Thank you, veterans.

you can Digg it here

Better fought is a war with the war mongers when needed.

“I think the world would be better of if everyone had the same attitude – questions first, guns second even in war; and before war a sincere belief that war really is the last resort, not the first.”

I agree.

That’s one of the reasons Obama won. He’d like to use diplomacy over aggression.

You take a minute each day at 11:11?

I want to know the last time a war that the U.S. fought was in the U.S. interest. Some would say WWII, but that is arguable. And in any event, is over 60 years ago.

oh Ian, my grandfather (proud WWI doughboy) used to recite that poem – tearing up a little as I always feel him so close on this day

thank you

and dear god yes, thank you veterans, and my deep gratitude to the families of those who gave all

Professional soldier here. Daughter of a soldier. Granddaughter of a man who was hunted by the Germans and put into Neuengamme concentration camp when they caught him. Married to a soldier, daughter in law to a soldier.

I can’t help thinking of how every single one of those men sometimes when they are talking there is a long silence only their eyes moving as they think about the things they’ve seen.

So here goes:

Who are these? Why sit they here in twilight?
Wherefore rock they, purgatorial shadows,
Drooping tongues from jaws that slob their relish,
Baring teeth that leer like skulls’ tongues wicked?
Stroke on stroke of pain, — but what slow panic,
Gouged these chasms round their fretted sockets?
Ever from their hair and through their hand palms
Misery swelters. Surely we have perished
Sleeping, and walk hell; but who these hellish?

– These are men whose minds the Dead have ravished.
Memory fingers in their hair of murders,
Multitudinous murders they once witnessed.
Wading sloughs of flesh these helpless wander,
Treading blood from lungs that had loved laughter.
Always they must see these things and hear them,
Batter of guns and shatter of flying muscles,
Carnage incomparable and human squander
Rucked too thick for these men’s extrication.

Therefore still their eyeballs shrink tormented
Back into their brains, because on their sense
Sunlight seems a bloodsmear; night comes blood-black;
Dawn breaks open like a wound that bleeds afresh
– Thus their heads wear this hilarious, hideous,
Awful falseness of set-smiling corpses.
– Thus their hands are plucking at each other;
Picking at the rope-knouts of their scourging;
Snatching after us who smote them, brother,
Pawing us who dealt them war and madness.

“Mental Cases” – by Wilfred Owen

Erdla

we’ve found that the boundary between what makes a good peacekeeper, a good peacemaker, and a good soldier is not so different as some other countries think

repeated for good measure

People of a certain age and beyond remember when their fathers and grandfathers called today Armistice Day. In honor of their service and sacrifice I am plagued by a wave of shame that we good have done more to stop the war in Iraq. In a search for some measure of solace about this, I found this anecdote about Khrushchev, when he first dared to speak of Stalin’s era and its atrocities. It goes like this:
–
At one point in his speech, a voice cried out: “And where were you, Comrade Khrushchev, when all these crimes were being committed?” Khrushchev paused, look over the hall, and in a thunderous voice demanded, “Who said that?” The hall was silent. Khrushchev then called out, “Whoever said that stand, standup!”

Again, no one moved. Then Khrushchev looked in the general direction the voice had come from, and said, “Comrade, where you are now is where I was then.”

Just on November 11th :)

Yes. My father was not a soldier, but he was in India during the partition. He has never said Mountbatten’s name except as a swear word, and he has never talked about what he saw during the partition.

Rachel Maddow on war crimes, speaking with the producer of Taxi to the Dark Side.

I didn’t realize that Rice produced for the Senate a written notice that torture was discussed in the White House.

All wars will cease when men refuse to fight. (Anon)

Canada is famous for having invented peacekeeping, but again, we’ve found that the boundary between what makes a good peacekeeper, a good peacemaker, and a good soldier is not so different as some other countries think. Especially in counterinsurgency operations, the best policy is usually to talk first and shoot second rather than to shoot first and ask questions second.

This is a stark contrast to how the civilians in the Rummy/Cheney PNAC Axis have run things for the past eight years. Or how Cheney, when he was SecDef, wanted to prosecute Desert Storm. (One of his ideas, which took the combined pressure of both Colin Powell and Norman Schwarzkopf to kill, was to drop the 82nd Airborne into downtown Baghdad, hundreds of miles from any supply lines. When, in the summer of 2002, Chuck Hagel was mockingly talking about how stupid it would be to drop the 82nd Airborne into Baghdad, he was taking a shot at Cheney’s murderous, callous idiocy.)

War is what happens when reason fails.

One of my one-liners about W et al was they got up every morning & decided what new enemy they would make that day.

Thank you for this, Ian. We grew up having the world stop at 11:11 to remember the fallen.

It’s too easy to feel like those deaths are somebody else’s problem, but they died for our freedoms. Hope we are now defending those freedoms with equal vigor.

