Well said.

As someone who lived through Nixon and followed the criminals from his administration through their criminal acts in Reagan/Bush I to today, if you don’t mind instead of singing Kumbaya, I’d rather [self censored in order to avoid angering the Mods].

No Justice, No Peace. Lack of justice for past transgressions is indeed traceable to the current injustices committed by the Bush administration. Why is this so hard for the Kewl Kidz to understand?

Who? I’m willing to let a new administration take office before I go down that road. GEE

I’m all for it — in theory. Does it really pack the wallop we hope for when a Democratic Congress/Democratic President holds a former republican administration responsible? Do the 47% who voted for McCain learn that you can’t mess with the Constitution, or do they learn that when it’s their turn again, they’ll be looking for blue dresses and what the meaning of “is” is?

I get the point. If Rumsfeld and Cheney had been stopped the first time, it’s hoped they would not have returned, or at least if they did, they would be chastened. I’m just not sure we get Justice when we can’t find a small group of republicans to agree with us that the parties who trashed the Constitution need to be held accountable. (With Nixon we had a group of honorable people in the Congress — WE were more honorable, it was a different time.)

Who is saying this, Ian? Can you be more specific? I haven’t heard any such remarks from Obama’s team…

How about because they watched my generation take to the streets for years to fight against the war and it didn’t mean shit?

really Well said.

Obama’s FIRST act must be to have Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Rove, Tennant, Wolfowitz, Gonzales, Mukasey and ever other person that has worked for Bushco. TRIED, CONVICTED [Mod Note: references to capital punishment are discouraged at the Lake - Thank You] FOR WAR CRIMES, WAR PROFITEERING, CRIMINAL INCOMPETENCE AND OUTRIGHT FUCKING TREASON!!!

Anything less and Obama is a FAILURE. The country needs to put it’s foot down and show that it stands for the RULE OF LAW!!!

Glenn Greenwald’s column today cites a few

Obama can’t do shit until he gains office- by then Bush will have pardoned everybody. Game, set, match.

Talk about Nazi’s

The coming blizzard of Presidential Pardons must pass before anyone can determine what can be done.

IOKIYAR, really.

Spit.

Letting “bygones be bygones” is total recipe for disaster. Holding both Bush and Cheney for crimes against the American People and the citizens of Iraq is not just a good idea, but a moral imperative as we emerge from the darkness of the past eight years.

As a nation we are better than what either of those two loathsome creatures represented us as… we need to prove it. Let them have their day at the bar of justice; it’s not too much to ask is it?

I hear they have five-star hotels near the Hague that the kewl KIdz can stay in while they cover the trial.

these crimes WILL be revisited on this country and they WILL be more severe

cheney and rumsfeld did this before under nixon, they did it before with bush

their minions behind them will look for the first oportunity and they will pounce

each and every time it will be worse, and each and every time it will be more dificult to recover

these criminals MUST be brought to the bar of justice

Ya’ll better start planning on Plan B cuz this shit is NEVER going to happen.

Kumbafuknya

“A government of laws, and not of men.”

~ John Adams

“. . . the world may know, that so far as we approve of monarchy, that in America THE LAW IS KING. For as in absolute governments the King is law, so in free countries the law OUGHT to be King; and there ought to be no other.”

~ Thomas Paine

Apparently not.

Oh yes, according to the wingnuts, Americans must ignore the last 8 years of George Bush and not blame him for one thing under President Obama starting next year!

What a bunch of assholes. Barack Obama is going to be handling the biggest shit pile passed between presidents in the history of our nation, and the wingers want us to be mum about it?

Tell that to all the people that ranted and raved about how Bush was going to suspend the election.

right on topic

Former DC appeals court judge suggests Bush detention policies amount to war crimes.»

and this

General who probed Abu Ghraib says Bush officials committed war crimes

Hear hear!

