Mitchell Gold has strung together a remarkable collection of first-person essays in his book, Crisis: 40 Stories Revealing the Personal, Social, and Religious Pain and Trauma of Growing up Gay in America. Some are the stories of famous people like Candace Gingrich and former NJ Gov. James McGreevy, others are the people behind familiar organizations like Kevin Jennings (founder of the Gay, Lesbian, and Straight Education Network), and still others are "ordinary" folks. They are old and young and in between; they are from various places around the country; they are rich, poor, and middle class; they are people of all racial and ethnic backgrounds.
And they have very engaging stories.
They are stories of pain, to be sure, as the title of the book would lead you to believe. There are suicides (attempted and successful), physical beatings, taunting and name-calling and rejection and plenty of internal psychological pain. The book grew out of Gold’s desire to change some ugly facts, like these: suicide is the #3 cause of death among 15-20 year olds (with 20 unsuccessful attempts for every successful one), and gay teens are four times more likely to attempt suicide than their non-gay classmates. These are stories that do not sugarcoat things.
These are stories of power — societal power, familial power, religious power, personal power. Ultimately, each story is that of someone claiming power over their own life, but never in a vacuum. Some stories are filled with ups and downs, while others follow a more constant arc, but all of them are stories of competing powers in the lives of the one telling the story.
These are stories of struggles, especially religious ones. Some of the stories describe people cutting their ties to religion, while others grow more strong in their faith — even while coming to terms with their own sexuality as a GLBT.
These are stories of partnership. While the pain is very real, also coming through the stories are pictures of friends, teachers, neighbors, family members, religious leaders, and other allies who offer support, acceptance, and love. There is a great deal of humor here, too, such as this exchange between Howard Bragman and his very Jewish mother:
Once, we were at Minzer Park, an outdoor mall in Boca Raton, Florida, and some flaming queen walked by. My mother turned to me and said, "Don’t look at me, he’s one of yours." I said, "When you take responsibility for every Jew in Florida, I’ll take responsibility for every gay in Florida."
These are stories of surprises. Some are nasty ones, as young people struggle with rejection from those they thought would support them. Others are amazingly wonderful surprises, as acceptance comes from unexpected places. Katie Batza tells of coming out to her best friend at her very conservative, very homophobic Catholic school, whose reaction was "Jeez, is that all? I thought you were going to tell me you had been abducted by aliens."
These are stories for everyone. For straights, they offer a glimpse into the struggles a GLBT young person faces. For GLBTs, they offer insights into the many places people find love and support all around them. For all of us, they offer a chance to step into someone else’s shoes, to see through someone else’s eyes. The diversity of the collection makes it powerful to a diverse readership as well.
All this being said, this isn’t the post I wanted to use to introduce this book.
In my head, I actually had two posts ready for this Book Salon, depending upon the results of the Proposition 8 vote in California. If "No on 8" had prevailed, we could talk about how wonderful it is that the largest state in the US had taken a stand in favor of civil rights and fuller acceptance of gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgendered people. We could talk about the positive message that this would send to anyone who is GLBT or who loves someone who is. That post, sadly, will have to wait for another day.
But that day is coming — make no mistake about that — just not as soon as we’d like.
Ultimately, these are stories of hope. In reading this book, I was reminded again and again of SF Supervisor Harvey Milk’s famous "Hope" speech (YouTube excerpt here) :
And the young gay people in the Altoona, Pennsylvanias and the Richmond, Minnesotas who are coming out and hear Anita Bryant in television and her story. The only thing they have to look forward to is hope. And you have to give them hope. Hope for a better world, hope for a better tomorrow, hope for a better place to come to if the pressures at home are too great. Hope that all will be all right. Without hope, not only gays, but the blacks, the seniors, the handicapped, the us’es, the us’es will give up. And if you help elect to the central committee and other offices, more gay people, that gives a green light to all who feel disenfranchised, a green light to move forward. It means hope to a nation that has given up, because if a gay person makes it, the doors are open to everyone.
Hope. By the end of the book, that this what these stories are finally about. Hope that life can be better for all of us, and that pain and trauma are not the last words for any of us, regardless of our own sexual orientations or the orientations of those we love.
Milk said, "You have to give them hope," and Mitchell Gold delivered.
(Out of respect for our guest, please keep the conversation here focused on the topic of the book, and take other conversations to the previous thread. Thanks!)
Related posts:
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes William Greider, Come Home America
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Thom Hartmann, Threshold: The Crisis of Western Culture
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Chris Mooney, Unscientific America
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Paul Starobin, After America: Narratives for the Next Global Age
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Michael Huttner and Jason Salzman, 50 Ways You Can Help Obama Change America
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Welcome, Michael! Glad to have you with us today.
Aaaackk!!! Now that’s embarrassing!
(ahem)
Welcome Mitchell! Very glad to have you with us today!
(Preview is my friend. . .)
Thank you. Good to be here. Mitchell
Welcome Mitchell, thank you so much for being here today. And thank you Peterr.
Michell, how did you come to select this particular group of people to tell their stories?
Mitchell — was it difficult to get people to tell you their stories? How did you find everyone?
