In his 2006 book, The End of Iraq, Ambassador Peter W. Galbraith drew upon his years of experience in the Middle East to analyze the multiple failures in judgment and decision-making that resulted in the fracturing of Iraq between Kurds, Sunnis, and Shiites. Galbraith has now written another important and timely book about Iraq, entitled Unintended Consequences: How the War in Iraq Strengthened America's Enemies.
In the book's introduction, Galbraith lists some of those consequences:
- A war intended to fight terror has helped the terrorists.
- A war intended to bring freedom and democracy to Iraq now has U.S. troops fighting for pro-Iranian Shiite theocrats alongside unreformed Baathists.
- A war intended to undermine Iran's ayatollahs has resulted in a historic victory for Iran. Iranian-backed political parties control Iraq's government and armed forces, giving Iran a role in Iraq that it has not had in four centuries.
- A war intended to promote democracy in the Middle East has set it back.
- A war intended to showcase American power has highlighted the deficiencies of U.S. intelligence, the incompetence of American administration, and the limitations on the American military.
- A war intended to boost American global leadership has driven U.S. prestige to an all-time low.
- A war intended to make America more secure has left the country weaker.
Galbraith's argument is simple and devastating: The Iraq war is lost, and George W. Bush lost it. Certainly, Bush had help — the inexperienced and incurious President was surrounded by a gallery of ideologues and ultra-nationalists whose only successes have been the discrediting of their ideology and the weakening of their nation — but history will record the Iraq war as President Bush's failure. At times, this failure was the result of bad decisions, such as the decision — made mere months after the September 11 attacks — to invade Iraq.
Just as often, however, it was the result of neglecting to make decisions at all, delegating the task to underlings who were often in battle with each other. This was the case with the moves to dissolve the Iraqi Army, to fire Baathist bureaucrats, and to have a prolonged U.S. occupation of Iraq. "These three decisions" Galbraith writes, "were the most momentous of Bush's presidency, and the President never made them." Donald Rumsfeld, Douglas Feith, and L. Paul Bremer have all pointed fingers at each other for these decisions, a fact which itself speaks volumes about the administration's incompetent management.
One of the most important interventions that Galbraith makes into the Iraq debate is his thorough dismantling of the argument that "the surge has worked." Though violence in Iraq has dropped in the last year, the reasons for this are complex, and not easily attributable to the influx of 30,000 American troops. The result, in any case, is that the United States has empowered Sunni militias made up of ex-Baathist and former insurgents hostile to the central government, while helping to consolidate control of Baghdad and southern Iraq in the hands of Shiite parties closely tied to Iran, who Galbraith maintains has been the ultimate victor of the Iraq war. The surge has frozen in place a situation in which Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds each believe themselves entitled to concessions and compromises that will likely not be forthcoming. As indicated by the continuing tension between the Kurds and the central Iraqi government in Kirkuk and Mosul, Iraq's political factions could very soon begin again to practice politics by other means.
A particularly good chapter deals with the effects of the Iraq war on the U.S. relationship with Turkey. Galbraith offers an informative survey of the current Turkish political environment, where the ruling moderate Islamist AK Party wants to move the country toward full-fledged democracy. But, Galbraith writes, "the Bush administration's careless handling of relations with Turkey has turned an ally into a country whose people are among the most anti-American in the world." Galbraith suggests that the AK's political rivals might take advantage of that anti-Americanism, and warns that "Turkey's internal power struggle could play out in an unwelcome way in Iraq and the Middle East while undermining the Islamic Middle East's one stable democracy."
The book closes with a simple dictum: "U.S. national security policy should be effective," and George W. Bush's policies have been ineffective because "he has substituted rhetoric and wishful thinking for strategy." Galbraith calls for a reevaluation of U.S. national security policy, recognizing that idealism and pragmatism need not be treated as incompatible. Galbraith also advises against the United States abdicating its global leadership role. While the damage to America's reputation from the Iraq war "will not easily be repaired" Galbraith writes, "the greater damage will be if Bush's presidency is followed by a period of introspection and retrenchment in which manageable challenges go unaddressed." George W. Bush "has given idealism a bad name," Galbraith recognizes, "and this may be the greatest unintended consequence of all."