Seymour Hersh is saying that one January 20, 2009 comes and ends the Bush Regime’s tenure, people in government are going to start talking:

http://www.pruningshears.us/pr…..atter.html

We can only hope this is true!

I’m willing to let this go until January 21. We need to see some committees forming soon after, if not I think we all know what the only way to get justice against law breakers will be. Jefferson said it best, but lest I be rounded up and consigned to a gulag somewhere I will forgo citing his wisdom…for now.

WASHINGTON — When a Congressional committee subpoenaed Harry S. Truman in 1953, nearly a year after he left office, he made a startling claim: Even though he was no longer president, the Constitution still empowered him to block subpoenas.

“If the doctrine of separation of powers and the independence of the presidency is to have any validity at all, it must be equally applicable to a president after his term of office has expired,” Truman wrote to the committee.

Congress backed down, establishing a precedent suggesting that former presidents wield lingering powers to keep matters from their administration secret. Now, as Congressional Democrats prepare to move forward with investigations of the Bush administration, they wonder whether that claim may be invoked again.

“The Bush administration overstepped in its exertion of executive privilege, and may very well try to continue to shield information from the American people after it leaves office,” said Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, Democrat of Rhode Island, who sits on two committees, Judiciary and Intelligence, that are examining aspects of Mr. Bush’s policies.

OT – Ari has a post up at oxdown asking support (by signing a petition) for Jan Schakowsky as Obama’s replacement in the Senate when he steps down. Ari has some background info on her long history of progressive work. What I’d like to add is her record on the FISA fight:

Schakowsky earns a perfect score according my toughest standards: voted no on S.1927 last August, against the PAA extension in February, no on H.R.6304 in June and she cosponsored Holt’s far superior H.R.3782 which was blocked by house leadership last fall. (details in my June FISA diary – scroll down or search for her name)

only 4 other members of the House can say the same.

please go take a look at Ari’s post and see what you think of Jan Schakowsky.

The new Congress can change that can’t they? Maybe this is why the wingers are deathly afraid of a filibuster proof majority for the Democrats? Poor babies.

But, but, but Barack wants to reach across the aisle in the spirit of bipartisanship. Can’t we all just get along? The socieity is so ossified and the palace intrigues so toxic that it will just have to play itself out because the corporate media will be all over any attempt to bring poltical and war criminals to justice. The “people” by and large think that the election is enough. An Obama administration seems to be shaping up to be nothing more than a caretaker administration. The change that is required to remedy a sick and moribund poltical system would seem to be beyond most peoples comprehension.

It’s almost laughable. Cheney’s busy shredding. Congress sends him a letter telling him to cut that out. Next they’ll be threatening to count to ten…..8…9….9 1/2…9 3/4

If they didn’t change it then what would make them do it now?

I was in my rebellious twenties during the Iran Contra crises and remembered well the watergate hearings from my childhood. (back then it meant no kiddie programming during the whole summer!)

I was completely sickened by Iran contra, but it was as if the world didn’t have a clue about what St. Reagan and his motley crew were doing. The same players from watergate, to Iran contra, to bushco have been raping our country for most of the republican reign. Many people don’t know it because no one has ever really been held accountable. It’s time. We have to set boundaries regarding our constitution.

It’s our country.

yep, only the visionaries at FDL have the insight to know what is the exact thing to do.

Goes back way further than that. Can you say Tail Gunner Joe?

So, I’m hearing a ton of arguments that we should all just let bygones be bygones, because gosh darn, there are so much more important things to do than bringing Bush apparatchniks who smashed the constitution to bits, invaded another country based on lies (a war crime that Nazis were hung for) and who were criminally incompetent in their management of the economy, Katrina and everything else, to account.

Where did you here this not here! Have you been talking to the DLC?

