I watched with interest the first round of questioning by Senate Democrats of the Big 3 auto execs yesterday. They’re still dancing around each other but the battle lines have been drawn: Right-to-work red state senators want to destroy Detroit so Toyota and Honda can build beatific non-union plants in their states, while the Big 3 execs assert that all they need is cash to weather the current credit crunch and it will all be beer and skittles again.
We know the first group is full of shit, but how about the second?
I had a very enlightening converation with former Wall Street GM analyst Ron Glantz, who is also a founding partner of Pantera Capital Management, a global macro hedge fund. Ron made the Institutional Investor All America Research team 17 times, and was the number one auto analyst for seven consecutive years.
Although we have a philosophical difference about the situation at hand, his analysis is sobering and deserves serious consideration.
Ron’s message was unambiguous — he believes that Congress should let GM die.
In his 60 Minutes appearance, Obama said that he believed that assistance to the auto industry should be "conditioned on labor, management, suppliers, lenders, all the stakeholders coming together with a plan (for) what does a sustainable U.S. auto industry look like."
Ron didn’t think such a thing was feasible for a variety of reasons I’ll get to later, but I asked him to humor me. Assuming that the government somehow took on responsibility for the healthcare of GM workers, what would such a plan look like?
Ron said that first and foremost, unions would have to accelerate their 2010 concessions and vote to surrender their pensions, which are also a part of the legacy costs — "difficult," he said, "because retirees vote in elections and there are 4 or 5 retirees for every one still working."
Secondly, he said that "bondholders have to agree to trade in their bonds for equity in order to remove the interest payments on the bonds and improve the industry’s balance sheet."
When he was analyzing GM 2 years ago, the outstanding bonds had a $300 billion face value. It’s less now because they sold off part of GMAC, but because a lot of their sales were to blue collar workers who needed financing, the credit crunch means they can’t sell cars. One of the reasons for the October sales collapse was that in September, GMAC stopped auto leasing and raised credit standards.
The overriding problem, however — and the one he thinks is insurmountable — is the legacy of bad product that the US auto makers have in this country.
Right now, it’s harder to sell American cars in America than it is to sell foreign brands. So if Toyota and Chevy make the exact same car, the American car has to be sold for $4000 less (factoring in both American buyer’s nervousness that the brand will go bankrupt, along with bad product legacy). Ron said that American automakers have now developed the same worker productivity that the Japanese automakers had by changing their culture, and can build just as good a car, but consumer trust isn’t there and nobody will buy them at the value they will give for a foreign brand.
"The guy who buys an American car is like the only person at the party who doesn’t get the joke," he said.
His experience tells him that Wagoner represents "genuinely bad management. He likes Bob Lutz (father of the Volt) but thinks that he is "fighting with one and a half hands tied behind his back." He also thinks highly of GM President Fritz Henderson.
He thinks the Volt is largely a PR concern at this point because it doesn’t have a battery and there isn’t the R&D money available for Lutz to work with (though the battery issue seems to have had some resolution). He says the Cruze may be a very good car, but they’re going to build and sell them them in Korea because it costs less to build there. He also believes the Malibu is an excellent car.
For the near future, he thinks that GM has a much brighter possibilities overseas where there is more faith in their brand. Just this month they put cash into a Russian auto plant because they can build Opels there, and it seems that Buicks actually sell quite briskly in China.
Possibly the most interesting thing he said was that Americans are never going to buy low-mileage cars at a price that is going to be profitable to auto manufacturers unless there is a gas tax levied. So what he proposes is that an escalating gas tax be put in place for the future in order to give people time to prepare, such that they know gas will cost $4 a gallon at the end of this year, then $4.25, then $4.50, etc. Otherwise, both demand and profitability are going to lie with gas hogs whenever gas prices are low.
Bottom line — he thinks GM should probably just declare bankruptcy, break the contracts with the unions, close 75% of the plants and sell the rest to the Japanese with the promise to employ some UAW workers. He said GM passed the tipping point years ago and is probably beyond redemption, and that he sees no need for the United States to have an ongoing auto manufacturing interest.
I have a fundamental philosophical belief that the US should not cede domestic auto manufacturing to foreign companies for a variety of reasons — not the least of which is I think it would be demoralizing and economically destabilizing at a difficult time. But after listening to Ron, it because clear that the most daunting task before GM is the rehabilitation of its brand. The $1000 per car legacy costs pale beside the $4000 devaluation due to lack of consumer confidence.
If it’s possible for GM to come back, the hope really does rest with the Volt. Its $40,000 pricetag means it’s not going to be a cheap mass-market car, but much like the "green marketing halo" that the Prius cast over the Toyota brand, the Volt has the potential to reinvigorate GM’s image. Reviews are glowing, and the 100+ mpg it promises put it leagues ahead of anything else from a major manufacturer on the market at the same time.
If GM were making crap cars, not even the Volt could save them. But as Ron notes, they are making cars that are just as good as those produced by Japanese manufacturers. They can deliver the goods.
Day 1 of the auto hearings (liveblogged by emptywheel and he NYT) were very dramatic and compelling. It will be interesting to watch over the next few days to see if the automakers, the unions and the lawmakers try to cobble together the kind of plan Obama has called for, a vision for a "sustainable U.S. auto industry" — if such a thing is possible.
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Zed! Hi Jane
With no big three making cars what to stop Toyota and Honda from moving the plants to Mexico where costs are really low. Its only the threat of being shut out of the American market that keeps the Japanese building cars here.
If we no longer have cars made in America by American companies we will have no choice but to buy their cars no matter where they are made.
Republican fat cats on Wall Street are responsible for the financial meltdown and now we have myopic management at GM/Ford/Chrysler who are primarily Republicans who have brought the U.S. auto industry to the brink of collapse. Republicans, the greatest threat to the Republic since the Civil War.
