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	<title>Comments on: Catholic Bishops, Obama, and Abortion</title>
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	<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/13/catholic-bishops-obama-and-abortion/</link>
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		<title>By: Anais</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/13/catholic-bishops-obama-and-abortion/#comment-1724739</link>
		<dc:creator>Anais</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 13:16:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/13/catholic-bishops-obama-and-abortion/#comment-1724739</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The National Council of Bishops has looked at the issue again and this  year said Catholics should vote based on their own consciences and candidates’ platforms from womb to tomb. It’s the most reasonable stance they have ever had. Individual conservative priests and bishops may say something else; they are out of line with the national group. I think Catholics this year finally recognized that the GOP has USED abortion as an issue to attract anti-abortion voters but has really done NOTHING to reduce abortions like provide postnatal care of mother and child. Additionally, Bush has waged wars that have killed already-born people as well as favored capital punishment. Both of these policies are against Catholic doctrine. Obama’s platform has programs that should reduce the need for abortions. While Catholic doctrine says life begins at conception, not all religions ascribe to this doctrine and many people have no religion. This is right to an abortion is a secular law that is the law of the land. People who are elected swear to uphold the law of the land. I was glad to see Wuerl say he would not deny Biden Holy Communion. It is just a shame that the Catholic Church administration is completely celibate male, making it increasingly out of touch with the problems of real life.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The National Council of Bishops has looked at the issue again and this  year said Catholics should vote based on their own consciences and candidates’ platforms from womb to tomb. It’s the most reasonable stance they have ever had. Individual conservative priests and bishops may say something else; they are out of line with the national group. I think Catholics this year finally recognized that the GOP has USED abortion as an issue to attract anti-abortion voters but has really done NOTHING to reduce abortions like provide postnatal care of mother and child. Additionally, Bush has waged wars that have killed already-born people as well as favored capital punishment. Both of these policies are against Catholic doctrine. Obama’s platform has programs that should reduce the need for abortions. While Catholic doctrine says life begins at conception, not all religions ascribe to this doctrine and many people have no religion. This is right to an abortion is a secular law that is the law of the land. People who are elected swear to uphold the law of the land. I was glad to see Wuerl say he would not deny Biden Holy Communion. It is just a shame that the Catholic Church administration is completely celibate male, making it increasingly out of touch with the problems of real life.</p>
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		<title>By: stirstikhagios</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/13/catholic-bishops-obama-and-abortion/#comment-1724680</link>
		<dc:creator>stirstikhagios</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 09:22:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/13/catholic-bishops-obama-and-abortion/#comment-1724680</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;As far as I’m concerned the Catholic Church has no moral authority left. Keeping their dirty little secrets for years and hiding their sick priests. Sorry, I just don’t like child abuse.
&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And that’s part of where Catholicism went wrong and even most Christian churches. They set themselves up through their doctrine of works-righteousness as the epitomy and example of holiness and virtue instead of pointing you to the One who is: Jesus. The word of God is the authority. And if God has granted any authority to those He’s called to minister, that authority is not removed by the fact that they are found to still be sinners–sinners saved by grace with a stewardship. The Apostle Paul called himself, “the chiefest of sinners”. Those gifted by God have the responsibility to communicate it. You have the right to reject it just as the most of the people did when Jesus walked the earth. God has granted you the freedom to reject Him. I completely understand why most are livid with church’s apparent hypocrisy. That fact aside, it still doesn’t solve the individual’s dilema of a fuller relationship with his or her Savior and God and learning more about Him, should they so wish.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>As far as I’m concerned the Catholic Church has no moral authority left. Keeping their dirty little secrets for years and hiding their sick priests. Sorry, I just don’t like child abuse.
