The moment when China becomes a consumer driven society is the moment when the US loses its leadership of the world, and when if it’s economy isn’t in good shape, it crashes out. Right now the US has numbers in terms of balances of payments, outstanding debt and so on, which in any other country, would have caused not an "financial crisis" but an economic crash, at best looking like what happened to Argentina at the beginning of the decade. That is to say, an actual significant contraction of GDP, massive unemployment, collapse of the dollar, and probably an inflation crisis. At worse, and this is not an unlikely scenario, it would have a crisis similar to Russia after the collapse of the USSR—which is to say, a crisis so severe that getting food is an issue, an actual decline in the population and so on.
Why? Because the US needs massive inflows of money from nations like China and Japan in order to finance both the government and private consumption. China and Japan, and other countries, for that matter, have amassed holdings of US securities, cash and so on, in the many trillions, as a result. They have been willing to buy assets that they know they will probably not see a full real return on because the US buys their exports, and in China’s case, is busily shipping American jobs to China, thus industrializing China.
The world needs the US because the US is the "consumer of last resort". It buys everyone else’s stuff, issues a pile of securities and dollars in exchange, and exports industrialization to China in exchange for deindustrialization and cheap consumer goods at home, which kept down inflation for a very long time.
When China has a large internal market which has reached takeoff, it can sell mostly to itself, and will no longer need the US as much. Neither will any other country, since they can sell to China, with a much larger market. Sure, everyone’ll be happy to sell to the US, but they won’t need to. At that point, when the US has a financial crisis (and it will, unless things are cleaned up) China doesn’t have to keep buying up treasuries or see its own economy crash out. It can say "no thanks". It can even start offloading all the crap securities it has. If it, or other countries do so, the US dollar crashes the floor.
At that point China has the US over a barrel. It is no longer a Mexican stand-off, no longer "sure, you can shoot me, but you go down too". That’s a really bad position to be in—China, or anyone with significant security stocks (and that’s almost everyone) can destroy the US’s economy any time they want to. With that many nations able to do it, odds are one of them will. And if one of them does, everyone will stamped for the door, sending the dollar the US economy not just into the toilet, but into the sewers.
At the current time, China is not ready to have a consumer society. As Stirling points out, it’s about 2 economic cycles away from being able to switch to one. If it gets to buy up a US car company, it’s probably one cycle away. Since the US is in a really really deep hole and currently digging deeper at a ferocious rate (the five trillion spent on the financial crisis will add to the US’s outstanding debt) when this happens is a big deal. Two economic cycles gives America longer to get its house in order and fix things so that when China does take off, it doesn’t find itself unarmed with every major nation in the world able to annhialate its economy whenever they feel like and take only minor losses themselves.
Decoupling from the US has not happened yet. The very idea was laughable when idiots were floating it a couple years ago. But the fact that it is laughable now does not mean it is laughable forever. Not only are graveyards full of indespensable men, as Charles De Gaulle once noted, but history books are full of hegemonic powers that thought that the sun would never set on them.



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I hear no laughter, Ian.
There may be some smirking from those whom the bailout is golden parachuting …
Tell me, Ian, have the ‘wisdoms’ a clue, beyond covering their own?
Ha Ha Ha America
OK, so now I’m going to be the ITS police. I’ve skimmed two entries by two different writers who don’t know this:
IT’S is a contraction of IT IS. If you can’t replace it’s with IT IS in your sentence, use ITS.
Thanks. I know that mine was probably the last generation in high school to have this drummed into us, but it still bugs the hell out of me.
(class of 62) (before everything went to hell)
I for one think there is no way congress or anyone else can stop SAIC from buying up GM or anyone else. Their leverage is too great.
你的中国?
Clever, Ellie – what is that — “Got Milk” in Mandarin?
I have to say, Ian, I am beginning to think we should package everything up that we have written on the bailout here at the lake, EW’s and Oxdown and send it to every Congressperson.
The national security issues tied to the economic realities are top priorities. I have never seen so many irresponsible elected leaders ignoring this reality. It. Is. Treason.
I wonder if the states most affected by the tanking of the 2.5 might be able to jointly fund a buyout perhaps partnering with the UAW?
I know that sounds crazy, but right now, even crazy suggestions to fight the tanking should be considered.
lol
no, that would be
“有奶?”