I guess there’s a reason why Glantz is not a macroeconomist. All that he says my be accurate (though I would argue on several points), but it’s all irrelevant in current circumstances. This is not the time to bite any bullets. It’s the time to hold the economy together with chewing gum & bailing wire. Let the long-run adjustments occur in more stable times.
Shorter version: Glantz sounds like a big supporter of the Shock Doctrine. And we know where that leads.
Why decide this now why not wait for Obama to be President?
Wow, a heavy metal hedge fund.
Who will buy these cars, pray tell,the Auto manufacturing jobs are the last of the decent paying jobs in the country for the common man, even then the wages have been cut in half with no benefits. Good luck selling cars or anything else in this country.
Still like to know if the auto industry goes down will thewre be losses in CDSs?
Good article, Jane.. it bothers me that we don’t hear from this guy, and others like him, during the hearings. Seems they have much to add to the conversation objectively.
ps: I favor a bridge loan with strings (taken from the TARP funds)until further more intensive hearings can produce long term objectives under the new administration. Lost jobs and manufacturing capability and/or further brand desecration per bankruptcy is not a good idea.
Speculation is that the Auto companies will have burned through too much cash by then.
we have to start making the point that unions are not the problem products being imported without unions are the problem and those products need to face tariff
that would serve two purposes, first it would make domestic products more competitive here in the states, second, this country was once funded with tariffs, this would increase federal revenue witout raising domestic taxes
we cannot support product that is produced with wages that are similar to slave labor, we cannot import products that come from countries that do not support their labor force
Since I haven’t been keeping up the last few days will someone tell me why everything seems to be focused on GM? Isn’t Ford in trouble, too? Less trouble?
Will someone please ask Jimmy Carter what he thinks about just ‘LOANING’ some money to any of the ‘Big Three’. Been there done that!
Glantz makes some very cogent observations; he also I think gets a lot wrong. For one, the branding bit. If Chevy’s are seen as stable (no BK) and are making interesting quality product (which they really are on the road to doing with the Volt and that will help downline models which are also improving greatly; see the Malibu), people will buy them.
I am riding with Jane, not Glantz.
The Volt is going to cost $40K? whoa.
That’s a chunk of change for a vehicle with a forty mile range – good luck selling that one.
OT
Bunning just reamed out Paulson in the Barofsky hearing. Good theater.
The name escapes me at the (senior) moment but the Irish have a “commission” comprised of business, labour, and government interests that meet and decide what the years increases will be. It works quite effectively, all parties know in advance what will transpire and business can base their plans upon, labour knows their wage packets, pensioners will know the increase in pension, government has a basis for their calculations, nobody is at anybody’s throat, the system works quite well and mostly eliminates friction between the parties. It might be looked into as an operating program for cooperation as opposed to adversarial conflict.
With regard to the legacy costs, do the foreign manufacturers building here pay health insurance? I have heard that it is an insignificant stipend. What is the impact on the # of uninsured if these costs are transfered to the public or to the worker.
The question is why do we drive our great, great grandparents fossil fueled combustible engines 118 years later? Auto innovation doesn’t exist. By the 1890’s commercial production of motor vehicles with internal combustion engines, reached their modern stage of development. In fact, the models of that decade were so successful that there has been no fundamental change in the principles of the ordinary automobile engine since that time.
Monopolies are the death of R&D. GM, Ford, and Chrysler have not been in the carmaking business for a long time. There are in the profitmaking business.
I want to know how Toyota, Nissan, and other foreign car manufacturers in the USA get away with charging Union Made prices on their cars? The foreign auto plants in the US are non-union and the wages are less.
Bingo
what about the Wankel?
Yes. That actually worked out quite well. Very good point.
Barofsky’s body language is perfect. Slight frown to indicate how serious the IG job is. Wonder who is coach was.
didn’t we loan money to chrysler and save them?
and didn’t we come out far ahead in that deal?
I do not mind one bit loaning the auto industry, so long as there are assets attached to that loan
Hope it wasn’t Shumer who nominated him.
Does any of the above sound familiar?
Missed the introduction but indeedy doody, Schumer did it so he must be the one.
Where does that passage come from?
Oh great the guy who brought us Mucasey
I think Congress should consider legislation creating a new bankruptcy chapter designed to deal exclusively with the auto giants.
This new chapter would be similar to chapter 11, but would have features designed to overcome the particular problems Chapter 11’s rules pose
for the auto giants, their workers and consumers.
From my understanding, the fact that the US Auto maker has 4 to 5 retirees for every current worker is the greatest issue. Those retiree’s healthcare benefits and pension costs have to be accounted for. The foriegn car makers are not burdened with those legacy costs.
A smidgeon of family news.
Our younger sonny boy is a self-taught, extremely knowledgeable car buff. Not the acquisitive sort – he hasn’t any money to spare, really; but he can out-talk virtually any car salesman about whatever car the fella’s hawking, specs and perks & reliability et al. Whut’s under the hood, where its pieces-parts were made, and by whom…
Sonny recently bought just a token nugget of GM stock. He says the mgmt’s been reckless and thick-headed for years; but right now, their newer offerings are viable basis for rebounding and growth of the company, if only…
I remember a Toyota in 1968 sounding like a box of gravel being spun around. We’ve come a long way from that. Transmissions and fuel saving technologies have been innovative. On and on.
Fossil fuel is the most energy rich resource and storage medium, straight from the sun. It’s the path of least resistance among the available choices, still.
It looks like the folks in DC are hell-bent to give the stimulus package another try seeing as the first one didn’t have any real effect.
This time it’s the car industry.
While the sanity of blowing cash around and running the national debt up even further is questionable; it seems inevitable – so this time let’s target unemployment, create AMERICAN jobs and pump up the economy all at one time.
