The economy? Still tanking. On Wednesday, eCAHNomics said something intriguing:
Employment depends on consumer spending. Yes, it works the other way around too, but when the economy is dropping, you’ve got to get consumers who still have jobs to increase spending which then, in turn, leads to higher employment (i.e., employment is a lagging indicator)….
Then I stumbled across this from Robert Reich:
After the market closed today, Bank of America announced a significant deterioration in people’s ability to repay credit-card and other consumer debt.
…Consumers in the real economy are coming to the end of their capacities to keep spending. They can’t take on any more debt. And with the costs of energy, food, and health insurance all soaring…They’re pulling in their belts. They’re leaving the malls. They’re not buying a new car or TV or anything else they can do without.
For years, regardless of the business cycle, American consumers were the Energizer Bunnies of the world economy. Their spending kept it going. But now the Energizer Bunnies have turned into scared rabbits, and they’re going back into their holes….we need to get money back into the pockets of average American consumers — including major investments in infrastructure, affordable health care, and a more progressive tax code.
Am curious, are you seeing this, too: folks buying less at the store, more staples like beans and rice and less of the "extras"; home working in their yards rather than hitting the increasingly empty malls?
If consumers are the engine that drives the whole shebang, doesn’t increased infrastructure investment, leading to more jobs, money to spend…doesn’t that make sense? If not, why not? And isn’t consumers wanting to reduce their debt load, stop rampant spending, and try to save a little actually a good thing — unless, of course, your hefty profit margin depends on them staying in over their heads? What am I missing?
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its ugly out there
good morning,to have shrUb come out with his pronouncements,is decidedly BEARISH
The Futures are being crushed DESPITE intervention by the PPT. Trust me, this is totally freaking everyone out, and the selling will be panic selling. Bush’s 10:30 speech may be to inform us that the banks and markets are closed for a few days.
Otherwise, the GAME today is to let it drop on massive volume only to have the PPT step in, along with an announcement to reinstate the short selling ban immediately, causing a massive reversal, in hope of closing it in the green.
Either way, the concept of a “market” is history – and has been for the past few years. It’s all just smoke and mirrors.
Been there for months.
I MUST give you all a laugh today,i feel it is my duty as an ex-cheerleader
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxL7MKsGoPo
The last 2 times Scrub was on my TV “calming” the masses, the TV pudits didn’t even bother commenting on what he said. The man is soooo irrelevant at this time.
Go long food & wine.
Take delivery.
When consumer spending is down, the government should inject money into the economy thru public works projects, etc. Where they are going to get the money (printing press?) is a whole nuther matter.
Thanks, Christy. Our teenage daughter had a bit of an adjustment this morning when my wife told her we would pay for getting her hair cut today but not for getting it blown dry. When she started to protest, she was told how much we have lost in the market recently (probably 40% over the last 6 months). After about five minutes of silence, our daughter agreed. What she doesn’t know is that is just the beginning. I don’t know how much, but her lifestyle is definitely going to change.
all his friends moved to Isle of White,and the CAYMANSand left dipshit holding the bag
BWAHAhahahahahahaaha
pure FDR……green companies
a win,win situstion
situation,uhm how do you spell it????/ brain fart
Here, too — I’ve been seeing this for close to a year here in WV…
good morning all,
i’m working all the time, principally to pay my health insurance and mortgage company.
How true: One of those pundits said “He (W) had phoned it in.” At least that means you do not have to hear much from him.
Morning, Tommy! Good to see you!
Very much so. Each business owner I’ve spoken with has mentioned a downturn in customer spending. Two of our largest county employers are laying off hundreds of workers, which only make things worse.
At a candidates’ forum last night, the county commissioner candidates all spoke of reducing county expenditures, but there isn’t a lot of waste. They all spoke of their priorities on what they would try to keep funded to the best of their ability. As the incumbent mentioned, “It is going to get real ugly” and that is with the county having a 1.3 million dollar shortfall now.
Thanks Christy.
digg
Let’s see now, we can’t kill our way out of Afghanistan and we can’t our way out of this jam? Sounds like a pickle to me.
I keep wondering when it’s going to bottom out…but I don’t think we are nearly there yet. It’s just a gut feeling, not any one data point but just a “looking at things as a whole” sort of thing. Other folks feeling that, too?
unchartered territory
un CHARTED teritory…need more coffee…bbl
Good morning, Christy-
My younger brother is a trucker, and he said something very interesting to me. Trucks are being parked, drivers being laid off…and he says,”Don’t people know what happens when the trucks stop running? The cities starve…and there’s no back-up system.”
Scary.
Rice, beans, flour, other non-perishable food, fuel, medicine, and ammo. Good investments, according to him.
Good Morning Christy and Firedogs,
anecdotal reporting from one who earns from consumer spending – been making quite a good living as a waitress in a small town cafe:
just as with $4/gal gas – that 777 point drop wrought havoc with our lunch business – dinner is only about half as bad
- my take home has been slashed by 40% easy. incidence of sharing meals is waaay up.
- used to get a 10% tip maybe once a week and now it is at least twice a shift.
- noticed about a year ago an increase in Discover card use – easily see 4 times as many as we use to (we think it signals folks using a 3rd card when the first two are tapped)
- and oh yes, the fear and anxiety is very real and runs through all class and income levels of our customer base
we have been blessed in that mr cbl has a steady job and a good guy employer – in manufacturing of all things :D thank you mr jeebus.
Me. Lot’s of anxiety in the world. Time to get back to basics. Big Time.
Yikes…opening bell.
oy
hi Demi
Hi Ron. It’s a good thing my family enjoys the soup I make. I think we’re all going to lose a little weight.
a big Texas Howdy to (((Tommy Yum))) !
Hi dear. Chin up?
and ive been stocking frozen rice and beans for a year….feed my animals with it too
FWIW, per Ian, Historical Bottom for a Bear Market about DOW 6,000
GM saying “Bankruptcy not an option.”
Christy…good thing you got that new bread maker. You shopped and your family will have good food.
i think i take comfort that we are all in the same boat,and MUST PADDLE TOGETHER!