Ambassador Galbraith will be with us this evening to discuss this important book on America's war in Iraq.
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Welcome Amb. Galbraith, and thank you for participating in this event.
To get things started, having offered a thorough critique of “the surge” in your book, what do you think would have been the result if President Bush had implemented the Iraq Study Group’s recommendations? Would a better outcome have been possible, or were the trends you identify in your book already too far along by late 2006?
Peter, Welcome to the Lake.
Matt, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
Aloha, Ambassador!
I assume that the GOP puts their fingers in their ears and say nanana I can’t here you at your talks.
What is your take on KRG’s Barzani’s offer to host US troops if the SOFA dies and/or the UN Mandate is not extended…?
Welcome to FDL Ambassador Galbraith.
I have not had an opportunity to read the book but was wondering how much of an impact did the BushCo hiring of politically connected idealogues to do the “re-construction” efforts wind up hampering US activities (on top of the lunacy of invading in the first place)?
The Iraq Study Group made important recommendations for a new diplomatic initiative in the Middle East and for a withdrawal of combat troops. Its reommendations on the internal situation in Iraq–which is the root of the problem–were pedestrian and could not be implemented. They showed little understanding of the reality that Iraq’s three communities–Shiite, Sunni, and Kurd–do not share a common vision of Iraq and the Kurds do nwant to be Iraqi at all.
Do you think that Harvard Business School Management techniques were responsible or was Bush just disinterested in a WAR? Or maybe he was to lazy to do the work and would just ask others to do it with no over sight?
The Commander and Chief does provide the over sight in theory right?
Fancy word for YesMen but yeah I second your question.
Welcome to the Lake, Ambassador. I hope Obama will read your book.
I think we have a moral obligation to the Kurds who fought on our side in the 2003 war and have made enemies in the region by being our friend. We also have a political interest in the success of the one part of Iraq that has turned out the way the Bush administration hoped for all Iraq–stable, pro-western, secular and moving toward democracy.
Basing troops in Kurdistan is one way to protect the Kurds and the Kurdistan experiment. So, I would accept Barzani’s offer if the SOFA fails–as I suspect it will.
Thanks, Mr. Duss, for hosting this. Great introduction of the book, you make the case for reading it.
Hi Ambassador Galbraith, welcome to the Lake.
How long do you think it will take for Iraq to recover, presuming we’ll start doing the right thing with Bush leaving office?
Who do you think would be good candidates for Secretary of Defense?
Were you initially in favor of the Iraq War?
Welcome Ambassador Galbraith.
The whole ”surve is working” message has been incredibly successful. How do you think that came to be, and how does it inhibit the ability of a future administration to get us out of Iraq?
I take it that they showed an understanding of what Bush and the oil companies wanted though?
Wouldn’t that strain our relations with Turkey since it would all but guarantee an independent Kurdistan… Of course the Iranians would be none too thrilled either…!
Welcome, Ambassador. Obama’s Iraq policies seem to have been formed more than a year ago, but much has happened in Iraq since, particularly the delays/bickering over the SOFA. And the US has become preoccupied with domestic/economic issues. Do you think these events will force Obama to adjust, and how?
I don’t think I would blame Harvard Business School for Bush’s failure to make critical decisions. No company would long survive with a CEO like Bush.
I do not know Bush and I do not offer a psychological expalnation for his failure to make decisions. I simply point out that he was absent from the most important decisions of his presidency and I find it amazing that he has a repuation a decider.
The fundamentalist part already controls Turkey the Army right wingers act as a check on them I heard there is a trial of exarmy people going on now in Turkey something about plotting against the government.
Whats the likelihood of Turkey joining the Fundamentalist Muslim Nations with no counter balance from the army and the Turkish right wingers?