This continued unwillingness to ever hold elites to account for their crimes and incompetence is a far bigger long term problem than the economy or Iraq or baby boomers, or medical problems or anything else. It is the core problem and as long as it is not solved, crisis after crisis will continue to occur.

the interests of the elite seem to have significantly diverged from the interests of the rest of us. so long as this is the case, i can’t see the elite ever holding each other to account on our behalf in any really significant way. that doesn’t mean i don’t think we should try – i do because failure is less likely and there is always a chance for us to make a difference at the margins.

more importantly, imo, is there some way to begin to create incentives so that our interests are a little less divergent? excluding, of course, the obvious one – total war.

Yeah and the response to the folks like Tail Gunner Joe keeps getting weaker and weaker every time.

From:

Have you no shame sir, no sense of decency?

to

What did the President know and when did he know it?

to

I’m just a simple Marine Corps colonel taking orders and charging up the hill

to

What? Me worry?

No it is their country, the people are merely pawns to be cajoled, manipulated and exploited. They have convinced the people it is a nation of laws and yet the people haven’t come to the realization that what they really mean is that the ruling elites are above the law. The myth is stronger than the reality because admitting the reality means one has to act.

Oh. You remember that?
Hi Raven. (hug)
One time when I was camping at the beach with my teen and pre-adult kids, we got to creating alternative verses for the K song.
I can’t share all them here with you. I might get in trouble.

If you stop looking in the rearview mirror you might catch a glimpse of a workable vision for the future.

George Jacob Jingleheimer Bush
His name is my name, too
And whenever we go out, we can hear the people shout
There goes George Jacob Jingleheimer Bush
da da da da da da da da

Sounds like a rugby party!

I remember that and a whole lot of other histrionics that are bandied about here.

right

The war is lost. The economy is in shambles human nature being fallible people other than us will look for scapegoats its human nature they need someone to blame.
I think the 30%ers will join us on this one. PanBushism is Dead. The old order passes the GOP needs to be reborn by rejecting the old.
Granted in time they will make the same mistakes of old (why humans don’t learn as a group is a question I can’t answer)
But for now the GOP does not get reborn until they reject the old.

“Do I have to stop the car?!”

and those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.

ya know, we are unhappy. it’s true but we don’t have much company in the country. there is no enthusiasm. people are numb.

Replace the elites but in time the new elites will fall into the same pattern societies/groups of humans do not seem to learn from history. This is a problem.

Steel Trap? Me too. Curse.
Never did Rugby, but camping with Mama does get to be fun.

You can’t tell someone they don’t know what the fuck they are talking about or you get moderated but you can say that?

don’t think so. bama didn’t win with 70%

Guess not, nice catch mod.

Ruggers are know for bawdy songs.

Not if you know everything.

why don’t you say what you really think? :}

I having F’ing Rugby Parties at the Beach!
Who you calling unenthusiastic?
(I’m in CA too. We might have to talk, next time I go camping.)

Bush using the classic BushCo official phrases is understandable. For Obama to adopt them does not make me happy in the least.

i can’t see that far ahead. when i read about social change movements, it never seems to be something that takes just a few years or even a couple of decades. all i know is that not to try is to concede defeat.

Ian, I was hoping you’d talk about the latest switch by Paulsen. Or did I miss a post?

Make sure to bring a lovely bottle of wine too, eh?

If only they would have smoked some medical weed. Their asses would be in jail by now.

you are the exception. not talkin bout ya. :)

You may not have caught the post that I responded to, it was way over the top and was deleted most rickey tic.

They are like zombies, the undead. They never go away. They crawl out of the grave and keep killing the living. They should be eradicated but they never seem to be. It must be because the Dems are afraid to destroy them. Thus, they destroy us and our country. We take it and don’t fight back or notice the stench of their corruption. They’ll do it to Obama and no Democrat will defend him from the obese drug addict and his millions of ghouls. I don’t want bi-partisanship, I want scorched earth! I want the conservatives cowering and whimpering in their hovels fearing the wrath of the Democrats. Nah! Who am I kidding. Never happen.

that’s why i don’t think replacing the elites is anything more than a stop gap measure. necessary, but not anything close to sufficient.

but as i said above, i don’t see a clear way forward

I’ll like to make the point that the Republicans don’t have fond memories of Nixon for the very reason that he was investigated. If he hadn’t been, he probably would have been looked up to like Reagan, who was an absolute disaster for this country.

