At this point it’s clear that, barring some sort of catastrophic revelation, Obama is going to win the election. The most important task facing him will be fixing the economy. Given his economic proposals to date, what strategy can we expect him to employ? What sort of economic philosophy does Obama believe in?
1) Tax cuts. When you want to convince people to do something, whether it be spend or go to university, you cut taxes on doing that thing. So, Obama wants a tax credit for companies that create new jobs in the US. He wants a tax credit so you can buy your own insurance He wants to cut taxes on the middle class in general, so they will spend more and save more. He wants to offer a tax credit for going to university. There will be a 10% mortgage credit.
Although his tax cut plan is not as expensive as McCain’s, it is not revenue neutral, it will reduce government income, going into a recession. However it will also increase taxes somewhat on the rich, and reduce taxes on the middle class and the poor.
2) He wants to reinstitute pay-go rules. If he follows through on this, there will be few new large programs.
3) He believes in crude Keynesian stimulus, which is untargeted. Case in point, a windfall tax on oil companies which will be used to pay $1,000 to each US family.
4) He believes in smaller amounts of targeted spending for pet projects, for example 150 billion over 10 years for green jobs (that’s 15 billion a year. After seeing how much money was spent on banks in the last couple months, I trust everyone realizes that this is, indeed, small change.)
5) He wants to expand the military. Yes, this is an economic policy because if you want to cut costs there are very few places in the federal government to do it. The easiest place to do it without affecting too many normal citizens is actually the military. If you put the military off-limits for significant cuts, there are no easy other wins that add up to real money and no easy pay-go offsets.
6) He believes in workers rights, unionization and a higher minimum wage. All good things.
What does this add up to?
The Good
Obama’s tax plan will put more of the burden on the rich, he will raise the minimum wage, make unionization easier and generally help workers. The effect won’t be large, but for the poorest workers and for unions, it will be noticeable. The tax credit for going to university is large enough to be really noticeable and a lot of kids who wouldn’t have been able to go otherwise will make it.
The Ugly
Pay-go, $1,000 checks and mortgage credits. Oh sure, they all seem good, but pay-go is being passed after Wall Street got its two trillion or so, and before Main Street gets anything near the same amount. Doesn’t seem fair, and that’s because it isn’t. You will pay for the bail out, but get few of the benefits, beyond avoiding having to eat rats.
As for $1,000 checks and mortgage credits—these things seem good. Everyone likes getting a check in the mail, everyone who owns a house likes the idea of mortgage credit. But, in fact, the money will go either to paying down debts or to oil inflation. And the mortgage credit will help keep the the suburban expansion system going. And that’s not a good thing, because each time the suburbs expand it leads to more oil being needed, and since the US has to buy that from overseas, and can’t afford to, that’s a bad thing.
The Bad
To understand the bad it’s necessary to understand how stimulus works. If I give everyone in the country $1,000 dollars, they run out and spend it, or save it, or use it to pay down debts. The spending is what I mostly wanted, I want demand to increase so companies sell more stuff, need more workers and so on. So this is good. But let’s say that the structure of the economy is unhealthy, that people are spending money on things that aren’t good for America’s overall health? Then every dollar I give them to spend as they choose is actually causing damage.
This is where the US is right now. The suburban sprawlconomy generates demand for more oil just at the time when oil production appears to have reached its global peak. Money into real estate, slowing down or stopping the drop in home prices keeps American houses actually overpriced. This may not seem like a big deal – who doesn’t like having a house that’s expensive? Well, who doesn’t is the people who have to service the mortgages. The more the mortgage costs, the more of their income Americans spend on just paying that. That’d be okay if wages had kept up with housing prices over the last thirty years, or especially over the last 8, but they haven’t. Americans spend more and more of their income on their houses, leaving less and less money for anything else. They don’t save, so American business and government has to borrow money from overseas. They have less and less money to spend on consumer goods and recreation, meaning demand either drops or the US has to borrow money from overseas as well.
Too high house prices squeeze out other economic activity, then. They make you feel rich, but they actually make people in aggregate poorer, not in nominal wealth, but in real disposable income.
So then, giving people money may seem good, giving housing credits may seem good, but it does not solve the structural problems in the economy. The suburban sprawlconomy, creating new development and development, exurb after suburb, is a large part of what is wrong with the US’s economy. You don’t want to give money to people who are just going to go back to doing the same things that caused the problem the last time. (That’s not to say you don’t want people to have money, there are other ways to get it to them.)
Which leads to the financial crisis, which we need to discuss for a moment. Obama pushed very strongly for the final bill that passed, including calling up Democratic members and convincing them to vote for it. He put his muscle behind it, hard. It was, in a very real sense, his first governing act. And what is notable about the bailout bill is this—it does not include significant regulatory changes to the banking industry. It does not have strong language changing industry compensation practices, without which the same behavior will continue, because it will continue to be rewarded. Now it is possible that Obama could pass massive regulatory changes once he is in power and has indicated some interest in doing, but once the worst part of the crisis is over, one wonders if he will or if he will be able to even if he wants to. The Blue Dogs won’t go for it, many conservative Democrats in the Senate won’t go for it. But my guess, honestly, is that Obama won’t want to make really fundamental changes and tighten regulation up brutally. He won’t, say, reinstitute Glass-Steagall.
Which is to say, at the end of the day, the old Bush economy is still going to be more or less in place. A bit battered, a bit knocked about, but the same essential sprawlconomy with a military-industrial component. Money will still go through the same channels and will do the same things as it did in the past. The fundamental changes which need to be made, won’t be made. And that means that in 2 to 4 years, outside, we’ll be back here again, except with a lot less ability to make changes because we’ll have a lot less real money.
Obamanomics then is "do the same things smarter and with some more kindness for ordinary people". Unfortunately, no matter how smart you do the same things that got the US to this point, they are still stupid. Doing stupid smart is not what the US needs.
Liberalism
So, you may be thinking "that’s all very nice, Ian, but what’s the alternative?"
