Aloha, Siun!

auto-play is on for those how care about such things.

I’d still temper that euphoria, Siun, Obama is a definitive positive step in the right direction, but, I’m still very concerned about his overall approach to the ME and Afghanistan…

Evening all.

CT – I think we can celebrate the remarkable distance we have traveled without assuming the road is at an end. I have many concerns about Obama and the Middle East but I will be very happy if we do see an end to these air strikes or even a decrease.

ps – we’re resetting the video to turn off autoplay

Please fix the video inbed…it goes on when the page is accessed, even if the reader doesn’t want to watch or read the post. Thanx

Obama has stated he intends to increase forces in Afganistan,any increase in forces is gonna lead to an increase in violence.
An increase in fighting is bound to cause an increase in civilian deaths.

s/how/who

siun; small typo/omittance in 2nd to last graph.

agree – i’m very relieved that mccain and the Rs lost, but obama’s foreign policy does not make me want to celebrate – especially his call for an escalation of the war in afghanistan.

The “another” link indicates that an investigation is under way. There needs to be one. I don’t see why this should be happening. Even a callous view of this situation ought to tell us that civilian deaths on this scale only make the job of fighting insurgents harder.

While mistakes were understandable a few years ago, I really don’t understand why this is still happening.

fixed – thank you

i’ll be glad to see gates and petraeus go the way of the bush doctrine.

So the point is that folks should make their views heard – now – and a first step would be to go onto the change.gov site (see very last link) and send a message about how they want Afghanistan approached.

i’m just full of bug reports tonights!

If you refresh, the autoplay should be gone.

His acceptance of the Iran nonsense concerns me greatly too… Iran is placed in the same situation as Saddam in having to prove a negative, especially, when the Intel books were cooked liked they were in Saddam’s cae…! Very troubling, indeed…! :-(

seems oddly like a repeat of the last four years.

Thanks for this, Siun!

It does not look that way to me but here’s the question – what are you suggesting we do to change it?

Digg

rather than using the infrastructure for message control, like fisa, use it for actual change.

Your title is a bit misleading, as if Americans in Afghanistan are running around dropping bombs on Afghans just for fun.

The real problem here is that there aren’t enough troops on the ground in Afghanistan as a result of the war of choice in Iraq. When you have troops on the ground, you can send them to the target and put human eyes on it in order to insure it really is the target you intend to strike. When you don’t have those troops, you end up making mistakes like this.

Which isn’t to say that more troops is the only solution. If more troops aren’t accompanied by an increased diplomatic presence and deliberate efforts in reconciliation and nation building, we end up with what we have in Iraq: decreased violence but no real progress.

From what I have heard from Obama with regard to Afganistan he has been both vague and nuanced. In his interview with Rachel Maddow he indicated that it is a fairly hopeless situation. I think he needs to get real clear on what he intends to use troops for. I got the impression that he was going to use soft as well as hard power.

My own opinion is that if done at all, it should be a world effort rather than an American lead effort. I do believe that Afganistan is by its nature uncontrollable.

Lets hope a change in administration brings a a change in attitude.
An Afgans life (or an Iraqis) is worth as much as an Americans life.

Actually, the attack was called in by troops who could were aware of the civilians in harms way.

The more troops equals fewer civilian casualties has not proven at all true in Iraq (in fact, the use of air strikes on civilian neighborhoods increased with the surge) and won’t here.

Afghanistan has always been an Achilles heel to numerous ‘empires’ throughout recorded history, nobody has effectively ruled it from Alexander the Great’s era…!

for real…

Bush foreign policy: It’s okay if a few furiners die,if it saves American lives.

Until Obama assumes the mantle on 1/20, nothing is on or off the table. It’s been politics to get elected. You can’t judge this man by what he’s said, I don’t think . . . not to the extent you’d use that judgement to criticize him for something he hasn’t yet done. *G*

Now, we wait, and watch. And hope.

I think we’ll see significant changes in how things are done military wise, as Siun suggests above (and as she recounts, that change is already in place, with a new policy order) . . . and I think the civilian populations of the planet can have hope we’ll stop the wanton and unaccountable destruction of same.

That alone, compared to the past 8 years, will be a HUGE phreaking change, and a hell of a good start.

I DO expect more, but we’ll see . . . . in all regards, we the people must make the effort and take the challenges to hold feets to fires. Be they the feets of our neighbors, our bosses, our family, or elected officials.

We must hold people accountable, and not be complacent. That’s how we GOT here, over the year’s post Camelot/Great Society.

My take is, the boomer’s are no longer alone on many issues.
And that’s a relief to know, younger one’s than us are now joined to causes of equality for all.

I’ll rejoice a bit more, before I start holding any feets to fires (aside from the pubs and evangelicals and whackaloon phucks who GOT us here).

Reid, Pelosi, Sci-Fi, and a few others though, are already in MY sights.

And on really, really short phreakin leash. *G*

Thanks for a fine post, Siun . . .

rather than using the infrastructure for message control, like fisa, use it for actual change.

ding, ding, ding!

