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	<title>Comments on: Healthcare on the Car Insurance Model: Senator Baucus&#8217;s Plan</title>
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	<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/12/healthcare-on-the-car-insurance-model-senator-baucuss-plan/</link>
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		<title>By: PDCT</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/12/healthcare-on-the-car-insurance-model-senator-baucuss-plan/#comment-1723386</link>
		<dc:creator>PDCT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 14:03:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/12/healthcare-on-the-car-insurance-model-senator-baucuss-plan/#comment-1723386</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;A lot of belly-aching from the single-payer camp.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Response to this analysis, please…&lt;br /&gt;
- Obama is locked into his plan or at most a Baucus-like plan.&lt;br /&gt;
- But, if Congress miraculously presented him with a single-payer bill, he wouldn’t veto it.&lt;br /&gt;
- Congress will not pass single-payer unless put under tremendous pressure.&lt;br /&gt;
- Sources of pressure: large and/or powerful corporations finally sick of the whole mess; Obama-activists who could hit the streets again and sell neighbors, co-workers, relatives on single-payer, tipping enough congress members; any others?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;So …&lt;br /&gt;
Where is the door-to-door for single-payer?&lt;br /&gt;
Who is organizing the large-corporations-for-single-payer lobby?&lt;br /&gt;
Why is progressive opinion so fragmented on this and is there any way to converge progressive opinion on the one or two most viable single-payer scenarios (Medicare for all or whatever else). Where (one place, please) would that convergence be carried out? Would you sign up to whatever that single-payer convergence is (as you probably signed up for Obama, despite Hillaryish or Naderish or other misgivings).&lt;br /&gt;
Or is belly-aching too much fun?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A lot of belly-aching from the single-payer camp.</p>
<p>Response to this analysis, please…<br />
- Obama is locked into his plan or at most a Baucus-like plan.<br />
- But, if Congress miraculously presented him with a single-payer bill, he wouldn’t veto it.<br />
- Congress will not pass single-payer unless put under tremendous pressure.<br />
- Sources of pressure: large and/or powerful corporations finally sick of the whole mess; Obama-activists who could hit the streets again and sell neighbors, co-workers, relatives on single-payer, tipping enough congress members; any others?</p>
<p>So …<br />
Where is the door-to-door for single-payer?<br />
Who is organizing the large-corporations-for-single-payer lobby?<br />
Why is progressive opinion so fragmented on this and is there any way to converge progressive opinion on the one or two most viable single-payer scenarios (Medicare for all or whatever else). Where (one place, please) would that convergence be carried out? Would you sign up to whatever that single-payer convergence is (as you probably signed up for Obama, despite Hillaryish or Naderish or other misgivings).<br />
Or is belly-aching too much fun?</p>
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		<title>By: Miro</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/12/healthcare-on-the-car-insurance-model-senator-baucuss-plan/#comment-1723086</link>
		<dc:creator>Miro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 03:20:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/12/healthcare-on-the-car-insurance-model-senator-baucuss-plan/#comment-1723086</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;by the time I’d slogged through parts of Baucus proposal, I was so sick of reading about marketplace incentives (money, money money!) that were supposed to improve the quality of my Doctor-Patient, Clinic-patient relationship, that I was about to throw-up!&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And it seemed like the only fixes for market distortions that Baucus is proposing are more market distortions.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I think our whole system ought to be nationalized, and start over.  If they want to semi-privatize later, we can look at that; but for now, I’m so sick and tired of the business values distorting my healthcare relationships that I just…. want …… it ….. allllll….. gone!&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;But what would all those poor dears do with such a shock???&lt;br /&gt;
All those dear little doctors who’ve built their lives getting to the clinic each day motivated only by profit and money??&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I had hoped that since I’m over 55 I could escape this mess and qualify&lt;br /&gt;
for the lowering the age for qualifying for medicare.  But even here, he&lt;br /&gt;
describes it as “buy-in”.  Buy-In!&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>by the time I’d slogged through parts of Baucus proposal, I was so sick of reading about marketplace incentives (money, money money!) that were supposed to improve the quality of my Doctor-Patient, Clinic-patient relationship, that I was about to throw-up!</p>
<p>And it seemed like the only fixes for market distortions that Baucus is proposing are more market distortions.</p>
<p>I think our whole system ought to be nationalized, and start over.  If they want to semi-privatize later, we can look at that; but for now, I’m so sick and tired of the business values distorting my healthcare relationships that I just…. want …… it ….. allllll….. gone!</p>