The alternative is liberalism, rather than neo-liberalism. A liberal looking at this problem thinks "there’s a supply bottleneck, I need to make that bottleneck go away". A liberal looking at this problem thinks "for the purposes of stimulus it really doesn’t matter who spends the money, a dollar is a dollar". A liberal looking at the problem doesn’t think "I should cut taxes so people do more of the wrong things". A liberal looking at the problem thinks "let’s change the economy so that people acting to make themselves happy make things better, not worse."
How does a liberal do these things? Well, first a liberal decides to take away the inflation problem, that whenever people get money they spend it on things that cause the demand for oil to increase. He does so by making a huge multi-hundred billion dollar investment in fuel efficiency by buying up all the least fuel efficient vehicles, by spending massively on public transit, by doing a massive fiber build-out and encouraging businesses to telecommute. He reduces the speed limit to 55 on all roads. He starts charging people for driving during rush hour. He encourages businesses to have workers work 9 hour days and take off a long weekend every two weeks. He massively invests in green energy. He sets up a program to refit every building in the US so that it uses as little energy as possible, or even produces energy. He changes the energy network so every American can sell power to the power company. In doing all these things, he actually reduces US demand for oil and increases its energy output. And all this activity creates jobs, a lot of jobs, which can’t be offshored or outsourced.
And while the liberal may give a tax credit here, or a tax credit there, a lot of things he just has the government do, or has it spend the money directly. When you refit your house you don’t get a tax credit, you get someone to come and do the work, then a government inspector checks it’s done properly, then the company that refitted the house gets paid you get a reduced bill and share in some of the savings by actually receiving a check every month for as long as you live in the house. When new networks are set up, the government exercises eminent domain and encourages municipalities to set up their own networks. It forces large cable and phone companies to let anyone sell time on their networks, just like in the old dial up days and just like in countries like Japan that are far ahead of the US. Governments build the networks themselves, and run them themselves, since the major telecom companies have proven they wont’ give the US good broadband.
A liberal looking at the current situation says "if I go to real universal health care the US economy will save 5% of GDP, I know this because every single country in the world that has done it has gotten those savings." And he tells you, "your taxes will go up, but because you will not have to pay for insurance your spending income will actually go up. And if your employer pays for insurance I will make him give you half that as a pay raise. And as a result, ordinary Americans will actually have more money to spend as well as better health care."
A liberal would say "the financial sector needs to be cut down to size. I’m going to reregulate it and make it into a servant of the real economy again, and take the massive incentives for fraud out if it by making it pay not much more than any other industry."
The point here is that when the natural inclination of the market, given money, is to do the wrong thing, you have to very specifically spend the money on the right thing. Monetary policy right now doesn’t work, because it tells people to "go ahead and do what you’re doing". Tax cuts don’t work, even if targeted, because they say "if you feel like it". Spending directly on doing exactly what needs to be done, that works. Now a good liberal, also a good free marketer, knows that you don’t want to do this all the time, that in many cases the market is better, or monetary policy is better. But he understands that sometimes the free market can’t save itself; that sometimes if you want the right thing done, you’ve just got to do it and not futz around.
Oh, I know all of this is a dream. Obama’s not a liberal, despite all the screaming. That’s not his fault, there’s hardly a liberal left in America. As I like to joke, "Americans wouldn’t know a liberal if he gave them universal health care". And some will say that if Obama was a liberal, he couldn’t be elected, though frankly, after this campaign, I think that’s a weak argument.
But, because Obama isn’t a liberal, what he’s going to do is do neo-liberalism, aka:Reaganomics, one more time. One more roll of the dice at the land casino. It won’t work, and in a few years we’ll be back here again.
And then we’ll find out whether or not Obama can learn from experience. Most people can’t, really, they just repeat the same mistakes over and over again. But some can. FDR did, he tried something and if it didn’t work, he tried something else, and it was something genuinely different. Obama, it is said, models himself after the Kennedys, but I hope he’ll learn something from FDR as well.
Or it’ll be a long 4 years of failing Obamanomics, and then it may be something much worse.



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Zed..even after reading ?
worse than 8 years under shrub?
It’s quiet, too quiet…
Yup. Not because he won’t run things better, but because he’s starting from a far worse position.
Excuse the pun, but I think I was starting to feel “hopeful” with the news of Obama’s rise in the polls. And, darn you, Mr. Welsh, you had to bring me down to earth again! ;)
I’m just processing. But, I know you’re right, and have always known that Obama was going to do exactly what you say he’s going to do.
(Side note: I emailed Jane recently and told her what a great job you’ve been doing writing on the economic crisis. Even when you’re depressing, I love reading you. So, thanks.)
Dude, I just don’t think that’s going to happen. I know it would save a lot of gas, but…more likely that we’ll see higher fuel economy standards that save the gas and lets people drive 70.
Although I’m damn sick and tied of the SUV’s I see on I-75, cruising at 85-90 mph.
What about reducing waste, fraud and abuse? Rampant in the BushCo defense/state depts. Look at all the money down the rat hole with mercenaries and virtual blank checks to foreign friends.
I suppose it now pails alongside the bailout, but some serious change there….
Obama’s better than McCain and I’m glad he’s winning. But his first instinct when responding to every economic problem seems to be tax cuts and credits. It’s making me queasy. OTOH, John McCain wants to raise taxes on the middle class through health care and cut taxes on the rich. There’s no question Obama is better. His heart is in the right place, he’s even saying some of the right things about regulation. But… he feels like a neo-liberal neo-Reaganite to me. Just with some heart and care for ordinary people. It’s how he reacts. Sometimes ideas have consequences, and no matter how well meaning you are, executing the ideas won’t work out well if they’re the wrong ideas.
A liberal from the WWII era would know what to do right now, even one from the 50s or 60s. But they’re all gone, there are none of them left. The closest is probably Sanders, ironically. He’s not a socialist any more than FDR was, even if he calls himself one.
i’m an incurable optimistic so by nature i believe things will get better
I don’t think it’s going to happen either. But it’s the fastest easiest simplest way to save gas, and it’s “unthinkable”. What does that tell you?
as always ian, I LOVE your posts
quick question;
I need to referance the tax cuts bush gave to industry who exported our jobs
do you have a good link with that?
thanx
I agree, but at the same time, a part of me is hoping that he really is the wild-eyed radical the right wing is calling him.
one issue with the post;
sorry, rescinding the tax gifts president bush gave, redistributing our wealth is not a tax increase, it’s relcaiming assets
I DISPISE calling anything like this “taxing the wealthy”, putting the tax burden where it once was is just plain not raising taxes
lol. took a while to read. *g*
this is what scares me the most about obama. what comes next if he trashes what’s left of the D new-deal brand, rejects populism – in the midst of what roubini is now saying will be the worst recession in 40 years?
what i see is an opening for rightwing populism that scapegoats non-whites and liberals. something to make the last years look good.
can someone please tell me something to make me think differently?