I believe that either WE investigate and prosecute where necessary…….or the international community will do it for us. If the latter, will we be red-faced!

It’s like taking your antibiotics, if you don’t take them all, even if you feel better, the worst germs will become resistant and you will have to take stronger ones to get rid of them next time. And the next time, it may NOT WORK. This is what we have here; we cannot cauterize the wound with the infection still in it.

We keep getting the usual suspects in every Republican regime; Cheney, Rumsfeld, Negroponte, Wolfowitz, now Rove etc.

These people are criminals and traitors and we have to weed them out. Then, and only then, will the right wing moderates begin to see that, far from bringing Jesus back, these people have tried to destroy this country and our Democracy….and the very citizens of this once great nation.

This is the reason I stopped posting on some bigger blogs; every time I made this argument, my comments would get banned. And I noticed other agendas were being pushed also. So, I thought what’s up with THIS??? and exited.

No “kumbya” for this woman! I want to see the Republicam party held down and a stake driven thru it’s heart..once and for all.

and the state will whither away

Hey nuckles. Apparently, you have the steel trap too!
Good Man!

If that’s what America does, America will go down in flames. Guaranteed. This continued unwillingness to ever hold elites to account for their crimes and incompetence is a far bigger long term problem than the economy or Iraq or baby boomers, or medical problems or anything else. It is the core problem and as long as it is not solved, crisis after crisis will continue to occur.

Mankind as a group does not learn from the past they repeat it. However by trying to be more efficient with our energy use hybrid cars, green power etc we will give our society/economy more energy.
Avoiding bad leaders who waste our energy/economy in stupid wars ponzai schemes will help.
But I am not worried about Bush getting some form of punishment the need to punish during dark times is to strong.
The fact that he is guilty though makes it appropriate.

yep, i missed it. damn.

Failure to address the wrongs perpetuated by Bush and Co.sends the wrong message and makes the Dems to look like political expediency and saving their jobs is all that matters to them (like the vote authorizing military action in Iraq that took place just before an election). With the bully pulpit and the right spokespersons clearly expressing the message of the need to protect the Constitution and our system of government, the Dems could become the defenders of the rule of law and be hailed as Americans extraordinaire.

It’s not the kind of shit they need here

We’re not under an Obama Administration at the moment. We are still being spit on by the Bush Regime. Just a reminder…. ;-)

i like it. now, how to get the congress to pay attention?

What Barack Obama said

What I would want to do is to have my Justice Department and my Attorney General immediately review the information that’s already there and to find out are there inquiries that need to be pursued. I can’t prejudge that because we don’t have access to all the material right now. I think that you are right, if crimes have been committed, they should be investigated. You’re also right that I would not want my first term consumed by what was perceived on the part of Republicans as a partisan witch hunt because I think we’ve got too many problems we’ve got to solve.

So this is an area where I would want to exercise judgment — I would want to find out directly from my Attorney General — having pursued, having looked at what’s out there right now — are there possibilities of genuine crimes as opposed to really bad policies. And I think it’s important– one of the things we’ve got to figure out in our political culture generally is distinguishing betyween really dumb policies and policies that rise to the level of criminal activity. You know, I often get questions about impeachment at town hall meetings and I’ve said that is not something I think would be fruitful to pursue because I think that impeachment is something that should be reserved for exceptional circumstances. Now, if I found out that there were high officials who knowingly, consciously broke existing laws, engaged in coverups of those crimes with knowledge forefront, then I think a basic principle of our Constitution is nobody above the law — and I think that’s roughly how I would look at it.

This is the vampire argument. If we don’t put a stake in these people now, investigations, indictments, convictions, impeachments, they will be back.

