On one level, the study Reuters reports is real news: extensive direct correlations of BPA levels and disease in humans. On another level, the fact the study’s results are "news" to the EPA so frustrates me I could just scream.
In the bookshelf nearest me sits a copy of Theo Colburn, Dianne Dumanoski, and John Peterson Myers’ Our Stolen Future. Pages 130-135 describe how BPA is the prototype of a class of toxic chemicals known as endocrine disruptors.
"Endocrine disruptors" are chemicals that mimic the body’s natural hormones, and send false signals to developing and adult bodies. "Endocrine" is medical-speak for "hormone system". Ain’t medical terminology grand?
Endocrine disruptors are the toxic substances that:
- have been linked to miscarriages,
Ain’t endocrine disruptors grand?
Endocrine disruptors are old news. In 1998, I joined a group of activists who wrote and persuaded the LA Unified School District to adopt an "Integrated Pest Management Policy" that used the precautionary principle to protect LAUSD students and staff from endocrine disruptors (and other toxic substances). The LAUSD — responsiible for 750,000 students — adopted that policy in the spring of 1999.
We used Our Stolen Future as a reference. As the group’s medical consultant, I used the information Theo Colburn and her colleagues assembled to persuade the LA School Board to protect students and staff against endocrine disruptors.
In my paperback copy of Our Stolen Future, the paged are yellowed: it was printed eleven years ago. The hardbound version was printed in 1996.
Oh – and the first research showing BPA’s endocrine disruptor activity at astonishingly low concentrations…concentrations we are are all exposed to, often even before we are born? It was published in 1993.
Fifteen years before the Bushie FDA told us the endocrine disruptor BPA is "safe at current exposure levels".
Old news, right?
Watching the corporatists strangle public safety regulations is bad for my blood pressure. Sucks for the rest of us, too.
Study links common plastics chemical to heart disease
The chemical bisphenol A, or BPA, is widely used in plastic food and beverage containers and in the coating of food cans.
[snip]
The study by British researchers in the Journal of the American Medical Association found that among 1,455 U.S. adults, those with the highest levels of BPA were more likely to have heart disease, diabetes and liver-enzyme abnormalities than those with the lowest levels.
U.S. Food and Drug Administration officials said they would review the new findings, which were not taken into consideration when the agency issued a draft conclusion in August that BPA is safe at current exposure levels.
[snip]
"There are things you can do if you choose to reduce your level of bisphenol A," [FDA official] Tarantino said. "But we have not recommended that anyone change their habits or change their use of any of these products because right now we don’t have the evidence in front of us to suggest that people need to."
BPA is used to make polycarbonate plastic, a clear shatter-resistant material in products ranging from baby and water bottles to plastic eating utensils to sports safety equipment and medical devices.
It also is used to make durable epoxy resins used as the coating in most food and beverage cans and in dental fillings. BPA can mimic the hormone estrogen in the body.
LEACHING INTO LIQUIDS
People can consume BPA when it leaches out of plastic into liquid such as baby formula, water or food inside a container. Some retailers and manufacturers are moving away from products with BPA. Canadian officials concluded BPA was harmful.
[snip]
The 25 percent of people with the highest levels of bisphenol A in their bodies were more than twice as likely to have heart disease, including heart attacks or type 2 diabetes, compared to the 25 percent with the lowest levels.
At the FDA panel meeting, several scientists and activists said the FDA ignored animal studies finding health concerns and some called for it to be banned in food container products.
Senior Democratic U.S. Rep. John Dingell of Michigan, who heads the House Committee on Energy and Commerce, said the FDA has "focused myopically on industry-funded research."
Tarantino said nothing was ignored but industry-funded studies finding no harm were important in the conclusions. The panel is expected to present its advice to the FDA next month.
What a group of community activists and the massive LAUSD accomplished in less than fifteen months, the EPA hasn’t been willing to do in the last fifteen years. Fortunately for Canadians, their nation’s regulators actually work to protect the public, and moved to ban use of the toxin in baby bottles. In April. Five months ago.
Here in the wholly owned corporatist subsidy we call the United States:
Tarantino, head of the FDA’s office of food additive safety, said there is talk of government scientists doing their own BPA safety studies, but that could take years to conduct.