Consider the following:
Manufacturing costs of motor vehicles are 65% labor (i.e.: W-2 income), that’s not all direct but due to suppliers. GM alone has over 1300 suppliers.
(That’s a lot of jobs!)
1 in 10 Americans makes all or part of their income due to the automobile industry.
Money turns over 5 times in a year.
Thus a vehicle with a manufacturing cost of 20K produces 13,500 in W-2 income which in turn becomes a total of 65K in 12 months due to the 5 turnovers.
(This isn’t magic, it’s simply how the economy works.)
Our domestic car makers are saddled with legacy costs, most of which will reduce dramatically in 2010 due to contract changes.
They need to survive to get there.
This whole mess is not solely due to the unions
It would be easy to simply blame the unions; and it’s certainly not my job to defend them; however as it regards the current mess in Detroit, the facts get in the way.
The UAW has already made massive concessions some of which are already being implemented and others are timed to roll in over the next year or so.
Our own over-zealous government with an alphabet soup of regulatory agencies has been no help either.
Foreign competitors have worked off-shore collectively to meet various US gov’t. imposed emission and safety standards, thus dramatically reducing those R&D costs.
American car companies are prohibited from that by our FTC.
Make no mistake; it’s no surprise that once again government has been a major part of the problem.
Here’s the solution.
Instead of either shipping cases of cash off to car makers; or sending us all another check:
Send out a voucher for say $1,000 good on a motor vehicle for the percentage of the vehicle that’s domestic. (Civic = 70% Ford Explorer=80%)
Let those not interested in a new car sell or give away their vouchers (Ebay would be loaded with them in no time flat) and those that are so inclined can use as many as they can get their hands on up to the full MSRP of the vehicle.
This would bail out the car industry without giving them a dime directly
Further it would reduce the overall age of the nation’s cars which would in turn;
increase overall fuel economy & decrease pollution.
Strengthen the dollar!
Since vehicles with a higher domestic content would be moving better this would reduce our imports, strengthening our dollar which would in turn further reduce what we pay for anything imported …like gas!
Jobs
Instead of simply bailing out a few big companies, this would cause such a run that it would create employment throughout the industry affecting over 1300 suppliers and their workers.
That would give the economy good swift kick right where it needs one!
Pays for itself!
Since money turns over 5 times, and the vouchers are only good for the domestic content of the vehicle, every dime would be spent in the United States creating taxable income.
What is the income tax on 65,000 anyway?
(Remember? 20K manufacturing cost = $13,500 W-2 income x 5 = $65,000)
Another Stimulus Package?
I’m sure you’ll agree that this makes more sense than simply sending out checks; many of which will be used to buy new flat screen TV’s usually made in Malaysia or some such place.
Yes. I gather that departing SDNY USAtty Garcia (who had a role in hounding Spitzer) suggested him.
fyi – day two of the auto industry hearings is now with barney frank’s house financial services committee.
GM should absolutely die. 60 nameplates? WTF? Chrysler should die as well, if only because their Snow-Blind ownership, Cerberus, has committed the most phenomenal acts of gross incompetence by acquiring both Chrysler and GMAC at their highs when it was readily apparent that they would fail.
Put together a rescue package for Ford and their suppliers. GM is toast.
Bottom line…America has all of the homes and cars it needs for the next five years. The auto industry is guilty of “selling it forward.” By that I mean that at the height of the housing bubble, they were offering zero% interest to everyone, resulting in new car sales that literally cannibalized their future sales in the out years. I knew it – they knew it too. Why do you think two of the three top executives of the Big Three are newbies? Where are the executives who caused these problems in the first place? Yachting, with the ill-gotten gains afforded them by their oil-industry holdings – payola for obstructing use of alternative fuels and development of more fuel-efficient vehicles?
At the peak of the real estate bubble, Chrysler was advertising its new line of “HEMI” trucks…as oil was racing toward $150 per barrel.
You want me to subsidize that stupidity?
Follow the (oil) money, and tell those bastards (David Rockefeller and Queen Beatrix and the Crown) to bailout not only the auto industry, but America.
Yayyyyyy! You’re the first to mention the unmentionable! I’ve been waiting here forEVAH for some kind soul to remember.
Your prize? Darned if I know. Recognition from a friend, I suppose. *g*
My mechanic informed me there are several issues with american cars.
1. 70% of the parts are foreign. But the foreign cars made in the USA are 70% parts US/Canadian made.
2. The engine designs must’ve been drawn by morons on crack. Another problem is trying to access parts that have a short-life span (another issue with the big 3) and are difficult to repair. Thus, cost of labor outweighs the part cost sometimes 9X the part.
3. Toyotas and Nissan parts are built to last thereby, parts have 10x lifespan compared to american autos.
4. A Saturn/GM service manager once told me the real moneymaker in american made cars were the repairs/parts/labor, not the purchase of the cars.
The big 3 were premeditaive in gouging their customer base for decades. The bailout of Chrysler in the 70’s did not change the status quo. Instead they became entrenched in their mindset of profitmaking and bailouts via the taxpayers.
Unfortunately, the union workers will get stiffed due to greed and carelessness of upper management in neglecting innovation and research.
The Volt is a hybrid gas/electric. It can go 40 miles before the gas engine kicks in.
I suppose the gas engine can also kick in in times of necessity.
I gather that any kind of bankruptcy is thought to influence adversely people’s willingness to buy the car. Even if they have a guarantee that recalls, etc., will proceed smoothly. A promise apparently is not as good as an ongoing company backing up the promise.
Sitting here in Detroit, in year #3 or #4 of a deep recession, I don’t even know where to begin with all the points that Gantz is wrong about. His is an amazingly narrow and short sighted perspective.