Welcome to the Lake Mitchell,
looks a like an important and exceptional book,
thanks for the enticing intro Peterr.
Can you give us a recap of one or two stories?
I had a great sense of urgency to get this done quickly to stop the harm. And I knew I wanted the people to be diverse so I started by reaching out to people I knew well enough to ask directly. More than 20 said yes quickly. Then people started suggesting others that they could contact and some people heard about the book and contacted me. The under 25 folks I met through GLSEN, Point Foundation and some friends.
Welcome to the Lake Mitchell…..and thanks for what you’re doing for and in rural NC.
The book sounds fascinating and will put it on my wish list.
It was more difficult to get people to REALLY tell their stories than I anticipated. People don’t like to dwell on past painful times. So we had to dig with the contributors. We would usually wait until about half way into the interview and then ask to tell us the worst time they could remember…that usually opened some flood gates.
The passage of Prop 8 really made the Tuesday presidential victory bitter sweet. Can you talk about what it’s like to release a book like this at the same time homophobia in a supposedly progressive state is raging?
I wonder if any legal challenges to prop 8 will succeed?
Well, that makes sense, and I should think for older people, that would be the case – their “walls” are a lot thicker and covered with more layers. It would take them longer to feel comfortable with telling anything.
I like the part in the preface to Barney Frank’s essay, where you write about asking him to be part of this project on the day after he spoke passionately for the passage of EDNA, and give his reaction:
You know you’ve got the attention of a member of Congress when they tell their staff to hold back other callers.
And I agree with Barney’s assessment.
To be fair, I don’t believe that homophobia in CA is “raging”. I think the opposition was simply better organized and well financed.
Thank you for this very important book. I plan to buy a few and send as gifts, it really resonates for me.
PS: While home from college one holiday, I remember writing a short poem – “Growing up Gay in Cucamonga”. Can you guess the second line?
This was a very eye-opening book to read, even for someone whose struggles were reflected in some of the narratives. You did a really good job of providing a wide range of experiences.
I hope your book can go some distance to providing hope and guidance for young people who saw their rights taken away on Tuesday. I really hope this disastrous vote doesn’t lead to more self-destruction and gay-bashing, as these plebiscites have in the past. It’s soul-crushing for someone in a stable, long-term relationship who came to terms with his sexuality long ago; I can’t imagine the devastating impact it must have on those in the throes.
And, as someone who once lived in North Carolina, I must also congratulate you, Mr Gold, on your new Senator. Defeating Liddy Dole was a priority of mine, and I hope you and others can get Senator-Elect Hagan on the record on LGBT issues.
Thanks for this great book, Mr Gold. I highly recommend it to anyone growing up gay in America — or anyone raising someone who may be gay. It’s not the only book parents should read if a child comes out to you, but it’s certainly among the best. If you know someone who’s come out, or is coming out, or may come out, you owe it to yourself to better understand the struggle. Reading this book will help.
You have a point, Brenda. However, the “better organized and well financed” people on the “Yes on 8″ side ARE Homophobes.
Welcome Mitchell, and thank you Peterr for the intro. I don’t know if anyone remembers a great discussion at FDL about transgendered issues- prompted by a post by TeddySF- having to do with the hate crime bill. It was a great discussion- one of the best at FDL, but I was taken aback by the level of misperceptions some had about transgendered people. Heart-breaking, really. It seems to me that this is the group that is most vulnerable to… well.. sorry, words fail…
Elliott: Rev. Irene Monroe is a wonderful black woman who is currently at the Harvard Divinity School. Abandoned as a baby and brought up in foster care in Brooklyn, she tells about being a lesbian in the 60’s in this environment. Her story is breathtaking.
Bruce Bastian who created Word Perfect shares his diffulties being a Mormon kid decades ago and how debillating the religion based spiritual pressure was.
Fast forward to the recent story of Jared Horsford, a 26 year old student in Texas and learn that growing up in a devoutly anti-gay Christian home is still as horrible as it was decades ago.
Mitchell, any plans for a followup book? Perhaps “Couples Under Fire: The Social, Political, and Religious Struggles of Same-Sex Partners” — looking at how same-sex couples deal with the pressures they face, in the same way you looked at the pressures of growing up gay.
Mitchell – please correct me if I am wrong, but I see what happened with Prop. 8 as part and parcel of the same sort of thinking as is played out with the right wing about universal healthcare, right to organize, equal pay for equal work and so on, which is the whole “I’ve got mine – and I have the right to deny you the right to get yours because I want there always to be this position where I can feel superior to YOU.” Am I nuts with this?
Yes, that’s what I said.
One other element of the book that makes it great for passing along as a gift are the various resources listed in the last section: organizations to call (including a great list of denomination-specific, GLBT-friendly religious groups), as well as organizations NOT to call. The take-down of “reparative therapy” is also quite good.
Bruce Bastian and his WordPerfect former business partner were both major contributors to the fight over Prop 8 — on different sides.
ok friends…I’m just getting the hang of this and a little backed up. So i’d like to answer a few at once.
Homophobia IS raging in Ca. and all over America in the fundamentailist denominations. It is not raging in the other silos. Where it is not raging, I believe the people are being complicit in the harm caused by their silence and inaction.
