you actually use the fan, the air intake can get covered by your lap. So to solve that, they have a fold down lid, that raises the unit a couple of inches, but it’s not as comfortable than going without it. so the solution was to not use the fan at all, let the natural air flow provide the cooling, and not worry about the air intake.

Oh, Rachel is showing the video of Richard Perle predicting that there would be a square in Baghdad named after Bush. Right.

i don’t do math on weekends. but i’ll try to understand it on monday.

That does sound an awful lot like what’s been happening over the last four years.

I think “center-Right” is an example of “if you repeat it often enough, people will start to believe it.” It becomes the “conventional wisdom” as long as it is not challenged. We need to get more pundits and other talking heads to say that this is a “center-Left” country.

But I suspect that Obama wants to obliterate any such simple polarities in favor of a much more multi-dimensional understanding.

Bob in HI

Oh, Rachel is showing the video of Richard Perle predicting that there would be a square in Baghdad named after Bush. Right.

Ha. Good luck with that.

or else just move the country farther left

I think “center-Right” is an example of “if you repeat it often enough, people will start to believe it.” It becomes the “conventional wisdom” as long as it is not challenged. We need to get more pundits and other talking heads to say that this is a “center-Left” country.

Exactly. That’s *how* you create your own reality. Or try.

This makes you the distributor in chief.

Someone smart was talking about some kind of “window” on FDL several weeks back that had to do with the Left-Right perceptions. It was a great and very perceptive commentary. Anyone else remember it?

Bob in HI

Well, what’s been happening in the Democratic Party anyway. Not so sure about the general public.

The Overton Window? The concept of staking out extreme positions to move what’s considered normal and acceptable to the left or the right?

Your friend has a point. All of the “working people” at work– the shop workers and service techs– are conservative. Every one of them except one.

They all say “I work my ass off and the government taxes me and gives it to people who don’t want to work.” When I point out that we’ll be taxed less under Obama than McCain they don’t have an answer, but it doesn’t change their minds one bit.

(They don’t mention the skin color of the “people who don’t want to work” but I think you can guess that.)

ever mention the reality of corporate welfare to them?

Interesting example. It may be what the MSM are noticing intuitively, but of course, it’s the distribution of R+Ds that they should be looking at. And that’s what the polls show, so it’s still a mystery why the media refuse to recognize it.

Even the smarter Rs recognize it. There was a panel today that cpan showed, Rs critiquing what went wrong & what to do about it. It was one of the better ones I’ve seen, evidence based. One of the speakers went through all the voting evidence, not just on national elections, but also state legislatures, in illustrating the point that the Rs had become a regional party. (Another speaker said that R would never attract Latinos if talk radio continued to spew hate against immigrants.)

My dad used to say that consumer products companies always advertise the weakest thing about their product: e.g., Chrysler engineering; Volkswagen Routan German engineering (it’s a Chrysler Van under the skin); great margarine taste; General Motors retained value.

That’s why pundits have to talk so much about America being a center-right country — because everyone woke up on Wednesday November 5th knowing we’d moved substantially to the left. And everyone saw evidence all around them that this was true. So, the pundits getting their paychecks where they do, they needed to disabuse us all of the notion.

Who you gonna believe, the pundits or your lying eyes?

I work in a small biz where the owner claims his father started a union. Yea right. Regardless he’s republican and completely anti union because he doesn’t want to pay taxes and he thinks unions destroy the work ethic and workers get lazy in a union shop. He’s a hard work, for sure, but I have yet to understand if he blames the pukes for tanking the economy.

Yeah, the tax thing always seems to be a big deal. That’s why I’m hoping Obama succeeds in implementing his tax plan. If the Democrats brand themselves as the tax increases for the rich, tax cuts for everyone else party, and the Republicans brand themselves as the opposite, that takes one of the GOP’s biggest weapons away.

Yes, and sometimes they agree with me about that but it doesn’t change who they vote for. They usually say that taxing corporations will kill jobs. They just spew faux news style talking points and you can’t get through to them.

That’s what eCAHN’s friend said that rang true to me– “in their heart of hearts”. Deep in their guts they hate minorities and liberals. They have a deep seated resentment that is not rational. It’s a working class thing.

Yeah, moderate Republicans become moderate Democrats is not exactly a sign that this is a center-right nation.

Some interesting articles here about Paulson’s bad plan & deflation, for those who are greater economic masochists than I am. (selise?)
http://www.bepress.com/ev/announce/20081120/

I actually agree that unions sometimes get in the way with all the work rules. But I always point out that if it wasn’t for the unions we wouldn’t have the 40 hour work week. That always shuts them up, even the self-loathing working people.