This is not the time for union busting. This is not the time for beating up the Big 3 for not learning to be a lot greener since the 1970’s (people wanted SUVs and so, supply and demand, the SUVs were built). This is not the time for political gamesmanship. If not for the economy, the Big 3 would not be begging for money. Do they need to bring their business model up to date? Absolutely! Are there myths getting repeated by MSM? Absolutely! Did the CEOs of the banks/investment firms/insurance companies need to come beg and be ridiculed or were they just handed hundreds of billions with no direction for its use? Could Bush have helped the auto companies over the past 8 years or did it take 6 years for him to meet with them for 16 minutes, to tell them he would not help them? This is not all the fault of the Big 3. Okay, it turned into venting. Sorry.
The government bailout of Harley Davidson was also a stunning success, I think.
Why should I pay $40K for that car when i can get a BMW or Lexus for the same money. They will probably be just as green, have way better resale value, and better factory warranty support (based on past history with GM).
Selling that car for that much will be a steep ramp. I predict the low volume of sales will be breathtaking.
i wonder how much that $4000 dollars will shrink as the economy tanks. will consumers continue to be willing to pay so much extra?
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs…..8811170379
6 biggest myths regarding the Big3
intriguing moniker sir/madam. welcome to our lair, as long as you’re trolling and not bowling.
s’cuse, but watch yer step. still sweeping up electionhooplasundries.
I agree with a lot of what you say. The Big Three did respond to competition by improving their products. I don’t own a car so who am I to say, but the last one I owned a Ford minivan, was a great vehicle. I had no complaints.
People forget that in a period of low gasoline prices and economic prosperity, auto companies responded to market conditions by making monster cars, and making a lot of them. They should have been put out of their misery if they hadn’t.
Sure some other automakers did it better, and were better situated to take advantage of higher gasoline prices, but the sins of the Big 3, to me, don’t seem to warrant capital punishment.
this calls for restructure, it certainly does not call for unloading the auto industries labor force on an economy that can’t support the laborers in need of employment.
the auto industry made a big mistake not tooling up and researching alternative fuels.
I say the oil industry should actually be funding this “re-tooling” since it is the oil industry that lobbied to remove incentive from of alternative fuel from the manufacturers
You are correct, but I think those things can be addressed in the sort of new bankruptcy legislation I am proposing.
Conversely, how can anyone buying a car from these folks now feel good about warranties, recalls, replacement parts etc? They can’t and that is why unless something radical isn’t done these companies are toast.
It is my understanding that under the most recent negotiations the benefits have been transfered to the unions (through lash transfers) and the unions will be administering the funds.
Years ago, Palestinian-American friends of mine from Grand Rapids often remarked upon the unbelievably bad parts warehoused by the majors. Parts are big part of the auto business, to be sure.
“Otto, it means eight.”
What do you think second quarter GDP would have looked like without the tax refunds?
The malibu is good car? Really? What’s it gas mileage? Compare that to Hondas and Toyota averages.
The problem with the not-so-Big Three is that they ARE hellbentforleather stuck with building gas guzzlers. They are ALWAYS behind the Japanese. ALWAYS. They are ALWAYS trying to play catchup while the Japanese innovate and improve. This is NO way to run a car company.
On top of that, isn’t it the GM President who poo-poos Global Warming? Fuck GM and SUV they drove into town in. They constantly whine and cry about how impossible and costly it is to make good, efficient yet powerful cars that people want (so they cry and whine about CAFE standards) yet the Japanese KEEP DOING THAT VERY THING!
The other morning at Attaturks, it was from something I said concerning the neocon grab for power.
Rather than go by random Anecdotes why don’t we compare actual car ratings. Take the Chevy Malibu, the Ford Fusion, and the Toyota Camry. What did JD Power and Associates rate them? Mostly the same.
It is funny to me that earlier in the week I really felt the way Ron does: that American Car companies have a tarnished reputation that needs to be fixed. Then I read Jane’s articles that she had been posting and felt that the risk to the economy was too great to let GM die. Jane, I think everyone appreciates that you are willing to investigate all of this so thoroughly.
That is a very good point.
Thanks.
He is right
in short, it’s a crazy, mixed-up mess.
one simply cannot buy a complete, USA-made car, by & large.
according to our sonny. i’m sure there are exceptions, but not many(!)
then you get into the American brands mgmt has moved offshore to build with cheap labor & no unions.
and “foreign” brands that move TO USA and build with American workers.
and both “foreign” and domestic brands, different in name only, but exactly alike under the hood.
*scratches head over loudobbsianism*
Don’t talk smack about Kobe’s future car!
Bull. SUVs were bought because they were made and marketed aggressively. Guess what? If there were no SUVs people would buy what was there, so long as it was good, like a Japanese car.
90% of SUVs and trucks out there on the road is stoopid money stoopidly spent on CRAP. Want to know what replaces an SUV with a superior auto? A Subaru 4WD station wagon with much better mileage and a longer lifespan.
You don’t need an SUV period. You don’t need a full-sized truck unless you are in construction/contracting AND carry a lot of your equipment with you or unless you live on a farm/ranch. Tom, Dick, Harry, and Sally NEVER needed an SUV or truck. They needed CARS that didn’t pollute and guzzle gas.
I’ve bought GM cars for years, since my father is a retiree. The quality coming off the line is just fine, and in some ways is superior to the foreign cars I drive (usually through renting).
My biggest gripe with GM over the past few years has not been about their manufacturing, design, etc. It’s about their dealers. They suck. I’ve had problems with my last two Pontiacs that were solely the fault of the dealers, who installed after-market security devices which they then tried to sell me when I came to pick up the car. I refused to buy the devices, but the dealers left them in anyway, and they caused years of impossible-to-diagnose chronic electrical system malfunctions. I finally had these devices ripped out, and both the dealers and GM refused to pay for the cost of doing so– GM because they didn’t install the device; the dealers because they’re assholes.