</p>
</blockquote>
<p>And that’s part of where Catholicism went wrong and even most Christian churches. They set themselves up through their doctrine of works-righteousness as the epitomy and example of holiness and virtue instead of pointing you to the One who is: Jesus. The word of God is the authority. And if God has granted any authority to those He’s called to minister, that authority is not removed by the fact that they are found to still be sinners–sinners saved by grace with a stewardship. The Apostle Paul called himself, “the chiefest of sinners”. Those gifted by God have the responsibility to communicate it. You have the right to reject it just as the most of the people did when Jesus walked the earth. God has granted you the freedom to reject Him. I completely understand why most are livid with church’s apparent hypocrisy. That fact aside, it still doesn’t solve the individual’s dilema of a fuller relationship with his or her Savior and God and learning more about Him, should they so wish.</p>
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		<title>By: stirstikhagios</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/13/catholic-bishops-obama-and-abortion/#comment-1724674</link>
		<dc:creator>stirstikhagios</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 08:53:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/13/catholic-bishops-obama-and-abortion/#comment-1724674</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Father Roy Bourgeois, a Catholic priest, torture survivor, Vietnam veteran, Purple Heart recipient, and SOA Watch founder is facing excommunication by the Vatican for his beliefs on the ordination of women.
&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Yep. His personal past as a torture survivor, vet and Purple Heart recipient etc., is immaterial to the issue of Women’s Ordination. It has nothing to do with his personal life, characture or activites and everything to do with what God’s word has to say about it.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Father Roy Bourgeois, a Catholic priest, torture survivor, Vietnam veteran, Purple Heart recipient, and SOA Watch founder is facing excommunication by the Vatican for his beliefs on the ordination of women.
</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Yep. His personal past as a torture survivor, vet and Purple Heart recipient etc., is immaterial to the issue of Women’s Ordination. It has nothing to do with his personal life, characture or activites and everything to do with what God’s word has to say about it.</p>
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		<title>By: stirstikhagios</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/13/catholic-bishops-obama-and-abortion/#comment-1724655</link>
		<dc:creator>stirstikhagios</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 08:14:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/13/catholic-bishops-obama-and-abortion/#comment-1724655</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Hello Peterr. I am a referal from Suzanne. I’ll admit right off, I’m not “progressive”, but I found this topic of interest. I am in a precarious situation on more than one front when discussing this issue. I tend to irritate both sides, those calling themselves Christian/Catholic and those who are secular/agnostic/pagan, etc.&lt;br /&gt;
On the one hand, those who are secular have no clue of the world of the Catholic religion. I’ll admit my knowledge is slim since I am not Catholic and have done only some reading. But, I do know that while some would love to view “The One True Church” as a singular peaceful unity, it has been quite far from that for some time and has been battling its own internal war for years now. The battle is between the Pope and the Black Pope. This isn’t meant to be racist. It is a legitimate term. What you are seeing in Mr. Allen’s tone is the apostate Jesuit response to the Pope’s determination to maintain what he states is the biblical truth of the issue. In fact, these same Jesuits are the reason Central America is as decayed as it is today. I do agree with the Pope’s position on the issue, but for a different reason, and differ with them on contraception among many other things too numerous to go into detail here. My comment to the secular person would be that those of faith whether in the pulpit or out of it have not, by the mere fact of their being religious, automatically forfeitted their Constitutional Rights or ability to be an influence in public policy. I do disagree with how they are attempting to influence it. To me it is a matter of faith to be adhered to for those claiming to actually have any. On the other hand, it takes no religion at all to subscribe to the idea of personal responsibility. I agree with a woman’s FREEDOM to choose to have an abortion. I also agree with her and the sperm donor’s FREEDOM to be 100% responsible for all financial costs in obtaining it. They could have gotten their condoms for free–so too bad so sad. My reply to the “Cafeteria”, “Card Carrying” lay Catholic or apostate Jesuit who whines: If you don’t like it, leave and have the guts to start your own church and stop calling yourself Catholic. God’s kingdom is not and will not be democratic ever. And God doesn’t care about they feel about that either. In fact, that’s my comment to Christians who complain about the church they’re