Welcome Ambassador Galbraith!
Given that the clock is liable to run out without a signed SOFA, what is your best guess as to the consequences:
1. 6 month extension to the existing UN authorization?
2. No extension and Coalition Forces are garrisoned?
3. The current Administration simply ignores both the lack of a SOFA and the lack of a UN extension?
In all cases I can devise, the current Administration takes advantage of the Republican 1st Commandment of: “Heads we win, tails you lose!”
The translation of that means if they don’t get what they want, they punt the mess (they created) onto the next incoming Administration and then proceed to lay the blame for the guaranteed failure on that next Administration.
Welcome Ambassador Galbraith,
What is your opinion re: The Recent Incursion into Syria. Was it a ham handed accident or was it planned? Do you foresee the consequences as having a major effect (vis a vis the border security as one example)?
He is the Decider according to the organizational chart we know he does not decide stuff. Why is the next very valid question? Next is who is deciding anybody?
I’ve always suspected Bush called himself the Decider just to remind people and reassure himself, as he wonder how those decisions were being made, and by whom. Cheney never told him.
What do you think are the manageable challenges in the Middle East?
Iraq was destroyed by a series of Sunni dictators and in particular Saddam Hussein. Parts of the country are now doing quite well economically. Kurdistan, for example, is stable and booming ecomically. So are parts of the south. Iraq, however, will never recover in the sense that it will be a single functioning state. This is not necessarily a bad thing because Iraq never really worked for most of its people (ie the 80% who are Shiites and Kurds).
I went along with the war not because I saw Saddam as a threat to the US (he clearly was not) but because he was a mass murder second only to Pol Pot. I was wrong but, in my defense, I never imagined the incompetence of the Bush Administration in its handling of Iraq after Saddam’s overthrow.
Thanks. That would be nice but he has other things to do until Tuesday.
Oh, there is no excuse for how badly it went. Bush is ultimately responsible but I blame the arrogant Rumsfeld for all the wrong decisions.
Any recommendations for people in the next administration?
What do you think of Bush’s decision to sell the Saudi’s Nuclear Reacter technology and how will that effect the region?
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news.....516-1.html
SH a mass murderer second only to Pol Pot? I seem to remember someone named Hitler. And Stalin. And there are others, against whom SH can’t hold a candle. And by now, hasn’t the U.S. killed many more Iraqi civilians than SH ever did?
Rhetorical Q. Not necessary to respond.
Ambassador have you seen this report from the Task Force for a Responsible Withdrawal from Iraq: Quickly, Carefully, and Generously:
The Necessary Steps for a Responsible Withdrawal from Iraq
I am amazed that the foreign policy community has bought into the idea that the surge is a success. You would think that they would measure success against our objectives and clearly we did not invade Iraq in 2003 so as to reduce violence between Sunnis and Shiites who were not fighting each other at the time.
I don’t see how a pro-Iranian Shiite government implacably opposed to a Baathist Sunni militia (the Awakening) is success,
Sorry Off topic but
How are all former soviet republics doing with huge Muslim populations is Al Quieda active there
President Bush’s goal has been to run out the clock, leaving the problem to his successor. Since the UN resolution expires at the end of December, this will be a problem for Obama.
Good question we didn’t go to protect the civilians and keep order. We claim to have been after WMD. But notice we got the oil.
In your estimation how many of the 18 benchmarks have been ‘met’, I thought the GAO’s report that 9 had been met satisfactorily was most charitable…
I wrote too quickly. I meant for the period after WW2.
it’s hared to argue the point that “strengthening our enemies” was an unintended consequence
there must be enemies for their to be fear, their must be formidable enemies for the defense industry to prosper
I believe the very purpose of war in Iraq was to foster hate, foster unending war and promote middle east unrest
these maniacs from the pnac even published that as their goal
I’m sorry, I cannot believe this result was unintentional, as a matter of fact, Cheney goes on record as saying the Iraq plan was a stunning success
Mr. Ambassador, just getting here and have not read the comments nor, unfortunately your book.