My grandfather who fought in France in the first World War died on November 11, so this day always has a double meaning for me.

so good to have you join us -

we’ve found that the boundary between what makes a good peacekeeper, a good peacemaker, and a good soldier is not so different as some other countries think.

MarkfromIreland moved us all on this subject in some of his earliest comments at Firedoglake

It’s something I find chilling. Both Du and mfi – use the word “civilian” as a swear word and for both of them their contempt for civilians is because of the bloodthirstyness of civilians.

Erdla

Disagree – for me war is what happens when somebody thought they could get away with it. Somebody somewhere on one side miscalculated and now there is a war. I think it was Barbara Tuchman who said that “War is the unfolding of miscalculations”????

I remember visiting Verdun. You can still see the slit trenches zigzagging through the woods that have grown up. Various areas are still off limits due to unexploded ordinance. They used to let only sheep graze there. It was a way to demine the area. The sheep would get blown up and not people. They used to say to that the boars grew fat in the first few years following the war feeding on the human remains. It is a very sad place.

Particularly civilians who have never witnessed the horrors of warfare first hand yet shout from every venue, “Let loose the dogs of war.”

Something like that yes. And I have a note here about did you get the photos on flickr? (Sorry Ian)

Erdla

Totally off topic (sorry Ian):

Here is something interesting, if true. Conyers to have impeachment hearings post election. Now could that help prevent a Bush pardoning frenzy?
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..630/659405

my mom, at 78, is a very proud navy veteran (waves, early 50’s), as well as a very vocal Democrat. she absolutely loves Veterans Day and all it stands for. one of the most special Veterans Day for her that i can recall was one year not too long ago we were at a Pow Wow in Virginia when all the veterans present were called to dance in the circle to be honored. On that day she was both the oldest veteran present, as well as the only female. She was on cloud nine for days after.

today she was thrilled to don her new “Veterans For Obama” sweatshirt, along with her navy cap, while out and about. she called my sister in tears about an hour ago because some a$$hole dared to confront her and ask her how dare she wear such a shirt … this towering guy got in her face berating her to the point that the sales clerk had to come from behind his counter to stand between the jerk and my mom, telling him he was way out of line and to leave the store immediately. my mom was so frightened by the verbal assault she couldn’t re-tell the story without breaking down.

i can’t believe she was treated so boorishly in public. this was in daytona beach … but it could have happened anywhere. i wish i had been there. i blame the trash talk a$$-hat radio talking heads for inspiring something so despicable.

i hope it doesn’t cause her to be afraid to wear her shirt in public again.

outraged_~itunkala

Actually Ian, not to contradict you on an excellent piece, but we take a minute to remember at 11 am each Nov 11th, not 11 minutes after 11.

The ceremonies at Parliament HIll are always marked by a moment’s silence at 11 am.

Yes I did. Thank you. When I had to replace my dead computer it was one of the first sites I relocated and bookmarked.

Some folks inherit star spangled eyes,
Ooh, they send you down to war, Lord,
And when you ask them, “How much should we give?”
Ooh, they only answer More! more! more! yeah,

It ain’t me, it ain’t me, I ain’t no military son, son.
It ain’t me, it ain’t me; I ain’t no fortunate one…

As a veteran I don’t expect anything on this day. The whole idea for me it was the right thing to do, it’s not something I should continually be repaid for doing. For me it’s a day to honor those currently active, those who served and were injured and those who gave their final measure.

Isn’t a miscalculation the failure of reason

Horrible.

I think the world would be better of if everyone had the same attitude – questions first, guns second even in war; and before war a sincere belief that war really is the last resort, not the first.

This is an attitude that before the Bush Administration would have widely been considered unremarkable. What is remarkable about the Bushies is that there are now so many things on that list.

Funny, I could swear it was 11 past 11. Maybe that has changed. Or maybe it was always 11 and I simply am mistaken.

No I don’t think so. Faulty reasoning perhaps.

From Paul Hackett:

As we take this day to remember our Veterans, we also need to remember the injustice suffered by Senator Cleland six years ago by Republican Saxby Chambliss who himself received five deferrements during the war when Veteran Max Cleland gave so much for our country.

On December 3, Georgia voters have a choice between Republican Saxby Chambliss and Democrat Jim Martin. On this Veterans Day the choice between the Republican who ran what might be the sleaziest political ad of all time and Democratic Veteran Jim Martin could not be clearer. Jim Martin needs your help.

Folks who haven’t seen it, often don’t “get” it. I’m no soldier, but I grew up in large part in the third world and I talked to adults who were involved in things like the Bangladesh war of independence. War is always the last resort, because even in a war that you have to fight, horrible things will happen.

But the viciousness of humans in packs should be familiar to most people who even went to high school. Many people enjoy being cruel, and not looking that in the face is one of the reasons we are so surprised when people act in perfectly predictable ways.

Add that to the fact that people live up or down to what you expect of them, put in some “George Bush lying about Iraq causing 9/11 and officially sanctioning murder” and what happens is completely predictable. Evil, other, and torture is ok.

