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	<title>Comments on: Patrick Fitzgerald Holds Police Commander Accountable For Torture</title>
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		<title>By: whetstone</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/10/22/accountabilty-for-committing-torture/#comment-1695018</link>
		<dc:creator>whetstone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:46:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/10/22/accountabilty-for-committing-torture/#comment-1695018</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;As an editor here at the Chicago Reader, the alt-weekly that originally broke the story, I can say that people in Chicago are glad that Burge will see justice. But the mayor–who as state’s attorney turned a blind eye to the allegations–still remains unencumbered by the scandal. If you live here, that’s still a very raw point:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://blogs.chicagoreader.com/chicagoland/2008/10/21/mayor-daley-i-wasnt-mayor-i-wasnt-police-chief/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://blogs.chicagoreader.com.....ice-chief/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I’d also like to somewhat selfishly note the work of my former colleague John Conroy on the scandal; he broke the story and stuck with it for almost two decades. If it wasn’t for him (and the death-row pardons of George Ryan, which kicked off the civil lawsuits in which Burge is alleged to have perjured himself), this might not have gone anywhere. Here’s a full record of his articles:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.chicagoreader.com/policetorture/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.chicagoreader.com/policetorture/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;His book on torture, &lt;i&gt;Unspeakable Acts, Ordinary People&lt;/i&gt;, is also a remarkable read.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As an editor here at the Chicago Reader, the alt-weekly that originally broke the story, I can say that people in Chicago are glad that Burge will see justice. But the mayor–who as state’s attorney turned a blind eye to the allegations–still remains unencumbered by the scandal. If you live here, that’s still a very raw point:<br /><a href="http://blogs.chicagoreader.com/chicagoland/2008/10/21/mayor-daley-i-wasnt-mayor-i-wasnt-police-chief/" rel="nofollow">http://blogs.chicagoreader.com&#8230;..ice-chief/</a></p>
<p>I’d also like to somewhat selfishly note the work of my former colleague John Conroy on the scandal; he broke the story and stuck with it for almost two decades. If it wasn’t for him (and the death-row pardons of George Ryan, which kicked off the civil lawsuits in which Burge is alleged to have perjured himself), this might not have gone anywhere. Here’s a full record of his articles:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.chicagoreader.com/policetorture/" rel="nofollow">http://www.chicagoreader.com/policetorture/</a></p>
<p>His book on torture, <i>Unspeakable Acts, Ordinary People</i>, is also a remarkable read.</p>
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		<title>By: BooRadley</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/10/22/accountabilty-for-committing-torture/#comment-1694971</link>
		<dc:creator>BooRadley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:22:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/10/22/accountabilty-for-committing-torture/#comment-1694971</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Done, thanks for the link.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Done, thanks for the link.</p>
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		<title>By: rikkidoglake</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/10/22/accountabilty-for-committing-torture/#comment-1694931</link>
		<dc:creator>rikkidoglake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 22:32:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/10/22/accountabilty-for-committing-torture/#comment-1694931</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Here’s an excerpt from a forum on Religion &amp; the Death Penalty at the University of Chicago on January 25, 2002:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.pewforum.org/deathpenalty/resources/transcript3.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.pewforum.org/deathp.....cript3.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;“QUESTION: Hi, this is a comment for Justice Scalia. My name is David Bates. I’m a formerly incarcerated individual, served ten years in prison, was falsely accused of a crime, tortured, beaten. I’m worried because this seems more like a joke. You have innocent people on death row right now who have been forced to sign confessions, who have been tortured, suffocated and beaten, and it’s like this is a tea party here. I’m scared that you’re a justice. I’m honest. I’m scared. I’m worried.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;JUSTICE SCALIA: And your question, sir?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;QUESTION: This is going to be a comment. I’m saying I know personally there are several people on death row who are there because of forced confessions, who have been tortured and suffocated, and that needs to be addressed.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;JUSTICE SCALIA: You should call somebody about that and have it investigated, sir. Do not keep it to yourself. Take it to the police. “&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Since the police are the torturers, there are only two logical inferences one can draw from this exchange — Scalia is incredibly cruel, or Scalia is a fool.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I don’t believe he is a fool.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here’s an excerpt from a forum on Religion &amp; the Death Penalty at the University of Chicago on January 25, 2002:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.pewforum.org/deathpenalty/resources/transcript3.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.pewforum.org/deathp&#8230;..cript3.php</a></p>