in as well. While some get carried away or even are outright wrong in how they conduct themselves on the abortion issue (yes I know this is a grave understatement), the biblical truth remains that abortion does not please God. The Catholics or Christians will say it is because it’s murder. I don’t waste my time there. I am convinced it is because it is a faithless action. I’ve spoken to a number of young women who were unwantedly pregnant and have heard their reasonings. There is only one word to describe their disposition: FEAR–fight or flight. Do I blame them? NO. The church as a whole has failed for atleast a generation in establishing and cultivating faith and what the faith really is. So, they shouldn’t be surprised when the society they are commissioned to go to suffers under the prince of the power of the air, their flesh and the world.&lt;br /&gt;
I would add, for the woman who has had an abortion and her conscience is sorely afflicted by this: While it is a sin and it does displease God, it is not the unpardonable sin. There is no reason to think there is no hope for you with God and that you can not be forgiven. A word of caution though. Don’t take God’s grace for granted. And for the hardcore right-wingers that may come across this thinking these women will go to hell for their action–don’t cheapen the blood of the Savior!&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Peterr. I am a referal from Suzanne. I’ll admit right off, I’m not “progressive”, but I found this topic of interest. I am in a precarious situation on more than one front when discussing this issue. I tend to irritate both sides, those calling themselves Christian/Catholic and those who are secular/agnostic/pagan, etc.<br />
On the one hand, those who are secular have no clue of the world of the Catholic religion. I’ll admit my knowledge is slim since I am not Catholic and have done only some reading. But, I do know that while some would love to view “The One True Church” as a singular peaceful unity, it has been quite far from that for some time and has been battling its own internal war for years now. The battle is between the Pope and the Black Pope. This isn’t meant to be racist. It is a legitimate term. What you are seeing in Mr. Allen’s tone is the apostate Jesuit response to the Pope’s determination to maintain what he states is the biblical truth of the issue. In fact, these same Jesuits are the reason Central America is as decayed as it is today. I do agree with the Pope’s position on the issue, but for a different reason, and differ with them on contraception among many other things too numerous to go into detail here. My comment to the secular person would be that those of faith whether in the pulpit or out of it have not, by the mere fact of their being religious, automatically forfeitted their Constitutional Rights or ability to be an influence in public policy. I do disagree with how they are attempting to influence it. To me it is a matter of faith to be adhered to for those claiming to actually have any. On the other hand, it takes no religion at all to subscribe to the idea of personal responsibility. I agree with a woman’s FREEDOM to choose to have an abortion. I also agree with her and the sperm donor’s FREEDOM to be 100% responsible for all financial costs in obtaining it. They could have gotten their condoms for free–so too bad so sad. My reply to the “Cafeteria”, “Card Carrying” lay Catholic or apostate Jesuit who whines: If you don’t like it, leave and have the guts to start your own church and stop calling yourself Catholic. God’s kingdom is not and will not be democratic ever. And God doesn’t care about they feel about that either. In fact, that’s my comment to Christians who complain about the church they’re in as well. While some get carried away or even are outright wrong in how they conduct themselves on the abortion issue (yes I know this is a grave understatement), the biblical truth remains that abortion does not please God. The Catholics or Christians will say it is because it’s murder. I don’t waste my time there. I am convinced it is because it is a faithless action. I’ve spoken to a number of young women who were unwantedly pregnant and have heard their reasonings. There is only one word to describe their disposition: FEAR–fight or flight. Do I blame them? NO. The church as a whole has failed for atleast a generation in establishing and cultivating faith and what the faith really is. So, they shouldn’t be surprised when the society they are commissioned to go to suffers under the prince of the power of the air, their flesh and the world.<br />
I would add, for the woman who has had an abortion and her conscience is sorely afflicted by this: While it is a sin and it does displease God, it is not the unpardonable sin. There is no reason to think there is no hope for you with God and that you can not be forgiven. A word of caution though. Don’t take God’s grace for granted. And for the hardcore right-wingers that may come across this thinking these women will go to hell for their action–don’t cheapen the blood of the Savior!</p>
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		<title>By: dosido</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/13/catholic-bishops-obama-and-abortion/#comment-1724483</link>
