Good morning, Christy – it’s chilly and sunny in Upstate New York this morning.

Thanks Christy.

digg

was mentioned downstairs that mccain was prancing around during obama’s time on stage and had to be motioned to sit down by brokaw

anyone catch a screeny of that?

You know, Christy – it’s nice to know that Johnny Mac considers Cindy good enough to act as his surrogate in terms of ‘taking care of that one’ — can’t you see the middle school hallway..”You talk to him.” “No, you go and talk to him; I can’t talk to him.”

Morning all — gray and rainy-looking here, Toby.

Mornin’, Christy. Just a drive by before headin’ out. Can’t wait for the bilge the McSFB campaign will put on the airwaves.

McCain is fortunate that Obama declined his offer for a series of townhall debates.

I believe the words McInsane used to get Cindy to interact with Obama were to the effect, “Get over there and talk to that one you c*nt.”

Morning Christy!! And my Costa Rican coffee is ready!

My pot is still brewing — I’m dying here…

As one who does a lot of public speaking myself, I liked David Ignatius’ take on last night:

Is it “presidential” to speak in clear sentences that have a beginning, a middle and an end? If so, we heard a very presidential Barack Obama in tonight’s debate — a man who was fluid and precise in explaining his policies and in critiquing those of his opponent.

John McCain, in contrast, seemed stiff and uncomfortable, explaining himself in sentence fragments and jokes and gests that didn’t quite register. He looked awkward whether he was standing or sitting, and his speech was that of a man who wants to chide his opponent and assert his own fitness for office — but can’t explain himself or his policies in clear language that forms complete sentences and paragraphs — or even complete thoughts.

Or am I being elitist, in arguing that case for coherence?

If you are, David, than so am I. I’m kind of partial to folks who can speak in complete sentences.

“and if you don’t mind, please do it topless”

G’morning Christy … rainy in Toronto but it’s going to be warm and sunny over the Thanksgiving weekend.

That should read “then so am I.”

You will note that I said nothing about typing skills in my comment above.

Preview is my friend . . .

Hopefully someone will clear up the handshaking business. “Some say” they didn’t shake hands at the end of the debate; others say, “Yes, they shook hands.”

Yeah, it’s a nitpicky question but the sort of thing that gets cemented into so-called “reality”.

I know for a fact that they did shake at the *beginning* of the debate but can anyone verify whether it also happened at the end?

What’s so interesting, paddling around in the right-wing fever-swamps is that they sort of either are moaning about how crappy McGollum did, or think he carried the evening. The republicans are officially out of ideas and now out of a candidate… they are pinning their hopes on Palin Failin’ Upwards to carry them across the finish line.

The audible dog-whistle of “that One” and his rebuff of Obama (and “townhall participants”) clearly shows a man who was out of touch, and willing to go any lengths to win an election he clearly feels he is owed. After all, Daddy and Grandpa were Four-Stars, and he has the chance to finally out-rank them all.

imagine that, a President who can speak coherently. We could be so lucky.

I have a differant take on the handshake deal then everyone else

I have watched the clip time and again, mccain goes to get barak’s attention, barak goes to shake hands, mccain says something and gestures to his wife

barak is not taken back, not surprised, does not skip a beat

I beleive mccain was being gracious and getting his wife ahead of him with something like;

“cindy wants to congratulate you”

I do not think this moment was disrespect, let’s wait for the mccain explanation, I believe it will make sense to everyone

They had some sort of interaction at the end because Brokaw made them move from in front of the teleprompter screen. Obama puts his hand on McCain’s back in front of the camera right before they move — I do remember that. Will see if I can dig up that clip…

Good Morning Sir !

I am still ruminating on McCain’s “that one” comment. He seemed truly agitated last night.

morning Christy.
Once again, kudos to the wonderful FDL team coverage last night. The best.

Here we go — I knew I’d seen that someone had the clip up of just at the end — I think they shook hands or said something there before having to move:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HldKtglKj_A

I was listening to their voices on the radio. McCain’s voice is almost pleading, urgent, Obama’s is matter of fact.

Christy,

I too noticed the McCain pacing around the stage. I tried but couldn’t really see if his stool was shorter than Obama’s and wondered if it was too tall for him to sit comfortably due to his short height.