Auto dealers have always had a bad reputation, but I have never been treated as poorly at foreign-car dealers as I have at GM’s (with the exception of Saturn).
A GM customer almost never interacts with GM itself. Instead, GM for them is their local dealer. Because GM refuses to police these shysters, the company’s bad reputation is perpetuated needlessly. If I were Rick Waggoner, I would put the dealers on a three-strikes-you’re-out policy.
Nice article that shows both sides of the situation; the $4,000 negative goodwill currently associated with vehicles made by the Big 3 could best be overcome by the sort of differentiation of product that could be achieved by a 100 mpg vehicle. That is why I like government funding, but only if it is devoted solely to support of such technology as would eliminate this $4,000 hole; equal reliance and dependability of cars on par with Japanese and German cars will not erase the legacy cost of negative goodwill. . . and by the way, you’d have to kill me before I’ll get rid of the S4.
The $4000 price differential required to sell a US-made car is mostly a self-fulfilling prophecy. The bean counters at GM force the designers into cheap-looking and not exactly durable interiors to get the price down to that point. The ugly interiors are obvious as soon as potential buyers open the car door in the showroom.
My Ford Focus had great engineering, but the interior was falling apart at 35K miles. Both front seats, including the rarely used right front seat had tears in the seat fabric. My Mazda 3, which shares much of its mechanical design with the Ford Focus (especially the current European model) has a much more durable interior.
It doesn’t make sense to kill GM right now. The pension expenses have escalated in large part because of the explosion of medical costs, so if that is fixed by going to a single payer health insurance system, that would give GM a lot of relief. If we do bail out GM, we need to find people like Bob Lutz that have a clue about what kinds of cars people want to buy making the decisions, rather than clueless elitist management that are chauffeured everywhere they go.
Obama is probably smart enough to avoid a British Leyland style debacle where billions are frittered away in trying to save a completely moribund industry. GM and Ford are not like British Leyland. Current GM and Ford models are competitive with the imports which wasn’t true at all of any of the cars British Leyland was making. The shamefully low-quality models of the 70s thru late 80s are long gone. The unions are hostile to management, but are nowhere near as corrupt or crazy as the English unions were.
Something can be worked out I hope, but there has to be the threat of bankrupty over the heads to get all sides to come to the table and work together to make it happen.
I criticism of the Big Three notwithstanding, I am in favor of bailing them out WITH VERY STRONG, VERY SHORT STRINGS. The GOP is simply dragging feet on the bailout in order to bust unions AND kill the incentives for green cars. They want to use the money intended to help the American companies build RESPONSIBLE and needed green(er) cars and instead use that to bail them out so they can keep building SUVs and mega-trucks. They see this as a two-fer: kill unions to help the tiny elite superwealthy AND murder the environment the rest of the way.
Thanks. I know. We’re beyond proud.
Oh, that’s not his job.
He’s a gifted, not-quite-starving pro, classical oboe player. can make yer heart melt at 40 paces.
Please consider supporting your local symphony, folks. they’re dying also, but not for lack of expert musicians. And no, they’re not elitist in the slightest.
Heh. Welcome out of the DOJ.
You are right, the whole dealer system needs to be redone. Lines need to be consolidated and the number of dealers substantially reduced. I don’t have a link handy, but there is an excellent discussion of this over at EW somewhere in the last few days.
People wanted the SUVs – a few actually needed them. We have an old Explorer because our dogs are too big to fit in anything else – not the Escape Hybrid and not the Subaru wagon (which my sister and nephew drive). The rage over the SUVs uses hindsight, which is always 20-20.
The newer Japanese branded cars, especially Hondas, have bloated to fit the fatter American buyers, apparently. They’re disgusting looking. The Fit is now in the size class of the Civic as the later went up to compact size. Brand loyalty can be irrational. The herd can be irrational.
Simple, yet signifcant solution:
1. Congress refuses to bailout big 3
2. Congress provides $100 billion over 5 years(?) to increase Public Transportation.
3. Results would be many more jobs in public transportation. Production of more fuel-efficient buses (hydrogen cell) and extending rail transit creating accessability from the suburbs into the cities. Increase spending on infrastructure; new structure building and repairs of existing structure.
Overtime, less cars on the road, reduction of pollution, less reliance on foreign fossil fuels.
do you need links?
Who Killed THe Electric Car? presents a fascinating story. California legislation necessitated a zero-emmissions car. GM produces thousands of EV2’s and leases them to happy customers. Key State legislator works to reverse the zero emmissions law he helped to enact.
GM refuses to renew leases, repossesses all the EV2 cars from customers who are now angry. They cannot renew their leases. GM crushes the cars (in like new condition) in spite of protests.
heh heh
G’morning Jane. I hope you are doing well. Wide-awake, I see.
Thanks for this Jane.
As a manufacturing guy for 3 decades I have some intense and informed feelings on this subject. I will begin work on a diary for Oxdown this evening. There seems to be a great deal of misconception about not just the auto making business but manufacturing in general.
We cannot be short-sighted about the effects of losing any of the Big 3. There are national security risks (who will build the tanks and basic war machinery if they are needed? China?). There are millions of people who will lose their jobs (how many auto suppliers or car dealerships do you have in your county?) Those lost jobs result in a huge loss of federal revenue (if there are no employees and no companies, where do the taxes come from?). Not to mention this would completely bust the UAW and other unions as well, thereby basically wiping out what little is left of the middle class.
The country made a very good return on the Chrysler loan. This is not giving money away, this is a loan. To give up on what is virtually the last manufacturing industry in the USA is not just short-shighted, it is insane.