Obama was in the Senate 4 years. Two of those he was running for President and not really there most of the time. It goes to show how powerful the club atmosphere is that after that brief exposure he is so willing to protect a loathsome backstabbing toad like Lieberman. And we have already heard from those close to him like Cass Sunstein how counter-productive accountability would be. It would be nice if Obama showed a little of that leadership for which he was elected here.

the Dems could become the defenders of the rule of law and be hailed as Americans extraordinaire.

yeah, but first they’d have to, you know, follow the law. it’s hard for me to see the dems supporting any kind of real accountability without some powerful incentive, since in most things they are dirty too (even if in on a much smaller scale than bushco).

there is no incentive for this admin to help at all. we in deep doodoo.

Yes. This is why I have argued since the illegal wiretapping was discovered (at least can’t remember when I started) that it really doesn’t serve to remove the Pres per se.

It is to put it on the record. THE RECORD. The record of history etc.

So each and every subsequent person contemplating doing these things will say to themselves is it worth going down in history as the second person impeached for this %$^&&** CRIME.

Not impeached for a blowjob that was not related to my job, but ____ (fill in the blank) crime.

It can’t be overlooked that we are talking about crimes. This just makes the FISA capitulation all the more egregious. If government crimes are only punished for the little people, the Wendy England’s of the world well we have come to a very dark place in our history.

If the status quo in this country is that only a sitting senator convicted of a felony gets any consequences at all for a crime, otherwise those crimes are overlooked and swept under the rug by each and every subsequent administration as well as each and every subsequent congress well my friends if that is true we have already lost our democracy.

How are we to ever change the way washington is run if each and every mechanism of power is structured to preserve that power alone? This is exactly what the framers were afraid of.

If we do not get some change and prosecutions out of the Democrats running all three branches of government we must discard the two party system. The two party system must die a swift death, because otherwise we are just switching out one devil for another once in a while.

There have to be consequences always and everywhere. The Bush admin got worse I think because it became clear very quickly that there would be no consequences.

We just have to develop a political ‘use by’ date, then we throw the bastids out and start all over again. You know organizational ‘psychology’ as it applies to ossification, redundancy and entrenched ‘interests’, its kind os a ‘legacy’ thing.

Its that human ‘inability’ to learn from history which has, historically, been the ‘problem’.

Ain’t no solution but to recognize that fact.

Sometime … in the …future.

Maybe.

;~D

All y’all know what kumbaya means, right

How’s things down there? Comin down for thanksgiving week.

stake in the heart. that IS the only way. trust me.

Good piece Ian..NOW we just need to make sure those “special rendition’ planes for Chimpy and his automatons planned flights to the Hague are fueled and running – ready to go..All these flights are ONE WAY.

The economy is getting worse but who said Obama has a choice?
We lost a war the economy is getting worse mob mentality will set in soon unless the economy turns around fast, in which case Obama will have the clout to punish Bush if he chooses.
Me I’m hoping that if Obama is strong he will do the right thing because its his choice.
If Obama is weak chances are Bush will get the blame the mob will be looking for someone to punish.

I would favor bygones-be-bygones as long as it applies to people who didn’t pay their mortagages, property taxes, income taxes, drug dealers, murderers, etc., before it applies to W. After all, fair is fair.

Permanent Revolution is a term within Marxist theory, which was first used by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels between 1845 and 1850, but has since become most closely associated with Leon Trotsky. The use of the term by different theorists is not identical. Marx used it to describe the strategy of a revolutionary class to continue to pursue its class interests independently and without compromise, despite overtures for political alliances, and despite the political dominance of opposing sections of society.

bye.

nope. but your question sent me to teh google.

amf?

I just flipped through MSNBC… Tweety and Pat are discussing Palin and the future of the Republican party as if nothing bad has ever happened, except to Sarah. Then on to CNN, where Wolf was reporting on Jim “Kool Aid” Jones.