One question I have, it seems quite curious to me, is that everything that could be done to undo the United States has been done. Law has been eviscerated, education is non-existent, political discourse is non-existent, the real economy is an empty carcass, the dollar is at the point of collapse, debts, both public and private are beyond payment for generations; has this been done to destroy the country? maybe to replace it with a corporate fascist state?
This sounds like his life history.
I wonder why this truism wasn’t obvious to so many before now.
I went along with the war not because I saw Saddam as a threat to the US (he clearly was not) but because he was a mass murder second only to Pol Pot. I was wrong but, in my defense, I never imagined the incompetence of the Bush Administration in its handling of Iraq after Saddam’s overthrow.
Mr Galbraith, did you not feel that going after Saddam was premature (a project that could have waited)? Did you have faith in the containment strategy? Did you believe the reports coming from Hans Blix? Weren’t the bulk of Saddam’s Mass Killings behind him?
Was it not more important to pursue Bin Laden?
Welcome, Ambassador Galbraith. If, as you seem to recommend above, the U.S. bases troops in Kurdistan while withdrawing from the rest of Iraq, how will we keep from getting entangled in the territorial disputes over Kirkuk and other areas (perhaps even Mosul)?
Will we wind up being at war with the Baghdad government we helped install??
Hello!
Back in the 1990s, Sect. Cheney once spoke about the potentially disastrous repercussions that could happen if the US deposed SH.
Knowing that the religious fanatics would take the reins, why on earth did the Bush admin depose SH?
The issue is not whether the benchmarks have been met, but whether meeting the benchmarks will alter the situation in Iraq.
The problems in Iraq are fundamental—the Shiite beleif that their majority entitles them to rule, Sunni rejection of Iraq defined as a Shiite state, and Kurdish desire for indepndence. These problems are not resolved by the benchmarks and some benchmarks–such as the recently passed provincial elections law–make the situation worse.
Ambassador Galbraith,
Is the Bush Doctrine of pre-emptive war a euphemism for “aggressive war” — what Nuremberg prosecutor Robert H. Jackson defined as “the supreme international crime?”
Ad Addendum: Dick Cheney on Why Not to Depose SH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csKkdKlLUTc
The answer to all your questions in yes.
I wish I had spoken out against the war, and I would never have embarked on it. However, once Bush decided to do it, I went along with it because I thought Iraqis would be better off once Saddam was gone. And, most Iraqis are much better off. The Kurds have their own state and the Shiites rule instead of being oppressed. The problem is that the US is much worse off.
A competent Administration could have avoided many–but not all– of the adverse consequences to the US.
I agree with the first part of your response, and, the Kurds desiring their own independence, but, I disagree strongly with the latter part that the Sunnis and Shiite are not wanting a whole Iraq… I’ve corresponded with numerous Iraqi’s of both sects and their problem is not the sectarian hatred, but, the various militias that operate under the religious and/or tribal banners… ie, the Badr Brigades, the Mehdi Militia, the Sahwa…etc…!
As we exit Iraq, I think we should have a major emphasis on resolvng the territorial disputes within Iraq, and especially those between arabs and Kurds. If we are to protect the Kurds, then we should use our leverage to help them and Baghdad forge compromises on the territorial issues.
The Kurds do not claim Mosul. They are there because the US asked them to help secure Mosul, since we invaded Iraq with too few troops.
I think one of the problems is that so many in the foreign policy community, having supported the invasion, have so much invested in the Iraq war in terms of professional reputation. Even those who haven’t actively assisted in the “surge is working” farce have not been particularly inclined to call it out.
Amb. Galbraith has been one of the few experts who, after initially supporting the war, have been willing to engage in a forthright critique of why is has failed.
Iraq is better off people are still leaving Iraq in droves.
