This is one reason I am not as happy today as I should be.

GLBTG&O Rights are Human Rights.

I would like to see a proposition 9 and make these maggots spend more money on their hatred

I also think a very nice solution would be for the country to get out of the marriage business and leave that to church or affiliation

the government can give union marriages and the religion can give marriage licenses

a couple will be a member of the church that caters to their needs

bing, problem solved

This battle needs to be fought again. You aren’t helping the cause by claiming that everyone who voted for prop 8 did so out of “bigotry and hate”. When millions of dollars go into selling something based mostly on lies some people are going to buy into it out of ignorance. I’m not excusing anyone for voting for prop 8, but I do strongly recommend that you redirect and soften your approach aimed at winning support for a reversal.

The No on 8 campaign is saying that the margin is smaller than the number of absentee and provisional ballots that are outstanding, so we may win this thing yet.

If not, I’m in for the next battle, and, indeed, the war. Our household gave more this cycle to defeat 8 than for any other contest. And we’re not going anywhere.

Just to let my fellow FirePups know, I lost 54-56 in my state assembly race. Thanks to those that offered your words and support (and donations) throughout the past two years, they were all greatly appreciated!

There must be enacted a constitutional amendment stating clearly no constitutional amendment may be enacted that reduces any citizens rights without having 100% concurrence of 100% of the whole enfranchised population. A single vote should be enough to derail such garbage.

What has happened is a travesty and demeans the heart of being American. This must be rescinded, forthwith.

A query into the tax status of any organization which funds such political chicanery must be put in place. If it is found a tax exempt organization is involved in political activities, their tax exempt status must be withdrawn until such time as that organization makes restitution to the victims of the political wrongdoing and a undertaking to desist from further activities is given with surety bonds for performance.

Because, in the end, a progressive movement, a liberal movement, which leaves gays behind is no movement worthy of any of us.

and it’s neither liberal or progressive.

I’m really confused about the passage of Prop 8 and very sad. My confusion is that we also had Prop. 4 which was for parental notice and it failed. It seems to me that the crowd which voted for 8 would also vote for 4 but obviously they did not. Why? Seems to me that I’m not the only one confused – I think maybe some of the voters were too.

I was starting be proud to be an American for the first time since the police riots at the Democratic Convention in 1968.

Then I read that Prop 8 was passed.

You can always sell out somebody to get where you’re going, can’t you? How many LGBT people put months of work into the Obama campaign?

And both Obama and Biden disavow gay marriage?! Ugly.

Ian, thanks for this post. I and my fellow No on Prop 8 supporters are emotionally exhausted by the efforts we have undertaken in the few short months we had to fight this hateful proposition.

I can tell you from personal experience that those who oppose same sex marriage do not view our relationships as loving commitments to one another. All they focus on is SEX. Until there is a recognition that what GLBT’s fight for is to have ourselves and our relationships viewed in the same manner as heterosexuals, I am not sure we will achieve the equality we all deserve.

Having said that, I know all legal recourse is being examined and we will go on to fight another day. There are many scenarios that have been discussed over the past several months and, while some will resolve this more quickly than others, we are likely to not have final resolution for several years. But, we will continue to fight.

Finally, I have to say I am so proud of my friends and neighbors in my South Orange County (very conservative) city that voted overwhelmingly to defeat this hateful amendment. Unfortunately, there were more people seeking to keep us oppressed than to grant us equal rights. Ultimately, I am sure we will prevail.

This is one reason I am not as happy today as I should be.

Me too. I’m taking a lot of shit from my husband for not being more rejoice-ful re Obama’s victory, but I see it as being a mile wide and an inch deep. And I worry about what he will really fight for, and what he will compromise away.

Yep, it’s better than the alternative we were offered last night [McCain + CrazyLady] but it sure doesn’t feel like “victory.”

very sorry to hear that noonan
((((noonan and family and friends and possible constituents that would have benefited from you being in office))))

I got robo calls from both Bill Clinton and Obama opposing Prop 8.

In my mind, you are winner. next time!

