so true Eli

they all have champagne dreams and caviar wishes “G”

The American DreamOn

they’re one big score away from the big time

“come on, sevens”

Hi, Eli. I have never understood why people who have money, position, power, nice homes, good clothes, nice cars etc. would feel threatened by people like the real Joe-the-plumber. What is so dangerous about someone else doing well?

McCain got his big score by marrying a rich woman. Was that well-connected, crooked, exceptional, or just plain lucky? The legion of Joe-the-Plumbers should take note that he’s not like them.

Crowded country clubs can be very dangerous.

Bill Maher said basically the same thing about Sam Joe. He and his fellow travelers object to the concept that they may be rich and don’t want to pay more taxes. Remember Y2K and the “death tax” when it was noted that virtually no one pays the tax unless they have an estate in excess of $3 million, but they hated it because it was framed as a death tax. In 2006 Harry Reid called it the Paris Hilton Tax Cut and the Democrats won both houses. Coincidence?

As a 60-something woman who kinda made it from middle class parents whose parents were dirt poor, I think the dream was possible in earlier times, but not any more.

If one plumber does well, then they’re all going to want to do well, and then the carpenters will want in on the gig, and the electricians, and the next thing you know, the Exclusive Private Country Club(tm) is being overrun by the peons that build the place.

We can’t have that now. People might look at the Truly Entitled(tm) and think they’re plumbers, too. Horrors!

/s

Joe the illegal plumber seems to be contemptious of others. The fact that he is not licensed even at the apprentice level indicates this. To own a plumbing company he would need a plumbing contractors license. To obtain this he would need to have been a journeyman for several years, to be a journeyman plumber he should have been a apprentice for several years. For each advancement there are tests which have to be passed. Additionally to become a contractor one must prove liability insurance in most cases. Without a license insurance companies will not insure. This means that Joe the illegal plumber would leave the victim of incompetence high and dry. Truly a fuck everybody mentality.

I could never quite figure the psychology of this. Obviously, there is something in the mind that motivates these people to think that aligning themselves with the Republican Party against their best interest will somehow help them achieve “the American dream.”

Good post.

In terms of future dreams, these people need to take action. I never realized that it is so hard in Ohio to start a plumbing business. Come to think of it, I have never heard of a plumber or a carpenter or an electrician working for themselves. I guess it is as hard to start a plumbing business as it is to start an investment bank — and we all know that must be the fault of high taxes and/or the Democrats.

Joe must have such blockage, he needs to roto-rooter his thinking.

no one left for them to look down on?

Additionally to become a contractor one must prove liability insurance in most cases. Without a license insurance companies will not insure. This means that Joe the illegal plumber would leave the victim of incompetence high and dry.

Well, maybe not high and dry…

eCAHN, I think we are going back to Ian’s discussion the other night about education, money and privilege. As long as the people at the top support their own, choose their own, and haul up the ladder of education after themselves, we will have a completely un-equal playing field. Many people at the top like the idea of of an equal playing field, they just don’t want to have to compete.

Good point.

For what its worth, I think Sammy-Joe, the Not Plummers of this world vote Republican against their own interests because it gives them a feeling of superiority.

Have you also noticed that Obama always says “tax cuts for the middle class”? He doesn’t say tax cuts for the middle class and the poor, because people who are poor like to think of themselves as middle class.

nice post eli!

I would also suggest that if you strike it rich with the help of other people’s taxes, then any decent person should want to return the favor

bingo, I would frame it differantly though;

“if you strike it rich using the system that made it easy for you, you are obligated to pay into the system so others can strike it rich too”

there

feel free to edit that in there

There’s that saying that “a rising tide floats all boats” seem quite sensible to me. When we can all afford to buy widgets everyone profits. Seems to me that the people who have no interest in the real Joe are likely self-destructive in the long run.

as Henry Ford(Nazi) said ya gotta be very LUCKY!

In the past there has been a lot of mobility at the top. Don’t have any links, but my memory of the studies is that a lot of people move in and many move out of the top economic echelons. We know the prominent names, but there are a whole other bunch who move in & out, so it’s not as rigid as you think and it’s not ridiculous for lower income people to think they might be able to make it.

Don’t know whether this will still be true in the future, but if it isn’t it will take people awhile before it becomes apparent to people.

No luck. Just worked hard.