One day I’ll write a post about the Welsh family motto “an optimist and a damned fool are the same thing”. And no, I’m not kidding, that’s it. :)
(Not meant personally. Optimism is far healthier than pessimism and I would rather be an optimist, they live longer and are happier. But they are not very good analysts as a rule. Cramer being case in point.)
I don’t Perris. But it wasn’t just him, it happened before him under Clinton and I bet Bush I and Reagan.
Thanks. It’s always the lesser of two evils for us “real” liberals. The bottom line is that Obama’s first and foremost a politician who is probably already thinking about 2012. He knows tax cuts and credits sell. It’s funny how failed policy continues to sell. I guess it’s greed?
Funny what you say about Sanders, too. He doesn’t sound like a Socialist to me, either. He just sounds rational. Go figure.
New CBS poll has Obama up by 14….McBush has Obama right where he wants him1
Right wing populist takeover is my default assumption in 2012. But that’s a long ways out still and a lot can change.
Um … wait ‘n’ see ?
…*ducks and runs* …
We should form a club. I am so “anti” SUVs; so many show up in little neighborhoods on little roads. My view has been: If you want a living room, stay home. I have surely been out-numbered, so I am quite pleased to hear your voice. The numbers may come our way ;)
Reminds me of an old joke … I pounded that guy’s fist with my face …
it has lead me pretty well thus so far.
in that case the 1000 dollars needs to be a refund after sale rather then simply a 1000 dollar gift
I would also allow everyone to petition for that money without the target sale but I would make it pro-active if they don’t want to spend the money where we want them to spend it
this is the REAL purpose of tax “incentives”, there should almost never be tax cuts througout, the tax incentive must be targeted toward the industry that needs growth
maybe stop being so scared about stuff so much.
There are no investment banks left, so Glass-Steigel is now irrelevant.
He wants to expand the military and deliver tax cuts?
He’d better be a genius with loaves and fishes, that’s for sure.
My family motto:
opinions (that is what analysis is) are like assholes. Everyone has one and thinks theirs doesn’t stink.
Reregulation with severe penalties seems to me to be a damn good place to start.
That and closing the loopholes that allow companies to have headquarters off shore and pay no freakin’ taxes.
Raising more money by taxing the shit out of the ones not paying ANY would also have some conservatives screaming bloody murder, something I thoroughly enjoy hearing.
obviously you mean blind optimizm, most optimists are not, we’ve become optimists because we know how to get things done that we want done
I like the follwing motto;
“a person does not earn respect they enjoy it, a person earns disrespect”
this is an optimists point of view but it is the way we all conduct our affairs, when we first meet someone they are given respect and it isn’t until they prove the do not deserve it that we rescind said respect
This place has become a total fucking bummer.
keith is on!
good to see you, Raven
Hi selise. I think if Obama does that, it will destroy him as well. I think Obama stands on the cusp of history, and is acutely aware of that. The mext few years are going to be tough-very tough-but I truly believe Obama looks at things somewhat more objectively than what we’ve become accustomed to, and may indeed push much harder and farther after he is elected, if it seems like it will improve things. In the end, it will be about results and motivation-and I do believe that he WILL try an do a good job, unlike some we are aware of.
Hope that helps, but YMMV.
Obama’s financial advisers seem sane, which is a good start. His background in this area is his associations with economists at the University of Chicago, so his instincts are probably shared with them, but Austan Goolsbee seems interesting, certainly not sucked into the usual Friedman stuff.
I think that just as FDR’s instincts were conservative, so are Obama’s, but that’s just not going to work, and I hope that he learns quickly and act pragmatically. At least he isn’t a hidebound ideologue. We have already seen that he can change on the fly, as he did on the economic stuff, I think there’s hope.
It is, in fact, spelled Steagall, not Steigel(sic), and there was a lot more to it than just i-banking, for example:
And so on.
i wish.
seriously though, i have one hope – and i admit it’s a slender reed, but not completely impossible i think… and that is that Obama will do his tax cut BS and then, when it doesn’t work, instead of doubling down and doing more of the same (see Bush) he will learn from that experience and he will look around for new and different ideas.
sort of like what JFK did, at least according to the mythology, after the bay of pigs- and what might have helped us survived the cuban missile crisis.
but i think the chances of this happening are low if he is only criticized from the right. which is one of the reasons i’m not going to quit criticizing him from the left.
Actually, studies have shown that depressed people make very accurate predictions of the future and of their own abilities and that ordinary people don’t. Optimists are worst of all at predicting the future. There’s plenty good about being an optimist, but it is bad for your predictive ability.
FDR’s instincts were conservative, but he surrounded himself with some pretty radical thinkers on economic matters, actually. A lot of Obama’s advisors are neo-libs. They’re quite competent, smart folks, but they aren’t liberals. Neo-liberalism is its own particular pathology that folks have tended to forget about since Bush was in power.
I dunno. Bugga bugga if you ask me…
Don’t ask me.
Besides, wasn’t it Nixon who reduced the speed limit to save energy?
Besides, Obama is not stupid…like Reagan. He’s not going to do things to make life more difficult…on purpose.
Don’t underestimate Obama’s sense of the pulse of the nation. I believe he has a sincere intention to help the country, not make things difficult for people. I think he’s been very centrist, because he has to be in order to win the election.
Just sayin’ (I’m stupid, I’m sure)…
Maybe I’m a lemming.
yep – sometimes I just skip comments. No joy, no hope, glass not half full but empty. I look forward to the Obama administration. He has much to learn and I have confidence that he will.
Good thing the founding fathers didn’t adhere to your line of thought. My parents as well.
It’s the “critical perspective” really big in the English department.