Prop 8 and the other anti-gay ballot initiatives are one of America’s greatest moral failings of our time. Many people and places at fault including the strategy and messaging against the ballots. What does it say to the 14 year old kid that woke up in California Wednesday morning to learn that a variety of religious people and groups won in having them deemed as second class citizens? that they should not be allowed to legally be with the person they love, want to support and spend their life with? We must stop not calling the disease what it is: reglion based bigotry.
Hey jaq, Teddy- a bit of OT personal info, by my 92 yo mother voted no on Prop. 8. It was obvious to her- gay marriage didn’t bother her a bit. Why shouldn’t everyone have the same rights? I still don’t know who she voted for as Pres. *g*
Since it’s religious-based bigotry, what’s your opinion of the various measures underway specifically against the LDS? There’s a petition seeking to remove their tax-exempt status, there’s a massive boycott of Utah planned, there’s demonstrations at Temples.
Have you any other ideas how to focus this on the religions that promoted YES on 8? Seems to me that Dobson, Perkins, and Pastor Rick Warren are getting off easy with all this (appropriate) focus on the Mormons.
Reading this book while the Prop 8 debate played out, I was struck by one little piece in the essay by Hilary Rosen. She was working as a lobbyist in DC for SF in 1982, while DiFi was Mayor and the city was starting to deal with the growing AIDS crisis:
There’s so much packed into that one little exchange. The homophobia of the unknown “few homosexuals” gave way, at least for a moment, to a certain amount of compassion – a hug.
I wonder what Senator Hatch thinks of Prop 8. Maybe a few visits from some same-sex couples might help.
Prop 8 and the other anti-gay ballot initiatives are one of America’s greatest moral failings of our time.
Oh I don’t know. I think that if we get organized and do the ground work the people will come along. Have a little faith. What happened is that the gay community though they could legislate their way into equality and not have to do the kind of grassroots community education that has been traditional.
I think they miscalculated, and I have faith that once people understand the issues the votes will be there.
Peterr: I need a breather before another book. This has really been exhausting combined with my day job. But my business partner and I have started on a second decorating how to book.
Toby/Wollin: I’m not sure I see the fundamentalist attitude as I have mine and tough for you. It’s much more deep rooted in their view of life. Respectfully I say they are obsessed with life before birth and after death. It is really important for us to understand where they are coming from and that is not at all simplistic. But i do really agree with you that there are always people that seem to want to be in a superior position to others. What makes people like that?????
“We must stop not calling the disease what it is: reglion based bigotry.” or, bigotry with a religious excuse. The fundies have been responsible for many ugly things, and make a “virtue” of ignorance, if you see what I mean.
1) One of the things being discussed is that LGBT persons with children were left out of the “No on 8″ push. Do you think that focusing of LGBT parents and their children — especially those of color — would have helped?
2) The first time Prop 8 passed, it was in 2000 and it was the Knight Initiative. It passed by a huge margin: 62% to 38%. It was then struck down by the courts, and then revived, with tens of millions of ads for it carpeting the state. Despite months of that, and despite the lateness of the anti-8 people to mount a countercampaign, their margin dropped by twenty points, to 52%-38%. It seems like, with a good effort, an initiative to overturn Prop 8 could succeed in the near future.
This is also a great book for teachers; middle school is where it’s at.
In Massachusetts, Romney tried to engineer an end-run to get the issue to a vote by the public. Apparently, if it had made it that far (and I have to thank the state legislators for stopping it, even though it became confusing) the fundamentalists were ready to strum up the fear/outrage.
We have to figure out the politics of this and be ready for the next time.
Wow. Thanks for that story, Peterr!
They are going to do the focusing all by themselves, by taking their Prop 8 act on the road. From the AP in yesterday’s SF Chronicle:
I think most folks recognize that Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church crowd are taking things around the bend when they do all their protests at GI funerals and such and claim the GI deserved whatever happened.
We just need to tie the Religious Bigotry of the Mormons and the RCC and the other h8rs to Westboro Baptist church for they truly are all on the same level. It’s just part of the crowd is slightly better dressed and considered more socially acceptable.
I see it that way too. It’s kind of obvious. People who fear so deeply.
But, I agree that it was $$ and those lying-ass ads that drew people to their own dark fears. They came out early and nothing could stop the affect.
It seems the queer fear is the largest hurdle for even progressive Californians. Tied to the religious guilt thing. It’s strong and deep.
I talked to a number of voters who were yes on 8, and nothing I said to them got through. And, I’m pretty good with the facts and metaphors. :(
Teddy: I think we should work extremely hard to get the tax emempt status taken away!!! It’s beyond reason.
The organization I started 4 years ago, Faith In America, works to educate people about how Dobso, Perkins, Warren et al are all repeating the past mistakes in America’s history of using THEIR religious beliefs to legislate the denial of civil rights to gay American’s today. visit http://www.FaithInAmerica.com. Forgive me, but i really do believe if all the advocacy orgs would adopt this messaging we’d be much further ahead.
Attack Faith Based Initiative Millions.
These taxes are used to fuel this hatred. We have to track the unaccounted for millions.