Entitlement is part of the Narcissitic Personality Disorder

Excellent anaysis… with your closer look at Joe the whiner.

I would frame it differantly though;

“if you strike it rich using the system that made it easy for you, you are obligated to pay into the system so others can strike it rich too”

Well, I’m looking at it from the angle of why the have-mores should be proud to pay taxes instead of resentful.

I have been a volunteer for reading in the public schools from elementary through high school. I wish I could find more than a few students who really want/like to read. It is like pulling teeth.

Our country is in a world of trouble.

yesterday’s fabulous FDL Guest Stefan Jones has some things to say about how Lee Atwater successfully employed these sentiments

link

You can also ask, Why hierarchy? Why dreams of glory? Why isn’t it enough to be human, to be alive, to love and enjoy? Why nationalism, which is a collective dream of glory? Why do people respond to the charge of class warfare as the poor, acting through government, against the rich-when the true battle is the rich against the poor? The answer, my friend, is blowin’ in the wind.

Im just quoting Henry Ford…im basically talking about the average persons chances of scoring very big in America these days…it is NOT what it used to be.if one is quite talented or lucky ,the chances are still against you…imo

We know the prominent names, but there are a whole other bunch who move in & out, so it’s not as rigid as you think and it’s not ridiculous for lower income people to think they might be able to make it.

Sure, there’s always going to be some upward mobility, but *most* people aren’t going to become millionaires, just like most college athletes and minor leaguers never make the big show.

i believe it is bullshit “perfectionism” taught in the churches,and part of the DO AS I SAY ,NOT as i do DOCTRINE…..very screwy

Schools with their emphasis on literacy are in trouble. Kids, raised on television and video games with remotes, are averse to boredom and reading bores most of them out of their minds. I doubt there’s a high school in the country where some fourteen year old doesn’t know more about computers than anyone on the faculty. Schools, that is educators, are out of it, not the kids.

correcto,or that most starlettes wont be the next ANJELINA JOLIE

they won’t be proud, they are sociopathic, we have to make certain they know and we know, it’s an obligation, one of the bills you pay

Angelina? how you spell he name?

I can never figure it out either. I have the same argument with every working class republican I have ever met.

I think the disconnect comes with them actually SEEING what they get in return, especially since so many gov’t run services are less than efficient or stellar in delivery.

If Democrats could actually push through a few working social programs that increased satisfaction with delivery and cut costs, I think maybe more people would be inclined to believe them. Instead we see our wages flat, our costs sky-rocketing, our health care unaffordable and our schools worsening.

The GOP will do anything to make sure Gov’t DOESNT work for the people, their message of less government depends on it. The question is, will anyone stand up to them?

Single payer health care?
Health care portability?
Small business tax relief?
No-interest gov’t loans for college (including grad school)?
Increased deductions for working class families?
Federal spending for schools increased?

At the same time, the message needs to be marketed effectively to the country. Liberalism isn’t (only) about altruism. It’s about fighting for the working man’s piece of the pie. It’s a counter balance to oligarchy and out of control market forces. Liberal Democracy and Capitalism are necessary antagonists, yet one side has been asleep for a generation.

Lastly, the 30 year, supply-side, trickle down experiment needs to be thoroughly discreditied, and shown to be nothing more than a well-marketed giveaway to the rich. The numbers don’t lie, the upper tax bracket givaway has been a total failure.

Of course the probability is that few will makes $1 million/year or more. All I’m saying is that there is a nonzero probability and therefore not ridiculous for some people to have the dream.

I found a link to the kind of study I was referring to.
http://swordscrossed.org/node/1729

oops, my 35 is for your 26

Yes, and people who don’t read are really going to be left in the dust of China, India, and other places where ambition is a common denominator. I think we are not very ambitious, and the ones who are ambitious are not necessarily ambitious for the best outcome, IMO.

i also blame Madison Ave,for people believing they are inferior if they dont drive a BMW,or an Hummer etc,or wear 200 sunglasses,or wer 600 dollar handbags…etc.

Morning Eli. Fine post.

Shorter GOP:

I support these sociopaths knowing that my day is to come.

Obama’s economic forum is on CNN.com You can stream it online. If you have a chance to listen, I’d love your views.

HENCE EXTREME ANGER ….when success doesnt come….blame dems

I like that Stiglitz said that the same people who don’t like mark to market now had no problem with it when the housing market was overvalued and they were getting oversized bonuses as a result.