Makes ya proud to be an American, doesn’t it? Knowing "we’re number one" just makes me feel all tingly and safer already. Don’t you?
Bon appetit.
(Kirk is on holiday and will not be able to join in the comments.)
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Kirk!! Zed??
Joe? Joe the plumber? Are you here, Joe?
When ya get here Pups be sure and Digg this great post on BPA! an insidious chemical that is already in your body thanks to our great chemical companies!
anyone watching Rachael Maddow? Obi~1 is up on FIRST!
Who?? Oh you mean JoeMcain the plumber… Last I saw he was missing and John wasd looking for him… Maybe he was busy finding an agent!!
JOE! Your candidate’s calling. He needs your endorsement back!
Thank you Dr. Murphy. One more reason to continue to persuade my mate to STOP WITH THE PEPSI’S!
No disrespect meant for the off topic comments.
ty!
My oldest granddaughter has started going through puberty starting when she was 8 years old…… It probably is a mix of these chemicals…..
OT Rachel is all over early voting on her show tonight and says that Obama’s senior is acutely aware of everything that is happening on the voting scene.
Maybe this is what’s wrong with Washington. It has been known for years that there are hermaphroditic fish (bass) in the upper reaches of the Potomac River in West Virginia. It can only get worse as it goes down stream to the water treatment plant for DC.
Like all non-defense government agencies since Reagan became president, the FDA has been neutered. They are tasked with maintaining the appearance of protecting Americans without actually imposing or enforcing regulations on corporations.
If you don’t mind, Dr. Kirk, can you save me the time of reading the links, and tell me how many people were involved in the studies, what was the time frame of the studies, and with what level of statistical confidence was the conclusion reached?
Thank you Dr. Murphy. One more reason to continue to persuade my mate to STOP WITH THE PEPSI’S!
Whuh? I live on Pepsi’s. this is not good.
Kirk, please tell me that the badness of my massive Pepsi intake is offset by my brilliant tactical maneuver of simultaneously ingesting (organically grown) vitamin-filled, ultra-nutritious Double-Stuff Oreos.
I’m good, right?
I’ve heard the increasingly early onset of puberty attributed to various factors, including childhood obesity. Not suggesting that has any relevance in this instance. Heck, I’m 47 and still waiting…
one of the most important threads ever
thanx doctor
About 15 years ago I averaged over two packs of cigarettes and a 12-pack of beer every day. Bouts of flu got passed around my coworkers while I went 2 1/2 years without so much as a sniffle. I told them the trick is to bludgeon your immune system into compliance with your wishes.
To be fair, I gave up both of those vices long ago and am still relatively cold and flu resistant, so I guess I’m just lucky in that regard.
On a related front … for history buffs or others who might (possibly) be interested … in unimportant minutia …
President Carter’s 1978 Executive Order No. 12044 requiring regulations to be written in plain English was revoked in 1981 by President Reagan’s Executive Order No. 12291 …
All things in moderation.
I’ll leave you to prepare you own summaries: thanks for the apperance of interest in the topic.
I am amused: Wall Street “economics” has been shown to be social theories that uphold catastrophic social and political constructs.
I hope all who live comfortably on the resources and riches they received from their work on Wall Street show the same desire for rigorous scrutinty of the social consensus that brought them comfortable lives (and the consequences of their participation in those actions) I discern in your request for information about Bisphenol A toxicity.
lololol
omg
if you EVER get good news on constant perpetual Pepsi’s, please PLEASE,
LET ME KNOW. too funnnay jayt!
Nahant! Good zedding!
Health is sooo much more determined by genes than anything else. Lifestyle is an important, but distant, second. And medical care, with some specific exceptions, almost irrelevant.
Thanks for the link, dugg.
AFAIK, two reporters at the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, Meg Kissinger and Susanne Rust reignited this story last December. They read all the technical documents and showed that everyone who wasn’t paid off by the Chemical industry agreed BP-A was extremely hazardous.
Here’s a 2008 timeline of recent events:
April 14: FDA convenes a task force on the safety of bisphenol A.
• Aug. 15: The task force releases its draft saying that bisphenol A is safe.
• Sept. 3: The National Toxicology Program releases its report finding some concern for the chemical’s effects on children, infants and fetuses.