I just want thorough investigations which inform American citizen and prosecutions where applicable. I don’t want feckless coverup and forgiveness commissions.

i can’t tell yet how it will shake out. but, i do know he is no dummy. why anyone would want that job is a mystery to me.

I think that you are right, if crimes have been committed, they should be investigated.

You can’t know if there are crimes if no investigation is done.

I often get questions about impeachment at town hall meetings and I’ve said that is not something I think would be fruitful to pursue because I think that impeachment is something that should be reserved for exceptional circumstances.

This too is highly wishy-washy. If the Bush Administration’s shredding of the Constitution and disaster on disaster doesn’t amount to exceptional circumstances what would? A BJ?

Replace the elites the DLC might work as a stop gap. Long Term you got me on that one.

I just love a woman with a keen mind.
*
CRC bye, as in see ya later, or was that a au revoir
(CRC)

you have the advantage. ???

Adios Mofo

Oops, I meant to ask was that your answer to the ?
Selise is on it, so I’m not spilling the beans.

Do you think we could make that work here somehow? What would be necessary?

maybe we can think of something here?

I’ve hardly seen Barack Obama on my television since the election, so where is everyone getting their information? Is it hearsay through hearsay? I am 100% behind Barack Obama knowing full well he has a huge shit pile to handle. Since Barack Obama didn’t march to Connecticut and stamp a “You’re Out Asshole!” on Lieberman’s forehead and then yanked his Committee away from him, this is the reason everyone is using to say Barack will be the worst president in the history of the nation?

Good gawd.

I’m telling you….if I was the new coach for the softball team and my team hated my guts before seeing how I could lead the team because they summed me up because of the car I pulled into the parking lot with, well, I would be bullshit.

George Bush is still the president and will be until January 20, 2009. George Bush approving by signing a GM/American Express bailout bill by the House & Senate will be on his head, okay? It doesn’t matter how much the House & Senate want the bailout, because if Georgie signs it, it will be his to own!

He won’t sign it. He already said he’ll veto an unemployment extension for next April if the bill comes to his desk. He’s basically giving the finger to the American people on the way out….and somehow this is all Barack Obama’s fault?

Jees. Barack needs to drive a different car apparently to convince this team he’s worthy of their presence!

just responding to demi. quess i don’t know what the word means.

bye anyway

We spent a week on Edisto Island this summer, exactly where that listing points to as the heart of Gullah country. Great place and wonderful folks.

it’s at my link @89.

There are some folks here who are believers, personally I think it’s silly.

We would need a thread or a late late night session for time. Raven might have something I’m drawing blanks right now. Unless you have an idea?

Good luck

Yea, the last time that particular approach was implemented it resulted in the Gulag’s and the Cultural Revolution. . .go for it!

I’ve noticed George Bush looking a little paler than normal, which tells me, he’s nervous with a Democratic White House, US Senate, and US House. If ANY of the republics want to redeem themselves of the last 8 years, they will vote to change the rules, so the Bush Regime can be brought up on war crime charges, other charges, without mumbo-jumbo legal interruption/interpretation by the criminals (Bush Regime) themselves.

trying to align interests by incentivizing long term thinking is the best i’ve been able to come up with so far.

Thanks Raven. *belly bump* ;-)

Good luck twice

That idea sure, the problem is not. I’m not sure how to get groups of people not to repeat but rather learn from the past.Birth death rebirth how to break the cycle?

there’s a lot of room between apathy and revolution. like citizen involvement?

Toyin with human nature there.

oops, I better get out of here, bye

Ari’s post on Jan Schakowsky is upstairs.