(LS) you heard that Petro heard from Demi?
Twain, I’m with you.
Sorry, common misspelling which comes up when you google. The downside of google.
The other item you cite was, as you show, repealed during the Carter Admin, which is when financial market dereg began. Don’t see how that’s relevant at this late date. Do you think reinstating caps on deposit rates would be a good idea?
My major point is that the “banks” are now under banking regulation and I can’t see the point in risking political capital on dead dogs.
No! Is everything okay?
Good Evening Ian and Firedogs,
to date Senator Obama has shown us flashes of FDR – I found his remarks yesterday to be a substantial step in the right direction – we shall see.
ian @ 19 – damn. really wanted you to disagree with me on that one.
Petrocelli @ 20 – see ian’s 19. i don’t plan to “wait and see” because i think we citizens are responsible for doing what we can so that it doesn’t happen. granted, i haven’t lived most of my life according to that precept. so i have a lot of catching up to do.
I have been thinking since the crisis started that maybe McCain should win and have to clean up the mess the Rethugs created.
I will vote Obama but if things are bad and getting worse, I just hope he is up for it.
In that case, we’re DOOMED!!!
Lol.
Yeah, she and the family are fine. They were evacuated yesterday and hopefully will be allowed home today
Me either. FDR once told someone-I forget who-”I agree with you-now go out there and make me do it.” What this means to me is activism, agitation, pushing the Overton Window to the left, so he can do what he needs to do and know he will be politically covered.
McCain/Palin could never, ever, ever, ever have the intelligence combined to fix the mess that Bushco have left us.
We need a brain.
i should have written “concerned” not scared.
Oh, thank Goddess!
I’ve always been an optimist and I believe that every day is not only a gift but a chance to do something good. And I don’t understand just pounding away on anyone. Enough, already.
so you don’t wait to see what he’ll do before the griping begins?
Still applies somewhat. You are concerned with quite a bit, which is fine but how about seeing in which direction the ship goes before you start worrying about it hitting the iceberg?
Here, hear!!!
The only way is up at this point, and up won’t happen with more of the same.
The meltdown has distracted from other major issues, such as education, healthcare, peak energy, and global warming. I know everyone was plenty scared at the prospect of a McCain Presidency but as that possibility fades it is important to remember what we knew before, that Obama is no progressive. He will get us out of Iraq, maybe, slowly. His Middle East, Cnetral and South Asian policy (Israel, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan) is bellicose. His healthcare plan is lame. He backed the FISA Amendments Act so he is not a friend to our Constitutional rights. His support of the Paulson bailout shows he is more a friend of Wall Street than Main Street.
In short, I have yet to see Obama take a single progressive stand on any issue no matter how insignificant. I think our country needs progressive answers to its problems for the simple reason we are about the last group still willing to do the math and back solutions because they work not because they fit a particular ideology.
It rules the College of Education as well..”We want you to develop your critical thinking skills, so you’ll agree with us.”
I’m there with ya
my baggage (some fundamentalist church stuff), but i can’t be comforted by other’s beliefs if i can’t find reasons to agree. many thanks for trying though. appreciate it and hope you are completely correct.
ok
I think the reason I have always loved Biden is that he has this sort of gleeful optimism even with all he has been through. He seems to enjoy the good fight and does it well. He will be a great VP.
Selise. More Bushco is NOT an option…if that were to happen…we’re doomed for sure. At least we have a chance with change. Yes…I know…but just wait until the entire dynamics change. The energy must and will change…and we’ll hold their feet to the fire. Bushco is way too ingrained…besides…President Sarah Palin???!! Runaway, runaway!!!
I seem to hear a lot of rumblings about Robert Rubin. I knew his political history, but only recently discovered his 26 year run with Goldman Sachs. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss?
Some people are not happy unless they are complaining about something or looking for the cloud around the silver lining.
My family motto:
“Whuh?”
The mechanisms of power are the same, regardless of who wields them.
Above all, the Prince must be feared.
Obama is not part of the old school. He is not going to get into office and act like the status quo…he’s played his poker perfectly. Get real.
In fact the Founding Fathers were some of the most deeply pessimistic politicians our country’s ever had. Some of them were outright paranoid. Their fear of royal government led them to declare independence. Their fear of monarchy and empire, their deeply pessimistic view that all republics end in dictatorship, led them to design the Constitution the way they did.
If you’re going to reference them, all you’ll do is reinforce Ian’s point that a healthy skepticism and an unwillingness to settle for something less than what we know we can get is a good way to approach politics.
KO talked about the ACORN bullcrap. More of this please
That man does not go out in front of thousands and thousands of people every day risking his life in order to be a patsy or shill for the powers that be.
He’s the bravest candidate that has ever run for President.
I will take a leader who I agree with half the time, rather than a leader I disagree with all the time …
For the next 8 years, there is going be a constant drumbeat about Obama not living up to a higher standard … some of that will come from the Bill Bennetts of the world and some will come from our side …
Pessismism does not lead you to declare independence, travel to europe for support against all odds and then try to forge a never before seen govt.
I reference them to make a point. Your interesting take does not take away from that.
please note – that’s exactly what i did. it’s not like we have no evidence.
we have 30 years of trajectory to look at. and i think i do see a direction on: environment, economy, democracy, investment (everything from r&d to education), military, and many other issues.
maybe i’m wrong about that. wish someone would try to convince me though instead of, well, what i think you call griping.
pessimism says why bother and optimism says we have to try
Exactly. No one is perfect, but I don’t for a minute believe that Obama as one iota of the evil intentions that Bushco has and has demonstrated. He’ll make mistakes, of course, as they all do, but at least he’s friggin’ intelligent. Chance favors the prepared mind.
Believe me, if Obama does indeed win, I will be doing the Snoopy dance in the front yard, before I settle in to serious drinking…sleep off the hangover the next day..and then start pushing. I’m not “only happy when complaining”…I’ll be thrilled to death when i can stop complaining.
One of the reasons I vote is so I can complain.
that is Obama’s trajectory? 30 years? really?
Or the reverse.
RonD…LOL…you nailed that one!
hmmm if I was calling you a griper, i would have attached your name to the comment.
You want people to convince you of someting that you don’t believe in, or?