• Sept. 16: An FDA subcommittee meets to consider whether to amend the task force draft.
• Oct. 15: A congressional committee launches an investigation of possible conflicts of interest after the Journal Sentinel reveals a $5 million donation to the subcommittee chairman’s science center by an advocate for bisphenol A.
• Oct. 18: Canada declares bisphenol A toxic and announces a move to ban the sale, import and advertising of baby bottles and other children’s products containing the chemical.
From the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel:
Plastics industry behind FDA research on bisphenol A, study finds
For those interested in more, follow the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel link back to many more stories.
The state of Michigan called Gelman, the guy who just gave $5 million to a scientist with instructions to make BP-A appear safe, the second biggest polluter in the state.
Maybe Pepsi still packages some of its product in glass bottles? (I don’t know)
You make assumptions about my Wall St. career that show you are totally ignorant of my comments here.
Hey! Are you sure you’re here?
I distinctly remember reading that Kirk was on ‘vacation’ and would not be here to “join in’ …
Good to ’see’ ya Doc!
;~D
I told them the trick is to bludgeon your immune system into compliance with your wishes.
gotta admit that if from this point forward, my body gets smoked by any natural, or even semi-natural cause, after *years* of full-goose-gonzo, highly imaginative and massive self-induced abuse, I could only laugh at the irony….
Per Kirk’s link above (A major study links a chemical used in many plastic products including baby bottles ….) that’s the front line right now, afaik. If you have kids or grandkids drinking baby formula, you want to make sure they’re not drinking it out of plastic baby bottles lined with BP-A.
There are lots of stories like that. I watched an episode of Frontline a few years ago that talked about how the Carter Administration was making good progress investigating who was responsible for the rape and murder of a group of nuns in El Salvador. When Reagan took office, his administration shut down the investigation. At last report, the two generals now known to have ordered the killings were retired and living in Florida.
Sickened by the undeserved lauding of St. Ronnie at the time of his passing, I wrote a letter to the editor of the local paper in which I remarked that Reagan’s chief accomplishment had been that he made people feel good about America while simultaneously undermining everything that IS good about America.
good evening, Dr. Murphy
Dugg it
Well said.
Wholly incorrect.
Here’s a refernce: The Secret History Of The War On Cancer.
The assertion
“Health is sooo much more determined by genes than anything else. Lifestyle is an important, but distant, second. And medical care, with some specific exceptions, almost irrelevant”
would be risible if they consequnces of belief in this fallacy were not so catastrophic.
On the simplest level, people who move from indigenous/traditional cultures to the US (and adopt US mainstream dietary practices) will – by the third generation – show the same elevated levels of cardiovascular disease and idbaetes that has become normative among Americans. The outcome shows up among folks from indigenous cultures who are descended solely from members of that culture: the genes they received are the same genes held among the indigenous population from which they are descended and their immediate ancestors emigrated.
This repeated and heavily documented outcome wholly belies your fallacious construct.
So too does the fact that the age-adjusted incidence for a variety of malignancies has increased among the generations of Americans born after WWII. THe gene pool (among Americans born to families whose ancestors were here for some generations) did not change: the environment the genes were exposed to changed.
Did the work on Wall Street include work for any of the megacorps or industries that profited from release of the toxins whose role was falsely dismissed in the comment I’m repsonding to?
Or to put it another way: what is your motive in seeking to mislead our readers in such an egregious and transparent fashion?
Joe The Unlicensed Plumber Who Is Not Trying To Buy A Company That Makes Over $250,000 A Year And Who Is Not Going To Pay More Under Barack Obama’s Tax Relief Plan:
Joe, I know plumbers. Plumbers are my friends. You, sir, are no plumber. You, sir, are a fraud.
Yeppers!
And, good on ya, ratfood.
St. Ronnie, the plague that keeps taking, taking, taking.
Wonder what the ‘death toll’ ultimately will be?
My husband died two years after giving up smoking for over 40 years, some of those 4 packs/day. An autopsy was required owing to the violent cause of death. Turns out his lungs were pink & healthy.