We aren’t. None of the fundamental problems associated with the meltdown have been addressed. These are:
1. The derivative threat
2. The credit crunch
3. The mortgage crisis
4. Re-regulation of markets
I think it’s 100% tied to the credit markets right now. Unless and until they can fix the total gridlock in the credit market, the only direction is down. Personally, I think it’s toast.
If it’s paper, people don’t want it.
Hey demi! Up early, aren’t you?
No spending outside of the necessities here. Hand-me-downs, Goodwill stores, coupons and generics, and it’s still a struggle.
Good girl. I’m thinking about my pets too. I’ll have to look online later for a make your own dog food recipe.
okay….Titanic CAN limp to the ship repair yard at 6000
Hi Christy and fellow firepups…haven’t posted in a long time. Been lurking quite a bit though. I love the new digs…
I have found that among most of my friends and family members, shopping has the allure of a big martini the morning after a big party.
That’s true — we’ve been enjoying some very yummy whole-grain bread lately. And the smell that goes through the whole house while it’s baking is worth it just for that. *g*
Unfortunately, I agree with you. We’ve now got school districts talking about four day weeks and no afterschool buses(we have a huge school district – 600 sq. mi., so the afterschool trip is very long). School districts that ran a separate bus for the elementary basically are only running one bus morning and evening. The people who are making money right now up here are the people who deal in wood and coal stoves and outdoor wood furnaces, chainsaw dealers, etc. The air is going to get a whole lot dirtier before it gets any better. Our good luck so far is that it has not gotten really cold yet – 36 this morning – so people can still just put on an extra sweater indoors at night. People at my husband’s work are doing the ‘how tough are you — how far can you push off turning on the heat?” contest sort of thing.
Hi Tommy Yum, I hope things are all ok. If not, a blast of good mojo for you.
Notice, EPU has a diary.
And Christy, I’ve noticed things have been not getting better for a lot of people in the CT New Haven area. For sale signs. (let’s not talk white elephants). . No money from the state.School closings. Gas station owners talking of selling and moving to XYZ, because they only make money off of cigarettes and people complain too much. A lot of people talking of premature retirement. More gardens with edibles, including my own. . . .
In fact it seems like we’re on the verge of something quite miserable.
Who can sleep?
Not good..
‘Japan’s Yamato Life collapses amid global financial upheavals’
http://news.xinhuanet.com/engl…..174511.htm
“Go out and shop” is remindful of the FIRST Depression — as seen in this delightful number from Gold Diggers of 1935 with Dick Powell and
the ever-lovely Gloria Stuart.
go to my site…havent updated lately but recipes are there
http://shaggydogfarms.com/
I live off the 495 belt in Mass. Family went out to eat last night (TGIF-sucked)and across the street there was a 6 mnth old Staple and Bed bath, beyond and the parking lot had about 12 cars combined. the restaurant didn’t exactly have a line forming in front either!
Here I’m seeing exponentially fewer people in stores and dramatically more “sale” items on the shelves.
People are really cutting back on anything that’s not necessary. As one example, schools in this state have to fund their own transportation for sports and extracurriculars. The costs are obviously way up but the gate receipts they use to underwrite their costs are way down. Lots of people just can’t afford these extras and the amount they spend on concessions if they do attend is off.
This is a huge deal to principals who are trying desperately not to cut programs in the middle of the year. And no, parents can’t chauffeur for the smaller sports and/or cheerleading because of insurance concerns.
Also, the school counselors are dumbfounded about how the credit crisis will affect aid packages when the college financial aid offers come in. My guess is it won’t be pretty.
oo, interesting Ron — I got a call from my sister earlier this week, asking me why she can’t find frozen blueberries in her grocery stores down in N. Virginia. She’s a bright girl but sometimes can’t see the forest for the trees, so I explained that the vast majority of frozen blues come from Michigan and Wisconsin – and it’s just too damn expensive to drive those babies in reefers all the way to Virginia now…suggested she hit all of her local farmers markets and CSAs to see if anyone has any fruit that she can freeze herself(though the season might be long over now…). There is a certain (it’s small, but I take what I can get)irony for me – her family has laughed at us (the country cousins) for years now because we freeze, can and dry food every year. I explained that the days of strawberries in January, etc. are probably over…
Dow under 8000.
Tommy Yum, good to see you.
Thinking of {{{{Barbara and her David}}}
Brooks was wrong. BushCo is the cancer on America. Palin is a collateral symptom.
Yes spending on your infrastructure makes sense – all the more so as a lot of it is rapidly approaching third world standard. (Did you know that rural South Africa has better telephone connectivity??? – I didn’t but I’m not surprised. I learnt that little fact at a “mfi is going home dinner” party last night.)
The big question is can you afford it? I have my doubts. I have had those doubts for a long time which is why I dumped every investment in America a long long time ago. The economic meltdown is the result of insolvency not a lack of liquidity.
Christy – Are people in the states finally realising that when somebody “obtains credit” that what that really means is that they’re going into debt and that at some point they are going to have to repay the money they owe. That having deferred repayment in order to consume they are now going to have to defer consumption in order to repay? I would hope so. I would also hope that they remember exactly how painful it is to be burnt and learn a healthy scepticism not to mention a healthy dose of self-preservation in matters financial.
Off topic:
Read in full: This bulbous oblong of coiled rage came across as an appalling old waxwork
mornin’ all.
Dow is RACING downwards, ten minutes into the session.
A 10% drop (and it’s almost there already) shuts the whole thing down, doesn’t it?
Thank you so much. I’ve bookmarked it.
btw…love your name. Same as my daughter’s. :)
I’m going to share the link tomorrow morning at Christy’s Pull Up A Chair.
Christy!
I’m 57 and have lived through some of the previous hard economic periods, this one has me really scared. Wife and I spend all our income, including on 3 teen kids. Now, she may lose her job (not inflation related). For months we have cut out our once-frequent restaurant meals, even cut down on happy hour beer. We travel less and try to make short trips multi-purpose.