In the name of a little girl who identified as a boy and was sent to Texas for therapy, we must track the money that the Bush administration has given to fundamentalists/evangelicals.
Mitchell – then my question is – the harm has been done – what do we do now..what CAN we do now? As an accountant, I want any religious organizations that put money into promoting this to lose their not-for-profit status and have to pay taxes, big time, on all the money they make. Because it is obvious to me that the LDS and the Catholic Church basically were the foundation of Prop.8 and invested huge amounts of money. I know a petition has been started to present to the IRS. But the other thing is – for all of us who are very comfy-cozy at home, in our straight lives, with our hetero-normative conventional stuff going on and perhaps no one(that we know of)in our families suffering…I think we all need to understand what the issue really is: Fear really IS the mind-killer. I think until everyone looks inside themselves and admits to him or herself that they are afraid of people who do not look like them or act like them AND want to change, it’s going to be very hard.
Have you had many dealings with the religious organizations you list in the book — Integrity (Episcopal), Dignity (RC), Lutherans Concerned (Lutheran), etc.?
I’ve dealt with many of them, and have generally good things to say about them, but one on that list of gay-friendly religious groups caught my eye that I had not heard of before: the Mormon group “Affirmation.”
Track money – you mean the way the Bush Admin. does all the time with the money that supposedly goes to terrorists? Which terrorists are we talking about, anyway?
RE: Hilary Rosen’s packed sentences. This is a key part of why i wrote the book…if we can get people to know the harm they are causing, then i believe a large number will stop. We now know from experience that if this book can be put in the hands of the ‘relgious moveable middle’ they will change. The real fervent anti gay folks are more difficult….but moveable.
The proceeds of the book are going to 7 non-profit advocacy orgs so i’m not pushing the book for my own pocketbook. If folks will give this to the churches where they grew up or thier high school counselors, or friends and families who need to change…we will see significant change. Sounds a little dreamy but I have seen the changes with my own eyes.
Thank you for that link.
Bookmarked to be shared with others later.
I like your idea. An ad that contrasts the Phelps’ mob anger and fanaticism with the loving, welcome, open hearts of a religious leader who “gets it”.
A major mistake of the NO campaign was viewing California as secular. Many parts of California — look at the Prop 8 map! — are fundie. And outreach to communities of color was particularly missing.
But even in San Francisco, one in four voters voted YES on 8.
The one set of jarring stories to me were those in the workplace, specifically the ones from the sports world. The general message in those stories was pretty much “don’t come out until you retire.”
We’ll know we’re making progress on this when baseball players can come out WHILE still playing in the major leagues.
Your business is located in an area that has a strongly religious and conservative population. Since you have the reputation of being an exemplary employer and citizen there, have you noted any changes in your time there in the ways you are welcomed in that community?
By the way, have always admired you and Bob Page (Replacements Inc.) as businessmen but have thought he might have had it a bit easier since he has less competition and is located in a more metropolitan area.
But the other thing is – for all of us who are very comfy-cozy at home, in our straight lives, with our hetero-normative conventional stuff going on and perhaps no one(that we know of)in our families suffering…
Speak for yourself hun.
But, even people who can be classified as secular, I think, will say they voted yes for religious reasons. That’s kind of what I was hearing when I talked to people.
ie. you don’t have to be a fundie to be a bigot. Although, it couldn’t hoit.
CW Nevius had a great column today on the effect of Tuesday’s vote on ordinary neighbors, entitled No Chance for Normalcy After Tuesday’s Loss.
This is, in one sense, the same thing that Hilary Rosen said to Orrin Hatch. On the other hand, she didn’t throw eggs at him. Even so, what’s coming out now (so to speak) is that same sense of “don’t talk to me about institutions and marriage in the abstract — you’re disrespecting me and the primary relationship in my life.”
“We just need to tie the Religious Bigotry of the Mormons and the RCC and the other h8rs to Westboro Baptist church for they truly are all on the same level. It’s just part of the crowd is slightly better dressed and considered more socially acceptable.”
I agree!!! One of my strategies is to show how all these folks cause such great harm to teenagers. We must get to the real emotions of what is happening in addition to just talking about the number of rights being denied. A bigot is a bigot. We all know what a bigot was in the 60’s…someone who wanted to deny black people thier full and equal rights. We know what they are today. By tieing them to Phelps we can diminsh their crediblity.
Brenda – ok..I’m not good at communicating this – but I think there are a lot of people who consider themselves to be very ’supportive’ but for whom Prop. 8 did not resonate for them on a personal basis. Until we all understand that we all must muster up to help protect everyone’s rights, then all of us are in danger of losing rights…that the fight is ours as well.
As an aside, (or not) “Pastor I am gay” was banned in Wasilla by guess who?
http://progressivealaska.blogs…..almer.html
I don’t think that revoking the LDS’s tax exempt status is likely to succeed.
Attacking religious faith itself is the stupidest think I’ve ever heard and guaranteed to fail.
You don’t win by attacking people. You win by educating them, sharing your story, informing them of the real issue and inviting them to join you. That’s how it’s done.
Critical to doing that is to have people of faith making that connection. The Mormons in Salt Lake City and the Roman Catholic Archbishop in San Francisco can — and do — easily brush off criticism from secular critics. “They just hate us because we’re so faithful and they’re so anti-religion.”