The intent of the comment is NOT to suggest unhealthy lifestyles are OK, but rather how much more important genetic influences are. It’s always better to have good genes & good health practices, but sometimes your genes let you get away with some practices that might otherwise be deathly.
OTOH, if you are not blessed with good genes, better practice healthy lifestyles.
And finally, good genes & clean living can put you in mental deterioration long before your heart stops. My father’s fate. Worst end, IMO.
Was aware of asking Q. Wonder how that’s misleading in a transparent way. Transference?
Um…er…
You’re good…but the diet might need some work ;)
I can’t help but wonder who profits most from the continued use of BPA? I’ve said for a long time that if you want to know the true motivation behind any government policy, figure out who stands to profit from it. Somebody ALWAYS profits.
i’m going to disagree with you on that one. don’t think genetics can explain these differences
Hi DW – schedule cahnge – but I’m happy to be here with y’all!
P.S. You might want to check out my comments on this thread.
http://firedoglake.com/2008/10…..chair-120/
I’ll go look for the relevant ones & post the links in another comment.
please don’t.
Aloha, Doc! Thanks for the enlightening post!
Um, I didn’t say good genes explained all medical problems, just that they are the most important determinant of medical problems.
For Dr. Kirk,
Here’s one comment of the kind that I was referring to in 42.
http://firedoglake.com/2008/10…..nt-1698559
The following is a statement, not a question:
And Dr. Kirk,
Here’s the last relevant comment
http://firedoglake.com/2008/10…..nt-1698565
Which, BTW, includes a hint at my attitude about much economics research.
On the other foot, if eCAHN is correct then health care is a silly, frivolous waste and hardly worth a moment of our time to consider.
Wisdom suggests that choosing one’s forebears on the basis of wealth and health is the most important decision any of us can make.
Hope y’all was on the ball.
‘Tain’t no second chances unless reincarnation comes into play.
Guess I was a dummy. NOW I get it.
Dayam, eCAHN where was ya when I coulda used yer advice?
;~D
my bad. will restate: i don’t think genes can explain most of the differences in linked reference (2x diff in life expectancy).
That was not my query to you, but a reply to another commenter with an entirely different take from yours. Taking comments out of context, much?
Um…er…
You’re good…
thanks, Kirk. I try to stay ahead of the curve. *g*
…but the diet might need some work ;)
true. I’m trying to figure out a way to conveniently include copious amounts of Cheez-Whiz into said diet. I figure with all the preservatives in that stuff, I’ll never die….
Studies among some indiegenous communities demonstrate falling ages for onset of puberty and rising rates of infertility/genital abnormalities all correlate with increased blood levels of endocrine disruptor chemicals among the affected families.
You guys looking for a magic medical bullet if you got bad genes? Your genes are what they are. My point is to be aware of that for better or worse, and do your best with or without good genes.
Got your point. I was assuming culture was held constant, as the subject of the post was what bad environmental chemicals could do to people in our culture. I should have made my assumption explicit rather than making an Ass Out of Me.
Dow Chemical along with a lot of other members who pay dues to the American Chemistry Council. BP-A is about a $6 billion dollar year industry.
Maybe the trouble is that you’re limiting your intake to the oral route. You’ll be able to input more if you keep all your avenues open…
eCAHN is one of the good people.
out of line kirk.
while i may disagree with several of ecahn’s comments, i also know from experience here that they come from a natural (and imo all too rare) skeptism and no malicious motive – the questions you are being asked are not due to the topic, they are the kind of questions ecahn frequently asks. your conclusions are based on too small a sample size. i beg you to take questions seriously and consider possibility of good intentions.
And since it’s used in plastic, also linked to Big Oil?
You might end up with some serious constipation from all that cheez-whiz…! ;-)
Dr. Kirk,
To answer your Q about whether I ever did anything on Wall St. to directly benefit the corps that did negative things, the answer is no.
I was a macroeconomist, forecasting U.S. GDP, inflation, corporate profits, interest rates, etc. I did not deal with the micoreconomic level of individual corporations.
Reading Devra Davis’ Secret History Of The War On Cancer, and Theo Colburn’s Our Stolen Future, I couldn’t help wondering if the endocrine disruptor pollution in DC drinking water was Gaia’s idea of karma.