Wow, that’s a first for me … the founding fathers were paranoid ?
ROFL
Never been my perception of them but all are welcome to interpretation.
KO reaming McCain …
Happens all the time.
Mother Nature will settle the whole deal in the end. Better go hug a tree…I’m not kidding!
Yes, she tore out of her place early yesterday morning and is staying at her mom’s. They are all fine, even the turtle!
Selise. What are you afraid of?
What are the options?
Sometimes you just are so dang hot you have to jump in the water. We already know what the “other” water is..it is water that boils people like frogs.
We need fresh water.
We are the People. We have the Power.
OT But Keith Olbermann just read John McCain the riot act for his and his campaign’s attempted linking Barak Obama to Terrorist!! Keith sure knows how to make a Point!!
If words were weapons, McCain would need a Bunker tonight !
random thought – being concerned and criticizing obama do not preclude enjoying the gifts of each day. especially the joy in finding others who care too and want to work for something that is better.
Hi Petro! And a public thanks for emailing me about demi.
damn right. and it should come from our side. Just imagine what this crew would have done had we been together in 1999 when Clinton was about to sign the repeal of Glass-Steagall . . .
I share everyone’s hopes here for Senator Obama. my .02 is Ian is keeping it real. vigilance is the cost of citizenship
lol. run away indeed! happily that possibility is looking less likely with every day.
The concern troll posts in web forums devoted to its declared point of view and attempts to sway the group’s actions or opinions while claiming to share their goals, but with professed “concerns“
My pleasure, I knew how worried you were about her …
Why don’t we wait until Obama wins and actually DOES something as president before tearing him limb from limb?
hey, kids, this is the gop we’re talking about.
don’t count your votes before they’re cast.
for instance, if this acorn meme catches on, obama could find himself back to a neck and neck w/mcmuffin.
let’s not be appointing a cabinet just yet.
I think the fear is that we are about to be fooled again…and as Hugh pointed out above, there are good reasons to so think. But-I think it was Raven who said to me a long time ago-with Obama, there is very little to lose, seeing where we are and what the alternatives are, and possibly much to gain.
Seems like the best bet on the table to me, keeping in mind that the House always wins.
I love it when Keith lets loose!! He always puts into words what I am felling some of these assholes running for office in our country !! I know Petro you are in Canada and just are having a blast watching this American Comedy show!
Is Demi OK I missed the update??
your right, it doesn’t.
Random thought – we are all working towards the same goal but are taking different roads to get there. your road is not my road and my road is not yours
I’m laughing a lot less since we got our own NeoCon leader … that and seeing the apathy of Canadians keeping this d*ckhead in office …
Yes, they’re all safe !
i think you did @ 58.
ah, i was referring to the past 30 years for our country.
Exactly…and we are going to keep on fighting for what is just and right..no matter who is in office.
We have the right to the power…we just have to implement it and stop letting these people decide everything for us. First of all though, we have to get rid of anything that stinks of Bushco…then we’ll have a chance.
It’s like rearranging the fish tank when the fish start fighting…when you rearrange the tank…they lose their territory and have to get along to survive…that is how you can influence them.
I was just taking a break from ad hominem attacks. I’ll get back on it most ricky tic.
Great news!!
FDR talked about balancing the budget during the campaign, which was a stupid idea. After getting into office, FDR immediately dumped it. Best campaign promise he ever broke.
Likewise, paygo is a stupid idea when the economy is collapsing, because tax revenue plummets but human needs grow. Keynes had the right idea: balance the budget over the business cycle, and prepare the public in advance for this: when the economy comes back, get the money going the other way. States that were lent money in hard times would need to pay the money back to the federal government during boom times.
I think FDR’s best feature that he was committed to solutions, not to particular means. If a program didn’t work, he dumped it and tried something else. And he set up oversight bodies to ferret out fraud.
ROFL … ((( Raven )))
Please don’t dominate the rap Jack
if you got nothing new to say
If you please don’t back up the track
This train got to run today
Spent a little time on the mountain
Spent a little time on the hill
Heard some say better run away
Others say you better stand still
Any doctors in the house? Some prescriptions for medical marijuana may be helpful.
not so random thought – different roads is something to celebrate. like diversity. like a complex ecosystem with many niches. a good thing.
From the Urban Dictionary:
Not such a good thing when you are so divided that we end up with more Neocon dictatorship and the end of the USA as we know it…the country is hanging by a thread.
I was an Edwards guy in the primaries…but that thing you said really stuck with me, and I still think it is the best reason to vote for Obama that anyone has yet said to me. My thanks-I’ve passed it on to many, many, people. Even had one of the Obama people on campus repeat it to me, months later. I had to laugh..you might too, knowing there are Obama workers walking around USF Tampa, quoting you.
That is some scary shit right there.
What month is it?
this is, imo, just what we need.
Thanks Ian.
digg
but no one here is advocating supporting mcsame.
Unintended consequences are outcomes that are not (or not limited to) what the actor intended in a particular situation. The unintended results may be foreseen or unforeseen, but they should be the logical or likely results of the action. For example, students of history often conjecture that if the Treaty of Versailles had not imposed such harsh conditions on Germany, World War II would not have occurred. From this perspective, one might consider the war an unintended consequence of the treaty.
ian – that was a really interesting and, imo, important post. my apologies for contributing to taking the conversation away from that.
Touche !
A vote for anyone but Obama is a vote for McCain. I know that you don’t want McCain…but you were the one asking why people feel they way they do..
No worries.
Hey Ls I like that theory and I have seen it work in Tanks that I had some very large Cichlids and an 30″ Asian Arawana… was truly an ACTIVE Tank and I LOST more than a few fish due to fighting!! So I guess the lesson learned is that no matter how you change things there ARE still going to be some nasty results!!
Nope Wikipedia
Hahahaha!!!…I learned it from the fighting African Cichlids I used to have years ago too!!!
I see failing to criticize from the left in the same light as Obama’s tendency to say “you’re right” to McCain. If we don’t point out the parts we disagree with, we are not taking steps to correct the deficiencies. And just as we don’t agree with all his policies, he won’t agree with all our alternatives, but if we don’t voice the alternatives he has no reason to change his own stance at all.