<p>“QUESTION: Hi, this is a comment for Justice Scalia. My name is David Bates. I’m a formerly incarcerated individual, served ten years in prison, was falsely accused of a crime, tortured, beaten. I’m worried because this seems more like a joke. You have innocent people on death row right now who have been forced to sign confessions, who have been tortured, suffocated and beaten, and it’s like this is a tea party here. I’m scared that you’re a justice. I’m honest. I’m scared. I’m worried.</p>
<p>JUSTICE SCALIA: And your question, sir?</p>
<p>QUESTION: This is going to be a comment. I’m saying I know personally there are several people on death row who are there because of forced confessions, who have been tortured and suffocated, and that needs to be addressed.</p>
<p>JUSTICE SCALIA: You should call somebody about that and have it investigated, sir. Do not keep it to yourself. Take it to the police. “</p>
<p>Since the police are the torturers, there are only two logical inferences one can draw from this exchange — Scalia is incredibly cruel, or Scalia is a fool.</p>
<p>I don’t believe he is a fool.</p>
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		<title>By: ThingsComeUndone</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/10/22/accountabilty-for-committing-torture/#comment-1694922</link>
		<dc:creator>ThingsComeUndone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 22:28:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/10/22/accountabilty-for-committing-torture/#comment-1694922</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks for the post LHP&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the post LHP</p>
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		<title>By: looseheadprop</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/10/22/accountabilty-for-committing-torture/#comment-1694915</link>
		<dc:creator>looseheadprop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 22:20:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/10/22/accountabilty-for-committing-torture/#comment-1694915</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;That’s a bit of my point/ If you hew to first principles (like, torture is wrong) and believe in the rule of law (like, no one is above the law and everyone is entitled to the protection of the law)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;You end up with breathtaking sane responses to insane cruetly&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That’s a bit of my point/ If you hew to first principles (like, torture is wrong) and believe in the rule of law (like, no one is above the law and everyone is entitled to the protection of the law)</p>
<p>You end up with breathtaking sane responses to insane cruetly</p>
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		<title>By: rikkidoglake</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/10/22/accountabilty-for-committing-torture/#comment-1694912</link>
		<dc:creator>rikkidoglake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 22:17:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/10/22/accountabilty-for-committing-torture/#comment-1694912</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;At his press conference on October 28, 2005, announcing Libby’s indictment, Fitzgerald said this:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;” . . . I think people might not understand this, we as prosecutors and FBI agents, have to deal with false statements, obstruction of justice and perjury all the time. And the Department of Justice charges those statutes all the time. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;When I was in New York working as a prosecutor, we brought those cases because we realize that the truth is the engine of our judicial system. And if you compromise the truth, the whole process is lost.”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;A stunning statement of faith in the rule of law.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/osc/documents/2005_10_28_fitzgerald_press_conference.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/.....erence.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At his press conference on October 28, 2005, announcing Libby’s indictment, Fitzgerald said this:</p>
<p>” . . . I think people might not understand this, we as prosecutors and FBI agents, have to deal with false statements, obstruction of justice and perjury all the time. And the Department of Justice charges those statutes all the time. </p>
<p>When I was in New York working as a prosecutor, we brought those cases because we realize that the truth is the engine of our judicial system. And if you compromise the truth, the whole process is lost.”</p>
<p>A stunning statement of faith in the rule of law.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/osc/documents/2005_10_28_fitzgerald_press_conference.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/&#8230;..erence.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: looseheadprop</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/10/22/accountabilty-for-committing-torture/#comment-1694911</link>