Right now, Maliki is ramping up for another major push in Ninevah and it’s capital Mosul and told Barzani to withdraw all Peshmerga and Kurdish units in the IA out of Mosul…! Btw, how can we defend the Kurdish terror they’re unleashing on the Christians, Assyrians and Turkmens in and around Kirkuk…?
I agree that both Sunnis and Shiites think of themselves as Iraqi (which the Kurds do not). The problem is that the Shiites and Sunnis do not share a common vision of what Iraq should be.
The Shiites voted for political parties that have militias. Further, the elected Shiite Iraqi government has built the new Iraqi Army and police around the Shiite militias, esp Badr. The state, army and police are all sectarian and now there is a Sunni militia of 100,000 (the awakening) that opposes the state.
Does your book discuss Dawa, the religio-politcial part of PM al-Maliki?
Dawa attacked the U.S. Embassy bombing in Kuwait in 1983, no?
Good evening, Ambassador;
“The problem is that the US is much worse off.”
How shall ‘things’ improve if we try to remain in Iraq?
A some point it must become apparent, that such ’solution’ as may ultimatley be ‘found’ shall not likely be of America’s devise, and probably not to America’s liking.
If our primary concern is ourselves, then the sooner we disengage and offer to help, in other ways, the sooner we shall be able to attend to other, critical matters.
If our concern is other than ourselves, then we must, also, disengage and allow the violence to end of its own momentum.
We delude ourselves if we belief we control events, or can, at this time ’shape’ much of anything, beyond reclaiming our own humanity.
It depends who. Sunnis are leaving but Kurds are returning. There are 2 million Iraqi refugees in Jordan and Syria but they are mostly Sunni. The refugee issue underscores why it is not useful to speak of Iraqis and we should analytically instead focus on Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds.
The Sunnis are worse off but they are just 20% of the population.
There have been reports suggesting that Badr is becoming increasingly independent of SIIC. I’m skeptical of this, given that SIIC’s current head, Abd al-Aziz al-Hakim, was formerly the commander of Badr. What is your view on this, and given that Hakim is reportedly quite ill, what do see for SIIC and Badr in the future?
Mr. Ambassador, my other comment has been asked far more eloquently elsewhere than I am here.
Just what makes any person think that they have a right to be in a country they have 1) assaulted. 2) invaded. 3) occupied by brute terror. 4) commit ongoing acts of genocide, ethnic cleansing, crimes against humanity. 5) unspecified acts of inhumanity. Any pretense concocted to remain in such a country should gain those proposing a charge in the Hague. Do you think there should be any exception?
I came late. The Kurds continue to play games backing separatist movements in Turkey and Iran. They are destabilizing cities like Kirkuk and Mosul. And the idea that they fought on our side in the 2003 war is just plain silly and no reason whatsoever to allow ourselves to get sucked into the region’s ethnic gamesmanship.
I blame it on the fact that the Sunnis boycotted the ‘05 elections thereby, ensuring that the Shi’a virtual complete control of Parliament and all the levers of power, unfortunately, Maliki is pushing the advantage to the utmost… Ironically, Maliki now has a big problem controling the bloc that propelled him to power with the growing schism between his Dawa party and Hakim’s SIIC… I think the Provincial elections are all the more necessary…
Yes, I do discuss this. And Dawa did carry out the Dec 1983 suicide bombing of the US embassy. In 2002, the State Department tried to exclude Dawa from a 2002 Iraqi opposition conference in London b/c of its past ties to terrorism.
Bush and McCain have both embraced Maliki as a great democrat but, in truth, this embrace is another example of substituting wishful thinking for reality. He is a pro-Iranian, authoritarian, sectarian Shiite politician.
Matt,
I hink you are right to be skeptical of a break between SIIC and Badr. Hakim is in the final stages of lung cancer. His son, Ammar, is said to be very capable and will likely replace him. I would guess that he will retain control–or great influence–over Badr.
I want it placed on record that this is perhaps the only time I have ever agreed wholeheartedly with Hugh on anything to do with Irak.