I use the handy google translator yanno
When I was in college, I had a history prof who said something I will always remember, which was that every “great power”(I assume he meant empire) went through a cycle of growth and then one day, ‘they went to the well once too often”. Now, he was a militarist – he was one of those ‘battle that was the turning point of xxx” or “the invention of the stirrup changed the course of history xxx”. But I think in this case, we can say pretty closely that there was a point when, economically, we did that, and we’ve been on the fast train to Third World ever since – we just haven’t been able to see it since we had all those cheap goods from Walmart.
OK, but is that really ‘got milk’ or is it a case like the one with the translation into Spanish which really came out “got T*ts?”
thanks. you beat me to it.
I was in the h.s. class of 1972, and I knew that.
China you can believe in!
‘Tis indeed as you say, patcs.
Would that our economic wisdoms were half so astute as you in their proclaimed balliwicks!
The late great US of A…. too big to fail?
hope you are brushing up on your Chinese strokes
Re the Chinese not needing us, buying up US companies, etc— so… does this mean we actually lost the cold war, you know, the one against the commies.
I really dont know shit from shinola about these heavy economic dynamics, however I do recall reading somewhere that he big three could be profitable if they didn’t have the harsh payments for health care. So heres the deal implement a plan whereby all Americans are covered by a single payer government run, cost recovered no profit system and everyone wins, small business, big business, the uninsured no need for the big three loans. The security for Joe and Jane middle class will tip the balance to the future sucess of America Give it a thought..
Worlds Richest Man Carlos Slim 2007. Buying a car company could be Mexico’s first step up.
http://money.cnn.com/2007/08/0…..m.fortune/
I wonder how Loe Dobbs, Glen Beck and all the talking heads on the business channels will feel if Carlos buys Ford as China buys GM? :)
Right to work states are in a losing race to the bottom/slavery with Mexico, China etc. China is moving up.
Mexico will move up or there will be another revolution.
A bad American economy is the likely trigger.
I do not understand why anyone would brag about getting paid less money and not having healthcare.
got yerself a winner there, buddy.
Why would you think he’s Chinese?
どのように多くの労働者の給与を民間機でお客様の旅行の費用は等しいか?
How many workers’ salaries equal the cost of your trips on private jets?
Japanese.
the key to achieving a real single payer health care system here is convincing americans to question the premise that healthcare must be a profit making venture. It didn’t used to be. People forget that.
Or does it mean Marx was right when he said capitalism contains the seeds of its own destruction?
I’d like to tango with you on this one, tango. I think that there’s too much invested in the other side of the coin, doctors, nurses, etc. But what you propose is a credible solution.
有多少工人工资平等的费用您旅行的私人飞机?
Chinese.
I heard on NPR this afternoon, a senator making a comment to the Big 3 at the hearing, that with the big 3 in such trouble it was interesting that they each came to DC on their private jets…
Marx was right on that account. He knew that without state regulation of the political economy greed would destroy the capitalist system. Didn’t have anything to do with socialism but was contained in his critique of the theories of Adam Smith and David Ricardo.
Linear projections again and the future is not a linear projection of the past. Peak oil (The End of The Oil Age) is going to change the global dynamics from export of cheap stuff, to local manufacture of stuff, and local growth of food.
Yo! NYers! Forget the lettuce from California; and all those abandoned fields upstate? Get chopping!
The future looks like transport of expensive stuff (per: “Cargos”, and if you don’t know what that is look it up, clue: it’s a poem).
Fall of empire? Probably.
I didn’t get that particular point. What was he trying to say, selling the jets on eBay like Sarah Palin… didn’t… would make a significant difference on the Big 3 balance sheets? Puh-leeze.
Cool tool. Ellie’s gonna be sorry she turned my on to that.
Ian, I was just reading this last night! Do you know the book “Crash Proof” by Peter Schiff? I’m about a third of the way through the book. From what I’ve read so far it’s a basic primer about our current catastrophe. Does he have the same point of view as you do?
edit –
mymePreview is mah fren
IT’S is a contraction of IT IS. If you can’t replace it’s with IT IS in your sentence, use ITS.
A dog licks its balls because it’s fun.
See if that one doesn’t stick in your head.
I don’t disagree. How interesting that China rises on capitalism, then. Means eventually they’ll see those seeds grow in their lands? Or will they be the ones to find a way to break the cycle?
You learned that in high school English class?
As corrupt as officialdom in China appears to be, and has been for thousands of years, I would imagine at some point what we’re seeing here now would be considered mild in comparison. They make a show of shooting corrupt top officials in the back of the head but joss will never go away. It’s part of the culture.
just made it up.
I don’t even wanna think about what that says about me….