My reading has informed me that blacks voted overwhelmingly FOR Prop H8te, which saddens me more than I can adequately express. I think that education is the only answer, especially in the area of civics. The Down-Low hypocrsiy must end!

GregB posted this link in the comments earlier–a boycott for marriott and utah for the money they pumped into ‘yes’ prop8….

http://www.americablog.com/200…..riott.html

This wasn’t Obama’s fault. What a crock of shit.

Didn’t win in the ballot hit ‘um in the cash box.
Boycott and demonstrate outside the ” church” that supported this crap. License numbers off the cars that go into the parking lot and let any business employing them you ,as a supporter of all human beings, will not be buying from them until this travesty is undone. The boycotts in the south weren’t over in a week, crush their pocketbooks.

This battle needs to be fought again.

I totally agree, and flogging Obama over this isn’t helpful.

The man was trying to get votes in redneck areas, and to expect him to lead on this issue to the possible detriment of his campaign isn’t realistic.

I understand the disappointment. As Dr.King said “Injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere.”

But to lay this on Obama is wrong.

My friends who are gay are devastated, angry and feel betrayed.

We knew all along about Obama’s ambivalence toward gay rights. I’m still elated that he won, and I’m angry about his illiberal stance on gays, but I don’t see how gays can feel betrayed. He never pretended to support gay rights. The first thing he did in his campaign is appear with Donnie McClurkin.

We’ve always known he was a centrist.

Thanks Ian.

digg

Gays should start a long and loud campaign thanking prominent politicians for continually protecting them from the horrors of divorce.

I started my day with this:

Best news would be to hear the IRS has sent out tax billings to a bunch of churches. The price of violating their privileged status by messing in political process. They messed up big time, now end the privilege.

http://firedoglake.com/2008/11…..nt-1712915

see @ 8 above as to how that day ends. There is no joy in Mudville, mighty … has struck out.

There’s hope in California. It appears quite likely that courts can be persuaded to declare the prop 8 victory invalid.

The key is that California distinguishes a constitutional amendment from a constitutional revision, and you can’t pass the latter with a simple majority vote.

See http://www.metnews.com/article…..052108.htm

Thanks. I saw that. I already avoid Utah and do not stay at Marriotts. I am sorry my comment was so long. I feel a bit discouraged today but will definitely bounce back. I am a native Californian and know we will get to right place eventually.

Thank you for posting this Ian. I can’t help have my joy with Obama’s election tempered with the realization that vast numbers in our country don’t believe I should have the same rights & privileges they enjoy. Not entirely surprised, but really dismayed.

Come so far, so far yet to go.

“Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty.” — Wendell Phillips, (1811-1884)

Churches continue to enjoy their tax exempt status even if they endorse a political issue. They are simply precluded from endorsing political candidates. Perhaps that should be changed to keep politics out of the church.

IMHO, GLBT’s are at the heart of FDL and the liberal/progressive agenda. No group, imho, not even the black caucus, has been more consistently supportive of liberal/progressive goals.

The political landscape shifted yesterday. Obama is the leader of the Democratic party and it’s ok to criticize him. As a matter of fact, imho it’s necessary on this issue. Whether he was “for it or against it” the voting patterns make clear he was not strong enough against it. Some will make the argument that if he had been more supportive, he would not have been elected. I happen to think that was a very valid argument. He had to run to the middle in order to win. Today, however, is a new day. Loyal descent from the Democratic party’s leader on GLBT issues is ok. Within the FDL community, because of what GLBT have meant to us, it’s more than ok, it’s imho mandatory. We have to support those who have stood with us.

As Pam Spaulding writes over at Pandagon, please don’t place this defeat at the hands of Blacks who voted Yes on this proposition. They were not a large enough piece of the voting population to do that.

Yes!

I’m amazed to be hearing this from a number of circles. I think it’s an idea who’s time is coming.

Folks –

We made a start. We have to roll back values and beliefs that have been around a long time, and have been actively promoted, without effective censure, by the mighty Right Wing Wurlitzer, since Ronald Reagan was elected. Sure, it’s maddening that Prop. 8 won (although that train has not quite reached the station).