		<dc:creator>dosido</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 05:29:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/13/catholic-bishops-obama-and-abortion/#comment-1724483</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Sorry I haven’t read all the comments, but I wonder why these prolifers never bring any problem with unjust war?  McCain isn’t exactly honoring the sanctity of life or of marriage.  I guess all voters should head to confession for voting for anyone?  (kind of my response to the article I linked to above…sorry…rambling…)&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry I haven’t read all the comments, but I wonder why these prolifers never bring any problem with unjust war?  McCain isn’t exactly honoring the sanctity of life or of marriage.  I guess all voters should head to confession for voting for anyone?  (kind of my response to the article I linked to above…sorry…rambling…)</p>
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		<title>By: dosido</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/13/catholic-bishops-obama-and-abortion/#comment-1724482</link>
		<dc:creator>dosido</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 05:27:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/13/catholic-bishops-obama-and-abortion/#comment-1724482</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Excellent post, Peterr.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Something else to add: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27705755/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;SC Bishop says No communion for Obama voters.&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent post, Peterr.</p>
<p>Something else to add: <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27705755/" rel="nofollow">SC Bishop says No communion for Obama voters.</a></p>
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		<title>By: dmac</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/13/catholic-bishops-obama-and-abortion/#comment-1724457</link>
		<dc:creator>dmac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 04:46:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/13/catholic-bishops-obama-and-abortion/#comment-1724457</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;thai porn, check his passport, the man was discombobulated.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thai porn, check his passport, the man was discombobulated.</p>
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		<title>By: dmac</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/13/catholic-bishops-obama-and-abortion/#comment-1724453</link>
		<dc:creator>dmac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 04:44:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/13/catholic-bishops-obama-and-abortion/#comment-1724453</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Peterr–Cardinal George was on tv earlier. From the introduction, I thought the Archbishop from San Franciso was going to be on  about Prop 8. Boom different guy. He immediately directed the conversation to the ‘pro-lifers’ audience. Fox.I’ll see if I can find the clip. So many tabs open, computer slow.Will post it if i find it. Was pertinent to future arguments, he IS the new front man. Completel;y clear to me that he had was a player. but he wasn’t supposed to be. Probably because the Archbishop was photographed giving communion to ‘drag queens’. No joke.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://americansfortruth.com/news/more-san-francisco-nuttiness-catholic-archbishop-gives-communion-to-sisters-of-perpetual-indulgence.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://americansfortruth.com/n.....gence.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Been gone from the lake all day, haven’t read comments yet.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I hope you see this comment, the tide is turning, it is soooo important that we keep the dialogue specific to social choices, keep it from being amalgamated back into ‘denied rights’ which they turn into race and abortion. “Shiny thong”-lhp.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I’m posting a diary about Bill Donahue of The Catholic League tomorrow.It’s taken three days to write. He’sHe’s the linch pin, no, he’s the Rasputin, and I’m layin’ his ass out tomorrow in an Oxdown Diary.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;here’s the o’reilly link—advice to pups., copy and open into a new link.&lt;br /&gt;
They make it hard to identify footage, but once you have selected a video you are ‘in’….then you get a new list and your own menu. titles are generic on purpose to keep you from finding specific things. dumb down your brain and select the most generic description, go by the ‘pictures’ and you’ll find it. they remove easy access by the next night’s show and you cannot copy a permanent link to a clip.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.foxnews.com/oreilly/index.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.foxnews.com/oreilly/index.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;omg, just now, his last segment is about slave porn. go bill , you sick fuck.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peterr–Cardinal George was on tv earlier. From the introduction, I thought the Archbishop from San Franciso was going to be on  about Prop 8. Boom different guy. He immediately directed the conversation to the ‘pro-lifers’ audience. Fox.I’ll see if I can find the clip. So many tabs open, computer slow.Will post it if i find it. Was pertinent to future arguments, he IS the new front man. Completel;y clear to me that he had was a player. but he wasn’t supposed to be. Probably because the Archbishop was photographed giving communion to ‘drag queens’. No joke.<br /><a href="http://americansfortruth.com/news/more-san-francisco-nuttiness-catholic-archbishop-gives-communion-to-sisters-of-perpetual-indulgence.html" rel="nofollow">http://americansfortruth.com/n&#8230;..gence.html</a></p>