*progressive fist bump* ;-) I’m trying! Really I am!!!! I am my own cheerleader, as you can see, and it’s worked tremendously throughout my life too. LOL

1,825 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen Ian Welsh:

Thank you for the post…over 5 years ago I pledged to head every comment I made on FDL with the number of days since “mission accomplished” to draw attention back to the war in Iraq as thefocus of the multip[le evils and problems facing America and the world. If we follow the path of all of the crimes perpetrated by the oligarchy through executive government on our democracy and our people since 1963, we get to the war in Iraq. Let us remember that the greatest crime that can be perpetrated against a people in a democracy is the assiniation of the elected executive by the unelected aparachiks of that government…and let us further remember that since 1963 not only has there not been anyone who has gone to jail for those crimes against the people but those responsible have come back in person to assault and murder again and again.

So now we must take up the call of “never again…more democracy now!!!”

If we focus on getting out of Iraq, bringin those responsible to justice and restoring our institutions of government whose mission is to serve the people, we will find ourselves on the other side of the economic and political problems we now share with the rest of the world.

Let’s not get caught in the game of reducing expectations in the name of pragmnatism or prioritizing trade offs with evil…no more deals with the devil!

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, LET’S BRING THESE WARS HOME WHERE THEY BELONG!!

= Come by here, (lord).
(ps, I’m going to look up Edisto Island, bbl)

Dreamy.

“What would be necessary?”

Hmmm … maybe a committed citizenry dedicated to preserving and using the principles of a democracy rather than be consumed with seeking comfort and piles of easy (or not so ‘easy’) money.

Or a populace who would decide their own fate rather than trusting the brightest and the best (natch) to do their thinking for them.

Or how about an education sufficiently grounded in logical thinking as to alert the populace when they are being subject to false argument ( you know, being lied to – how long did it take before Bu$h was confronted about lying us into a war?)

Gee, a ‘fouth estate’ which actually did its job?

Ultimately, it shall be up to us … or … we can leave it to our ‘representatives’ and not worry about it.

What was it old Ben said? “If you can keep it.”

Athens that experiment in Democracy was not repeated on a national scale for over 2 thousand years. Pericles lied Athens into a war with Sparta as I recall the survivors never went back and nobody followed their example until us.
The Commies tried something new but constant revolution seems to need someone to attack or it turns on itself.
But maybe socialism?

Can’t think of a way to effect it so I’m not toying I am trying to think about it though drawing a blank though.

Not sure that would be enough its a start I’m going up.

Tell your friends and family, tell Congress, tell the new President, tell everyone you know that the United States must rejoin the International Criminal Court! The U.S. needs to clear the air, clear the books and clear our collective consciences. If our own “statesmen” don’t have the stomach for it, maybe the French will guide us back onto the moral footpath we as a nation have strayed from. If not the French, the Spanish surely know the way. Don’t believe it, ask Pinochet…

Citizen ThingsCome Undone:

I think we can safely say the the most “revolutionary” system of organizing people to live productive lives and advance their circumstances and those of their children is democracy. And the only cure for a sick democracy is more democracy!

Let’s not get caught in the game of reducing expectations in the name of pragmnatism or prioritizing trade offs with evil

that’s the job of politicians. not ours.

Would you go so far, selise, as to say that it’s ‘in’ their job ‘description’?

;~D

I’m late to this lovefest, but I cannot agree with Ian more. The attitudes of post WWI Germany comes to mind, in that they did not feel defeated just stymied for a time.

GOP is not getting the message that America is not all about their needs for despotism.

As Colbert said “we like our Germans depressed. Last time they were happy, they invaded Poland.”

no. but i’m trying to compromise with allies.

;~D

Citizen selise:

No more “compromising” with evil…none, not, never again!

yes sir.

I woke up too early a couple days ago and Richard Greene’s Clout on Air America, was going on about this “let’s just move on… too many other problems to solve… sure, we’d like to see justice, but it’s too hard”. I was then sick and getting sicker with every minute. I still feel sick at the idea of letting everything/everyone go unchallenged. Then I wonder if it isn’t some conspiracy of both parties to keep us in the same divisive place forever, doomed to repeat the 60’s, 80’s, 2000’s perpetually- in a civil/intellectual war, if you will. Or is it that, for Democrats to accomplish something since I can remember (except for Watergate when no one contested the illegality of the break in) requires such extreme effort, we haven’t the leaders with sufficient strength of will or conviction? If that is so, then we Dems may have won this election and the cred of the entire world but we are still slimed as the underclass in this country we have fought so hard to save from the intellectual barbarianism of the rightwing.
We MUST end the right from childishly stealing our ideas and observations about them and using these against us, hoping no one will figure it out because we all prefer news from our polarized sources. The whole country is in more trouble than just financial- that’s starting to look like a diversion to me like all the rest.
If I’m wrong, let me know. Thank you.