Is it in your esteemed opinion that we’re in a world of hurt, economically…? ;-)
now i’m in wag (wild-ass-guessing) territory – but i’m going to go out on a limb and say it probably all matters. some things can more or less be compensated for, others not so much. bottom line though, when it comes to the potential for health or environmental damage – policy wise i go with the precautionary principle which means i want convincing evidence that the material is safe before it is used instead of the alternative (don’t know it’s name) which is that convincing evidence is needed before restricting use.
I’m only funnin’ ya eCAHN, but genes is kinda like time-bombs, ya never know, fer absolute certain, when they might go ‘off’.
An don’t fergit, even the best genes can get screwed over by environmental ‘excesses’ beyond our personal control, not to mention zapped into ‘altered states’or ‘mutation’ by stray ‘rays’.
Merci beaucoup.
My bad is challenging people who don’t want to be. Sometimes I’m right & sometimes I wrong, but if you don’t ask, you’ll never know.
does a healthy dose of Cheeze Whiz obviate the need for Cheetos in the diet?
our right wing blogger friends might benefit from that knowledge
questions all good. need more of them.
I beg to differ,
eCAHN is among the BEST of people.
She’s one of us, ain’t she?
;~D
I think it’s all the Kool Aid they dunk those cheetos into that’s addled their brains…! ;-)
You betcha. And it was predictable. Even though I wasn’t on Wall St. when it happened (left at peak of tech bubble in 2/00), I would certainly have been writing about it if I were still there. For example, shortly after Greenspan cut rates & otherwise bailed out LTCM in 9/98, I wrote a report titled, “Beginning the Next Bubble.”
Good question, I don’t know. I think there are plastic alternatives to BP-A, which would use the same amount of oil. In the short run, I think a lot of people are turning to glass, so in that sense, your concerns may be right on target.
My guess is that the only ones who are really putting up cash (my guess is that Charles Gelman was a simply a pass-through)are the plastics manufacturers.
i’d suggest adding dow to the axis of evil, but they’re already on my list.
With the (then) soon to be enacted revision of Glass-Steagal, all but ensured that bubble, eh?
Beyond a shadow of a dow-t!
look out, punaise. you got competition!
Type I and Type II errors. Threading the needle not easy. You have to ask the counterfactual of what developed country (making my assumption explicit) life would have been like without the miracle of chemistry, i.e. what lifestyles would have been like if we had used the precautionary model that you espouse.
Not pretending to know the As. Just asking the Qs.
Think that not conducting long term studies on chemicals is a big problem. Not how I would run the system if I were queen. But we don’t live in the ideal world.
Also caveated my comment about the minor contribution of medical care with the phrase “certain notable exceptions.” Without enumerating them all, they would certainly include antibiotics, innoculations, and a few other simple “medical” things, like clean water, that would make life expectancy in poor countries much better, and life experience too.
a couple of links only vaguely related to the topic of kirk’s post, but maybe of interest to him and/or others here. both are from waxman’s committee (house government oversight and reform):
Internal FDA Documents Show Career Staff Objected to Agency’s New Stance on Preemption
Chairman Waxman Releases GAO Report on Federal Oversight of Part D Drug Pricing
What? you being queen? ;-)
No way!
I be in awe of the great punaise.
Only make little giggles, punaise make guffaws, ROFL, spewing drink on keyboard funnies …
Evening, all-
selise, wrt Bhopal, did you ever hear about this? Full-contact activism.
A is OT, but here it is in short version: Fundamental of U.S. economy is consumer. Fundamental of consumer is growth in real wages/worker. That only happens when labor is so scarce that corps are forced to bid workers away from each other (unemployment rates around or below 4%) or union power. Absent that, consumer spending can increase only with rising employment or rising consumer debt. The former was the Clinton economic good times. But that’s over. So only rising borrowing can underpin rising consumer spending. So FRB pursues easy monetary policy to make that happen. That causes bubbles and crashes.
Forecast uncertain. Is the housing bubble/crash the last that the monetary/fiscal policy tools can underpin or is there yet one more before the gig is up?
Hi All,
Back from the phone banking – still getting ready for GOTV
yes, I was only kidding you (and him). I, too, acknowledge the greatness of the master.