<p>But what would all those poor dears do with such a shock???<br />
All those dear little doctors who’ve built their lives getting to the clinic each day motivated only by profit and money??</p>
<p>I had hoped that since I’m over 55 I could escape this mess and qualify<br />
for the lowering the age for qualifying for medicare.  But even here, he<br />
describes it as “buy-in”.  Buy-In!</p>
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		<title>By: selise</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/12/healthcare-on-the-car-insurance-model-senator-baucuss-plan/#comment-1723002</link>
		<dc:creator>selise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 01:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/12/healthcare-on-the-car-insurance-model-senator-baucuss-plan/#comment-1723002</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;even if one has a suitable model, small changes in boundary conditions result in wildly different outcomes.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;hell, i don’t have a clue - let alone a model, suitable or not.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>even if one has a suitable model, small changes in boundary conditions result in wildly different outcomes.</p>
<p>hell, i don’t have a clue &#8211; let alone a model, suitable or not.</p>
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		<title>By: pluege</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/12/healthcare-on-the-car-insurance-model-senator-baucuss-plan/#comment-1722982</link>
		<dc:creator>pluege</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 01:07:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/12/healthcare-on-the-car-insurance-model-senator-baucuss-plan/#comment-1722982</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;the new American Model for addressing all issues including healthcare:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;in order of priority:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;1) enrich the already rich by taking from the not-rich&lt;br /&gt;
2) dissemble the problem so no one really knows what the problem is, can properly fashion a solution, or realize the chosen solution is to enrich the already rich&lt;br /&gt;
3) make the actual problem worse by doing (1) and (2)&lt;br /&gt;
4) identify and solve a real problem - not so much&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Next&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the new American Model for addressing all issues including healthcare:</p>
<p>in order of priority:</p>
<p>1) enrich the already rich by taking from the not-rich<br />
2) dissemble the problem so no one really knows what the problem is, can properly fashion a solution, or realize the chosen solution is to enrich the already rich<br />
3) make the actual problem worse by doing (1) and (2)<br />
4) identify and solve a real problem &#8211; not so much</p>
<p>Next</p>
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		<title>By: Synoia</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/12/healthcare-on-the-car-insurance-model-senator-baucuss-plan/#comment-1722981</link>
		<dc:creator>Synoia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 01:05:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/12/healthcare-on-the-car-insurance-model-senator-baucuss-plan/#comment-1722981</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Did that on a Tramp stemer in the North sea, between Felixstowe &amp; Rotterdam.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Impossible to stay clean. The boat was filthy.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did that on a Tramp stemer in the North sea, between Felixstowe &amp; Rotterdam.</p>
<p>Impossible to stay clean. The boat was filthy.</p>
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		<title>By: Synoia</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/12/healthcare-on-the-car-insurance-model-senator-baucuss-plan/#comment-1722980</link>
		<dc:creator>Synoia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 01:03:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/12/healthcare-on-the-car-insurance-model-senator-baucuss-plan/#comment-1722980</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Classic definition of a chaotic system. There is no predictable outcome.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Classic definition of a chaotic system. There is no predictable outcome.</p>
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		<title>By: SouthernDragon</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/12/healthcare-on-the-car-insurance-model-senator-baucuss-plan/#comment-1722979</link>
		<dc:creator>SouthernDragon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 01:03:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/12/healthcare-on-the-car-insurance-model-senator-baucuss-plan/#comment-1722979</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Yeah.  Turned some old beautiful cargo ships and tankers into rusting hulks plyin’ the seas.  Always wanted to crew on a tramp steamer in the southern Pacific area.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah.  Turned some old beautiful cargo ships and tankers into rusting hulks plyin’ the seas.  Always wanted to crew on a tramp steamer in the southern Pacific area.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugh</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/12/healthcare-on-the-car-insurance-model-senator-baucuss-plan/#comment-1722978</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 00:54:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/12/healthcare-on-the-car-insurance-model-senator-baucuss-plan/#comment-1722978</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Hank Greenberg used to be CEO at AIG but had a scandal a couple of years ago.  Sullivan came in but was replaced by shareholders in June by Robert Willumstad who was fired in September.  The guy Paulson chose to run AIG is Eward Liddy.  Here is a list of his corporate boardships and other connections, and yes he has a Goldman Sach tie-in:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;2008-Present&lt;br /&gt;