Joy.

The eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month.

War is a racket – Smedley Butler

Great little book and is available online in pdf.

Jane a couple of flights upstairs on Traitor Joe.

My preferred reading for Veteran’s Day is Walt Whitman. Here’s his Dirge for Two Veterans.

The last sunbeam
Lightly falls from the finish’d Sabbath,
On the pavement here, and there beyond it is looking,
Down a new-made double grave.
Lo, the moon ascending,
Up from the east the silvery round moon,
Beautiful over the house-tops, ghastly, phantom moon,
Immense and silent moon.
I see a sad procession,
And I hear the sound of coming full-key’d bugles,
All the channels of the city streets they’re flooding,
As with voices and with tears.
I hear the great drums pounding,
And the small drums steady whirring,
And every blow of the great convulsive drums,
Strikes me through and through.
For the son is brought with the father,
(In the foremost ranks of the fierce assault they fell,
Two veterans son and father dropt together,
And the double grave awaits them.)
Now nearer blow the bugles,
And the drums strike more convulsive,
And the daylight o’er the pavement quite has faded,
And the strong dead-march enwraps me.
In the eastern sky up-buoying,
The sorrowful vast phantom moves illumin’d,
(’Tis some mother’s large transparent face,
In heaven brighter growing.)
O strong dead-march you please me!
O moon immense with your silvery face you soothe me!
O my soldiers twain! O my veterans passing to burial!
What I have I also give you.
The moon gives you light,
And the bugles and the drums give you music,
And my heart, O my soldiers, my veterans,
My heart gives you love.

Willie Mcbride

I assume your aware of Paul Fussell’s critique of the poem in his book The Great War and Modern Memory? Which Wiki is also kind enough to summarize here.*

Though I’ve nothing against Canadian chauvinism.
________________________________
*And yes, I’ve actually read the book, more than once, first in college for a class titled War and Politics. Not all knowledge comes from teh Internet and Wikis.

Sorry to be late, Ian, but thank you for this. I was going to say “the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month,” but Southern Dragon beat me to it.

My dad’s older brother died at Passchendaele in 1917 (yes, I really am that old), and both my parents joined up in 1939 (yes, that’s when WWII started for Canadians), so whatever my politics have done to me since, this day always takes me back to quiet tears I’ve seen on the faces of the people I loved most, who were remembering people born in the C19.

I don’t know that I would call us chauvinists, exactly, EPU, although we are a bit spiky, since we’ve learned that our troops are always the ones who are thrown away cheaply (certainly the story of Passchendaele, and kind of what is going on in Kandahar province right now). We fight well; we die well; that’s why everyone likes us.

It’s one of those poems that has resonance beyond the words, it’s so tied into the Canadian experience of the day, that it’s impossible to seperate.

I’ve always thought highly of Fussell’s critique of war literature in The Great War – and even think it has lessons for today regarding cultures and myths in the making/selling of war. But of course, YMMV, and I’m not Canadian.

Thanks Ian.

Skdadl – (There is no snark in this btw) I’ve always wondered about the idea of dying “well.” Are there better ways to die, more “virtuous” ways to die?

That idea – of dying “well” always makes me think of these lines from Catch-22

Capt. Nately: You’re a shameful opportunist! What you don’t understand is that it’s better to die on your feet than to live on your knees.
Old man in whorehouse: You have it backwards. It’s better to live on your feet than to die on your knees. I know.

During the Vietnam era, more than 30,000 Canadians served in the US armed forces. Fred Graffen, military historian with the Canadian War Museum, estimated in Vietnam Magazine (Perspectives) that approximately 12,000 of these personnel actually served in Vietnam. Most of these were natives of Canada who lived in the United States. The military of Canada did not officially participate in the war effort, as it was appointed to the UN truce commissions and thus had to remain officially neutral in the conflict.

110 Canadians died in Vietnam and seven are listed as missing in action.

The numbers of draft US conscientious objectors, draft dodgers and deserters that went to Canada is estimated to be between 30,000 and 70,000 by most authorities.

My family has been out of the military business since WWII, but a solemn observance of Remembrance Day was something I learned early and never lost. 2nd Ypres. Festubert. The Blitz. The Scheldt. Peace is best.

My great uncle commanded an artillery battery at Vimy Ridge. It was the denfining moment of Canada as a nation. He was never the same after.

My great uncle’s name was Samuel McKenzie. His father commanded the Gananoque (Ontario) battery. His grandfather served in the British army in Newfoundland, Malta, Gibralter and Corfu. His uncle served in India and was present at the Relief of Lucknow.

God bless them all.

True dat Ian.

I am very proud of our brave soldiers past present and future.

I remember with pride and love in my heart.

I have a cousin current serving in Afghanistan, so this is especially keen for me right now.

Thanks for posting the poem – I love that poem.