I’m gay, and I don’t believe any state has the right to sanction a marriage. Gay, straight, whatever: sanction a civil union, yes.

Two people wishing to be married in a church — any church — is a great thing.

It’s going take hard work to tease out the real issue here, which is not marriage at all, but recognition and protection for a civil union. And oddly enough, this can be played to the religious, who should (hopefully) recognize that the sacrament of marriage is best left to church, without the intervention of the state in any way, shape or form. And ultimately, it should offer greater protection to a partner in an abusive relationship, as the nature of the relationship can be constructed as a contract (and the abuse would lead to the potential for both civil and criminal penalty).

Now, let’s figure out how to make it happen.

You make a critical point. Of course people’s religious beliefs are going to inform their opinion and their vote; but it is not right nor fair to allow political action from the pulpit of non-profits.

leave it to perris to sum it up in a bing

There was a time, in the early days, when FDL was basically seen as the site of the chicks and homos. We’ve always had the progressive roots of those feminist, anti-patriarchal liberal communities.

What an amazing day in American history! Dreams do come true! Did you all see how Oprah Winfrey revealed this week that she uses a vision board to visualize her goals and harness the power of intention? Oprah created a vision board, months ago, that emphasized Obama as president and the gown she intended to wear during his imagined inauguration.

For anybody who doesn’t know, a vision board is collage of image that symbolizes a desired outcome. By looking at these images daily and imagining these desired outcomes – like accomplishing a goal – your brain becomes more honed in to making this reality. Many top athletes, entrepreneurs, presidents, and philanthropists have used vision boards to help them accomplish their goals.

I know that on http://www.TheVisionBoardKit.com you can download a free chapter that includes the eight basic ingredients of a successful vision board.

The Good News:

It looks as tho Prop 8 will be ruled invalid by the California Supreme Court, with no recourse to the United States Supreme Court:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..471/654479

Which wouldn’t be the first time in civil rights battles, that the courts led the fight, with public opinion following.

Very well said. As someone noted above, this whole campaign has caused a schism in the LDS church. When rallying this past weekend, we had an elder from the LDS church rallying with the No on Prop 8 supporters.

I heard a report on NPR this morning discussing the efforts by African American clergy to get their parishoners to vote yes. This, in conjunction with the LDS, Catholic and Evangelical church efforts, created a powerful force to fight against. We know what we are up against and will seek to offset these efforts next time.

wow, tight race. I’m sorry, and hope you’re undeterred.

I live in Europe and have for quite some time. The approach taken in many places is the State is the only legitimate sanction for marriage as it is the state’s courts that rescind that act. Should the additional bell and whistles of a church ceremony be desired, it makes no difference to the states authority. What you suggest, has the authority of the state subjected to and in second place to religious authority. The world does not do well, when it is inverted as you have it. Unbelievable and illogical position to take.

FYI, Florida already had an anti gay adoption law. Now it has an anti-gay and anti civil union law that applies to straights and gays.

Disney is steeped in the hypocrisy of discriminating against gays (on one hand by its support for Republican polticians and policies) and its desire to generate revenue from gay customers (e.g.,Gay Days).

Carnival Cruise Lines also wanted to have it both ways.

Not enough education on the issue and tricky wording and lies to sell it to the voters. The lie is that no other unions would be affected and no one’s rights would be affected. IOW, we simply want to define marriage, they lied.

It’s a pretty big leap to go from a ballot initiative in one state to an indictment of the president elect.

I remember that…
There seems to be a more diverse crowd these days.
Just my own experience.

And there have also been suggestions that the lake has been racist.

from ChrisieKeith at DKos – the challenges to Prop 8 begin.

A country where all men are made equal.

Actually, the words are created equal.

And then yesterday some were made unequal.

And I’m sick over this too. Here in California, I hope the constitutional challenges prevail.

And for every black person who voted for Prop 8 and then went into raptures over electing a black president, I can only say shame on you.