If she loses her job, we will cut back quite a bit on the kid’s activities, restaurants and travel. We likely will change how we eat. We have some livestock coming to harvest time, so will have some food to put up. The cows ate the garden this summer (not enough fence).
We don’t buy new cars, get used instead. Only bid purchase considering is a freezer for those cows…used at that.
Alarming is that the government offerings to deal with this are too late, inadequate and not considerate of us, the little people. Totally failed by my government—sad and disturbing.
Yes.
Public works spending as stimulus –absolutely; it looks like we might need it for as long as many projects would take. However:
Very disturbing short term credit crunch problems showing up, e.g. credit for trade disappearing, which kind of thing explains preoccupation with banking. Expect (hope for!) news from today’s G7/8 meeting. Immediate banking problems must be cleared up before we can get to consumer needs, but fortunately credit measures can be undertaken more quickly than almost anything else.
(naked capitalism blogged first on trade credit)
I would like to hope that folks are learning the “easy credit is not a good thing” lesson, but I’m not sure that’s true. We’ve always tried to be very skeptical of anything that seemed “too good to be true” because generally, the skepticism was warranted. But I just don’t know if this is a short-term lesson learned for the moment out of necessity, or a longer-term lesson really learned.
For the past few weeks we’ve been looking for a new car because our lease runs out soon, and there have been no other customers in the dealerships we have visited. It was spooky.
The Honda dealer knocked $6,000 off the price of a mini van just to get our business.
thank you…….i do rescue,and have fixed income….im so very worried about the critters…many people will put them in shelters or just turn them out,if they dont have food for them
As a people we have sustained an enormous loss. For tens of millions of us, plans for a better future have been crushed or, at a minimum, deferred.
As with any loss, the first reaction is denial. I can’t tell you how many people have told me they haven’t been opening the mailings containing their brokerage accounts or 401K plans. The next phase is going to be anger. That phase is going to be ugly and dangerous.
Check that “used freezer”contemplation against buying a new energy-efficient model. Often the cost savings you initially get from buying a freezer used is offset dramatically by the energy bills if its a guzzler. So do check that before you buy — my mom had that problem with an old freezer she got — just FYI.
have a mini van for my rescue job…..they REALLY sukkk gas …just sayin
Floyd Norris at the NYT has an article that echoes many of the ideas we have discussed here about how to address the current economic meltdown.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10…..ref=slogin
The problem remains that we are facing a terrible crisis and across the board in the political and economic spheres we have the most corrupt, incompetent leadership lacking all conviction to deal with it.
DOW has now recovered 500 points in about five minutes.
It’s bouncing like a super-ball pumped full of bad acid.
Well, I am making a concious choice to live more frugally and it mostly necissity, but also in a very small part from an ethical standpoint of consumerism, and disposability of so called durable goods,(the fridge quit this week, and the cost of repairing an 8 year old fridge turned out to be $500, for $100 more, we got a really nice replacement, however, I turned to my dad and said we aren’t figuring the long term costs here, filling up a landfill, supporting unfair labor practices in international countries, etc.)
Those thoughts make me a “bra-burning progressive dirty fracking feminazi hippie”. Just this week I had to make a decision on living space. I chose, much to the dismay of my parents to take up residence in a very rustic one room log cabin with small loft for sleeping quarters plus I have to go to the main house to use the bathroom and the kitchen. It’s very Laura Ingallish, and i am so happy with my decision. However, it boggles my parents’ and family’s mind that I would choose to live “in poverty” when I could do so much more, and have so much more. The thing is I don’t WANT more and in a family where my younger siblings and my father are all about convenience, and really nice name brand stuff, they can’t understand why I choose to live this way.
And I don’t know what the appropriate word(s) are here, I think it would be cognitive dissonance, and I have never got how we as Americans are told to stop spending and save every spare penny for our retirement, and yet when we do so, we are told that we are bad Americans and are sinking the economy by not spending our money.
Last year for the holidays, everyone got thoughtful gifts from my heart. I made a lot of things from vintage items that I found around the house and at thrift stores like a vintage wooden spool necklace, knitted gifts from my yarn stash, made baked goods and some fruit vinegars, and in some cases did things like organized my sister’s tupperware cupboard. For my efforts I got made fun of by my siblings and eye rolling from the sisters-in-laws because I could have picked up “real bath salts” at the dollar store rather than doing something much needed like putting together a salad with above mentioned fruit vinegar gift basket in a basket I got at the Salvation Army.
So, I guess I don’t get this “cut back and save” along “if you are frugal and stop spending you are killing the American/global economy.” I wish someone would explain it to me so I could get it. And yes, I have cut back because I only get a weekly stipend, for caring for my dying mother. This stipend includes living expenses, but it still isn’t very much by American standards, and yet I am so much better off than the global population as a whole. However, I would choose to live this way even if I did have all the resources at my disposal.
I’m seeing a lot of panic among elderly folks here. Living on a fixed income is tough enough — but living on an income that is shrinking rapidly is nearly impossible for a lot of these folks. I’m seriously worried about how folks are going to eat, buy their medicine and heat their homes this winter…
We’ve already had one dealership (Volvo) in town close its doors.
Trouble is, if we are spending all our government money on 2 wars, and now on bailing out fat-cats, there is no money left over for domestic infrastructure projects. Where will that money come from? Obama said it well, what are the trade-offs in bailing out wallstreet, what opportunity cost? (Then he voted for the bail-out anyway…)
The middle class can’t suffer more taxes, will congress get a spine and restore taxes on the wealthy? I think not.
people get out your SLOW COOKERS
BEAN and RICE are a complete protein….YOU CAN LIVE ON THIS FOREVER
ill be posting recipes!!!