Late as always and prolly way EPU’d …
Hey Ian did you catch these articles at the WSJ?
Then, Hank Greenberg looks a gift horse in the mouth and is pissing and moaning about the restrictions being placed on his government handout
Both articles linked here
WOW! These assholes Do. Not. Get It.
Obama’s “failure” to criticize McCain and to sometimes agree with him shows an immense talent for diplomacy, and that is what the entire world needs right now….some serious diplomacy and no more Yosemite Sams.
I’m going to selectively quote because Ian wrote so much.
Before going further I should say this is obviously only part of his plans, but it shows he’s pretty much a traditional Liberal on taxation ideas. Tax the rich more and raise the minimum wage & help unionization.
The one thing that stands out, which doesn’t fit, is expanding the military. I don’t get that. He might be scared to cut it back and possibly hurt some states, but on it’s own merits we need mostly to stabilize and fix our military, not grow it.
If this isn’t Liberal enough, then what exactly are you looking for?
Reading on, let’s see where Ian is going with this.
Please Ian, just what are those structural problems?
I haven’t seen him discuss the issue and I suspect the reason is that he wants to see what Congress begins to focus on, what are the serious problems as they see it. Besides, as with these other things it’s difficult for any candidate to create new policies in the midst of both a campaign and a crisis. I’m willing to give him time and I’m very happy to hear what the Democratic-led Congress comes up with.
Dude! That’s harsh.
Let’s see you walk a few steps in Obama’s shoes and learn to walk a tight rope while taming a tiger and stomping out a fire at the same time. Heh.
Well, no, you haven’t given us time to get around to thinking. But, I’m game. what have you got?
Good start. Make the system flow toward the good. Of course, it helps if you have a big political campaign where you make the argument for what that good might be. Without public support you would become dictatorial and we don’t need government shaping society that way.
I like a lot of those, but not all.
“by buying up all the most fuel efficient vehicles”
you take them out of the hands of the public you want to learn to buy and use these vehicles.
Don’t just ‘buy up all’, order more for government fleets and encourage state & local governments to switch over to natural gas or other alternative fuels in exchange for more help with their deficits.
“by spending massively on public transit”
if it’s done in the right places to replace oil-based transportation of the most useless kind. Can you imagine sitting in traffic for hours, idling away gasoline for no reason? COMMUTING needs to be more electric trains and/or buses (both public and private if they don’t compete with one another).
“by doing a massive fiber build-out and encouraging businesses to telecommute”
You’re imaginative, but this kind of second-tier thinking won’t get through Congress because it isn’t direct enough. You need to classify public or wan internet as a plus for business and get Blue dog support that way.
“He reduces the speed limit to 55 on all roads.”
And loses all his House seats in 2 years. C’mon, be realistic. People like to go faster to get on with life instead of idling on the highway to nowhere. Change vehicles to electric/hybrid/alternative fuels and speed won’t be the issue.
“He starts charging people for driving during rush hour.”
And, again, loses Congress. Don’t charge people who already distrust and even hate government. Let gasoline prices rise if you want that effect.
“He encourages businesses to have workers work 9 hour days and take off a long weekend every two weeks.”
If you can convince them this might be very effective, cheap and popular. Distributing commuters on the highways to different hours can also ease traffic.
“He massively invests in green energy.”
In all ways, but Obama is already suggesting more small biz loans!
“He sets up a program to refit every building in the US so that it uses as little energy as possible, or even produces energy.”
“every” is unrealistic, but if you can find new technologies which compete or beat oil-based electric, then focus your energies on one or two applications put in many places and the government and business can understand it and apply it. Tax credits for alternative energy and small biz loans help in this area. But, government hearings and research into what best to focus on might help get it done.
“He changes the energy network so every American can sell power to the power company.”
Again, “every” might be wishful thinking. But, NEW construction should be aimed toward evolving to your ideal position. HOW to set up law and regulation to get us moving that way.
More important on the grid is to expand it to enable more alternative power ‘factories’ to get plugged in, so they can contribute. More American energy will be a big win all around. Besides, using commercial energy is a more natural fit for Americans who aren’t used to being individual providers.
That kind of government activism is fringy here in America. But, at least in the area of broadband Internet there is good reason to believe business won’t do it everywhere and government should feel free to get it going, and then perhaps spin it off as a private enterprise.
Government might consider that for some other situations too. Start something, spin it off (go public) and then watch it go.
Americans aren’t so crazy about more government involvement in the private sector. They’re queasy about what’s happening now. A Republican friend of mine said the other day that Capitalism is dead. I calmed him down, but he’s very upset. We need to let government govern and offer a ladder (or a superhighway or a wireless broadband internet) to help people help themselves.
Obama has stayed away from that kind of massive change and I suspect it’s both political and practical. Incremental changes are safer politically and economically. But, as you make clear, the changes have to be toward something clearly defined as better.
Government intervention…scary stuff.
Re-regulate where it has harmed Society, but what’s your justification for interfering with the freedom of Americans who haven’t done harm? I’m not interested in regulating away greed. It’s part of who we are, whether you or I like it or not. It’s also part of our Dutch and British heritage.
Yes, it is frustrating watching the car companies floundering instead of producing something great. If it weren’t so expensive to build cars we might see more competition from new upstarts. So, government needs to enable that. What does government know about building cars anyway?
Sounds like you’re offering to duel tomorrow at noon. But, you’re certainly right to say WARNING WARNING, NO MORE OF THE SAME. Circumstances seem to guarantee that thought is never far from our minds. We just have to keep pushing Obama et al to remember it when they devise their policies.
Are you suggesting another round of Darwinian policy-making? I think we can focus on problems a bit better than that. Remember, FDR didn’t get us out of the Depression until WWII ended. We certainly don’t want that long drawn out nightmare — the Japanese learned that lesson too.
===========
Look at the large money flows and you’ll see a lot going abroad for oil. We don’t need that drag. A lot goes to China and other countries producing cheap goods. We don’t want to cut back on that very much, but we could perhaps sell more of our stuff abroad.
Housing problems have to be regulated and pushed back to normal.
Health Care has to be reformed to slow the massive shift of wealth from most to few people. Over time it would destroy us as surely as the oil problem.