But working class used to be solidly D. Was it the Rs’ southern strategy that also worked on them, or Reagan, or disgust with the perceived excesses of the 1970s? Or all of the above (since Reagan succeeded in large part by demonizing the 70s) or some other reasons?

The folks you describe sound like my parents. I got so fed up when I was in my teens, I told them: Well, if you think welfare’s such a great deal, why don’t you quit work & go on welfare. The rest of that dinner was pretty silent.

OT
Kewl story. Buried glaciers on Mars.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/.....oundonmars

At some point it would be a good idea for Ian or someone to do a post reflecting on why so many white working class stiffs think that they are getting screwed on taxes for the benefit of other people. We know that’s objectively false, and I don’t think it’s all racism, though there certainly is a good dose of it for some of them. The white high-school educated class have been royally screwed by the economy over the past 35 years, and have decided the reason is they have to pay taxes. But hardly any of them pay any taxes worth worrying about apart from social security and unemployment payroll taxes.

It’s worth thinking through. I remember the first time I came across it; I was surprised, and I still haven’t got to the bottom of it.

don’t minimize the effects of right wing talk radio

If the Democrats could unlock that key, they’d be set. I think part of it is that people just like griping about taxes, because they think *any* taxes are too much.

I think we lost the working class in the 60s with the civil rights movement. Reagan peeled them off by very openly appealing to their racism.

Digby has said that Reagan Democrats are not racists, but she’s wrong. That’s exactly what they are– union members who have traditionally voted Dem only for the union support, but who hate minorities so much that the overlooked the Republicans’ anti-union stance.

That’s a pretty remarkable (and depressing) demonstration of the right’s ability to influence our national discourse.

jup

“The Overton Window? The concept of staking out extreme positions to move what’s considered normal and acceptable to the left or the right?”

This was the usefulness of the organization Earth First for the environmental movement. My wife was thinking that I was quite liberal until I had her sit down and watch Democracy Now! for a few nights…now she thinks a bit differently.

but how many are like me and had to take a cut in their hours and pay? i’d rather pay the taxes

Knut and Eli– “taxes” is a code word for “racism”. Pure and simple.

Thanks. I never think of that because I have never listened to it.

My hunter friend’s daughter lives with her mother in the middle of PA. He drives down frequently for visits, and recently told me he listens to it all the time on his trips. Since he’s sensibly progressive, I asked how he could stand it, and he said he thinks it’s really funny. Not for me. I’d become infuriated pretty quickly.

Simply, I think, Reagan Democrats are the part of the Democrat base which is informed by corporate media.

Well, they have been screwed on payroll taxes, which are pretty regressive.

Yeah, I can’t listen to it. I read quotes by creatures like Limbaugh and Savage, and they just make me ill and angry.

Any reason (apart from the obvious) why we couldn’t just lower the percentage and eliminate the cap?

Driving across PA80 is brutal radio.

there is a liberal alternative ya know!

When you make less than ten bucks an hour… all you notice is a third of your gross pay is missing from the final paycheck… and the rest wont cover the basic bills.

And, imo, one reason Reagan could rally the southerners.. is because they never had respect for their labor to begin with.

A lot of these people have been feed their prejudices by right wing media since Reagan. He had a huge following, and when they did away with the Fairness Doctrine people got their pap unadulterated. The war on liberalism has been running ever since–24/7. Hopefully, Obama–the “most liberal member of the Senator,” a “terrorist loving” “Marxist”–can succeed in turning things around and wash the last twenty years of BS out of everyones mind. Who knows, after some years of the most liberal terrorist Marxist Senator what will the right use to make Kucinich scary?

The rationale is that benefits are income capped, so the taxes should be too.

lol. i don’t know if it was my name or the use of masochists that caught my eye. thanks for the link.

Yeah, I find it hard to listen to too, but I remember two occasions when I was in a vehicle with conservatives who wanted to listen to Rush Limpdick, and both times he was going on about Clinton getting a blowjob!!! It was great! I just started laughing, I said “OMG, you conservatives are still going on about that!! You people are just uptight about sex!!!” I laughed my ass off. My conservative coworkers didn’t like it one bit. LOL!

With all this talk about hate radio, some Rs have started to realize that there’s blowback from it. Read the last sentence of my 52.

707!

The U.S. is a left of center country. Spread the word!

Yeah, until I saw that great chart from Sirota, my post was going to be about the right’s hysteria about how the Democrats are supposedly going to reinstate the Fairness Doctrine - why do they need to reinstate it, when talk radio is marginalizing the GOP even further?