*winkity wink*
A lot would be invested, Doctors and nurses would only benefit by virtue of the fact that they would be making the medical decisions and not the corporate accountants. No more death by bottom line disease, no more bankruptcy,no more worry about catastrophic ilness as you would be covered..
you’re more creative than the high school English teachers?
channeling Sarah?
Absolutely spot on. Cross country transport of goods will be prohibitively expensive. At some point in the not-so-distant future farms will have to be guarded and may end up being controlled by the state in order to feed the populace. There are elements in Soylent Green and Road Warrior that could become commonplace.
Republikanerne fikk oss inn i dette rotet! Republikanernes suge.
Norwegian
The Republicans got us into this mess! The Republicans suck.
Is there a geek in the house? My hard drive seems like it’s about to crash. I went and bought a flash drive and a friend came over and put everything important on it.
I will need a new computer momentarily. What should I buy?
LOLOLOL
btw
Prop 8 Supporters Blackmail Supreme Court with Recall Threat up
التعذيب هو ضد القانون الدولي. وعندما هم المجرمين بوش ستكون والقبض عليهم بتهمة ارتكاب جرائم حرب ضد الإنسانية؟؟
Arabic
Torture is against International Law. When are the Bush criminals going to be apprehended and tried for War Crimes against Humanity??
I bet they want to know if the west will uphold the international laws.
A new hard drive is cheaper than a new machine.
Two options GW
1 Buy one now before this one dies!
2 Go buy a new hard Drive… Caveat you need the OS that came with your PC and you need to know what kind of drive goes into that particular PC..
If the PC is more than five years old you should buy a new one!
Dell has some great Pcs on Sale right now! Let me know if that is what you want to do.
But then you have to know how to install it and install the OS and all the Apps.
I know I can do it but…
A new PC can be purchased for $500+ but not a whole lot more and it will be much faster..
Beauty and simplicity at its best
Plus the OS software for anything after Win98 doesn’t come with the machine, just a recovery disc that reformats the hard drive and returns the machine to the factory install. New machine is a better idea and the dealer should be able to transfer files from the old machine to the new. I have to get an enclosure kit to transfer the files from my old drive to the new machine. With PCs the only OS available off the shelf is Vista.
OK ES you plugin for Newt??
Nahant and Southern Dragon
Thanks for helping me with this.
it’s an eMachine I bought in May 2006. When I push the power button, sometimes absolutely nothing happens on the monitor, the fan whirrs, the hard drive light stays on solid. I hooked up my spare monitor and have eliminated the possibility of it being a non-working monitor. A repair person I spoke to on the phone said eMachines aren’t good and aren’t expected to have a much longer life than mine has had. He said it sounds like it could be a motherboard/power supply and I forget what else problem.
Then I said it was making clicking sounds and having Write Delay errors and he added HardDrive potential crash. And that I should get my important stuff off the computer and buy a new one.
I was at Best Buy today. Saw a Gateway dual core Pentium 2.5 GHz with 640 GB hard drive and 4 GB ram with a 19″HD LCD Wide Screen Monitor for $600.
Is it better to buy a Dell?
A Mac? I’ve always had PC’s but also looked at a MacLaptop and an iMac.
You can use a network hub and use Easy Transfer to copy all your files and setting. Also when buying a new PC you Can order the OS on a CD. Something I always do… Hard drives do Fail!
At the store today they also had the old 13inch laptop that’s discontinued on sale for $1000. 2.1 gig Intel Core 2, 120 GB Hard Drive.
I used a laptop at work a long time ago and liked it. Mostly because I liked being able to be sitting in the living room with it when I took it home at night.
it must be nice
No not at all. *g* You and newt are masters of the gizmo world.. I am a luddite!
As a luddite i equate owning a PC to needing to own and know how to run a carmengia repair shop.
Owning a mac is like driving a sports/luxury car that almost never needs so much as an oil check.
Never ever buy a Gateway. I have had to support them and they were the pits! I have had no problems with Dells and they usually work for years! They have a Dual core Quad processor Inspirion 530 for $699 with the monitor (which you don’t seem to need) it also has 4gigs of memory and a 640gig hard drive! Vista 64bit which make it faster as it handles a wider page of data. Although some Apps are not taking advantage of it yet but they will as it is the processor of the future!
My situation was pretty much the same as yours. Had an eMachine and the sound went out. Took it to Best Buy and the motherboard died while they were doing the diagnostics. This was at the beginning of Sep and being the treasurer for a congressional campaign I didn’t have a lot of time to fool around. I had all my important files on a flash drive so that wasn’t an issue. I got a Gateway GT 5694, 22″ widescreen and printer for $800. Dell’s prolly a better machine, Mac definitely is. All my apps, etc are Windoze based so a Mac wasn’t an option this time round.