Do you have a specific link? I’m not sure what you’re talking about.

I don’t believe that the average person wants to be hugely rich. I do think that people would like to live in a nice house in a safe neighborhood, send their kids to good schools, have decent clothes to wear and a reasonable car to drive. They would like to be able to take their family on vacation at least once a year – not to Europe, but camping or Disneyland. I suppose that means they would like to feel safe in their lives. Too much to ask?

Paul Volker is going to speak next at Obama’s forum. You can stream it online at cnn.com

Did you notice that in response to how to get credit for the poor, Rivlin did not say: They don’t need credit. They need higher incomes.

http://www.cnn.com They have a link to stream the forum.

I heard a story on NPR yesterday about your dad, I think.

Excellent post.

This also helps explain why most people who vote Rethug vote against their own best interests.

Of course the probability is that few will makes $1 million/year or more. All I’m saying is that there is a nonzero probability and therefore not ridiculous for some people to have the dream.

I have no problem with people dreaming and aspiring, but voting based on keeping a few extra bucks in a best-case future you someday hope to achieve (especially if that vote makes that future *harder* to achieve) seems beyond the pale to me. I mean, can’t they at least wait until they *have* their riches before they start trying to hoard them?

I just got back from running so I haven’t heard that much, but Rivlin does seem a waste of time.

Here’s the link.
http://www.cnn.com/video/live/…..am=stream2

Yes, that was my dad.

I can never figure it out either. I have the same argument with every working class republican I have ever met.

it’s because we frame it as “they should” instead if “it’s one of the bills they have to pay to get their, they got their now the bill has to be payed”

The whole panel seems like a waste of time.

I think this is why we have lotteries.

bom dia pups

a rising Ty-D-Bol lifts all little boats.

Maybe Joe the non-plumber and his types invest heavily in the lottery.

Lotteries aka Red-neck Retirement Plans

I remember that commercial. And you are certainly sharp this early in the morning. :)

i also blame Madison Ave,for people believing they are inferior if they dont drive a BMW,or an Hummer etc,or wear 200 sunglasses,or wer 600 dollar handbags…etc.

Another damn good point.

We don’t hear nearly enough criticism about this.

Advertising works, and works very well.

A few years ago I used to do financial education seminars for America Saves.

I would open my presentation by by pointing out how many times we are solicited to spend money by noon everyday vs. how many times we were asked to save money.

IIRC, at that time the average person saw or heard 60 ads by lunchtime every day.

And we wonder why we have a debt crisis in the US.

I don’t believe that the average person wants to be hugely rich. I do think that people would like to live in a nice house in a safe neighborhood, send their kids to good schools, have decent clothes to wear and a reasonable car to drive. They would like to be able to take their family on vacation at least once a year – not to Europe, but camping or Disneyland. I suppose that means they would like to feel safe in their lives. Too much to ask?

I’m hoping you’re right. Most people want to make more than they’re making now, but the question is how *much* more? And where do they think they currently reside on the income ladder?

A desire to make, say 25, 50 or even 100% more over time is probably attainable for many, but quantum leaps into the millionaire range are pretty rare. So of the lower-income and middle-class Republican voters, I think there’s a mix of people who think they’re in a higher bracket than they really are, think they’re going to be, or have just bought the Republican propaganda that the Democrats will tax *everybody*.

And, of course, the ones that vote Republicans because of the gays or the fetuses or the blacks or the Mexicans or the Arabs.

Lots of discussion about Colorado- and Pennsylvania. Bottom line- if McBush loses Colorado, New Mexico, and Iowa (Iowa is a sure thing) then he has to win Pennsylvania- in which he is down by 15 points or so.

In other words, If he loses Colorado and New Mexico- this thing’s all over.

The problem with “wealth” is it becomes incrementally more meaningless as it is fairly spread. I think the more fundamental psychological hook is the desire to be the “betters” of society.

Wealth, in Western culture, is the “best” way to express that, so naturally any attenuation of its meaning will be resisted.

A family who makes $100k can get along fine- but they won’t live “rich”.

A family that makes $200k can do about anything they want. (unless their tastes include private jets or 50 foot boats- or $3mm houses.)

Perhaps in the past, when personal behaviors really stamped one in terms of class, this was the item that generated the mobility out of the upper classes, esp for women. But I see(and George Bush and John McCain are two really good examples, even though they are an n=1)more and more situations where a family’s money and status is used to protect and shield family members from feeling the effects of their behaviors.