		<dc:creator>looseheadprop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 22:13:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/10/22/accountabilty-for-committing-torture/#comment-1694911</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;One of the things we noticed during the Libby coverarge was how Pat seemed to use public documents and public statements to say things that operated on several levels.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;This act SHOWS us how you do accountability for torture. Leading by example, I’m glad someone still knows how to do that&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the things we noticed during the Libby coverarge was how Pat seemed to use public documents and public statements to say things that operated on several levels.</p>
<p>This act SHOWS us how you do accountability for torture. Leading by example, I’m glad someone still knows how to do that</p>
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		<title>By: alank</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/10/22/accountabilty-for-committing-torture/#comment-1694906</link>
		<dc:creator>alank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 22:11:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/10/22/accountabilty-for-committing-torture/#comment-1694906</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Yoo validated Cheney’s Law articulated by Addington.  Addington was the author of all the presidential signing statements, as well.  All three should be in the dock.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yoo validated Cheney’s Law articulated by Addington.  Addington was the author of all the presidential signing statements, as well.  All three should be in the dock.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/10/22/accountabilty-for-committing-torture/#comment-1694868</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 21:41:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;The whole Gitmo torture thing is going to be a very hard issue to fix. &lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Yep.  And with lawsuits now re: the Uighurs, with Gov taking the position Hamdan can’t be released at the end of his “sentence”, with the nuts and bolts of the stories of 80 yo cripples shipped to GITMO for interrogation experimentation, etc. - &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;well, even though neither McCain nor Obama has shown any indication that they will ever try to right any wrongs re: innocent people tortured and disappeared, apparently Bush has decided his ass is best covered if he creates as much chaos as possible at GITMO before leaving office, in the hopes that a future administration will find things in such horrific shape that they won’t be able to close down.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/21/washington/21gitmo.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10.....gitmo.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Despite his stated desire to close the American prison at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, President Bush has decided not to do so, and never considered proposals drafted in the State Department and the Pentagon that outlined options for transferring the detainees elsewhere, according to senior administration officials&lt;br /&gt;
…&lt;br /&gt;
Mr. Bush adopted the view of his most hawkish advisers that closing Guantánamo would involve too many legal and political risks to be acceptable&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Besides, this way Bush (and Addington and Goldsmith and Yoo et al) can get “validation”  And after all, is it really such a big deal to have old cripples used for torture experiments if, in the end, we can give a Fratboy and a Harvard law prof “validation?”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Mr. Cheney and his chief of staff, David S. Addington, have made it clear in the internal discussions this year that keeping Guantánamo open under a new president would validate the administration’s decisions dealing with terrorists, the officials said.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And showing that the NYT has plenty of Judy Millers still available to the WH, we ;earn from the reporter, Steven Myers, that &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Closing Guantánamo would most likely mean abandoning prosecutions against some detainees and risking the release of others who still pose a threat to the United States and its allies.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;No attribution, no counterpoint.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And golly, Dept of Homeland Sec, headed by Chertoff - who also conducted the criminal reviews and took the torture field trip to GITMO and gave big thumbs up to the torture - is fighting just as hard as DOJ to keep innocent detainees, purchased and experimented on for year, forever in a little black box.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;That official and others said that officials from the Department of Homeland Security, along with the Justice Department, have argued most vigorously for keeping Guantánamo open, largely because a ruling like the Uighur case could result in foreign fighters being freed into American communities.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;“The federal courts have an absolute right to release these people, but the court didn’t say where, and what does that mean, to release them,” the senior official said. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Chertoff should breathe easy - after all, the dismissal of el-Masri’s case shows our courts could give a rats ass who the loyal Bushies bought, sold, tortured or even killed.  The Wecht case pretty much shows what happens to someone who mentions homicide.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>The whole Gitmo torture thing is going to be a very hard issue to fix. </em></p>