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer&lt;br /&gt;
American International Group, Inc.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;2007-Present&lt;br /&gt;
Former Director, Member of Governance, Organization &amp; Nominating Committee and Member of Compensation Committee&lt;br /&gt;
Boeing Co.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;2003-Present&lt;br /&gt;
Former Director, Chairman of Audit Committee, Member of Corporate Governance &amp; Nominating Committee and Member of Compensation Committee&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Goldman Sachs Group Inc.&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;2000-Present&lt;br /&gt;
Director, Chairman of Audit Committee and Member of Nominating &amp; Governance Committee&lt;br /&gt;
3M Co.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;2000-Present&lt;br /&gt;
Director&lt;br /&gt;
3M Canada Company&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;1999-Present&lt;br /&gt;
Former Chief Executive Officer and Chairman&lt;br /&gt;
Allstate Corp.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://investing.businessweek.com/businessweek/research/stocks/people/person.asp?personId=198435&amp;capId=250388&amp;previousCapId=250388&amp;previousTitle=American%20International%20Group%2C%20Inc.&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://investing.businessweek......%2C%20Inc.&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hank Greenberg used to be CEO at AIG but had a scandal a couple of years ago.  Sullivan came in but was replaced by shareholders in June by Robert Willumstad who was fired in September.  The guy Paulson chose to run AIG is Eward Liddy.  Here is a list of his corporate boardships and other connections, and yes he has a Goldman Sach tie-in:</p>
<p>2008-Present<br />
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer<br />
American International Group, Inc.</p>
<p>2007-Present<br />
Former Director, Member of Governance, Organization &amp; Nominating Committee and Member of Compensation Committee<br />
Boeing Co.</p>
<p>2003-Present<br />
Former Director, Chairman of Audit Committee, Member of Corporate Governance &amp; Nominating Committee and Member of Compensation Committee<br /><strong>Goldman Sachs Group Inc.</strong></p>
<p>2000-Present<br />
Director, Chairman of Audit Committee and Member of Nominating &amp; Governance Committee<br />
3M Co.</p>
<p>2000-Present<br />
Director<br />
3M Canada Company</p>
<p>1999-Present<br />
Former Chief Executive Officer and Chairman<br />
Allstate Corp.</p>
<p><a href="http://investing.businessweek.com/businessweek/research/stocks/people/person.asp?personId=198435&amp;capId=250388&amp;previousCapId=250388&amp;previousTitle=American%20International%20Group%2C%20Inc." rel="nofollow">http://investing.businessweek&#8230;&#8230;%2C%20Inc.</a></p>
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		<title>By: Hmmm</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/12/healthcare-on-the-car-insurance-model-senator-baucuss-plan/#comment-1722977</link>
		<dc:creator>Hmmm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 00:51:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/12/healthcare-on-the-car-insurance-model-senator-baucuss-plan/#comment-1722977</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;And of course “…of Liberian registry”.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And of course “…of Liberian registry”.</p>
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		<title>By: SouthernDragon</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/12/healthcare-on-the-car-insurance-model-senator-baucuss-plan/#comment-1722976</link>
		<dc:creator>SouthernDragon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 00:45:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/12/healthcare-on-the-car-insurance-model-senator-baucuss-plan/#comment-1722976</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;German private funds dominate the worldwide container ship market with ownership of some 3,000+ ships. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I had to do a double take on that one.  There was a time when the US Merchant Marine ruled the seas.  Shipping companies then started registering their ships in other countries, usually dictator-led Latin American, to cut the costs of crews and maintenance.  Then came the dominance of container ships.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>German private funds dominate the worldwide container ship market with ownership of some 3,000+ ships. </p>
</blockquote>
<p>I had to do a double take on that one.  There was a time when the US Merchant Marine ruled the seas.  Shipping companies then started registering their ships in other countries, usually dictator-led Latin American, to cut the costs of crews and maintenance.  Then came the dominance of container ships.</p>
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