Tell that to the 4,192 families… Much less the 2 million+ Iraqis killed…

Thanks Larue … and thanks for making the point that we need to step up and make this new president hear what we want.

And Afghanistan AND Iraq are ours, hoss, they are our Achilles Heel, too.

Here’s hoping President Elect Barack Obama can find our way out of it all.

We can only influence regions with offers of business and commerce.

We can’t influence thru occupation and armed might. 8 years have proven that. And the thousands of years and other civilizations who came before us.

And the Chinese and Russians are out contracting us thru out the East and Middle East . . . aren’t they. *G*

i think it will be a big clue to see if dennis ross gets any kind of position in the new obama administration. if he does, especially wrt iran – then i will take that as a very bad sign.

… gotta go finish cooking dinner or i will burn something.

I’m not thrilled with the AIPAC-bot Rahmbo being the COS…! :-(

well, now that i’m in a bad mood. good night all!

Never thought a Young Egg like me would be offering a Great Elder like you this advice . .

“Patience, Grasshopper.” *G*

America: We aim for the wedding dress.

That’s been all too true …

Hi Siun,

I’ve only skimmed through the laws of war link, perhaps taken in it’s complete context the following is less ambiguous, however it appears to allow some leeway for the would be attacker. (emphasis mine)

-the attack must be cancelled if the incidental harm caused to civilians or civilian objects would be disproportional (excessive) to the direct military advantage anticipated.

Where we would consider ANY civilian loss of life excessive, it seems to imply that the military can set the bar where they like regarding how many civilian casualties are acceptable while achieving a “direct military advantage.”

Dood, You’re older than me, you old fart…! ;-)

There is leeway – but killing 30 and wounding 35 with an air strike sure sounds disproportionate to getting 9 insurgents to me.

You may not be familiar with how these things work. Calling for fire is not an exact science. You can’t put a JDAM on a dime. And the guy calling for fire isn’t on the spot, obviously, as then he would be calling for fire on his own position.

and repeat after me: Afghanistan is not Iraq. Afghanistan is not Iraq. Afghanistan is not Iraq. They are two very different countries that require two very different strategies.

Of course, RULING Afghanistan was never part of the stated objective. How many people can recall in the 2000 campaign when Bush criticized Clinton by saying the U.S. shouldn’t engage in “nation building?” Somehow, despite Powell’s Pottery Barn analogy, Bush failed to comprehend that if you topple a government, your choice is to exit immediately, leaving it in a shambles or stay until a new power structure is in place. The Bush policy appears to combine the worst of all scenarios, stay WHILE leaving it in a shambles.

Not to mention the countless times they’ve killed scores of civilians and NO insurgents.

two very different and immediate exit strategies.

Also the fact he’d pursue a ‘humble’ Foreign Policy…! :-(

He simply misspoke, using the word “humble” where he had intended to say, “dickheaded.”

Actually, once you invade a country, you pretty much have to stay they and take over government until the invadee gets itself together enough to run itself.

Richard Clarke’s name has not come up. Why?

Sends a fuck you message to the 1.5 billion people who are muslims.

You don’t HAVE to. Granted, most of the time it would be a humanitarian disaster to invade, destroy the infrastructure and then leave. The trouble is, it is nearly impossible for a nation to get it’s act together while occupied by a foreign power. All part of why intelligent civilized nations only go to war as a last resort.

Damn funny if it weren’t so close to the truth.

You always do a nice post Suin…thank you.

I’m am hopeful there will be a role for Clarke. Awhile back I heard an interviewer ask him if he would be receptive to an offer to join an Obama administration. His answer was vague but didn’t appear to rule it out.

Here’s get your shit and go. Or just leave. You guys are not tourist you are invaders. Duh.

When your in some elses hood, expect to get shot at. By the way Suin have yoy heard any blowback in Chicago on the appointment of Rahm Emanuel in the Muslim community?
Anyone know if the Emanuels helped Obama with the South Side community organization? Reading his book there was not much help from city hall or anyone else it was getting the community to help itself and that fell apart after a few years. Really sad for South side and inner city kids and their moms.

Interesting question – I haven’t heard anything from Chicago though will be seeing a local friend this week who I suspect will have a lot to say on this – but have heard that Iraqis and others in the Middle East have noted the Rahm appointment and are not pleased (that’s putting it politely).

RockRichard – I have the impression we’ve had this conversation before in another location … given that the wedding party was sizable and attempted to leave, I find it hard to believe that no one knew they were there nor suspected that calling in a JDAM on what must have been a decent sized building/location was likely to involve civilian casualties. And apparently the issue was clear enough to lead to the new orders – no one has claimed that the US forces were unaware of the civilians in the line of fire but instead the Maj Gen says that *in the future* they will hold back in these circumstances. International parties from the UN to Amnesty International to Human Rights Watch plus the Afghan government and several British commanders in the field have noted that the US approach is at best lacking in proper caution for civilians – I find that quite telling.

Dear Siun,

Thanks for this, and so many other posts.