I also noticed his breathing. There were many times when he seemed out of breath. You could hear it through the microphone when he took a breath, almost like a gasp.

They shook hands at the end while blocking Brokaw’s teleprompter

… I vaguely recall this, many of us were doing “My friends” shots … *g*

I didn’t see the audience ‘mood ring’ graphs until post-debate, but I’ll wager the McSame and wingnut camps hate them.

Oh wait, they hate everything.

The republicans are officially out of ideas and now out of a candidate…

I was not surprised mccain didn’t go new QUE lar against obama, I think his handlers informed him the polls were showing a negative return with that tactic

what I AM surprised is that mccain didn’t take charge of the swing, come out with;

“my handlers have been insisting on running negative adds, I went along thinking they had the best in mind for the country and my candidacy, I believe the negative campaign is not what this country needs right now and I challenge my campaign and obama’s to run on our record and our ideas

I promise from this day forward my adds will be of my record and then contrast it with obama’s, I hope barak takes up my cause for a clean informative campaign from here forward”

that would have sent obama reeling I think, just as the :can I call you joe: to biden, it would have set him off guard for the first portion of the debate, obama would ahve been afraid to bring up mccain’s record and policy as it would look “negative”

TPM has a video up showing they did shake hands, it’s in the update to the story.

The man who claims to reach across the aisle can’t extend a handshake to his rival.

What a jerk.

Morning, Petro!

Shook. Go to the video at the end of the link.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/222684.php

I don’t understand how anyone could still be undecided at this point.

Obama may not be my “ideal” candidate (someone more like Bernie Sanders would be) but he’s so much better than the angry, incompetent, lying, crochety and out-of-touch old man we’re seeing in McCain.

Yes they did shake hands afterwards. Right before Brokaw asked them to get out of his way so he could read the teleprompter. ABC had footage of it. I also saw a clip on the CBS morning show. They smiled shook hands and exchanged pleasantries.

Balrog! How are you and the rest of the Rogs?

Mornin’ Christy and Firedogs,

via Kos -

a diary w/youtube showing Obama spokesman Gibbs gently beating Hannity about the head and face on Ayres

link

That would only call attention to McCain’s ineffectiveness at managing his own staff and his unwillingness to hold them to his original pledge.

I say, “Go for it, John.”

One of my favorite moments was when Obama started his “green behind the ears” introduction. McCain walked forward and said, “thank, you,” with a smart ass smile, like Obama was conceding the point. At the same time, Obama was saying, “while he was singing about bombing Iran,” and pointing in McCain’s direction. McCain stopped and stood still, with Obama pointing and listing all of McCain’s blatent bombast about foreign countries. It was like the teacher had made the class dunce stand up in front of the room as an example.

Yes, that was quite good … WTF was McCain thinking, sticking his shoe into his mouth that early …

Using Lieberman as an example of reaching across the aisle was confusing, since Holy Joe has spent the last year in McCain’s poop chute.

… angling to get the Florida vote …

Fine thanks. Feeling especially fine this morning for some reason.

every single empty boast of “bi-partisanship” and “reaching across the aisle”

…should be met with ” we all remember your working so closely with Senators Cranston and Glenn”

lots of work then holiday 4 me

see all later

Don’t think it’s the right time to remind that Ds were the majority of the Keating 5.

The thing with Obama and Michelle, Cindy and McCain happened after the debate was over — at the point where they were all going around the room and doing the political gland-handy, take pictures and say thanks portion of the evening.

Haven’t been able to find a clip of that point in the evening yet…

A John McCain Film Festival: “THAT one!”

Obama held out his hand. Cindy shook it, thus allowing McCain the opportunity to turn away and walk off. HE WOULD NOT SHAKE HIS HAND!

John McCain is a stone cold racist.

Period.

NYT Editorial this am, in case you missed it

It is a sorry fact of American political life that campaigns get ugly, often in their final weeks. But Senator John McCain and Gov. Sarah Palin have been running one of the most appalling campaigns we can remember.

NYT

Hannity is such a douchebag.

Thanks for all the feedback on handshaking. Dial-up so I can’t watch vids but, on second thought, maybe it isn’t as important as I’m making it out to be. OTOH, the comment about “That one” seems to be gaining a lot of traction.