I hope it’s settled long before we get the vote count for Colorado and New Mexico. Not sure my heart will last well into the night.

But it is ridiculous to think that you can make it into the upper echelon if it has been made impossible for you to get the higher education that would put you there. Otherwise it is ALL luck, since you have no connections and no education, and those people are few and far between. Part of their whole ideology is to make it harder and harder to compete with their legacy-Ivy-League kids because their kids can’t compete on a level playing field by merit.

here at we work we buy the occasional group lotto ticket, with very low expectations. the upside of a (nearly mathematically impossible) big win – after the govt. takes its 50% tax share or whatever – would be to have the freedom to mentor in the local schools or build some affordable housing. that, and play golf frequently.

Wealth, in Western culture, is the “best” way to express that, so naturally any attenuation of its meaning will be resisted.

This sounds a bit like the nonsensical conservative argument against gay marriage, only a lot less nonsensical, because the club of wealthy people is so much more exclusive and prestigious than the club of married people.

(Yes, we can argue the merits of wealth vs. a good marriage, but culturally, wealth carries a lot more cachet.)

Some news from CO
http://www.vaildaily.com/artic…..09913/1002

it’s all downhill from here… :~)

People can live on $50k a year- and many families do, but seems to always be a strain.

Yep- that’s what this thing is coming down to. McCain is faced with having to hold onto all the red states left out there—he’s got to run the table- and it looks as if he can’t- so plan B is to win Pennsylvania- which looks equally impossible.

emptywheel is across the hall with:
OH Secretary of State’s Website Hacked

I’ve been listening. It’s a campaign event with the usual D economic wish list. Don’t hear much that’s new. As for the substance of the wish list, some may work and some may not. For example, industrial policies have had notable successes, especially among developing countries, but have also had notable failures, like the beggar thy neighbor policies that some states have pursued.

The real key for the economy is to get real wages to rise, and other than some mild nods to making it easier for unions, there’s really nothing that a policy maker could do.

Infrastructure spending will help put a floor under the downturn, especially among construction workers, and help the U.S. in the longer term, but it too is not a cure-all.

Not much talk in the portion I tuned in for on medical, but that is certainly a macroeconomic problem, and Obama’s plan is weak.

Gotta get to some pressing matters for a meeting this afternoon.

In other words, If he loses Colorado and New Mexico- this thing’s all over.

Not strictly accurate, but I’m calling it McCain’s ”15-State Strategy” – it leaves him no margin for error, and a very good chance of losing in a landslide.

In addition to a hope for future riches for some, I think the link to Republican propaganda has come to provide them with a lifetime justification for low achieving. It it hadn’t been for the Democrats and all the government special programs that stacked the deck against me, etc..
I never heard anythign about Joe or Sam trying to get college loans, or any history of his trying to go through the apprenticeship as a plumber. He also seemed to talk a lot about friends in the military, but for whatever reason was never in the military himself. The Democrats prevented him from doing those things.

Money is not the only source of wealth.
Some people have a wealth of talent and loved ones. And those people may, possibly, be happier than those with the Big Bucks.

Back in the Nixon administration, there was a theory that Repugs thought that wealth was like a pie; the bigger your piece, the less for me. I don’t believe that’s changed much over the years.

In many other countries in Europe, for instance, they have workable social programs that include many of the things you mentioned. They don’t pay for medical care or for schools. Their tax rates are high; I’ve heard around 50% of their income, but many Americans, I think, would be willing to pay that if they could send their kids to college and get medical care free of the worry about how they can afford to pay for it all. They would, that is, if they hadn’t been taught that taxes are an unnecessary burden that goes into a black hole and really doesn’t benefit anyone. I’m thinking they also get retirement out of it. Could we do that here effectively, or would the greed and corruption of the few that run such systems serve to wreck the effectiveness? We already have social security and medicare/medicaid. Even SSI. We need a healthcare system that doesn’t cause the average citizen to go bankrupt whenever someone in his family has a catastrophic illness or accident, even though they have “good” insurance.