He’s already been prez-elect for something like 18 hours and it’s about time we really let him have it. All together now – IT’A OBAMA FAULT ! /s

I’m a gay man who has been around FDL for a few years so I do know what the score is here.

The Mormons controlled the message on this. They got out in front, and defined the narrative with their hate. In the last three weeks before an election is not the time to play catch up with volatile issues.

I have no problem criticizing Obama. I’ve done a lot of it here myself. This was a failure in messaging. To go from a 17 point lead to close defeat in the span of a couple months demonstrates the failure to control the narrative.

seems like a good idea for a diary

And for every black person who voted for Prop 8 and then went into raptures over electing a black president, I can only say shame on you.

um . .

And for every person who voted for Prop 8 and then went into raptures over electing a black president, I can only say shame on you.

. . . /edit

the only solace i take today is looking at the fact that eight years ago when californians passed prop 22 to define marriage as 1 man + 1 woman it passed 61-39. prop 8 to amend our constitution only squeaked by 52-48. as attitudes continue to change – and they will – our goal of equality will be realized.

Actually, the way No on Prop 8 got the 17 point lead was by controlling the narrative with early commercials. It was not until the Yes campaign started advertising about how children and churches would be impacted (not at all, actually) that the lead started to shrink. But, this was always going to be a very close election.

As in any campaign, there could have been different strategies but, for the most part, the Yes campaign had to lie in order to prevail. It is difficult to hit a moving target, especially when the campaign was only about 3 months long.

Thank you for this post, Ian.

I do not hold Obama or Biden directly responsible for the passage of Prop 8. But Biden’s quick response in the VP debate to the question of gay marriage was painful to watch. The calculus is obvious: support LGBT people’s right to marriage and lose the election.

It’s clear that Obama feels it’s the right thing and a politically possible opportunity to mention “gay and straight” in his speech. That is a big step forward for America.

But as a constitutional lawyer, he knows how all the pieces of this puzzle go together. He knows his position for equality and against equal marriage is logically unsustainable.

So he needs to signal some movement. Tell the world that he was pretty busy the last few months and couldn’t get to this one, but that he’s got it on his radar as an ugly wound in America’s flesh. Tell the LGBT people of California and the rest of the US that he doesn’t take them for granted.

Because he knows what human rights are all about better than nearly anyone else.

This is a great shame and also an indication that much work lies ahead.

Do not falter, keep on until everyone has equal rights !

In the early days of the U.S., the civil ceremony (marriage) was separate from the church ceremony. If I remember correctly from what I’ve read, only a Justice of the Peace or judge could perform a civil ceremony. After a time, the ministers and priests were granted the ability to perform a civil marriage at the same time as the religious ceremony. That’s the system most Americans are used to – a “church” wedding. You can still skip the religious ceremony, as I’ve done, but there is a confusion now. I agree with perris and scory – get the government out of the marriage business, and only issue civil unions for any pair of adults who want it. Grant those unions all the rights we currently grant to married couples.

Unfortunately, Pam Spaulding’s numbers make the opposite case that her words make.

She says that blacks made up 10% of the vote, and voted 70-30 for Prop 8.
And this matches the CNN exit poll, at

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/20…..al=CAI01p1

This means that 7% of the prop 8 vote was blacks voting yes, and 3% of the prop 8 vote was blacks voting no.

With 96% of the vote counted, it’s 52.2 to 47.8 percent. This means that had blacks split 50-50, we’d be looking at 50.2 to 49.8 percent, with some votes from San Francisco still to be counted.

It simply isn’t debatable; had blacks split 50-50, prop 8 would be dead even, and would lose once the remaining votes are counted. Sorry.

I disagree; I think that would be a terrible solution. As an atheist, I find it offensive. Why let religions own the word “marriage”? That would tacitly admit that the “my church doesn’t like it so you shouldn’t be allowed to marry” crowd was right.

The state allows religious institutions to conduct marriages, not the other way around. “By the power vested in me by the State of … ” etc. And that’s the way it should be in a secular society.

I don’t understand how Barack Obama could win overwhelmingly and then go against gay marriage. Something is weird here.

correction:

“…and then Californians go against gay marriage.”