The old ‘class warfare’ problem still exists. Wages are stagnant, but workers are more productive and make a few much more wealthy. We don’t need that kind of shift in the distribution of wealth. It isn’t necessarily horrible for people to get rich, just so long as they don’t destroy everybody else while getting there. So, unions and minimum wage and more opportunity for new small businesses are some good things to do.
America is quite resilient, but these very large flows of wealth away from America and toward the few is unhealthy. We need government to regulate those as much as the housing/mortgage industry.
Funny you bring that up!! While getting driven for blood test on comes on the Radio an add for some university here in the Bay Area touting the opportunities in the filed of Ta Da Cannabis and how the medical dispensing has generated over $100 million in Tax revenues and how Alcohol is much more dangerous and causes all kinds of dangerous behavior and deaths. But that Maryjane has never even caused even ONE overdose and is completely safe and that society needs to redress the drug laws so as to make Maryjane legal again as it was for years!! Oh thats right, that all happened because some scary BROWN people were smoking it and jiving on it so it must be dangerous!!
jesus h christ on a kiddy car, this place is out of fucking control
Isn’t that one of the extras the Senate added in the bailout bill?
I am so glad you are here. You say things that I don’t and I get a huge laugh. And it is out of control, sometimes. What I would really like is when Obama makes a great speech or does well in a debate they we here at the Lake get a chance to enjoy the moment instead of the happiness being stomped all over.
“that we here at the Lake” oops
I miss them also!! We have an 15 yr old Iguana and when he goes I have been promised I can buy my 180 – 200 gal glass tank again. And ya know some times I feel like leaving the front door open for the Iguana to go on WalkAbout!!
Thanks for the post. It is a good reminder of how far this country has been pulled into goofy, dysfunctional, fantasyland reactionary, and wrong, economics. I am slightly more optimistic than Ian, if only slightly.
If Ian is still here, I have some questions and comments.
RE: 2) He wants to reinstitute pay-go rules. If he follows through on this, there will be few new large programs.
– Doesn’t this depend on how fiscal responsibility is defined? I would prefer it be defined as a balanced budget on average, over business cycles. That leaves room for maneuver, I think, and if the new administration speaks common sense on this rule, the Blue Dogs will have to explain any less responsible position. I think the Obama camp has shown it understands how financial crises damage the economy, and where the real costs are, by its insistence that a middle class stimulus cannot be sacrificed to the false economies of budget austerity in a recession.
5) He wants to expand the military.
– I agree that this is a bad sign. But isn’t Obama talking more about increasing troops, rather than expensive weapons systems? Wouldn’t the former be less damaging than the latter? But you are correct. And I have read that the Pentagon is planning to request a real feast of boondoggles from the next President, so this will be a tough fight. Biden was very aggressive on the cost of misplaced military budget priorities, and he loves to flog his 9/10 2001 speech mentioning it, so I do have hopes that even if this unnecessary cost cannot be avoided, at least things will be nudged in the right direction.
“that Obama won’t want to make really fundamental changes and tighten regulation up brutally. He won’t, say, reinstitute Glass-Steagall.”
–Here I must place my faith in Obama’s economic team. I read that Stiglitz has come on board, and he is adamant that far reaching regulatory reform is essential.
On targeted vs. untargeted fiscal stimulus:
–don’t many of Obama’s jobs plans for rebuilding middle class do double duty as targeted fiscal simulus programs that increase real savings and capital investment?
—
PS. I am interested in Ian’s analysis of Paulson Mark II plan for financial crisis. So far it seems odd to me. Do Wells Fargo or BoA need recapitalization? I would think a more efficient plan would be to ID banks and other firms that are insolvent, and deal with them first. The whole idea of getting max bang for the buck is reassure private capital that banks must either function as banks, or admit they are bankrupt, then triage the bankrupts, recapitalize those who are not hopelessly broke and might serve a useful purpose in the future, and force them to open their books and write down the debt. Part of the idea is to ID the bankrupts, and either get rid of, or rehabilitate them, to attract more private capital, and to persuade banking industry that that they cannot postpone the writedowns indefinitely. That will bring in private capital.
Seems like Paulson and the administration just cannot admit to themselves that there is a real insolvency crisis that must be faced directly: lots of bad loans, lots of worthless securities (toxic ‘assest” based on bad loans, based on inflated valuations of real capital stocks. Ideological blinders? They just cannot face the fact that the unregulated financial market totally messed up?
Seems like a textbook case of a market for lemons to me. I mean how bad does it have to get before you admit your pet ultra free market scheme doesn’t work. I have always thought of a big market for lemons problem as leading to a slowly shrinking market with contracts that do less and less (eg, commercial health insurance). But here we have the extreme case where the market simply stopped. What more has to happen? If this were like steam boilers in the 19th century that blew up and killed scores of people regularly, would they then admit that their ultra-free market voluntary spontaneous regulatory self-policing nonsense was wrong?
Yep. He’s a traditional politician and a cautious one at that. It’s useful politically, as for Clinton before, but I wonder who his advisers will be and how flexible he might be at governance. We’ll see.
I am not trying to promote the use of drugs. But research should be allowed. It is claimed the “herb” reduces stress and there is lots of anger and stress even in the Lake today. But Alcohol shrinks the brain.
i stand corrected. i did say gripe.
nothing wrong with a lil herb *g*
OTOH, a too quick settlement leaves all the issues unresolved and just waiting a lit match to rekindle into full war.
Take the Israeli-Palestinian conflict for example. If they have a peace treaty and stop fighting that’s nice, but it doesn’t actually resolve their issues. They need to resolve real issues with real solutions or just fight it out to the death. But, on both sides there’s a majority for peace, so how do you get the wild ones to fight it out or to accept peace?
Wow. I thought I was the only one that saw Obama as essentially a Reaganite. He’s liberal compared to neo-conservativism, but he’s still essentially an 80’s Republican.
Yep! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21982584 AND http://everything.hemp.com/detail.aspx?PRODUCT=302 All that an you are not smoking the Herb!!