When I was in High School I had a job at an Arby’s (talk about a toxic environment) in close proximity to the county fairgrounds. Every summer during the fair, Arby’s ran a special in which customers who ordered 3 sandwiches received a free (glass) quart bottle of Pepsi. A quart bottle of Pepsi dropped from a flimsy plastic tray would disintegrate on impact and cover about two-thirds of floor in the dining area with a sticky, glass-strewn mess. Almost inevitably, just as I was rinsing the glass out of the mop from the last cleanup I’d hear the sound of another one getting dropped. Good times.
it was a good one, though :)
Being queen is actually the last thing I desire. Used that phrase today because an email partner used it in another context (what she would do wrt voting machines if she were queen), and somehow it seemed to fit the Q at hand.
Truly so, neurophius.
Truly so …
Blessed be we when punaise let loose.
(Sometimes ribs hurt from laffs too much)
Thanks, neuro …
;`D
Aloha, Ron! The Yes Men rawk! I loved their ’skit’ at the Energy symposium in Calgary…!
CTut;
Any improvement or ‘progress’ on home-front?
Christy is upstairs. But is she awake?
good point about weighing the benefits. next time i advocate for the precautionary principle, i’ll try to remember to use it.
the problem, i think, is that a lot of the time we just don’t have evidence on which to judge. and by using the precautionary principle as a default policy position we create incentives (i love those incentives!) for interested parties to help fund some of the studies. of course, the $ needs to go through a blind agency to prevent the kinds of abuses that booradley described above.
also, this does not preclude the use of the miracles of chemistry, it only delays their use. imo, the threading of the needle is to weight the amount of evidence to be required.
I’m quite comfortable with my questions – others’ mileage may vary. I’m quite comfortable with that, too.
David Michaels visited us in Book Salon to discuss his work: Doubt Is Their Product. To sum up, the work discusses how toxic industries consciously imitate Big Tobacco’s successful tactics in creating public doubt about overwhelming findings their products were toxic.
THe toxic products producers regularly and predictably use the tactic of raising narrow technical questionsa bout experimental design and statistics to disrupt and obscure general discussions among the lay public about overwhemling findings showing the prodcuts’ toxicity.
I question that tactic and the motives of all who engage in it whenever I see it.
Promise.
I also question the motive of anyone who makes the assertion
in a discussion about environmental toxicants. With respect to rising rates of childhood malignancy and genital abnormalities, the assertion is a bald-faced deception: all kids get genes from their parents. As the human gene pool hasn’t significantly changed, kids biorn now gdet their genes from the same global pool their grandparents gnes came from.
Whatever explains rising rates of childhood malignancies (as well as neurodevelopmental disorders), human gentics fails the test. Unless one postulates alien insemination (or damge of human genes through environmental factors).
When tens of millions (hundreds of millions?) in product slaes are at stake, I’ll question the motives of anyone who brings forth the discredited genetic “explanation” to place environmental exposure secondary to gnetic factors in the causation of the toxic consequnces observed across many species exposed to the known endocrine disruptor Bisphenol A.
Diverting the topic from the product’s inherent toxicity (as evinced across many species) and onto diffences in human gentics was yet another Big TObacco “doubt” strategy.
Every time I see that tactic used in lay discussions of widespread environmental toxins, I immediately question the motive for doing so.
Who benefits from changing the broadly accesable topic of the toxic effects of profitable industries?
Small world.
Union Carbide lead lawyer for Bhopal was prez of my coop board in NYC when we successfully overturned the board. Nasty SOB as you might imagine.
I think that’s a fair assessment.
FWIW, my guess is that a large percentage of Dow’s shareholders are mutual funds. It’s another case of “we have met the enemy and they are us.“
For me the FDA is the real villian. It was their job to keep the playing field level for manufacturers and protect the public health. Instead they cashed paychecks from the taxpayers only to sell out the public health.
I was only teasing, M’dear! In your earlier comment you said…
You left of that the latter was Shrub’s economic policy…! ;-)
somehow i had missed that “yes men” action. thanks for the link!
Greetings, CT! They stomp…and I’ve seen very few things funnier than the SurvivaBall…
Dya think? And why dya spose that is? And why do you think I added that it is a tragedy that we do not do long term statistically significant studies? Not on the corp side, but also not on the alarmist side. I want to know the evidence. Duh.
well i disagree with you and will challenge you in return when you confuse honest q’s with the actions of big tobacco.