I disagree; I think that would be a terrible solution. As an atheist, I find it offensive. Why let religions own the word “marriage”? That would tacitly admit that the “my church doesn’t like it so you shouldn’t be allowed to marry” crowd was right.

religions would not own the word marriage, you could create your own marriage certificate, the only force of law would be the government union

That was quite a surprise for me as well … lots more work to be done.

please have a read at my diary

the history of government involvement in marriage is short lived in the first place and troublesome in the second

So let us gird ourselves for the next battle. Rights are always inalienable, but sadly they also must always be fought for. And it is that fight that stands before us. I hope all who read this today will join in that battle, for yourselves and your country as much as for your gay friends and fellow citizens. Because, in the end, a progressive movement, a liberal movement, which leaves gays behind is no movement worthy of any of us.

Where do I sign up!

I am still in disbelief that hate has been condoned by voters! There is no place for hate in our country as it belittles all of us even if you voted such proposition down, you are affected by this hate!!
Going forward we need to join with our gay/lesbian friends and neighbors and fight to end this atrocity and remove the hate from our constitutions and laws.
Hopefully the ACLU will take up the banner and fight theses props in the courts! And maybe if we get the right kind of judges on the supreme court we can have such laws deemed Unconstitutional for the whole nation! After all it is discrimination against some one just because of their sexual inclinations! And oh by the way it is NOT a CHOICE is is just the way they are as was intended by God! Remember gays and lesbians have always been part of the human race and if fact it is endemic through out nature!! It is not a CHOICE!! But the way they are born, they can’t just CHANGE!
Well thats my rant and I will do what I can to help to change the laws so our friends are not treated as second class citizens!!

Others know the history of marriage better than I, but I have read that marriages used to primarily be civil contracts, conducted for property and inheritance rights. Religious institutions were secondary.

In either case, that’s not the point. Why should I have to have a religious group… or union (?!) or badminton club to sponsor my marriage? Why do I need a group at all? Under legal marriage as it stands, all I need to get married is a blood test and a partner also of legal age. (I live in Massachusetts, so the gender of the partner is also up to me.)

“Marriage” is a powerful word. Those for and against gay marriage know it; people who vote against gay “marriage” can often be convinced on “civil unions”. But that’s still the back of the bus, even if the bus goes to the same place. It’s separate, and unequal. You’re advocating handing over this powerful word to the theocrats (what else can you call it when a church thinks they should be allowed to dictate civil law), and leaving the rest of us with “civil unions” which have never meant anything, but were created to placate gays… and as Connecticut’s recent ruling describes, are inferior and unequal to marriage.

To be clear, I don’t disagree about separating legal and religious unions. I just don’t see why precedence should go to religions.

Let’s get it back.

What the hell does the Church of Latter-Day Sain’ts and the Holy Roman Catholic Church doing in the California Constitution anyway?

The don’t just hate gays they like underaged girls and boys and hide child-molesters in this church or that church. Disgusting hypocrites.

http://biochemicalsoul.com/200…..l-bigotry/

On the hypocrisy and irony of this vote – from a scientist perspective.

Here are my thoughts on the matter.

TAX THE CHURCH!!!!!!

I’m going to tell a truth, but many will not like it. I’m saying it because it’s going to become a problem, and as a law student we should discuss it further.

A Latina leader has been all over the networks in effect, claiming it was the Latino community that put Obama where he is, and we all better darn well know it and remember that they are a force to be reckoned with and blah,blah

No one dared ask her how much her community also contributed to the sudden multi-state successes of the gay marriage ban.

I’m asking..
And I want to know if Roe v. Wade is next.
And Planned Parenthood. Her male counterpart in the Latino community vowed to fill the huge gap of ‘workers’ we American women left by choosing to have small families – to protect and preserve our resources.

Is ANWR next, and coal and nuclear plants to supply fuel for a population explosion in America?
Just askin..because now she demands a quid pro quo from Obama.

But waaay before that even gets started WE the people need to talk…

What perris said.