Just made some navy bean soup in my slow cooker yesterday. :)
I thought they should close the markets last week and don’t understand why they didn’t. Just close they damn things for a month or so till they get this bail out package money out there. Now so much money has been lost…
Speaking of slow cookers, maybe I’ll do a “bring your frugal recipes and ideas” Pull Up A Chair tomorrow. Would folks enjoy that?
yummy
the recipes are endless
and guess what
EXTREMELY HEALTHY peeps
http://southernfood.about.com/…..blbean.htm
CHS,
Thanks for the mention, but plz fix small typo: eCAHN…
not eCHAN…
I am in depression mode. No prepared food, meat three four times a week, no eating out, no cable, no incandescent bulbs, sweaters and heat at 62, library not Barnes and Noble. It’s delightful.
Crude oil futures are now below $80. Wonder how long this steep price dropoff will take to reach our marketplace?
ill have to resume my WEB SHOW on SUPERFOODS
here is another
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage…..038;dbid=2
Right, aware of that. Eyeballing a 4 year old chest freeze on Craigslist, should have a better energy rating.
Hobby farm has been educational and fun (chickens, turkeys, goats, steers), but had no idea of the cost of keeping 2 cows…wow. Kinda like teen children. They are at 670 lbs. each, cost $1k so far. Still not a bad price/lb. (the cows, not the kids).
Christy, Speaking of the elderly, one thing the Democrats might want to remind voters of is that they prevented the GOP from putting Social Security into the stock market.
I am buying gold today, so is that shopping? I am also buying seeds for my garden. Plus considering not paying my property taxes on time, even with the penalty.
I wonder when Sarah Palin is going to tell us all to eat cake?
That would be a great PUAC! Was looking online yesterday for a slow cooker. Would also be great if people could recommend brands/models tomorrow.
Yummo!
I think that’s an excellent idea. Some of the best PUAC’s have involved Food! And, we can lift each other up too.
Got epu’d, so here it is again.
Thanks to all for compliments. *blushing*
The only way I can cope with disaster is to become hyperrational.
A story: On the day of the stock market crash in 1987, I was in my office calculating what the so-called wealth effect would do to consumer spending. Early afternoon, I got a call from the person who arranged research calls. I told her I knew what she wanted to know & was working on it. She arranged a research call for the close of market with a technical analyst who compared it to other stock market crashes, me on the economic implications, and the portfolio strategist on the market implications. Trading that day went on until nearly 5 o’clock, and the head of equities, a squat Cuban, marched around the trading floor with a dead cigar in his mouth telling the traders to keep on the phones & do their jobs. When trading ended, we did our research call. We did it again at 7:15 the following morning. It put rational words into the sales force mouths, that they could call clients and have a rational discussion. It was First Boston’s finest hour, and I think it was a small step in calming panic. Doesn’t look like that’s going on anywhere today.
and they are still talking about it…oh and Lew Ayers…./……”g”
Ive been thinking that anger is already a part of what the ugly McC-Palin pair are trying to stir up. Lots of folks are already not only scared, but also very angry. Unfortunate that Team wants to add to the angst, rather than to offer a way forward. Ive been really proud of Campbell Brown for calling them out.
Well it’s funny the way marketing and advertising work on all of us. I am always aghast that the three-year olds are already showing signs of becoming consumers, perking heads up at commercials, asking me to read advertisements, etc ( and you know children’s shows Dora Diego etc. sell plastic paraphanelia). How does one combat that? We’re programmed from an early age to buy it seems.
To combat that as you have done is not easy.
Ooops — apologies on that. Thought I’d caught the typos…clearly not. *g*
With Mr. ReddHedd out of town, I’m not getting my coffee made until after I’ve written the first post for the day, and it’s messing with my mental mojo. Must remember to set the coffee up tonight so all I have to do is start it in the morning. We’ll all be happier that way. *G*
yes……..im going to put up my show on milk,then ill do black beans i think
Clicked through – Now there’s a good Irish name :-)
YES!! I’ve got a few great recipes that I love but I need to diversify for winter–a couple of mine aren’t exactly frugal (from Rick Bayless’s cookbook, so they call for fresh tomatillos…) but they’re great if you like spicy!
http://www.recipesource.com
and AIM IT FULL THROTTLE at DEMS in general,and Obama in particular
we must STAND up for him,and ourselves…together,imo
Maybe we will have to become community organizers.
Fear & anger. Bad combo. I hate what McPain are doing.
Gas prices are already down here, by about 20 cents in the last week or so. No idea if they will fall further or be stuck in the “refinery” bottleneck for a while, though.
Anecdotally, my tiny TIAA account has had very good returns over the years. For this year it has diminished by thirteen percent. Over the third quarter it dropped by nine percent. I probably should have cashed it in, but I will let it be for now.
The PPT is trying to save the world buy buying every share of the financials that comes up for sale (using your money). When it’s all said and done, the tax payers will have bailed out the existing shareholders, and the tax payers will be the new shareholders. Shadow Government owns everything, and you get the bill.
Did you vote for that?
Yep, beans and rice. All essential amino acids in the combo. Same as meat.
Winter coming on, alas the kids are in for a shock about how cold you can actually tolerate. Just warm enough to keep the pipes from freezing if things get really bad.
And on topic, Christy, I’ve also noticed people in the grocery store with lists and calculators–very rarely saw that before. Restaurants on Fri/Sat nights with no waits…unheard of around here (govt/university town).
I’m making a Costco run on Saturday afternoon. I’ll report back then.
Ian’s Posts and FDL’s pool of knowledge -
wanna share something amusing with y’all amidst all the fear and concern
The Mayberry Macchiavellians and Central Texas Masters of the Universe are my regulars and are now completely freaked out by this waitress uncannily knowing what is gonna happen next. just Wednesday I shared something with them from Ian’s “6000 Bottom” post . . .that of course came to pass on Thursday – two of them came in early yesterday, just to talk about it – they were gobsmacked
…let’s see Female… Older… Waitress – does not compute -lol
so I’m waving to the newest lurkers – you know who you are :D
there’s a special place in hell for that pair.
also peeps
HERES SOMETHING GREAT you can do for YOURSELVES and your family
teh easy
and great for your SLOW COOKER meals
http://www.herbkits.com/
I had missed you earlier, Christy. I am sorry for your husband and family. I hope he is OK in these sad times. Thank you for continuing to hang out here and give us sanity. Has your daughter recovered now? Thoughts and prayers are with you all. My best.