OT
I am going to see 2 great nieces over Xmas, one 8 who I last saw when she was 4, and one 4 who I’ve never seen. Want to give them books. (They live in TN, so perhaps this is not OT.) Any suggestions? NY Public Library has a pamphlet of childrens classics, but iirc, they’re listed by year of publication instead of age-appropriate. I can’t remember where I put my copy but I can call & find out if it’s online. (Didn’t show up in my search of their website.)

safe. requires a subscription. *g*

You betcha.

Very funny.

i’ll email you the librarians’ association list.

Thanks.

I think people are moving upstairs with Teddy.
http://campaignsilo.firedoglak.....n-victory/

The only thing center right in this country is the corporate media and their grossly overpaid gasbags.

not to worry, i’m going to listen to that podcast you’ve been suggesting. i expect that will do the trick. hehe.

Iss good for you.

a little off topic but thought youse guys might want to see the email I got from Democrats.com maybe Bush can be tied in knots and not be able to pardon his whole wreaking crew!

Rep. Jerrold Nadler Leads Opposition to Bush Pardons

Congratulations! Just one week ago we asked you to launch a massive movement against pardons by signing a petition to your Representatives. Over 46,000 of you took action and Congress took notice.
On Friday, Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D-NY) introduced H.Res. 1531 urging President Bush not to pardon senior administration officials for crimes the President authorized. It notes:
President George W. Bush may have committed crimes involving the mistreatment of detainees, the extraordinary rendition of individuals to countries known to engage in torture, illegal surveillance of United States citizens, unlawful leaks of classified information, obstruction of justice, political interference with the conduct of the Justice Department, and other illegal acts
and that
Bush has been urged to grant preemptive pardons to senior administration officials who might face criminal prosecution for actions taken in the course of their official duties
Nadler’s resolution urges Congress to investigate those crimes and any pardons relating to them, and urges the Attorney General (current or future) to appoint an Independent Counsel to prosecute those crimes.
These are major steps towards holding George Bush, Dick Cheney, and other senior officials accountable for their crimes and thereby upholding the rule of law, rather than allowing Presidents to become dictators.
Rep. Nadler’s leadership is crucial because he chairs the House Judiciary Committee’s Subcommittee on the Constitution, Civil Rights, and Civil Liberties and can use his credibility and clout to move the resolution forward either during the lame duck session in December or when the next Congress convenes on January 6.
So our next step is to persuade as many Representatives as possible to co-sponsor H.Res. 1531. Please sign our new petition:
http://www.democrats.com/nadle.....g4NmRlbXM=
We also encourage you to call your Representative at 202-224-3121 and speak with the Legislative Assistant who handles Judiciary matters.
If your Representative says (s)he will co-sponsor, please let us know by commenting on our resolution “whipping” page:
http://www.democrats.com/nadler-pardon-resolution
Thanks for all you do!
Bob Fertik

Moyers has a piece tonight that destroys Paulson. That he part of the problem b/c he instill NO confidence.

Maybe they’ll find the frozen remains of John Carter and Tars Tarkus.

Or those Iraqi weapons of mass destruction.

It *is* Mars, after all…

paulson instills no confidence? i am shocked! *g*

thanks will give it a listen by podcast, probably tomorrow.

And the Bush administration has gotten most of its policy ideas from Edgar Rice Burroughs novels.

I thought it was Robert E. Howard…

John Carter and friends always got out of whatever scrape they managed to get themselves into. Shrub and Co, not so much.

Possibly a combination, all jumbled together. Of course Cimmeria is all frozen as well.

Although sometimes it’s more like Kafka.

Plus John Carter could teleport. Shrub can’t figure out which door is open.

Or Solzhenitsyn.

Shrub can’t walk through open doors.

Yeah, we’ve been through The Trial.

I remember when Gulag came out. Still in the Navy in San Diego. Carried it with me wherever I went. Walking into lamp posts kinda absorbed.

Another four years and I think we’d be talking H.P. Lovecraft…

I already am. Here, Cthulhu, here boy.

Never could get into Lovecraft for some reason.

Pip, the Alaspinian minidrag

His stuff really appealed to me as an adolescent, though much less so now.

If the Democrats could unlock that key, they’d be set. I think part of it is that people just like griping about taxes, because they think *any* taxes are too much.

To some extent sure. But, don’t forget, in red states they have lower wages, higher divorce rates, higher teen pregnancy and lots of other problems to gripe about. These are real problems they haven’t solved and they need a scapegoat — Liberals.

Dem leaders have to find ways to solve problems for those folks.