I can still work on Karma gia’s. Love synchronizing those dual carbs.
But when it breaks you WILL pay premium for the repair and you have to buy Apple parts!! And you do know it WILL break!! I have never seen a computer that doesn’t fail at some point, even the big network attached servers(60+ terra bites) break, although they come with an up time guarantee of 99.9999 per cent of the time. They still break..
thanks for that gateway advice! and the dell info.
question 1: pc or mac? why?
question 2: desktop or laptop? why?
then, what exact item to buy?
Sounds like my 65 Austin Healy.. last year they made the little ones… Used to tune it up almost weekly… But I got 35 to 45 mph and man did it handle…I sure miss that little car..
some of us are mere plebeians and cannot afford the top of the computer line
But I have had 4 or 5 macs and one PC over the last 18 years.. The PC spent months in the shop.. beginning on the second day of ownership!.. not one mac of mine has ever spent a day in the shop.
If you like tinkering inside these things.. PC’s are probably fine.. if, like me, you are mortified by the idea of needing to do that.. mac is the only way to go… plus I really love the way the Mac OS works and looks (what little I understand about it).
Lap tops are nice/portable, cost more and you are stuck buying most parts from the maker. I am one one now Dell Inspirion 1720 and love it.
A desktop in the long run is more versatile as you have expansion slots and can add hardware to them such as new video and video capture cards and also more hard drives!
I went with Lap top as I needed to be mobile with it! Then again I also have several servers running so… Depends… and not the ones you ware /s
Back in my amateur racing days in Europe we had a standing joke about Healey’s. You could always tell there was a Healey in front of ya because all of a sudden you’d start having to avoid engine parts on the road. I had a 65 MG B. Loved it. Love MGs. I’ve had a TD, A and a B.
Count me in that group.
wish I had a sugar daddy
They do cost more.. but for me.. never needing to know where the repair shop is… that alone makes it worth it.. plus the whole open the box, plug in, turn on, and never look back… ever.. pays for itself too.
I have never needed to reload my mac OS from disc.. ever. With windows it was a constant loss of valuable time.
anyway.. it’s just my experience. I am not one to have brand loyalty.. but mac broke the mold in me.
wish I had a sugar mama
When in Europe I had a 51 1/2 Porche Loved that one also… Was fun to pass BMW 2000 in the corners… but they had me in the straights… but still sure was a lot of fun… you couldn’t roll one one without a lot of effort… We used to go to hill climbs and Grand Prix of 68… was that ever fun!!
Loved driving in the mountains. Passing all those fancy cars comin’ out of S turns. Crazy as shit but sure was fun. Remember the big Citroen sedans with the turn signal flags? Man, those suckers could hook it up in the straights.
i drove an old porsche back in the early 60’s. i loved that car. it was absolutely amazing what it did on the turns.
Don’t we all!! Then I could build a PC like I really want with Quad Quad Xeon Processors and at least 16 gigs of memory just for starters! But alas I don’t have a Sugar Mama… just my sweetie(:>)) And I wouldn’t trade her in for anything!!
Oh, man, the machine I could build. Actually have built cuz I’m no good with electronics. Software’s a different story. But, alas, all’s I gots is tigers and they won’t even answer the phone, much less get a job. But then I’ll take unconditional love over a new machine any day.
I wish I still had my old sports cars here in the bay Area they would be lots of fun in the hills with all those curves…
Europe was fun back then, while I was in in Pirmasens our little MW station 15 people we had fours Porches and three Alfa Romeo’s, we would go on road trips together and man would we get lots of gawking at the cars.
Expensive to feed? Have you misplaced any friends lately?
With the roads here in FL ya just can’t drive ‘em like they should be driven. Not much fun drivin’ in a straight line for 150 miles or so. Boooooring. I wouldn’t mind havin’ an MG TD or perhaps an XK E just to putt around in.
Speaking of feeding time to make my dinner! My Sweetie is out rehearsing with the Choir so it’s me and Tucker the best Maltipoo in the 12lb class
Now don’t tell me you haven’t heard where I got the tiger label?
greenwarrior
My macbook cost 999.00 and it’s still at that price on their page today.
What’s up with all the Yellow Peril posts? China is a developing country with an export oriented economy at the beginning of a worldwide recession.