Thanks for your response. Based on your longstanding knowledge of the Kurdish leadership, how effective do you think U.S leverage will be — that is, what limits do you think the Kurds will accept on their territorial claims in exchange for U.S. protection? (Not only within Iraq but, as CTuttle implies in 15 above, with regard to Turkey and Iran.) Do you think they will agree to sign treaties forgoing claims on parts of “greater Kurdistan” in exchange for security?
Conversely, does the U.S. really have the ability to call a prospective Kurdish bluff in this context? Is there any point at which America can walk away (in your view) even if the Kurds don’t back off of their territorial claims, or do we have an obligation to them no matter what?
The administration has never been interested in anything I know about Iraq. No surprise. Our military has been interested perhaps b/c they have to live with the reality of Iraq.
PG: He is a pro-Iranian, authoritarian, sectarian Shiite politician.
Is this not the gravest omission in recent journalism?
To compare the coverage of Dawa in the 1980-1990s thru Lexus-Nexus, etc. with that of today is sickening.
Perhaps it will be one of the greatest tragedies in US history for him to have been **inadvertently** by the Bush admin in direct response to the horrific attacks of 9/11 that were carried out by Sunni religious fanatics.
I think Obama will keep his pledge to get out in 16 months. And, the reason we should get out is that Iraq is a diversion from more serious national security challenges.
Fixed! BTW, the neocon ex-darling Ahmed Chalabi is all of that, too…!
With respect Mr. Ambassador,
I’d like to repeat my earlier question, @ 43:
Much as later OLC/AG opinions rendered the Geneva Conventions “quaint,” paving the way to torture, wasn’t the invasion of Iraq, in fact, a violation of established international law?
i’m curious about two things:
1) how do you rank the top five mass murderers and how many deaths do you attribute to each?
2) how many times have invasions and occupations been undertaken for “humanitarian” reasons in say the last 50 years (or pick another time frame you think is more appropriate) and how many of those would you call successful and why?
thanks for being here today and taking our questions.
I assume it was planned but I don’t think it presages a major expansion of the war or even that it will worsen our relations with Syria. The Syrians, like everyone else, are waiting for the next President.
Well, it is good to know that there appears to be some ‘reason’ why we should ‘get out’.
How widely spread, Ambassador, would you consider acceptance of that reason to be among whatever passes as considered ‘leadership’ in America these days?
The “surge as success” is a classic example of the construction of a political narrative. Republicans throw it out months after the initial announcement and then start repeating it incessantly. Media don’t look back to that announcement and fact check or call Republicans on it. Instead they start repeating it as well. Democrats do much the same. Voila suddenly you not only have a narrative. You have the dominant narrative. By this point it seems nitpicking for anybody to actually say well this is all BS. We have even gotten to the point that candidates like Clinton and Obama sort of admitted the surge was a success (certainly not that it was a failure) before going on to point out that it had in fact not achieved its goal, i.e. it failed.
Yes, I am shocked too.
Do you think that the US will ever have `to change’ the now burgeoning regime in Iraq that it helped father?
Will Iraq ever be a loyal ally to the USA?
Is it now?
There are approximately 15 million Kurds in Turkey, and apparently many of them would like to live in a Kurdish homeland. Is there some way that they could have a semi-autonomous homeland in Iraq without posing a long-term threat to Turkey?
Cheney and the neo-cons in the Bush Administration spent all their time making the political case at home for a war that they lost sight of the consequences. It was a tragic case of ideology trumping analysis and strategy.
What continues to exasperate me, Hugh, is the constant refrain that it has reduced the violence levels… OK, maybe it did reduce it from the peaks of ‘06 &’07, but, was their any suicide bombings in Baghdad prior to our invasion…?
I suppose I would like to know how democratic you think Kurdistan is. Is it or is it still pretty much run by the Barzani and Talabani families?