I said
So I blamed FRB for bubbles & crashes. IMO that is more important than W’s redistribution of income to the weathly, but YMMV, and W certainly contributed.
Geez, want a complete economic thesis in every comment, especially after a bottle of whine. *g*
I know the reason I like to know the methodology is so I can try to anticipate how industry shills will try to undermine it,
Ah, the ’spirited’ discussion mode.
;~D
but when we don’t have sufficient info – then what do we do? how do we devise policies that will get us more info? we all want to know the evidence – but should we open the barn door before or after we get it? i’m in favor of after in large part because it looks to me like when we go with before, it seems to to take an awfully long time to get the evidence… and maybe if we go with after instead, we’ll get more data sooner.
Yes please. A detailed analysis of complex issues, in a very few sentences of very simple words, if that’s not too much trouble.
Thanks.
*g*
i’m off.. have a great evening all…
Right on. The most important Qs are sample size, length of study (since many chemical influences show up only after a long exposure), and statistical significance. Keep insisting on answers. It’s the weak point of medical studies.
Decision making under uncertainty. Many PhD theses on this subject. Ya want simple answers to complex Qs? *g*
G’nite, selise.
I keep trying & trying. Not because I care about you all but because I want to understand it myself. But you’ll just have to wait if you’re relying on me to figure it out! *g*
‘night, selise!
Recent study stated that PET plastic bottles leak toxins 23 times as fast into warm/hot liguids as cold.
Such as: Baby Formula (Which should be illegal. Mother’s milk is best)
plastic water bottle left in car in sun…
If there is one thing we have learned under Retghuglian rule it is that ”People” are inconsequential to them. Unless of course you are a Big Corporation or have lotsa money well now they will take care of you for the right donation to their reelection. Oh and whats a little chemical in your body? You don’t matter so it doesn’t matter just as long as the Big corporations are making profit and they donate to their ree4lection.
It is time we get Obama to rescind all those presidential orders that directly effect the environment and conversely our health!!
I will be very happy to see all the companies that pollute and desecrate our environment are forced to pay for all the damage they have caused!!
eCAHN;
I may ‘fun’ with you at times, but you and selise keep things on the ‘up and up’ when necessary and I wouldn’t want it ANY other way.
Much appreciation.
Thank you, sincerely.
David
I rely on myself to figure things out, based on my experience and limited education..but that requires tapping many sources, and I consider your questions, musings, and analysis to be a very valuable one. Along with Krugman, Roubini (sp), and Ian.
Thanks for your help, always.
I must second that emotion…! *g*
No, the most important question imo is who funded the study.
WRT BP-A, the only studies that don’t find it lethal are funded by the people who sell it. Everyone else has extremely serious concerns. See the
Milwaukee Journal Sentinel’s archive.
Milwaukee Journal Sentinel did an outstanding job of summarizing the relevant scientific studies.
Right. Who funded the study comes before my criteria.
Oh, but a precautionary tale. Just because big chem corps don’t fund it doesn’t make it so. Hard to do, but must be equally skeptical of both sides.
the soul of objective analysis.
The hardest thing!
Okey dokey. Off to beddy bie. Gnite all.
‘night, eCAHN.
-Best to you.
My bro has been telling me about this for months…
Doctors Say BPA Shows Up Too Often in Diabetics and Heart Patients
It is technically impossible to practice “moderation” when you have no idea what you are consuming.
Well now, that was extremely unpleasant.
This thread is a prime example of why I don’t come around here very much. The cliquishness is pretty ugly. •••EDITED IN MODERATION••• I’d be surprised if you see Dr. Murphy around again and it would be hard to blame him.
A couple years ago FDL was a lot better place and now when I look I see just a small circle of people who have driven everyone else away. An echo chamber. Congratulations.
~~~ModNote: Edited for content. Disparaging commenters is strongly discouraged, and can result in comments being edited or removed.~~~
I have long transitioned to a no cans policy in my home.
If it can’t be packed in glass, I can live without it.
And sugar is a slow poison to the human animal.