Petro -

Glad to see you survived the “My friends” game. *g*

I’m always exasperated that our elections come down to a few “undecided voters”. I feel like, if you’re undecided at this point, you’d do the country a favor if you just don’t vote. However, it does appear this time that enormity of the nation’s problems, brought on during the last eight years, may be leading the “undecideds” to the right answer.

Here’s a
“>YouTube for the Hannity “fans” in the audience, then…

Practice Practice Practice … *g*

Oh, thank god, my coffee pot finally beeped…brb with coffee.

Allow me to shake your hand John…

(Oh shit, I got schooled tonight, shit, shit, shit, shit, shit…) Uh, never mind about shaking hands, take my white woman instead…

The ones on CNN looked like they were imprisoned, muttering lines they were fed by a buffoon …

I thought McCain’s shaky, rapid breathing was very obvious. There was a lot of anxiety going on there. I don’t know if any of the msm has mentioned that but I didn’t hear anyone bring it up on msnbc after the debate.
It was excruciating listening to and watching McCain. He was just pitiful. Even though I am obviously biased, I don’t know how anyone could have watched him & not seen what a trembling, incoherent mess he was.

I think it is the economy that is closing the deal for Obama. The rest is atmospherics. Obama’s economic advisers do not inspire confidence, but Obama is benefitting from the tendency of voters to support Democrats in hard times and that McCain’s economic ideas vary between the disjointed and crazy. Re Obama’s economic advisers, some are responsible for pursuing policies during the Clinton Administration that set up the conditions for the current meltdown. Others believe that government’s role in the economy is to tweak it. I can only assume they have not been paying attention to recent events or cruising down a river of denial.

But Mc deserves to be prez. It’s the only chance he has to outperform his dad and gramps. /s

It was a collossal punking. I think it was the most solidly landed blow in the history of political debating, at least in modern history. I can’t believe McCain was so incautious as to open himself up for that titanic body blow, from which no politician could ever recover. The on camera alteration of McCain’s face will be replayed thousands of times for the rest of Obama’s life, and beyond.

It almost sounded like he was telling a story to a group of second graders gathered around him.

Ding.

Obama’s “behavioralists” when the world economy is melting down seem pretty irrelevant.

I like what those economists brought to the table, AT THE MARGIN, but macroeconomists, they are NOT. Don’t think they have even a moderate command of the obvious.

You’re up eCAHN, what should Obama be advocating today.

Which is why having Sarah Palin aboard is so important.

Are there folks who would bring something thoughtful to the table that you know of? Not just the usual suspects, but really thoughtful discussion? Because I’ve heard a lot of names bandied about the last few months and they all seem like the “same old, same old” to me…which puts us right back where we are, in my mind. Not being an econ wonk by any means, it’s a tough subject for me to talk about in detail. So any thoughts on who and why would be really appreciated on my end of things…

Dammit, I just spewed my coffee. *g*

Left you a note downstairs.

ecahn@59:
Boy, am I sick of little boys in men’s bodies desperately trying to be bigger than daddy no matter what country they destroy, even their own.

My take was first shake was for the cameras which missed the moment.

The second shake was spontaneous and when presented with the chance Mc Cain moved Cindy to block then backed away, in the video, therefore precluding any chance of an informal congrat’s from Obama.
When you watch the repay watch his body language when answering questions from Whites then Minorities.
Up close with one distant from another. Also a condescending attitude when answering a question about economic crisis, implying the minority questioner wouldn’t understand Freddie or Fanny Mae, where he probably got his sub-prime backing which is what destroyed the economy.

I think the handshake deal is overblown. He and his campaign are obviously slandering Obama, wtf difference would a second handshake have meant?

I do think the economy has been a huge part of it, absolutely — I know it flipped a number of votes of folks here who were staunch Bush supporters in the last election. The number one issue for them this year was the economy. Bar none.

But McCain’s weirdly erratic tap dance last week — the economy was strong, then it sucked, then he was coming back to Washington to fix things but instead went out to dinner, then he wasn’t debating, but he did — it made him look totally off-kilter. Which made his “steady hand at the tiller” line that he kept tossing out last night all the more laughable, knowing how unstable a number of folks here thought he’d been looking. It was almost like he was doing an Obama infomercial for him. If they planned that in their messaging just for the debate? It didn’t work for me. Not following so closely on the heels of “ping pong message of the minute” campaigning from McCain from last week.