The Kurds did fight on our side in 2003, taking more casualties than any other ally. But, the main reason to keep a few troops in Kurdistan is that the region is peaceful, stable, prosperous and the most democratic part of Iraq. We should want to keep it that way.
So you would argue, then, from Bush and Cheney’s view, that the ‘war’ in Iraq has been of no value?
I suggest that it has repaid them quite handsomely, so far.
The actual ‘cost’ to either has been minimal.
Mr. Ambassador,
There is a differing possibility equally probable (from your title) “How the actions and lies in Iraq have so weakened the US almost to a point of irrelevance in world councils”.
The Sunnis did not boycott the Dec 05 elections and are proportionately represented in the national parliament. The provincial elections may not be held before the 09 national elections b/c of ongoing disputes among the three groups.
I think this was the only good sign they had so they redefined “success” in those terms.
The hallmark of the Bush Administration is never considering consequences in the first place. As an Adminstration official was reported to have told Ron Suskind:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10.....ssuserland
I have a whole chapter that addresses the question of Turkey and the Iraqi Kurds. The two sides have more in common than most people think.
Ha! I’m going to be quoting that.
Recasting US goals in Iraq, from creating democracy to “reducing violence” was essential to selling the surge narrative. And violence has been reduced — General Petraeus noted in a recent speech that Iraq has gone from 180 attacks a day in mid-2007 to 25 attacks a day now. The idea that 25 attacks a day represents “success” in any real sense — let alone in terms of the war’s original goals — is, of course, nonsense, but to an American public exhausted of the war it’s pretty attractive.
It is ‘peaceful, stable and prosperous’ only because it’s run by a military dictatorship, where nepotism and corruption run rampant…!
Yes. I discuss this point at length in the Turkey chapter of the book. Thse days, the Kurdish movement in Turkey is about civil rights not autonomy or separatism.
Unintended consequences usually aren’t unintended. We just didn’t know the real intentions.
Well said, Matt! ;-)
MD: And violence has been reduced — General Petraeus noted
Was there any mentioning whatsoever of the reduction of violence on account of ethnic cleansing?
is there any independent verification for these numbers or do you think Petraeus is a reliable source? also, are these attacks against US forces and if so, are they representative of the level of violence experience by Iraqis?
Now that (according to some reports) upwards of one million people are dead; Baghdad is walled off into sectarian enclaves; and something like five million people are either “internally displaced” or have fled the country . . . All this in a country with a population of about twenty-eight million people.
Of course, this is why there have been so many roadblocks thrown up to provincial elections. Shi’ites don’t want to cede any power in mixed provinces. These elections could have and should have been held a year ago. The idea that they won’t happen until 2009 shows how uncompromising the Shia dominated central government is, how uninterested it is in democracy, and how much it wants to hold on to power, any power, no matter what the cost.
Not irrelevance, but the war has damaged American leadership. The Bush administration and the neo-cons assume that military power and ecomomic srength insures leadership, but it turns out you also need to go in a direction that others will follow.
Not to mention the 5 million orphans and the one million widows admitted to by the green zone government.
Ironically, the charts Betrayus used in the Dog and Pony show actually tracked the results of the ethnic cleansing that occurred in Baghdad…
And yet in 5 1/2 years this has led to what? How many weeks has it been since Turkey bombed sites in Iraqi Kurdistan?
I don’t agree with your characterization of the Kurdish leaders. But, even if it were true, we would still have an interest in preserving Kurdistan’s stability, if only for the sake of the 4 million who live there.
The bombing is in very remote areas that are not controlled by the KRG.
I think it is understood by what will be our leadership next Jan 20.
I touched on the Dog and Pony show here…
I don’t know that Petraeus has ever officially acknowledged the extent to which the sectarian cleansing of many of Baghdad’s formerly mixed neighborhoods has contributed to the drop in violence, but I think the general consensus is that the completion of the cleansing did play a significant part.
I sincerely hope you and I are both correct in sharing that thought, Ambassador.