Malibu mpg 22
Camry mpg 21
Bmaz, I’ve seen a lot of talk about tax breaks to encourage purchases of the Volt, for instance. Many recommended high dollar amounts. How does this compare to Arizona’s alternative fuels fiasco?
Malibu 4 cyl 22 mpg City/33 mpg Hwy
Camry 4 cyl 21 mpg City/ 31 mpg Hwy
Camry 6 Cyl 19 mpg City/ 28 mpg Hwy
Just for the record, I have a ‘99 Honda Accord V6. My wife loves it it’s her car. The car has about 70k miles on it and just after it reached 50k (just after the warranty ran out)we had to get the transmission replaced. I will say that Honda, in their generosity, replaced it for free (we are good customers). But every other major component on the car has been replaced, not counting the engine directly, and we have had to get the entire car repainted at our on cost because the factory paint began to deteriorate at about 40k miles. Honda said “Sorry not our problem”. At the time that paint job cost a little over $3Gs
I have owned American made cars for longer than I have owned this car, that never had these kinds of problem until much later in their life.
There you go.
Kill the car (mostly) and turn it into something only those in rural areas really need/use (and for specialties like contractors and construction types). Focus on light rail, high-speed rail, and buses. There should be three high-speed PASSENGER train runs from East to West across the country with another 3 regional North-South corridors to connect them. Every major or moderate city should have light rail and buses…and be bike friendly to the extreme.
There should be zero private car traffic in any and all cities above 100,000, instead with all cars either left parked in driveways/garages or left at outer parking areas for park-and-ride train/rail/bus systems.
One problem is that we have no way to enforce “change”. If we bail out the auto companies (which makes a hell of a lot more sense than bailing out the banks)the companies continue with the same management, much like the banks continue with the same management.
I own a 2004 Chevy Impala with a little over forty thousand miles. Just had a front wheel bearing replaced. Hadn’t thought of the parts problem. It is, it turns out, foolish to buy an American car. That’s something the bailout won’t fix.
OK, par for the size but crappy (whether Japanese or American). NO vehicle of any size should get less than 25mpg IN THE CITY.
owned Hondas and never experienced such a problem, and our car “turnover” is not frequent; e.g. plenty miles & years/vehicle.
We don’t make a very big sample size, either of us, do we, ahem.
…oh, by the way, I have a reworked ‘87 Camaro with a balanced 350 that gets 25 MPG on the highway and about 20-21 MPG around town that will blow your doors off. That car is one of the cleanest burning cars I have ever owned.
All of your japanese manufacturers (6 or 7) make SUVs – The big Toyota SUV gets the same mileage as a Hummer
I wholeheartedly concur about the dealerships. My first car out of college was a geo metro. Cheap, and they planted a tree when you bought one. Cool. WTG, GM!
And the dealer I bought from in Oakland was great. But I moved to San Francisco. The San Francisco GM dealership of the mid 90s is why I will never own another GM car.
One day, I woke up, got up to go to work, and found that there was a dent in my car. Somebody had hit it in the middle of the night. I didn’t really know anything about fixing cars, or who to go to to deal with it, so went to the dealer to get a quote.
I had an appointment, but was made to wait about 45 minutes before talking to someone. There was an elderly African-American lady in front of me in line. It didn’t seem to be the first time she was in, but the guy asks here “What did you hit this time?”
After she’s done, I get to go into the office, he goes out to look at my car, takes 15 minutes, I look around. He’s got all these derogatory comics from Playboy posted on his wall about how dumb women are. I vow not to give him my money, and would have walked out, except the body section, being in a city, was on the third floor of the dealership, and I couldn’t just walk out, had to get them to give me my car.
He comes back and wants to know what I hit, too. Goodness. The first dent in the first car I own, I’m pretty upset as it is that someone hit my car and didn’t leave any insurance, and this loser assumes I hit someone, because I’m a woman? Puck that.
Thanks, but no thanks, GM. I don’t care what you make, I won’t buy it. I guess that guy has helped with that whole $4000 deficit you’re running. I had no idea that sexism had a price tag, but there you go.
KT
True
Yeah, interesting question. I dunno. I’ll say this, the two main problems with AZ Alt Fuels program were that it was allowed to be used on the most massive hunks o junk iron and didn’t you know, actually require them to run on an alternate fuel; and second, that the AZ treasury was not capable of handling the number of people who tried to avail themselves of the program because it was a scam.
Done right, restricted to truly electric or deep hybrid vehicles, I suppose it could work from a national perspective.
Thanks Jane.
Thanks to PhilPerspective for the digg. Please digg it.
Data from Consumer Reports–Top and Bottom 15 vehicle lines in terms of vehicle reliability. US lines bolded:
Top 15:
Scion
Acura
Honda
Toyota
Lexus
Infiniti
Subaru
Hyundai
Mitsubishi
Kia
Lincoln
Mazda
Mini
Nissan
Mercury
Bottom 15:
BMW
Suzuki
Audi
Saab
Chevrolet
Voldswagen
GMC
Mercedes-Benz
Jeep
Pontiac
Dodge
Cadillac
Chrysler
Saturn
Land Rover
I’d suggest that it isn’t that they’re building ‘just as good a car’ but have brand/image problems.
If that is the Ellis dealership; it is going out of business at the end of the year.
i have changed my mind. can’t let then fail. not now. ron may still be right. one of the three said it ain’t their fault. it’s just the current econ conditions. anyway, bush has put us over the barrel yet again. heck of a job.
guess u weren’t the fella breezed by us thru the school zone t’other day.
Sonny thinks GM mgmt were excruciatingly slow to adapt to obvious needs predicted for near future, thus deepening the financial hole in which they currently perch.
Then what’s to be said for the ludicrous bravado of dubya & bigthyme, ridiculing anyone daring to ask for low-mileage & hybrid etc. vehicles, and sneering smugly down their noses at those favoring more use of public transit.