But when people of faith stand up and say “you’re no better than Phelps,” that’s harder to dismiss.
I have to say some of the stories about teen years resonated in a painful way for me. It’s just amazing how awful that period of life can be for someone who is LBGT. And how clever we are at blocking it out as adults.
I didn’t hear anyone attacking religious faith — and as a pastor myself, I’m pretty quick to hear it when it happens. What I heard was a desire to challenge those whose religious beliefs lead them to take actions to impose those beliefs in damaging ways upon the rest of society.
This is not attacking faith.
This is attacking a taxpayer paid fundamentalist who works on get the gays projects.
OK everyone…I just figured out how to reply properly. Sorry.
It’s a long story of how we are treated and work in our community. The short of it is that they have learned a great deal by our presence and the many conversations. And I have learned a great deal about them. These are well meaning, good people for the most part. Bigotry is defined as fear and lack of knowledge. That is exactly what I have found and learned exists.
Dobson, Perkins and that gang are mean spirited, selfish minded business people. They are in the business of keeping themselves going.
Bob Page is truly one of my heros. I can’t tell you how much i’ve learned from him. Neither of us had it easy. But we’re too naive to know that.
A hug and a smooch to you for that.
((((((demi and VG)))))))
Challenging the tax except status of LDS is not attacking religious faith- it is speaking up for the idea that Church and State should be separate, and I agree.
when people of faith stand up and say “you’re no better than Phelps,” that’s harder to dismiss.
Well… that might work. I’m a little wary of bringing religion into this issue at all. I think doing so will backfire badly. If it’s done right… maybe, if it’s done wrong it could be very bad.
We tend not to dwell on the past. I’m asking you and everyone DWELL ON THE PAST for the next 6 months. Tell people what it was like and tell them there are over 1 million gay teens today….as we are communicating at this very moment…who are going through what we did.
shhhhhhhh….it’s okay.
We’re all here to attack fear and hate.
But, we can only do that with love. Period.
That’s what’s so great about this book. It resonates.
Any teacher who reads it will spend hours or days or even weeks going back mentally through all their former classes, wondering how they treated various students. Any parent who reads it will revisit all kinds of ways they treated their children (regardless of whether their kids are straight or not). And any serious pastor who reads it will look back on all the kids they ever dealt with in a youth group, and rethink how they dealt with them.
I could go on and on like this — if you read this book, you will NOT walk away untouched.
This is mostly about religion. That is the root of the problem. It’s been ignored for too long. We must learn how to communicate about it.
Challenging the tax except status of LDS is not attacking religious faith
Peterr:
I didn’t hear anyone attacking religious faith
Yes but that isn’t how they would see it. They would frame it in the media as an attack on their religious freedom. They would be very well funded, amp up the hysteria and get support from the media itself.
I think such a tactic is dangerous.
Brenda, you can’t NOT bring religion into this discussion, especially when one side of the discussion says that’s the entire reason for being anti-gay, anti-same-sex marriage, and pro-discrimination.
This has to be addressed, and has to be addressed on religious terms.
My father was a wwII combat vet, football coach and bi-sexual, one of my closest friends has a child who is transgender, my sisters oldest daughter is gay. I look forward to a day when none of this means anything other than they just are.
How can you possibly be wary of bringing religion into this issue at all, when the proponents of Prop 8 based their fear-mongering campaign on the tax-exemption of churches and ministers being forced to marry same-sex couples? 80% of the YES money came from out-of-state Mormons. They made it a religious issue, not us.
I spoke at a ‘conservative’ high school in Columbus,Ohio some weeks ago and was really touched by the conversations i had iwht the faculty and counselors afterwards. it is exactly what you are saying, they were a little freaked out by the possibility that they didn’t undersatnd and have more compassion for past students.
The following week i went to my high school and met with the principal and guidance director. Gave them each books and have been invited back to speak at an assmbly in January. I’m really encouraging people to go back to their high schools and give the books. We can make a world of difference, one school at a time, to teens today.
Please, I’m the daughter of a minister,
tell me why I should care how THEY see it.
There are a lot of words in the bible and I don’t know all of them. I have read bunches.
My husband did a search on the internet and found only one – qualifying this ever so much – quote which had to do with a master not laying down with his young male slaves. That speaks to me more about stewardship then homosexuality, but that’s a different conversation.
I’m looking for the money quote that the bigots are basing their narrowmindedness on.
Would love to know if it’s there.
agree totally- and I remember your stories about that.
This is my ultimate goal and dream. It just shouldn’t matter. Thanks.
Mitchell, thank you for your work. I spent a few years working in public health/low income psychiatry clinics in San Francisco. I lost count of the number of patients whose own families threw them out upon learning they were gay. Almost without exception, the patients cited hate preachers as a chief cuase of their estranged families’ ignorance and prejudice.
sigh
Mitchell, you said something earlier in the chat that was extremely perceptive and concise. I have just returned to my native NC after decades in NYC but have never seen the fundamental Christians in your illuminating context.
You’re spot on….they spend their time worrying about the unborn and the dead. What has happened to the idea of being happy and embracing love? (It’s no wonder I see so many of their children who are miserable.)