;~D
If the Kurds can’t control their own territory and it is not that a big a territory (30,000 sq. mi.), how or why would Turkey enter into an agreement with them?
Unintended consequences usually aren’t- Sorry that came out too abruptly and I pounded the wrong key. The question that keeps bothering me is that so often consequences are foreseen and publicly announced…In the face of contrary information the stubborn insistence and deliberate disregard must be motivated by something strong like intention, desire. Do you see this in a particular case? the Iraq war?
My professor father always said the busing solution for the problem of poorer minority public schools schools was totally wrong and predicted the unintended consequences we still live with and only limited progress solving the problem. The problem was schools and school funding not gas and auto industry. Fuzzy thinking led to “unintended” consequences and no solution (another unintended consequence?)
Neither Bush nor McCain have any thought of changing the pro-Iranian religious regime that Bush inadvertently installed in Baghdad, helping its cadres take over the Iraqi army and police. In fact, I don’t think Bush and his team realize that this is what they did.
Removing Iraq’s ruling theocrats by force would be costly and unlikely to succeed. We are consigned to live with what Bush wrought.
As we come to the end of this Book Salon,
Ambassador, Thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending the afternoon with us discussing your book.
Matt, Thank you very much for Hosting this Book Salon.
Everyone,if you haven’t bought this great book, there is a link above.
Thanks all.
Mr. Ambassador,
Sidestepping my repeated (#43 & #67) question regarding the legality of the invasion, was the de-nationalization of Iraq’s oil reserves among Bush/Cheney’s “true” ambitions for the war?
BTW: Another excellent FDL Salon!
These have been some great questions and comments and they came fast and furious. I am sorry I did not have time to answer all of you.
Fair enough, but, I’ve seen and heard numerous credible reports saying otherwise…! I don’t see them in immediate harm from Turkey and Iran if they merely stay in the Iraqi confederation, and, Maliki isn’t prone to attack them either as long as they don’t try to annex Kirkuk and some of the other northern provinces!
Mr. Ambassador, looking to the future, great swathes of South America are throwing off the yoke of IMF,WB, etc. and developing alternative economic models. The Chicago School of Economics is bankrupt. Almost every body of existing wealth in the world has been stolen, there exist few remaining treasures to be usurped most of which are highly guarded. The worlds economic resources are plundered. There is little further to be gained, certainly not enough to fuel the corporate greed necessary.
If you were ever curious what the people were thinking when they cut down the last tree on Easter Island (Re: Diamond), you are going to be experiencing those thoughts shortly. It will be a completely different economic model that will be required if people are to survive. This is going to take out the hyper-rich as well.
Thank you so much, Ambassador Galbraith, it’s been an honor to have you here.
Yes, thanks for coming to the lake today.
Mahalo(thank you), for being here, Ambassador! It was a real pleasure to have you here! Good luck with your book!
I would agree. I would also question why the Kurdish leadership has been more interested in extending its power over other areas than in developing those it supposedly controls and why it hasn’t tried to defuse tensions with both Turkey and Iran, instead of stoking them. Stability is not achieved by pissing off all your neighbors.
Another EPU’d entry
Yes Mr. Ambassador, thank you for coming and for the great discussions. I will try to find your book and obtain.
All the best……..
“I don’t think Bush and his team realize … what they did”.
Perhaps, on any level?
So?
Bush and Company learned nothing, have, apparently, lost nothing, and being held in no way ‘accountable’ for what they haven’t realized they have done, allowing them to deny that they’ve done anything at all, other than ‘believe’ they were doing ‘good’ or even ‘God’s work’, will, doubtless serve as ‘example’ for other to try the same ‘game’ once again.
Somebody has made a lot of money out of this. And that fact is not lost on those who admire wealth or power.
Ambassador, do you think that the nation has learned anything through the past almost-eight years?
It would be a shame to think not.
Barzani has just got back from a three day trip to Iran and sat down with Ahminejad and others… There is a lot of dialogue going on!