<p>Been gone from the lake all day, haven’t read comments yet.</p>
<p>I hope you see this comment, the tide is turning, it is soooo important that we keep the dialogue specific to social choices, keep it from being amalgamated back into ‘denied rights’ which they turn into race and abortion. “Shiny thong”-lhp.</p>
<p>I’m posting a diary about Bill Donahue of The Catholic League tomorrow.It’s taken three days to write. He’sHe’s the linch pin, no, he’s the Rasputin, and I’m layin’ his ass out tomorrow in an Oxdown Diary.</p>
<p>here’s the o’reilly link—advice to pups., copy and open into a new link.<br />
They make it hard to identify footage, but once you have selected a video you are ‘in’….then you get a new list and your own menu. titles are generic on purpose to keep you from finding specific things. dumb down your brain and select the most generic description, go by the ‘pictures’ and you’ll find it. they remove easy access by the next night’s show and you cannot copy a permanent link to a clip.<br /><a href="http://www.foxnews.com/oreilly/index.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.foxnews.com/oreilly/index.html</a></p>
<p>omg, just now, his last segment is about slave porn. go bill , you sick fuck.</p>
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		<title>By: mikewstagg</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/13/catholic-bishops-obama-and-abortion/#comment-1724412</link>
		<dc:creator>mikewstagg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 04:07:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/13/catholic-bishops-obama-and-abortion/#comment-1724412</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The problem for the Bishops is that they have already spoken on the issue via their 2007 document, “Faithful Citizenship: A Catholic Call to Political Responsibility.” In that document, these same bishops made clear that Catholics could not be single issue voters, that their faith demanded more of them. In fact, they stated that Catholics could vote for candidates who support a woman’s right to choose, so long as that was not the only reason for voting for that candidate.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;“Faithful Citizenship” put abortion as a major, but not sole, issue in a continuum of social justice and respect for life that included issues like unprovoked war, the death penalty, racism, poverty and other issues.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;This document was written outside the intense political period and represents a surprisingly lucid view of the how Catholics have already been viewing the abortion issue for decades.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The current statements of individual bishops and other church leaders does not rescind this document, which provides a framework for Democrats to approach Catholic voters. Democrats would do well to read this document so that they can take advantage of the opening it creates.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem for the Bishops is that they have already spoken on the issue via their 2007 document, “Faithful Citizenship: A Catholic Call to Political Responsibility.” In that document, these same bishops made clear that Catholics could not be single issue voters, that their faith demanded more of them. In fact, they stated that Catholics could vote for candidates who support a woman’s right to choose, so long as that was not the only reason for voting for that candidate.</p>
<p>“Faithful Citizenship” put abortion as a major, but not sole, issue in a continuum of social justice and respect for life that included issues like unprovoked war, the death penalty, racism, poverty and other issues.</p>
<p>This document was written outside the intense political period and represents a surprisingly lucid view of the how Catholics have already been viewing the abortion issue for decades.</p>
<p>The current statements of individual bishops and other church leaders does not rescind this document, which provides a framework for Democrats to approach Catholic voters. Democrats would do well to read this document so that they can take advantage of the opening it creates.</p>
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		<title>By: Peterr</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/13/catholic-bishops-obama-and-abortion/#comment-1724403</link>
		<dc:creator>Peterr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 03:42:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/13/catholic-bishops-obama-and-abortion/#comment-1724403</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;No one could have anticipated . . .&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No one could have anticipated . . .</p>
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