Now THAT’s leadership to chew on.
True, and there IS a valid market for that (not the general public) but the Japanese fleets are not predominantly guzzlers like American companies are. Think Ford and one tends to think F-150, F-250, F-350, and Explorer, with a Mustang thrown in on the side. Think GM and one tends to think GM full-sized trucks and muscle cars. Think Chrysler and I think “old retiree driving a barge while looking through the steering wheel”. When I think Honda I think Civic, hybrid. Toyota? Prius.
American companies have over-focused on the SUV/full-sized truck market AND done everything they can to feed the market with agressive marketing.
I read an article about 5 years ago about a hybrid electric/gas full-size truck vehicle test by Ford or GM (can’t recall which). It was driven by an electric motor (primarily). That think had FAR more torque and acceleration than their biggest/baddest guzzler equivalent and what do they actually produce instead? What the Union of Concerned Scientists calls “fake hybrid” vehicles. Trucks with a tiny little battery stuck in it and a piddly little motor so they can call it a “hybrid”. Overall benefit? About 2% on gas mileage (and corresponding CO2, CO, etc, pollution). American companies simply are NOT serious about this stuff. The GM President poo-poos Global Warming and wants nothing more than to keep making, marketing, and selling guzzlers, damn the consequences.
I am for the bailout because of the fallout if they DO fail (NO to busting unions…we need many many MORE unions, not less) but I want strings: CEO pay cuts, drastically reduced dealerships, requirements that they focus on environmentally responsible cars AND TRUCKS (no exceptions on tougher CAFE standards…NONE), and that they NOT bust unions.
Yeah, I had a lot going on in my life back then, so I wasn’t paying much attention, but I do remember it being a bright, shining example of what not to do if you’re a government and you want to develop a program to encourage the purchase of fuel efficient cars!
now watch this drive… *oogh*
Who Killed The Electric Car??? GUESS!
A word from some old ‘broads’: Government Cheese of a Different Kind
Next time a link might be helpful:
After years of sterling reliability, Toyota is showing cracks in its armor, according to data from Consumer Reports’ 2007 Annual Car Reliability Survey. By contrast, Ford’s domestic brands have made considerable improvements.
http://blogs.consumerreports.o…..ility.html
that’s it. let the oil companies buy them. perfect.
It’s a bit difficult to listen to a Wall Street Analyst-hedge fund manager right now when our tax dollars are bailing out Wall Street.
Just for the record, I have a 1995 Toyota Corrola with apx 116K miles on it. It will take me to San Diego on one tank of gas (9 gallon tank), and when I say SD, I mean to the beach, not the edge of the city. The car is paid off and has been for years. It’s dependable, little has gone wrong with it since I’ve had it. I expect the car to last for the rest of my life, since I don’t drive much anymore, and most of these models have a life span exceeding 170K miles. I’ve heard of some Corolla’s living as long as 225K miles.
I drive a Ford F-150 4×4. Mainly it is highway driving and it gets a about 19 mpg. It is a 1997 and currently has 415,000 miles on it. They can last if taken care of.
I’ll admit my corolla-tercel (made for 6 months by Toyota) lasted 300,000+ miles on the same transmission and one replacement of the gear shaft. An accident took it out. I think I would still have it today (and that was 15 years ago).
but I want strings: CEO pay cuts. That’ll never happen. Congress is in the pockets of the big boys. History of the 1970’s bailout showed the worker being hammered.
…in late December 1979 Congress approved the Loan Guarantee Act, which included the demand that the UAW give up another $250 million in concessions, on top of the $203 million it had already agreed to.
By now it was clear that the effort to “save” Chrysler had little to do with protecting the jobs and living standards of Chrysler workers. Rather, the federal bailout was aimed at paying off the banks and other creditors with money extorted from UAW members, while shutting down or selling off large sections of the company.
The day after the shutdown of Dodge Main, Fraser signed a new deal with Chrysler, accepting a total of $475 million in give-backs. The contract included the elimination of 23 paid personal holidays, the deferral of wage increases in the second and third years of the agreement, the loss of Christmas bonuses, and other concessions that amounted to $4,000 in lost wages and benefits for each worker. When Canadian auto workers rejected the same package…By 1982 the UAW had handed over to Chrysler a total of $1.1 billion in concessions—nearly $10,000 per worker.
Consumer Reports website is proprietary, via paid subscription. I probably shouldn’t even have posted what I did.
Regardless, I tend to trust their opinion on issues of auto safety, reliability, and over all quality.
Nah, you SHOULD have posted their info because they are closed, paid subscription only. You did the right thing.
The biggest lie perpetuated on the american public; to save jobs. The Chrysler 70’s bailout is exactly what’ll happen again to the workers and maybe this time they’ll wipe-out the UAW, it’ll be one way or another.
If Congress was serious about saving the big 3, they’d take away the tax breaks for the foreign auto manufacturing plants in the USA. Impose tariffs. Encourage unionization of US workers in the foreign plants in the southern states (Jimmy Carter, a southern pres. hated the unions and began the decimation of unions). Passage of Universal healthcare would greatly enhance american companies competitiveness with foreign companies.
They won’t do this due to the purchase of US treasuries by the same foreign entities who flood US markets with foreign goods. It’s a one-way flood of foreign goods onto US soil. 70% of US treasuries are held by foreign governments; #1 China, #2 Japan.
Dr. Kirk Murphy has a new post up: “Eric Holder: Four More Years of Depravity at DoJ”
Came late. Glantz is an idiot. I really hate these guys who make reasonable arguments about something as long as you don’t look at the wider economy. We could apply his approach all over the place and in each and every instance it would make sense and perfectly justifiable but if you add up all these bankruptcies and re-organizations the result would turn the US into a 3rd world country.