Yes! I think this is the only way. First, it’ll remove the partisan overtones of any convictions. And second, I’m afraid there may be a surprising number of complicit Congress members that may move to block the pursuit of the whole truth.

That’s in response to oldoilfieldhand at 127

“If that’s what America does, America will go down in flames. Guaranteed. This continued unwillingness to ever hold elites to account for their crimes and incompetence is a far bigger long term problem than the economy or Iraq or baby boomers, or medical problems or anything else. It is the core problem and as long as it is not solved, crisis after crisis will continue to occur.”

EXACTLY! Its pure unadulterated rot! America can do nothing without moral standing, without credibility, without standing for holding leaders accountable.

What on Earth is wrong with democrats that they would ever consider such a thing, that they still might not have learned the premier lessons of the last 35 years. Allowing the bush criminals to skate scott free would be an unspeakable act.

more than meets the eye?

What’s the rule of law worth if there is no law enforcement? Nothing. It’s meaningless.

I think you are spot on that the elite in our society do not want to be held responsible for their own idiocy and irresponsibility. Heck, they don’t even want to pay their taxes…they’d rather ship jobs overseas. They’d rather have a war to destroy any government services at home that benefit poor and moderately incomed people. But, take away a tax break they have and they send a billion dollars to…which ever party happens to be in charge at the time. It’s time that this stopped and that criminals are kept away from the coffers, the military deployments, and the button.

Ford republican pardoned nixon. Would Obama do that?????

oldoilfieldhand November 13th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
127
Tell your friends and family, tell Congress, tell the new President, tell everyone you know that the United States must rejoin the International Criminal Court!

Just before the Iraqi war, Bush made a big deal about not joining the world court. At the time I was nieve and couldn’t figure out why. It seemed like a thing a responsible country like ours would embrace. When he started saber rattling, I understood. Spit.

I’d keep any sort of investigation away from Congress. They would fuck it up royal. Turn it over to the Justice Dep’t., and an international tribunal.

It is my assumption that there are many, many crimes of this President’s Adm. From the Justice Dept writing torture approval memos to using the Federal Prosecutors for election muscle (mofia style).

One could spend a very long amount of time and money and efort in investigating and prosecuting them all.

Can anyone use that as an excuse to not prosecute crimes?

How about the big fish limit? Any fish smaller than a certain size is tossed back, (well used to testify in prosecutors favor).

For instance,
*The man who ordered the torture memo and the one who wrote it.

*What Fed prosecutors did to keep their jobs while the others were fired for not abusing their authority in influenceing elections.

*Who carries out the initial illegal wiretapping of Americans?

*Scooter Libby and the cloud that hangs over Vice Pres. Cheney.

*The false inormation to go to war crowd.

*The war profiteers and those that propagated their contracts.

Just a few for example.

When you live in a hierarchical society one of the blessings is that one in the lower tier can blame leaders for what went wrong. Are the pilots who dropped bombs war criminals? How about the rest of us who paid our taxes and did nothing? What would we have done had Bush declared martial law? I suspect he thought about it and we can only be relieved he’s leaving quietly. If we are honest the guilt goes much further than Bush and Co. We forgive ourselves by saying we post to liberal blogs and deplore the way things are. What is to stop it from happening again?

Amen Ian. Well said.

Since Obama wants to reassure everyone by including Republicans, how about Patrick Fitzgerald for Attorney General?