I don’t know much about this, but it sounds like an interesting idea for urban agriculture The fish farm
I guess Lake Perch is one of the fish they raise/farm.
Yes, because what we really need is an angrier mob right now…
O.o
okay got to go,my landlady is comming over …see ya
It’s my late husband’s name, and when we married he told me that would be the most common misspelling.
Christy, FWIW, I would love your frugal recipes topic as a PUAC.
Rev, You are correct. Sadly, throughout history, the anger engendered by this sort of loss has been fertile political ground for demagogues.
Tilapia is an algae eater that can be raised in very small tanks or ponds. Need warm water. Appear to have a good food conversion ratio. They are in the market freezer section, have a good firm white flesh. Unfortunately, most I see are from China…some real problems there in their aquaculture.
If bushy resigns today that will solve all the market’s problems!!
I thought whoever said that thing about Sarah Palin and the “Brownskirts” had an excellent insight.
She’s feeling much better today — the barfing mercifully subsided on Thursday, but this morning her fever finally broke and she’s much perkier. I’m glad we hadn’t gone out with Mr. ReddHedd, because having 5 year old with stomach flu on top of having to sort things out with his mom’s death and with his dad (who will likely now be coming to live with us, we think)…it just would have been way too much.
But I’m so torn on wanting to be there to help, and knowing staying here was best for The Peanut. Being an adult sucks sometimes, but having the blog to keep me busy has been a lifesaver. So thanks to all of you…
Lehman, AIG Chiefs Should `Man Up,’ Stop `Kissing the Mirror,’ Peers Say
The question for me…can they “Man Up” without spines?
Man Up boys!!! That would include Ahhnold. Man Up go out and split a cord you gonna need some alternative energy
I was stuck in traffic in Beverly Hills when LA had the last riots. I’m telling you, it was very scary. Took me three hours to get home and I was grateful not to have been in an accident.
They should pay extra to have you wait their tables. I worked in the service industry/waitressing for some years in the New Haven area *blah* yale, so it’s particulalry funny if we’re talking academics.
First laugh I’ve had today.
I have a ton of them from my grad school and law school frugal days. Will put that together for everyone tomorrow, then. :)
Hah, be funny (not) if stock market hit auto-stop during Shrub’s address. Symbolic, yes?
OT again, but interesting updates from the canvassing front. My BIL and SIL (retired) have been working for O’Biden in a conservative county of WI (where McPalin fomented anger yesterday). Their report: the McMansions are all for McPalin (duh). The “upper middle class” houses are 50/50. The moderate, simple, and apts are ALL O’Biden. In that county, that’s pretty amazing.
I was stuck in traffic in Manhattan when the LA riots were going on. Everyone was trying to get out of town. Not scarey in the sense of what was going on around you, but scarey in the sense of how the contagion spread.
eCAHN – any thoughts as to why this is a global crash? Are the foreign markets looking at our markets and reacting to our mess? Seems inconceivable to me that every other country’s market has gone into the shitter simultaneously and coincidentally….
Oh, I hadn’t heard. I’m so sorry. My condolences.
Turn on cnbc. Cheering on floor of exchange as Dow turns positive.
I am not as frugal as you at this point in time, but yes, I understand. We are “the most frugal people” most of our friends know, yet my recent move showed me drowning in excess (we downsized from a four bedroom bi-level to a two bedroom apartment. Still own the bi-level, but have filled it with my daughter and her friends (in their mid-20’s). They pay utilities and cover insurance and take very good care of it….we’re now 1200 miles away.)
We’ve been told for years that we are making stupid decisions, but save we do. We are the least frugal on education and travel, though we travel frugally.
read an article several years back – NYT piece on Dannon rolling out a product aimed at the ‘Dora crowd’, Big Ad Agency person explaining how 6 years old used to be the line, but how it had evolved down to 3 years old – and the differences in marketing btw the two – incredible
we are indeed. Gone are the days when a child had to wait until Christmas for the bike, or the doll. There was always something so gratifying of waiting for the deluxe Airplane with Stewardess Barbie! “Well, Christmas is coming” was heard often and loudly in my house, sometimes as early as May.
Not to sound curmedgeonly or anything but these days children seem to not get the idea of delayed gratification and the concept of “if you say yes to one thing, you say no to a whole bunch of other things.” Then again, I also no a lot of adults in my age bracket(late 30s to 40s) who don’t get it either.
I spend a lot of time thinking that perhaps I am trying to justify my “sour grapes” frugality. Like if I had material possessions and all the money in the world would I still choose a Laura Ingalls cabin or would I choose something more in keeping with my status? I like to think I would, but I don’t know, it’s to easy to be seduced by unnecessary but really nice things. For example my cabin will have wireless thanks to the main house’s network, but I am not taking a TV and I am going to miss the DVR my sister (where I am staying now) has. It makes watching Life, Heroes much more easier.
Take 1lb potatoes.
Some parsley stalks removed and chopped.
Two large onions.
A small knob of butter or frying margerine.
A can of tuna.
Salt and pepper to taste.
Peel, boil, drain and mash the spuds.
Take two good size onions – remove skin and chop coarsely.
Fry the onions in the same pan that boiled the potatoes in until translucent.
Add about a cupful of milk and the parsley to the onions boil vigorously.
Remove pan from heat.
Add the mashed spuds.
Mix vigorously with a wood spoon.
Open the can of tuna, drain it, reserving the oil if it’s in oil to pour over dry petfood. Add the tuna and whip it coarsely through the potatoe, onion, parsley, mix.
Now ready to eat.
Leftovers if any are good rolled into little balls and fried the next day.
It’s now
thank you for that wonderful link! Except for the last sentence (only because there is documentary evidence of a nasty letter from McCain to Obama from over a year ago), it is right on.
Thanks.
sorry, it should be know and not no.
Preview and proofreading are my friends, I must invite them more often to the party.