Spent many hours in Sunday School and went to a Baptist college but the Jesus we learned about would never have been angry/judgemental in the manner of the Dobson et al followers.
This is mostly about religion.
Ummm… no, it isn’t. One of my pastors is gay. I thought you wanted the right for homosexuals to marry? How are you going to get that message through while attacking religion? It doesn’t make any sense.
One thing at a time. Pass equal marriage rights for all glbt persons. Pass legislation for equal rights in general for all glbt persons.
You want to rid society of teh evil fundies? Wow, good luck with that.
we should call this for what it is: child abuse.
Here’s an interesting book
Exile or Embrace?: Congregations Discerning Their Response to Lesbian And Gay Christians (Paperback)
by Mahan Siler (
You’re so right.
Please, I’m the daughter of a minister,
tell me why I should care how THEY see it.
The daughter of a minister shouldn’t even have to ask why she should think of how others feel.
There’s a handful of them, several of which seem to be very straightforward but which actually have lots and lots of cultural context and baggage that needs to be taken into account for the passages to be properly understood. A passage like “you shall not lie with a man as with a woman” is not about condemning a loving, committed, lifelong relationship between two people of the same gender, but it takes a fair bit of conversation and bible study to get someone to see that.
I didn’t hear anything that Mitchell Gold said that advocated “attacking religion”
If it is not about religious beliefs being used to justify why they don’t want LGBT people to have euqal rights, what is it about?
You win.
You’re better than me.
Have you ever done any joint presentations with a supportive pastor?
p.s. I didn’t hear anything that Mitchell Gold said that advocated “attacking religion” in and of itself. This is a different issue- religions being used to justify hateful beliefs.
Just for the record, I am not attacking religion. I am attacking people who use THEIR interpretation of THEIR Bible to justify dehumanizing and marginalizing gay people. Who would legislate them to be be second class citizens.
Over the years I have actually gotten to be more respectful of religion. Revs Jimmy Creech, Mel White, Bishop Gene Robinson, Rabbi Stern…..they have shown me how they use thier belief system to honor others.
I didn’t hear anything that Mitchell Gold said that advocated “attacking religion”
That is how it would be interpreted. That’s how the media will play it. Have you thought about that? What would be your response then?
Yes, often.
Before I leave, I want to thank Mitchell for writing this book. For sharing the stories and for his presence here today.
Thank you Peterr for hosting.
I still would like to see the money quotes from the bible. And, yes, I could take some time to do a search, but I just thought you might know it better.
So, don’t do the right thing because someone else might misinterpret it?
Mitchell, have you heard from any of the people in the book, now that it has been published? I’d be curious to know if they have been approached by others — “Hey, I just read about you in this new book . . .”
Sorry, wrote my last comment before I saw yours.
You’re right.
I do understand it takes a lot of studying, with regards to context, early religious powers deletions and edits, and history to discuss those points.
thanks.
Just for the record, I am not attacking religion. I am attacking people who use THEIR interpretation of THEIR Bible to justify dehumanizing and marginalizing gay people.
My point, to make myself clear, is that they won’t see it that way so it’s best not to go there is the first place. They will ramp up the crazy all the way to 11 on the dial and they’ll have massive support in the media. Do you really want that? Are you ready to handle that?
It doesn’t matter if they are using religious bigotry to advance their agenda. If we bring it in it will backfire. Life isn’t fair.
People are so afraid of how things will be interpreted and what the media will say…or our oppressors. We have to be prepared to tell the simple truth. I’ve been doing it for years and rarely been challenged.
Most recently I was on Charlie Rose (Thursday night). You can view it on CharlieRose.com to see how I present it in public.
We can’t be afraid just because it’s religion. If no one tells someone else they think they are wrong, they will never know it.
Soulforce has a nice pamphlet you can download or view online with the specifics.
Bookmarked. Thanks again.
Martin Luther King Jr. wrote his Letter from a Birmingham Jail precisely to reply to your point, Brenda. It’s something I read at least once a year, and pass on to others regularly as well.
Yes, several. I think everyone of them is really proud to be part of this. It’s funny how the book created a little family out of the contributors.
I wonder if Barney Frank and Tammy Baldwin might be willing to deliver 433 copies of the book to their coworkers? It could really make for some interesting cloakroom conversations.
Your book, and its profiles, really go to the heart of what’s wrong: using religious-based bigotry to destroy the lives of young people just as they are discovering who they are.
I wish you great success with it, and hope it is very widely read among educators, pastors, and parents. Also, of course, teens.
So, don’t do the right thing because someone else might misinterpret it?
No Raven, you do what works. What works is what has always worked, education, raising consciousness and so on. You show people a better way and invite them to join you. Bringing up religion as part of the problem of homophobia will fail, period. Do you want to succeed or not?
Don’t forget to add Jared Polis to that list starting the first week of January.
Also, as a culture, we seem to be forgetting there is supposed to be a separation of church and state. The full civil and legal benefits of a union between two people simply should not be informed/controlled by religious beliefs.
If certain religious sects want to forbid “marriage” ceremonies by their celebrants, so be it.