But you know it has been used for thousands of years by man for medicinal purposes! Oh and the “Brown Musicians in the twenties”
Good thing that there are other candidates to vote for a la green party
Forgot to say that I do agree that Obama is a centrist, and also agree that he has not hidden his centrism at all -it has been there for everyone to see for months and months, in any details he has ever provided for his economic plans.
Question is whether Obama will be a good centrist who insists on policy based on sound principles, or a wishy washy DC village centrist who compromises willy nilly just to be in some incoherent “middle”. The former would a step in the right direction, and may lead towards willingness of US to go with good policies, as the policies will tend to work more often than not. The latter will lead to more incoherent failure, which would lead to the nightmare scenario that you and others have mentioned of a populist reactionary authoritarian government in four years.
It’s unthinkable to lower the speed limit – that tells me that people drive a large enough distance that the 10-20 mph difference between 55 mph and current speed limits gives them a perception they have more time.
Someone that commutes 42 miles to work and the same to come home I can attest that the difference in time does have some bearing – 1:18 total commute time @ 65 mph, 1:31 @55 mph or 13 minutes difference. That’s time that could be spent reading the newspaper or preparing food, and it comes to more than an hour each week. (in my case the roads I use I’m going 50 or less most of the time because one lane and two lane mountain roads really aren’t safe at 65+ mph).
55 mph is also associated with President Carter, and I think there is a psychological aspect to driving faster – slower drivers are looked on as deficient in some way, like they can’t keep up with the fast crowd. The psychology is a significant part of why it’s unthinkable to lower the speed limit – it means facing lifestyle changes that are extremely unpalatable to the US psyche.
perfectly good word
Shoot me now…Obama is not a Reaganite…Oy
He is centrist in order to get elected. He is not a Reaganite…
Have you ever watched the movie The Freshman? It’s a fun story.
If you think these comments are bad now, wait ’til he’s in office …
I’m drinking some catnip tea. Makes one very mellow.
Life is too short. We at least have a chance.
I may be driven to take some ‘herbs’. I kid. (maybe not)
It’s my birthday, and Mr. LS just came home sick as a dog…eeeek…I just made chicken soup for him in the slow cooker, and we are both drinking Tequilla!!
Heh, heh.
No but if it is about an Iguana on the loose I have been there done that more than once, we have found Icky( the Iguana) down the street crossing the street and one of my neighbors attempting to use a plastic garbage bag to grab him until she got one look at the CLAWS!! Now that was funny to see! He had figured if the front screen wasn’t fully latched he could push his way through the screen. He has been in back yards, up in trees and so forth… I can’t count the times he has Made his way to FREEDOM…BUT we have always gotten him back… but maybe just once he could truly get lost…. nah too much grief here at the house…. HE IS a FAMILY member ya know!!
feliz aniversarios ! aww I’m so sorry that he is sick but tequila is ALWAYS nice *g*
LS, happy birthday and many more!
MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW !!!!
I missed the bit where Ian repated his Obama=Reagon line. I don’t agree with that. But, I do really think Obama is true centrist, who will go iwth market based solutions first, and we will get more Bill Clinton style reforms. I hope with some attention paid to where the old Washington consensus has been proven wrong over the last ten years.
But, that is where FDE started, and it is better than the alternative which seems to be dangerous nonsense (House GOP) or a combo of dangerous nonsense and opportunistic gimmicks (McCain).
Sick or not happy birthday and you make Mr Ls have fun on YOUR birthday!! It is your birthday ya know!!
((((LS))))
Had never thought of Teq and chicken soup together – sounds like a winner.
Happy Birthday – balloons and a big cake for you.
catnip is not just for cats, you know. If you ever have problems falling asleep, drink a cup
Is it leaves? Sounds nice.
Never a problem getting to sleep if I have a problem it is staying asleep. And sometimes never truly getting to the full rem state so you don’t really know if you slept or not!!
It’s the same stuff they give to cats but it is an herb. You can find it at most herb/spice shpos or health stores.
Happy Birthday LS !
I’m sorry to say it, but I used to look at FDR to see Christy’s wonderful posts on the Fitzgerald investigation. Now I look at it in fascinating horror to see what ridiculous crap Ian is spewing forth trying to subvert Obama’s candidacy, such as equating Obama with Ronald Reagan. Please, please, Ian, please, go back to Canada until after the election. The fact is, we have America to work with here. We have American voters, then we have the American Constitutional system, including Congress. We have American corporatism (which I hope is diminished in power under a Democratic regime, but which currently plays a role in the election via the corporate media, etc.). Please, Ian, please direct your overwrought concern trolling toward the very real possibility that, despite the polls, McCain could win if voter turnout, electoral interference, etc., doesn’t go our way. Thanks, Ian. Come back after November 4.
But we better start looking at the bloated war budget and fast. The entrenched budgets for old weapons systems are still being paid for twenty-thirty-or more years later. It is not a sacred cow and we must tame the Military Industrial complex or die a slow painful death as a world power. We spend more than most industrialized countries in the world COMBINED on these weapons. Some say it’s the only thing we export anymore. To our shame and our destruction. That’s what brought down several other empires. I hope Obama is smart enough to deal with it.
We just have to hope that he has the sense non god gave a turnip and is able to see the facts that Ian posted up there. I’m thinking that he realizes a lot of this already but he doesn’t think it’s politically electable. Who knows.. and his history IS as a moderate.
That is NOT the definition of a ‘concern troll’
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
The positive responses seem to me constructive. Disrupting a respected source on economic policy with ad honminem attcks seems against FDL policy…if I were correct the site monitor would have said so so I am out of step here.
Some sides of some of you have been revealed I was unawares off.
However the mood reminds me of the McInsane campaign of attacks. Some commentors like to see their names and hear themselves without really taking the time to think about what they are saying.
Mars is in retrograde (full moon to boot). Please exercise caution and respect the poster who is offering a point of view and a lot of research.
Adult behavior will get your points aired better. Don’t slide into emotional states remain objective and rational there is a lot to learn.
I ca make that my bar as well. O have resisted the urges some of the commenters have generated.
Analysing our options on economice policy must be done. A public discussion is a rare and great priveledge that the blogishere provides. If Gloria and others do not want to participate then don’t disrupt just don’t.
I guess that is a nice way of putting it as I do not want to contribute to the angst that is being injected. Have to wonder why.