My TIAA account has unaccountably increased by an unexplained 70,000 for three days, then wiped out by 140,000 after that. I’d watch their bookkeeping. We are spending hours on the phone with them.
Mortgage backed securities and swaps were sold all over the world. Everyone is holding them and no one knows what they are worth.
Thanks Mark.
Bullseye.
If the idiots would have put in aggressive tax incentives for clean renewable energy and electric cars we would not be here today. Excluding the financial institutions gambling with our money of course. It will be clean renewable energy that will get us out of this recession/depression. Not nuclear or coal power. I just hope people get those solar panels, wind turbines, geothermal heating, wave energy, etc indivually and not wait till large corporations do it and we are beholden to another class of monopolies. Just think how cheap energy would be if half the country made some or all of our own power. I have an article about electric cars. Some guy is working on the idea of plugging them in a night when power is cheaper and using them during the day to put energy back into the grid. According to him we only drive our cars on average 5% of the day and the other 95% of the day the energy they have stored could be put back into the grid. Sounded fascinating to me.
We spend over half the money we earn into taxes if you include all the taxes, fees, lisences, and insurances they force us to pay.
On the need to get a fiscal package soon:
“Desperate Times Require Desperate Measures”
Desperate measures, i.e. increasig govt. spending when the deficit is already huge. Eichengreen seems to like tax cuts, but Thoma, correctly in my view, says that policies toward low- mid-income would provide more stimulus. In addition, I really like those public works. Bridges and transit yes, but also research on social needs, energy policy. Investment by govt.
Obviously, poor Americans of color caused global financial markets to crash. /s
Not a full A to your Q yet. Best I’ve heard it put (some economist forum being played on cspan that I flipped thru yesterday) that the theory behind securitization was to spread the risk. (A simple example: in the day when local banks made local mortgages, if the local economy went sour, it got exascebated by the damage to the local financier. If those mortgages were securitized and spread around the country, the local bank would be in much better shape than if it had kept them in portfolio.)
Well, that was the theory. So the toxic assets got spread all over the globe. I wasn’t keeping up, so I don’t know for sure but think same thing was going on in other countries (after all the U.S. is a leader /s). So indeed, risk was diversified, as a result of which the whole world is crashing.
Another way to look at it is as a macro finance problem in the following sense. When is collateral not collateral? When everyone wants to cash in on it at the same time to cover the loans. Good examples: farm land in a farm land boom, passenger jets in a downturn, oil drilling rigs from 1982-1986 (and 2009-2012?), and of course mortgages today.
And the whole situation was made far worse by leveraging the mortgage assets thru derivatives, etc. And they got spread all over the globe.
CNN has obama… much better.
If you can find that article let me know. I’d like to see it. I find it freaking disturbing. We always know children are affected by environment, culture and whathaveyou. But to have them affected by consumer culture at the age of Three(!) and I kid you not, is something new –at least to me– and disturbing. And it’s epidemic I think. for instance, when I go to a library book sale, I notice, Dora Diego Nickolodean and Disney crap books are the first to go. In some ways that’s fine. I like “stone soup” and other classics, but you know kids these days want to see their favorite characters, so we the caregivers are caught in a bind.
Been doing that for decades along with 40 million Americans and 5.5 billion Earthlings. This is the spoiling of the spoiled.
Bush better announce an increase in food stamps or cities may go up again as in the Watts riots of the 60’s. No food…big problem for majors.
In New Zealand, there was no furnace in our house. We had a space heater that we could move from room to room, but we never heated the bedroom. Yes, I slept with a knit hat in winter, and raced out to the living room to get dressed. It was doable, though unpleasant.
Now, I’m watching the snow blow off the roof of the building I’m in. The wind is sharp and cold this morning, but I’m about to open the window to my office, as the heat is turned up so far. I need to wear a parka to get to work, then strip down in the building, then parka up to go across campus to teach, strip down in the classroom. It is madness.
(speaking from Butte, MT – second snow of the autumn (first was on Sept 1); first winter storm).
Thanks. You’re right.
thanks.
I guess. (sickly *g*)
same stump speech as the last three days.
heeeere comes georgie !!
Stock down 87 at speech start.
Yeah that does tend to get a mite repetitious.
As far as I’m concerned, this is all part of the trickle down mentality overload! There always inevitably has to come a point where people can no longer afford to buy the goods and services that the rich are trying to peddle, and now is that time. First the rich make the middle class poorer, and then you become astounded when they can no longer support their exorbitant habits. What a surprise! It’s called the chickens coming home to roost.
3 minutes in down 140
I’ve always detested the malls so have tried to avoided them as much as possible. I teach urban design and as an urbanist see malls as the antithesis of urbanity and community.
Let’s face it. A lot of advertisers advertise things we don’t need., and try to impress on us that something is necessary or hot or whatever. I think we called it push marketing. Does a computer need all the bells and widgets that are getting sold? Do we really think Britney spears is a good singer, or is she a product of hype marketing and so on . . .
Try and separate yourself from the influence, and I think a lot of things just don’t seem “neccessary” any more.
Right on! It’s about to get uglier than we imagined it ever could.
Do you mean “mauls”?
Yes, we did save and we saved a ton of money. But we were manipulated by taxes on our saving and tax incentives and commercials into putting our money into stocks, mutual funds, IRA’s, etc instead of bank accounts, CD’s and bonds. And now we lost our asses in the stock market twice in my lifetime and we will never recoup that money. This happened to us 10 years ago but is much worse this time. Many on my parents generation were afraid to put money into banks after the banking crisis of the 30’s. I started this week (better late than never) teaching my children that putting money in the stock market is like walking in a casino with it.
Let me restate that because I think it is extremely important. The gov taxed our savings and that is how we ended up putting so much of our hard earned money in retirement/college accounts for them to steal.
Oh thank goodness all will be well he is wearing a flag pin. I feel so much better now
Thanks for the warning….hiding my eyes.
Commercial Paper Guy, reassures a panicked nation and world.
W sounds just like when he was cheerleading during the Iraqi civil war.
8 minutes in and down 190
Oops, W didn’t say “God bless America.”