Were any Americans involved in helping the setting up of SAIC?
I fear our two-party system with alternating power makes the Dems too weak to fight the Republicans if they should choose to sell out America. Divided we fall.
sorry I did miss that….
The last act will be ugly
Americans have been rather nastily chauvinistic and trigger-happy even while we have been the world’s unchallenged hyperpower. What do you imagine we’ll be like when other nations actually do have our backs up against the wall?
It’s all well and good to compare our financial and fiscal situation to that of Argentina at the time it defaulted. But there is this one huge difference between the US and Argentina — the US military. If we nationalized our foreign-held debt, our creditors would not be able to get tough with us. They wouldn’t even be able to stop lending us money, except we would perhaps stop calling them loans, and call them payments for protection against global terrorism, or some such. Nations that didn’t pay their protection money would have their trade halted by the US Navy. Even a China depends on commodity imports.
Our demagogues, this country’s very own Banana Republicans, might well hit on a strategy of repudiating foreign-held debt as a way to redirect the electorate’s anger at them over the current financial, and looming fiscal, crises; onto them damn furriners. But should our foreign creditors start something themselves to get tough with the US, I think it almost inevitable that the Right would demagogue that crisis in the direction of repudiation of debt, followed by a tributary empire relying on our armed might to extort protection money out of the rest of the developed world.
Eureka Springs has it right. I to have owned 1 Pc and numerous macs, all away back to the Apple IIGS. The macs never broke down (except one, it was the first I-mac and first generation and still lasted 5 years and 1 adult, 2kids). The pc, bad from the beginning. Would recommend mac hands down.
Without admitting the situation is hopeless and that only one path is possible…
I think you could look at the Nixon era when they could imagine the end of Soviet Union and Nixon met with the Chinese and they had George H. W. Bush as ambassador to China. They could imagine a future without these countries as enemies. They could imagine the world as it became in 1990.
Or, you could look a bit further down the road to the ‘entrepreneurial’ 1980s when the Reagan-Bush team began down the road to world free trade.
Or you could say that politically the country changed and the Republicans saw that and knew they wouldn’t be able to win again because of demographics beyond their control and so the Dubya era perhaps signals the ‘big sellout endtimes’ for America.
I think that if there WAS a time it had to do with Republicans because Democrats have always been trying to heal and unite America and reach toward the ideals of the Constitution.
Yep. Funny how nobody’s really told the American public about that stark reality, eh?
I don’t think that is the key issue either. Profit or not the cost of the system has to be affordable to whomever pays (individual, company or taxpayer). It has to be an integral part of the cycle of money reflecting the real economy. It has to be a normal part of someone’s standard of living whether their company pays for it, whether they pay for it or whether the government pays for it. Question is, will the Rich allow us that standard of living or continue to demand we live a significantly poor life, so they can keep us under their thumbs.
Then, if that isn’t a big enough question, if the American people demand that standard of living will the Rich fulfill the threat they have always used against union strikers to close up the plant, shut down and go to some other country. There’s growing evidence many of them will. In many parts of the ‘industrial mid-west’ this has been happening since the 1980s and that’s one reason non-rich incomes have remained flat since the ’80s.
Play out that scenario and ask what America does then.
Tough question to answer, but you might want to read
http://rawstory.com/news/afp/N…..92008.html
about a new generation of computers.
Pwn? Is this ‘pawn’ with a typo? How do you pronounce it? It’s not a word and using it as such, makes the user look silly. Even worse, have you considered how it sounds to someone trying to read this post with a screen reader or audio desktop? The headline will make no sense at all. Please, have a little consideration for those who use assistive technologies, and use real English (or other preferred language), and proper punctuation – these things make all the difference to visitors who have to listen to the Web instead of seeing it.
Thank you.
Pwn
one of the beauties of the English language is that it is not static.
Or we could see the insanity of our ways and heal ourselves. The Ayn Rand style entrepreneur is a crazy suicidal killer except he wants to bring all of us down. Take George Bush’s recent regulations against the environment. Why do we want to cut the tops off mountains, pollute streams and foul the air more than it already is? Why do we follow these assholes? What can we do to break the pattern?
So true; the English language is my trade – I’m a typographer, copy editor and proof reader. Pwn isn’t progress, maybe it came about because someone meant to type own and just made a typo – it’s not in my OED.
Class of ‘72 here also, and IT’S a pet peeve of mine as well…
Gaming term for “power own” according to my 16 yr old gamer daughter… like “I pnwd you!” Or something to that effect.