However, from a purely logical point of view, having the state regulate marriage in the LGBT community is no different to me than apportioning seats on a bus/plane etc. according to one’s color, religion. It’s abominable.
Yes — but, unlike Barney and Tammy, he wasn’t in the book.
Ah. Not having read the book, I was unaware of that. I was just going by his recent election to Congress as an “out” gay man.
I’m sorry i didn’t catch this one.
1. yes, I think they should have been included more visibly. It would move religious moveable middle. but be aware, this is what the fundamentalists feed on….kids wiht gay people is a bad thing to them and they will exploit it.
2. It’s great the margin has been reduced. But losing is losing. The leaders have to take an honest look at why they lost.
yes!
I’m waiting for the first wave of tort actions against the hate preachers (I’m talking you, Dobson) who prosletyze child abuse and abandonment of minor children…on behalf of those abused and abandoned at his behest.
Of course, the civil suits would need to target the Dobson-spouting parents and Dobson. Even if (as likely) he’d successfully sevdr himself and persuade the local judge to drop him as defendant, the apparent result — Dobson abandons his followers — will be useful.
While reading Lane Hudson’s writeup, as he talked about wanting to be politically active in South Carolina and knowing he couldn’t possibly do that if he was out-gay, I couldn’t help but think about Lindsey Graham, and his small tragic life.
I disagree. It’s well past time that people get educated about the difference between “religion” and religious bigotry. Have you ever heard of the “Overton window”?
I think you’re replying to Phoenix Woman @32
Actually, we are working on something. Also, Hilary Rosen will be hand deliving some.
We can’t be afraid just because it’s religion. If no one tells someone else they think they are wrong, they will never know it.
Ok, try this then. Tomorrow for everyone you meet tell them everything that you think is wrong about them. See how that works out for you.
I’m a pragmatist and I’ve done community education about gay issues since the early nineties. I feel I know what works and what doesn’t. Telling the general culture what you think is wrong with them is bound to fail. I’ve got 15 years of experience to back that up. What have you got?
What an odd and unpersuasive dichotomy. Sometomes persuading opponents to become allies succeeds as a tactic. On other occasions confronting, fighting, and (metaphorically) harrying opponents until they hurt so badly they change their policy succeeds as a tactic.
Blind adherence to one tactic and rejection of the other tactic is itseelf a form of faith unsupported by — and apparently inimical to — empirical data or assessment.
Prop 8 failed!!! Doing what supposedly works…does not work. There are 26 states where we lost. Enough. Let’s speak the truth about reglion based discrimination.
The suit filed by the ACLU, Lambda Legal and the National Center for Lesbian Rights to strike down Prop 8 seems pretty solid to me. Basically, that that the initiative process cannot be used to promote inequality.
Slavery.
Women’s suffrage.
Jim Crow.
South Africa and apartheid.
School dances. . . .
Valley Girl it’s fine to disagree. I’m just putting my opinion and my experience out there for consideration. And in my opinion lecturing people about why their religion is hateful won’t get results. It’s also unnecessary so why go there?
Exactly! What is the root cause of a failure to legislate complete equality for gays? It is institutionalized discrimination borne from the efforts of followers of certain religious denominations.
We do not/would not accept the same kind of discrimination against their religions. Talk about hypocrisy!
PLEASE DIGG this. Spread the word; teach teh stupid out of them!
Additionally, it’s very important to point out that in the ONLY state where we’ve succeeded in beating back bigotry at the ballot box, Arizona, voters went backwards on Tuesday, approving the anti-gay referendum they had previously rejected.
How did that happen?
You should continue to do the good work that I am sure you do. There is room for more than one strategy to achieve equality. I remember Martin Luther King and Malcolm X. They did not agree on everything….especially strategy.
We’re coming to the end of our scheduled time with Mitchell, though folks are free to keep the conversation going as long as they’d like.
Mitchell, thanks so much for your book, and for coming here to talk about it — and the issues it touches on, like Prop 8. Good luck to you in whatever you have planned next, and come back to chat with us anytime!
Thanks for your time today, Mitchell, and please let us know about your Capitol Hill action delivering books. We’ve got some history delivering stuff to Congresscritters and would be happy to publicize your efforts if you’d like.
Thanks again for this book.
And thank you, Peterrr, for a great introduction and conversation today.
Thanks for your work Mitchell and for sharing it with us. Am off to watch you on Charlie Rose!
Thank you all. Remember…this is gift giving season (smile).
warm regards, Mitchell
If we continue tippytoe around the fact that religious organizations use money that they secure through their not-for-profit status for political activities, because we are ‘afraid’ of how the media will portray us, then we have lost. We should just pack up the wagons, go home, and all be good enough to go to the funerals of the teenagers who are struggling with gender issues. These political activities have nothing to do with not-for-profit charters AND actually are directly against a religious organization’s being able to maintain status as not-for-profit organization. The LDS church has been in the business for a very long time; ditto for the Catholic Church. They have huge legal teams that theoretically should be keeping them on the straight and narrow about maintaining their status by keeping their hands out of political activities — but they obviously are counting on people like us to be afraid of going up against them. But, they are breaking federal tax law. Sometimes, the only way you can get organizations to stop doing bad stuff is to use Federal Tax Law – and I use the example of Al Capone as a primary case. No matter how many people he or his thugs killed, no matter how much damage was done, no one could get testimony against him or get anything done – because people were afraid. In the end, it was Federal Tax Law that brought him down – for tax evasion.