Boy I feel so much better now that he has finished. I would expect the market to drop another 100 or so in the next 15 minutes. What a fucking idiot.
Bush says small business can’t get loans but all but bankrupt Wachovia can cough up some dough for the NRCC
more
Hi Christy and greetings from Vermont to one and all!
My husband works two jobs. One is full-time at a nursing home as a cook and the second job is part-time at the local Staples store in the mall. When Congress cut the coverage for those dependent on nursing home care, the people who were in the nursing home checked out. They had to shut down and entire wing of the nursing home as a result. They also cut jobs: nurses, LNAs, cooks, kitchen workers, etc. The odd thing was that they did not know why the people left the nursing home in the first place. Because I come here daily and learn from all of you, I was able to share what happened.
At Staples, my husband said that the back-to-school sales were brisk and so were the stimulus check shopping, but since the stock market dropping they have so few customers that they have been closing early(8 or 9 PM). They even cut his hours.
This year we planted a small garden which helped us. We don’t have medical insurance, and the level of income my husband makes which once was considered among the level for assistance no longer is. Two years ago we suddenly had to start paying state taxes and federal taxes. And our income level had not changed at all! I apologize if I sound like a whiner.
Everyday I pray that I not fall ill because we have no health coverage at all. My husband has 7 different medical problems for which he needs to have medicine. He goes to a free-clinic for help and to Wal-Mart(forgive us) to fill his prescriptions.
Thank you for asking the question Christy. God bless you and yours, and Jane, and everyone here at FDL!
Yep. Little clack and white kitten neighbor grought home last months spending more time outside as they are moving. Cat stuff out in road. Pal page rescue yncreasing here as volunteers fight County Animal shelter staff
murder program. Sadly
Do we know what Chimpy is doing besides letting his BFF ransack the treasury? it seems like he’s in whatyoucallit(?) “high school senior spring mode”.
The wife and I look at ours. The last time I got a report on my IRA and mutual fund, I had actually gained (a piddly) $500 each, which surprised me. My wife’s was flat.
The LATEST reports: I’m down $2000, my wife is down $10,000, her boss is down $100,000. Sure, it sucks, but then I have been throwing money at my IRA with the belief that it was going into the trash anyway – I only did it because of the tax benefit, so my fatalistic attitude leads me to see the market turmoil as MOSTLY water on a duck.
They’ve been keeping W out of sight for the most part so we have no idea what he’s doing. My guess: jerking off.
Oh, I go to WalMart too, for prescriptions. Don’t apologize.
You think he thinks the surge is working?
I mean down there in that rabbit hole with Dick Cheney and all.
OK – I’ve got to head off as it’s my last night here. With a bit of luck I should be back home late Sunday night early Monday morning (my time). Christy if you’re still around I’ll be seeing Mohammed Ibn Laith and his new wife during the week (they married several months ago) and are now expecting their first. Tempus Fugit it seems like only yesterday I was holding him and congratulating his parents on his arrival now in a few months time I’m going to be congratulating him … add that to 4 grandchildren of my own and I can only conclude that I must be getting old. :-)
*poof*
Last night while waiting for the Candidates’ Night to start, I couldn’t help thinking about GWB/Karl Rove and the “ownership society”. Well, their ownership society is going to bite the GOP (must avoid any ref to Republican) in their *ss. It seems that George and Karl forgot that markets go down and take folks life savings with them and those same folks don’t thank the people who did it.
By the way, the legislative candidates both agreed that we do need some regulation in the financial markets. Oh, with a top two primary, they were both Republicans. Thankfully, either one would a vast improvement over the outgoing incumbent Bob Sump.
Dick Cheney is in an undisclosed location.
I should say ALMOST water on a duck. It would be NICE if the money I toss at my IRA would actually come back to me when I retire in a larger form than it went in, sure, but I don’t count on it.
I AM concerned on how to do it THIS year. I usually toss a few thousand at my IRA each year to gain as much tax benefit as I can afford. I was hoping to take advantage of the panic selling on Wall Street and actually make out better this time around by throwing some money in with the expectation that the panic would end and I would be sitting if not pretty, then sitting relatively less ugly. Now I’m a-feared of tossing money in because I have no idea where panic will take the market. I could lose my intire money dump within the day I throw it away. I’d PREFER to lose it over a longer span.
What the hell do you do?
I always thought creating bubbles was a way to avoid creating demand. That puts money in the pockets of wall street crooks instead of working people.
Some blogger posted a story about chatting with an economist who recalled a conversation with Irving Kristol. Kristol went on at length about all the times he helped son Bill with contacts. The economist then asked Kristol senior if he believed in affirmative action. Kristol quickly answered that he did not, as it stifled meritocracy.
I take the above story as providing a telling glimpse into the mindset of the rich. Based on their walk (privatize pensions, bubbles instead of demand) and their talk (cheap propaganda from wholly owned corporate news outlets) I can only assume many of the rich are petty, piggy and morally far inferior to the little gifts the dogs at the kennel leave for me each day.
Remember the movie Maxed Out? Remember the scene where Professor Warren has spoken to a bank group about how to cut defaults on credit card payments. Finally the apparent boss speaks up and points out that the bad credit risk customers are their biggest source of income.
As to people tightening their belts, in my own tiny corner of the world I’m not seeing it. The kennel I work at part-time is growing so fast it is straining the owners to keep pace. Having a dog, much less dropping her off for the weekend at a ritzy expensive kennel hardly strikes me as bare bones living. On the other side of town, my best friend’s daughter is having a baby girl any day now. Definitely not a scrimping, delayed-gratification enterprise.
I think what I’m seeing is that the young aren’t sweating this the way those of us who are middle-aged or older are sweating it, bless their little rambunctious hearts.
my business has been in the tank for over a year now so I haven’t seen continuous spending at all
also, I go to the casino every week and even there the poker room has much fewer peeps.
we had to ask everyone to take an extra day off this year and we had to do that DURING season, I cannot imagine what it will be like in the off season
I believe you can find him up bushes’ ass
Possibly you’re wrong. He’s hiding up David Addington’s.