I’ll just pass over briefly that the kind of solution that Glantz likes is one that while it would wreak havoc and misery on millions is a golden opportunity to hedge funds which love to pick over the pieces of large companies and sell them off at a profit. So thank goodness he can be objective about all this and has no horse in this race.
That said, I think that the US auto indutry sucks. It has sucked for decades. And we don’t need Glantz telling us that. But it is precisely financial analysts like him who have pushed GM executives into making stupid short term decisions over longer term more sustainable more responsible growth. These analysts rewarded GM with buy recommendations for building SUVs and gas guzzlers because GM could make more profit per unit on these. They didn’t say GM is making a mistake here and should be pushing for greener more fuel efficient cars or that it should be lobbying for universal healthcare to ease its financial burdens. Nope, but now it is all about cutting up all the automakers, trashing the contracts, and selling the parts to the Japanese. Gee, I never saw that coming.
The truth is at the moment I don’t care if GM and Ford suck. As I said, they have been for a long time now. What I am interested in is their impact on the larger economy. And yes, keeping them afloat is a big jobs program. So what? And if we can use this moment and the clout it gives us to send them into more responsible directions, fine. But they are only one piece of the puzzle. Glantz is correct that if autoworkers produce the cars there needs to be people out there with money to buy them and there have to be banks to lend them money.
Now this is the curious thing. People like Glantz have no problem letting the American auto industry fail. But that industry was doing OK until it got hit by first the spike in oil prices and then by the credit crunch. I would argue it should have seen both of these but it was responsible for neither. Both were in fact products of financial markets. If you have been around here any time at all you know I have written at length about excessive speculation in oil markets (item 365 of my scandals list) and the housing and financial crises (item 87). What I find so jarring about analysts like Glantz is that they have no problem seeing the collapse of parts of the real economy but when it comes to the paper economy, the banks and financial institutions which created this mess which both we and GM are suffering from, not so much.
So while it is interesting to know what these analysts are thinking, it is important to realize
1) their view is limited
2) they have major conflicts of interest
3) they are engaged in a lot of CYA right now
4) it would be lunacy to follow their advice without understanding 1-3.
Does any one consider the costs to our Federal, State and local governments that foreign car compaines in the US burden us with because they don’t pay health care, dental care, vision care, retirement packages? I assume the American workers and their families in these foreign car companies are just like most and have babies, get sick, need surgeries, get tooth aches, have car accidents, etc. If workers of foreign car companies in our country don’t give these benefits with their jobs than can’t we assume that our government is picking up the tab? What about the loss of taxes the government suffers from the foreign companies low wages? If we add the loss in tax dollars, loss of lower wages, and the fact our government is subsiding foreign car companies American workers health care, vision care, dental care and income would that bring them near the GM wages but only our government is subsidizing them?
I’m not sure I follow you completely, but rather than hitting ‘foreign’ car makers, I’d concentrate on getting health care costs off of american employers entirely.
Rahm Emanuel has just challenged american business to support universal health care. I challenge Rahm Emanuel to really make a difference and support a single-payer system. He knows that this is what is needed, especially now. Further, Hillary should nix the State gig, stay in the senate, and work with Uncle Teddy on health care. That is where she is needed. Want to free up american business–and american citizens–with one stroke of the pen? Single payer is needed. Use this dire emergency to push it through.
Back when Unions were powerful small job shops in Mi were sprouting up every where. Job shops were a brand new way of making auto parts and doing away with union workers. Many times these job shops were started from a former upper management of the big 3. I think of the foreign car companies in the US in the same light as I do these job shops. The workers in the job shops work in fear of losing their job everyday. Maybe they won’t make the quota of parts they could when they were younger and healthier. A new young worker threatens them every time one steps in the door because their eye vision is better and they aren’t saddled with arthritis, carpal tunnel syndrome, or other health related problems. Your kids, spouse, or parents get ill, some times seriously, and may take many days off of work and chances are good you will be fired. What I’m saying is there is a comfort zone when you work for a company that provides good wages, good benefits and know a check is coming in every week. There is pride in knowing you are not on the government’s welfare rolls. Has any one ever asked an employee in the US foreign auto plants if they would rather have work for them or one of the Big 3? And why?
What will it be like 5 years from now if the US auto industry goes down and the Unions become impotent?
What will the effect on the rest of this country be?
Will we have lower wages?
Will we still have an average 40 hour work week?
Will we still have overtime wages paid after working 40 hours a week?
Will there be such a thing as a paid vacations and paid holiday’s?
Will we still have OSHA?
Will we get the new green laws that planet earth needs so badly?
Will there be a snow ball effect and other large corporations do away with good wages and benefits?
Will more companies employ people from those temp worker agencies to avoid giving benefits?
We have just elected many public officials that ran on health care and green clean renewable energy agendas. Just before this all falls into place we are left with a rushed public debt of 700 billion in addition to the huge military debt of war and incompetence of the past 8 years from the Bush administration. Was Bush’s presidency a fluke, he just was not smart or did the past 8 years play out as planned? During his lamb duck season he is now writing laws to hurt and stall our plans and progress. Now we have a rushed decision to make to help the auto industry. Doesn’t it seem strange that GM might go bankrupt so soon before we get national health care, which is one of the excuses they use of needing money. And the other is retirement payments. Looking out 5 years from now, would GM be sitting pretty with National health care? Where were they on this issue, for or against it? This may be their only time they can claim health care as an excuse for bankruptcy. Is that why it is so dire to have help now BEFORE Obama takes the office of Presidency?
Excellent link but you won’t get the Detroit haters and Toyota lovers to even look at it.
Indeed. The Republican Party has mutated into the greatest threat to the future of the United States-greater than Al Qaeda, climate change,….