I do my banking at a credit union, not a “for profit” bank. It works out well for me and many others. Greed has not caused my credit union to throw their capital into risky lending practices. They are a co-op of members with mutual respect. We need some more things to be done on a cooperative basis for the sake of the citizens of this country. Things like education, healthcare, taking care of the elderly that cannot care for themselves anymore but have outlived their progeny and their savings, should be shared responsibilities. Instead, we have left our children to pay for our folly. It’s inconceivable that we could be so callous!

Majority of States Now in Recession…

http://abcnews.go.com/Business…..0&p=1

I’ve lived 24 years in the US and 24 years in Denmark, so I have a pretty good understanding of both systems. I, too, think that the utterly astonishing fact that a great deal of Republicans vote against their own interests is aspirational….they may not have money right now, but tomorrow they’ll be rich! (and don’t want to pay higher taxes).

In Denmark, there’s a strong tradition for voting based on your current situation. And, as most people know, a high level of taxation at higher income levels. However, the taxes that everybody pays gives you a return that I didn’t experience in the US: Free education, free healthcare, a social safety-net that ensures that you will NEVER be in the situation that so many millions of Americans are in, where they don’t have food and shelter. And, of course, this gives Danes a tremendous amount of peace of mind, which is quite frankly the biggest benefit of it all.

The Brookings Institute in 2007 compared the economic upward mobility across countries, and in this study Denmark ranked first. In other words, the support structure for a person is so strong in Denmark, that it is truly up to the person him- or herself to move up the ladder and become rich (and honestly, there are plenty of tax loopholes for the rich here, too, so it’s not as if they pay all that much more in taxes). In such a society, you don’t have to fantasize about becoming rich, you can use the resources that the collective society supports and work your way up. And your chances of success are far, far greater than in the US (I think the US ranked 43′rd or something in that study).

I’m making this comparison, because I know that the Republican voters, who vote against their own economic and situational interests, also abhor the Danish (or Scandinavian, rather) model, which would equally benefit them.

You are right, but ambition is what we are talking about, a need to be better than others. Right now we do that by accululating money, sometimes much more than we will ever need. American kids are exposed the most to electric technology which, like it or not, is egalitarian. Networks require standards. One of our problems is standards are not pervasive enough. Our kids do not want to live like their parents, stuck in a boring job and the fancy house in a gated community does not offset their dislike. The kids don’t see an alternative which is why they default to outlandish clothes, piercing, and tatoos, and why teen suicide is a serious problem.

Times are changing. I have no difficulty seeing literacy as passe as learning Latin and Greek which was considered important at the turn of the last century. Perhaps acquiring the equipment for them to make DVD’s instead of writing term papers might be a step in the right direction. Schools could them become interactive with libraries of course materials (audio-visual) on line. The fact is reading is a fairly inefficient way to learn-would you rather read a manual or see a visual that talked you through a problem? Do not lose heart. We may be on the cusp of something very big and very beautiful.

McCain’s audience vs. his audience
October 20, 2008, 12:44PM

Isn’t it interesting that McCain keeps saying at his rallies that Obama “Will raise your taxes!”

He thinks he’s in front of this audience:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mn4daYJzyls

And his audience thinks America is upwardly mobile and they’ll have a chance to get to $250K a year:

By international standards, the United States has an unusually low level of intergenerational mobility: our parents’ income is highly predictive of our incomes as adults. Intergenerational mobility in the United States is lower than in France, Germany, Sweden, Canada, Finland, Norway and Denmark. Among high-income countries for which comparable estimates are available, only the United Kingdom had a lower rate of mobility than the United States.

It is also worth saying this, “the better we all do, the better we all do.” The myth of conservative Republicanism is that when the wealthy do better, America as a whole does better. This is not true. When the whole of America does better, which is generally the case under Democratic Presidents, the entire economy does better, everyone’s income goes up. The ONLY downside is that the top 1% don’t do quite as well (though they do spectacularly well by almost any other standard.)

Cheers,

I have long thought this: that the vast majority of Americans voted GOP because of what the future MIGHT bring. The rational thinking Americans know that the average person’s chance of becoming RICH is very slight. But it got me to thinking: it’s propaganda.

I remember, back in elementary school (and I am 55 now), that we were always told, “America is DIFFERENT! In all other countries, the average citizen cannot become rich, but here, everyone is equal.” This is a lie. But we were told that so many times, it became “conventional wisdom.”

And, sadly, most Americans never THINK about that statement. They just believe it — and, worse, think THEY will be RICH someday, too — and vote accordingly. This is very childish.