I believe we have all been missing the point;
the neo-cons are NOT republicans, they are NOT in it for republicans
they are robber barons, this collapse is EXACTLY what they wanted, they WANT the haves and the have nots.
they USED the republicans, they are not republicans themselves.
they are federalists, robber baron and fascists, they have co-opted the republican party but they care not one stitch for them
I am so sorry for your fiancial difficulties.
I am always leery of commenting on sites, because I don’t have a clarity of writing that others do and sometimes my statements can come off as if I am personally holding someone responsibility for doing/not doing what they were told to do or not following so called common sense, and by that mean common sense to me means something entirely different to another person.
If my question came off as judgemental of your, or for the matter anyone’s, personal situation I do apologize, it was never my intent to judge anyone’s monetary decisions.
My question of “okay, I don’t get it, we are urged to save, and put money in 401ks, etc, and yet if we do cut back and don’t spend we are called bad Americans and are personally responsible for sinking the global economy” could be put in the more philosophical than judgmental.
I am sorry if my question was poorly worded and could be construed as judgmental on anyone’s situation.
They tell us that war spending for WW II was what ended the Great Depression. But, the economy didn’t care what happened to those tanks and bombers once they were built. As far as the economy was concerned we could have dumped all of them into the oceans, i.e., they were not capital investments and they weren’t infrastructure. So far as the economy is concerned we could have paid those workers to sit at home and play bridge or to go dancing.
The point is that we live in a trickle-up economy, and I’m tired of the wealthy trickling down on us. Also, I’m tired of reading shit like this by people like Francis Fukayama (from the current Newsweek):
The other day, when Bernanke spoke about the grim nature of the economy, he had the gall to mention that real wages were down. Goddamnit to hell I hate these bastards!
Greenspan and Bernanke HATE rising wages. They ALWAYS call it “inflation” and seek to quash that shit. The only wages they consider GOOD to increase are CEO salaries. How DARE that bastard Bernanke pine about how real incomes are stagnant to negative when he and his predecessor are ALL about keeping them down!
Negative Feedback Loop.
Not good for the planet, not good for an economy.
Also keep in mind more people will lose their jobs, then these people will also lose their houses (dropping the house price, more bad debt for banks, etc).
Right now its “I am not going to look at my 401k), sadly we will all be crying soon when there is no 401k to look at (for those lucky enough to have one).
All Fox news and the Republic pary can say is that its poor peoples fault and ACORN.
Stirling Newberry is up with a new post: “The Panic in Markets Continues”
There is also a battle with prices and inflation. However it might really be a problem with the dollar – they must know a run could mean ruin for all; but some countries have to be thinking better to dump the dollars first than last. Ouch, that will be much crying & anger on that day. What sort of planning do you do for a day like that as a country, town, family/person?
So how do you not pay people, but also get them to spend? How do you allow people to own property that was bought at a silly price (does inflation mean that the houses will be cheap in the long run – how do you get companies to pay people more with the fear and unemploymnet (especially if they do not have the money or their business is all inflated “assets”)).
We are all going to be losers and some will be very hard luck losers. Hard workers who to no fault of their own have the last of their life squeezed out of them by terribly hard work for bread crust.
At the same time as I look around there is so much to do and so much work to do – it seems silly to throw that all away. Maybe it comes down to that people were working for paper “assets” that were so highly “valued” so that a few people could take the real money out (and convert it to other stocks, assets, tbills, currencies (dollar, euro, yen)…that is to say many people are actually working on vapor asset companies.
The real terrible thing is I think many older people knew this was not sustainable but thought it was always off in the future. I guess looking back at it the timing could come no other way…just 6 months after the first “boomer” retired.
Seems to me what is now arguably financially unsustainable is making all your customers too poor to afford your widgets, regardless of the fact that productivity is still on its way up!
And no time to spend the money, no ability to retire (no health care).
Nother thread on econ at top now.
Nothing.
Why Congress hasn’t announced and started to implement a massive jobs program around infrastructure projects is way beyond me.
We all know it has to happen, and the jobs can’t be outsourced.
And please, don’t tell me about the money needed; they just pulled $700 billion out of their behinds on a week’s notice.
The ENTIRE monetary fiat system is based on pulling money out of the Fed’s ass, followed by every single major bank that borrows from the Fed and then lends to others ALSO pulling money out of their asses. The ENTIRE money supply is pulled out of multiple asses.
I live in MI which has the highest unemployment rate of all the states and yes here people are staying home more often, eating out less. I can’t remember the last time I saw the local movie theater half full much less full. People are buying cheaper food and less food. I know people who have cancelled the internet and go to the library to get online. I know a few of families that lost their homes, some remortgaged and some had purchased new homes. I was in a couple of pawn shops with my son this summer and I talked with the owner and he said many pawn shops had went out of business. This shocked me because I assumed when times are tough people bought cheap and the cheapest way is rummage sales, pawn shops and consignment stores and that they would be doing good business. People wanted to sell stuff to pawn shops but there are not enough buyers. New and used cars are not selling here. People want to eat and be warm this winter, but many will not be able to afford both. It gets expremely cold here in winter. Energy prices must come down and if they want what money people have left put in saving accounts then stop taxing our savings accounts and maybe, maybe people will put their money/what money they may have left back in the banks, but many will NEVER put money back into retirement/stock market/mututal funds, etc.., never again. We lost a lot of money 10 years ago with the tech bubble, now we have lost … Many don’t have 10 more years to recoup their losses. I fear it will be a long long time before the markets come back.
Oh and my the way, what’s up with charter cable, I can’t get CNN, CNN Headline, MSNBC or CNBC but I can get Fox. That has been happening allot since last spring.
I just received notice from the IRS that I am entitled to an economic stimulus payment of $1800.00!
Woohoo!
On the day after the DOW lot 40% of its value I’m thinking I’d rather the government kept the money and spent it on job creation or welfare for all the folks who are losing their homes and jobs, but what do I know, I’m a raving socialist.