I’ll have to think about that while I consider the attacks here on Obama because of his pragmatism.
Prop 8 failed!!! Doing what supposedly works…does not work.
What works was never tried or else it would have worked. The vote yes side had 20 million and virtually no opposition. Gay activists miscalculated and thought they could push through legislation at the federal level. They failed. Worse, they were unprepared for prop 8 and did not have much of a ground level organization. Hopefully the lesson was learned.
All is not lost, the legal challenges may succeed. And people on the ground are highly motivated. That’s a good thing. Failure is an opportunity.
Fortunately, he ran a tight ship and was unswayed by millions of calls for a course correction.
Emotions ran higher than usual during this election cycle. Eight years of Bush/Cheney can have that effect on people.
Yes! That is a great example. MLK and Malcolm X. I have read via the internet, some pretty interesting background information (or letters directly) about the exchanges between these two, wherein irrc Martin was ultimately supportive, at least privately of Malcolm X’s strategy. Please take me comment as “my vague memory” because I really don’t remember the details. But, I agree, and would say that different strategies can work together for the same goal.
I really like what you’ve written. We cannot be afraid to speak out. Let’s try it. And the tax thing….hmmm…that is a juicy idea.
p.s. I didn’t mean that MLK was ready to embrace Malcolm X’s strategy, rather that he recognized its contribution.
The one point I might differ on is that they aren’t concerned with our feelings, they bank on POLITICIANS being afraid to revoke their tax-exempt status.
Mitchell – I’m just a reformed accountant(step away from the calculator, ma’m and no one gets hurt”) – but this is clear. nothing to do with religion at all – plain as the nose on your face – they’re breaking Federal Tax Code, which, as you know, is sacrosanct.
Toby, d000000d! You want to go up against the LDS AND the Catholic church? In a country where 60% of the people believe in angels? Wow, I mean good luck but realistically the odds are low.
I’d prefer small battles one at a time. Works so far.
I really have to leave now as i am having dinner with Ray Boltz. If you all don’t know him, google him. Very interesting.
Sorry i missed this one….but now i need to know the second line. pls email me at mg@mgbwhome.com. I’m a very big Cucamonga fan.
As long as Malcom was seen as a hater of whites he was left alone. When he figured out the problems were systemic they killed him. Likewise, when King turned strictly from civil rights to the war in Vietnam, curtains.
ratfood — provided Obama makes sure that the IRS does Not get politicized(unlike Dick Nixon), it will be the grey-skinned accountants and lawyers of the IRS who will be delivering their decisions on the LDS church in Salt Lake City. Not politicians. As a matter of fact, I think that the IRS has a major office in Salt Lake City(it might be Denver, actually but definitely close), so it will be extremely convenient for the auditors to travel to the headquarters and impound the financial records of the LDS. With a good set of nice boring auditors who know their stuff, some computer programs and a bit of time, they should be able to pick that place apart like a roasted chicken.
Raven- interesting perspective. I had never thought of it that way, but, I gotta say my first reaction is “hmmm…. aHa!” thanks.
Everyone has techniques that work for them. Yours work for you. I personally have no interest in going up against any church anywhere – as an accountant, my interest is in their Accounts/Payable Department..the people who collect the check requests and invoices and pay the bills, either through checks, cash or with electronic funds transfer. Every organized AP department has a highly organized system of doing this, with lots and lots and lots of documentation and paper trails. These departments just need to be audited..that is all. If they did not initiate and pay for these activities, then..no harm, no foul. Everyone shakes hands and we all go have coffee. If they did, then they lost their not-for-profit status and have to pay federal and state income taxes on every dollar they take in. Simple as that. God, Belief, Moroni, Angels, Gabriel and his golden trumpet..none of that is in the mix. Just debits to xxx expense and credits to cash. that…is…all.
they bank on POLITICIANS being afraid to revoke their tax-exempt status.
For good reason. America is the most religious country on earth. What happens the day after the Democrats revoke the tax exempt status for the Catholic church? Huh? Anyone? Don’t you think these things through? What happens the next day?
Well I’ll tell you, you can kiss your party goodbye forever. No democrat will hold political office anywhere, ever again.
The churches have always danced around the tax laws and the IRS lets them get away with it and it’s not the result of a unilateral decision on the part of the IRS. Politicians know that a majority of voters can be trusted to ignore most of what they do but start holding their preferred religious institutions accountable and you’ll be faced with one angry electorate.
Personally, I wouldn’t care if a church building and the ground it sits on were exempt, every other church property or financial asset should be taxed like everybody else.
No argument here. That is what I have been saying. Taxing churches amounts to political suicide.
they. receive. taxpayer dollars. for bush. determined. faith. based. initiatives.
Ian has a new post up about Mormons and Prop 8. brb with the link.
http://firedoglake.com/2008/11…..tolerance/
That one of the tactics Rove came up with to get out the evangelical vote.