<p>Yep.  And with lawsuits now re: the Uighurs, with Gov taking the position Hamdan can’t be released at the end of his “sentence”, with the nuts and bolts of the stories of 80 yo cripples shipped to GITMO for interrogation experimentation, etc. &#8211; </p>
<p>well, even though neither McCain nor Obama has shown any indication that they will ever try to right any wrongs re: innocent people tortured and disappeared, apparently Bush has decided his ass is best covered if he creates as much chaos as possible at GITMO before leaving office, in the hopes that a future administration will find things in such horrific shape that they won’t be able to close down.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/21/washington/21gitmo.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10&#8230;..gitmo.html</a></p>
<blockquote><p>Despite his stated desire to close the American prison at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, President Bush has decided not to do so, and never considered proposals drafted in the State Department and the Pentagon that outlined options for transferring the detainees elsewhere, according to senior administration officials<br />
…<br />
Mr. Bush adopted the view of his most hawkish advisers that closing Guantánamo would involve too many legal and political risks to be acceptable</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Besides, this way Bush (and Addington and Goldsmith and Yoo et al) can get “validation”  And after all, is it really such a big deal to have old cripples used for torture experiments if, in the end, we can give a Fratboy and a Harvard law prof “validation?”</p>
<blockquote><p>Mr. Cheney and his chief of staff, David S. Addington, have made it clear in the internal discussions this year that keeping Guantánamo open under a new president would validate the administration’s decisions dealing with terrorists, the officials said.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>And showing that the NYT has plenty of Judy Millers still available to the WH, we ;earn from the reporter, Steven Myers, that </p>
<blockquote><p>Closing Guantánamo would most likely mean abandoning prosecutions against some detainees and risking the release of others who still pose a threat to the United States and its allies.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>No attribution, no counterpoint.  </p>
<p>And golly, Dept of Homeland Sec, headed by Chertoff &#8211; who also conducted the criminal reviews and took the torture field trip to GITMO and gave big thumbs up to the torture &#8211; is fighting just as hard as DOJ to keep innocent detainees, purchased and experimented on for year, forever in a little black box.</p>
<blockquote><p>That official and others said that officials from the Department of Homeland Security, along with the Justice Department, have argued most vigorously for keeping Guantánamo open, largely because a ruling like the Uighur case could result in foreign fighters being freed into American communities.</p>
<p>“The federal courts have an absolute right to release these people, but the court didn’t say where, and what does that mean, to release them,” the senior official said. </p>
</blockquote>
<p>Chertoff should breathe easy &#8211; after all, the dismissal of el-Masri’s case shows our courts could give a rats ass who the loyal Bushies bought, sold, tortured or even killed.  The Wecht case pretty much shows what happens to someone who mentions homicide.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/10/22/accountabilty-for-committing-torture/#comment-1694866</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 21:19:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/10/22/accountabilty-for-committing-torture/#comment-1694866</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Good for him on this case, but I don’t really see how his quote jives with either the Salah case (which made some nice case law for letting torture testimony from hooded, identity concealed torturers into evidence - case law I’m sure we’ll see used in the future) or with a DOJ that has been knowingly advocating FOR torture for the last 6 years or so.  Child disappearances, US based torture of US citizens, infection of the US military with torture - Fitzgerald makes the point that no one in Chitown should judge current members of law enforcement by what Burge did and he’s right on that. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;They should, however, judge current members of law enforcement for what has been done over the last 6 years and is being done, right now.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good for him on this case, but I don’t really see how his quote jives with either the Salah case (which made some nice case law for letting torture testimony from hooded, identity concealed torturers into evidence &#8211; case law I’m sure we’ll see used in the future) or with a DOJ that has been knowingly advocating FOR torture for the last 6 years or so.  Child disappearances, US based torture of US citizens, infection of the US military with torture &#8211; Fitzgerald makes the point that no one in Chitown should judge current members of law enforcement by what Burge did and he’s right on that. </p>
<p>They should, however, judge current members of law enforcement for what has been done over the last 6 years and is being done, right now.</p>
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