How about Trotsky?

Better put that first pot of coffee in a thermos and start the second pot right away.

Biden back on the campaign trail today with two appearances. Should be interesting to see if he starts going after palin in attack mode; she got waaaaaay too much attention while he had to be away…….hope he and his wife are bearing up as much as possible thru’ the sorrow of family death.

OTOH, it is probably to our benefit to have seen so often exactly what the thugs are up to with their nasty tactics and audience reaction….also the media to find out what it’s like to be on the receiving end of their sewage.

Off on errands; y’all have a good day.

BooRadley, Balrog, CHS

I don’t know of any miracle worker economists. I’m pretty down on my profession. I listened to Bernanke’s speech to NABE yesterday and found he too had only a moderate command of the obvious. Which is slightly better than Goolsby.

is this what you’re thinking of?

One name in the Obama camp that rains turds down on his economic bonafides: Rubin. RUBIN is the dick that was whole-hog in favor of deregulation, GOP-style, of the financial sector/Wall Street. Rubin, Clinton, and Gramm are directly responsible for the murder of Glass-Steagall and thus they OWN the current shitstorm.

And Obama listens to Rubin? WTF!?

Handshake, smandshake. The meat is in “That one…”

Morning Chrisy! Morning Dawgs!

Pfotenhauer was out talking about that “unrepentant terrorist” again this morning.

waccamaw@61:
We’ve seen Bush do the same repeatedly over the years. Then if people don’t seem to understand how brilliant he (& McCain) are, the sarcasm & bullying comes out.
Creepy.

I’m pretty sure they shook hands in that clip I posted above when Brokaw made them move for the teleprompter. It was the second moment that — and I think tjbs is right, it seemed just spontaneous because they’d hit the same point in the crowd — and McCain was just a jerk about it. It’s who he’s been of late, and I thought it was odd given how much chatter there was from the last debate about him being an ungracious lout that he wouldn’t take advantage of standing right in front of a camera to make a nice gesture. Instead, Cindy in a clipped sort of way shook Obama’s hand and immediately turned away. It was just odd, and sort of indicative of how McCain has been interacting lately.

Pretty sure he’s dead. *g*

Nice post Christy. Thank you.

Just wanted to recommend TobyWollin’s Oxdown. It would be worth posting at FDL. And worth the netroots taking on and investigating further.

http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/543

Let’s see if her mouth wrote some checks that her ass can’t cash.

IIRC, Ian and people such as Krugman thought buying preferred shares of bank stock was superior to buying the actual mortgage backed securities. It’s cheaper, faster, and the government doesn’t have to be the first to assign a value.

Bailout bill also lets US govt buy bank shares

“We can buy these preferred shares and if a company becomes more profitable, you (taxpayers) will get a share of that as well,” Rep. Frank, a Massachusetts Democrat, said.

Apologies if I am wrong about Ian’s position.

What we need in the Treasury Department AND at the Fed AND at the SEC is a purge. We need to purge the Friedmanistas and replace them with Keynesians, top to bottom.

We need people in charge of the country’s money and financial sector who place employment above and beyond the fortunes of finance. Work and workers above and beyond the fortunes of CEOs. People who do not believe that the answer to every problem is yet another tax cut.

Bring back a functional and human economic system based on Keynes.

Mc Cain is a total asshole whether he shook his hand or not. Reminds me of the idiot coaches who would bitch, moan and “work” you the whole game and then want to shake hands after. Not with me.

Yes! Thank you — I’ve been looking for that all morning and missed it at TPM. Thanks for finding it. I wanted to watch it again, because I wondered if it was just me being tired last night that made it shade that way, but then Scherer caught it, too, and I wondered if it wasn’t just me. Also, Blitzer noticed it in his commentary on that clip.

It’s not quite as snippy as I remembered it, though, so maybe it’s just me being tired. What do you all think?

(btw, Mr. ReddHedd’s mother passed away last night and The Peanut has stomach flu…so I’m only running on about 2 cylinders this morning…)

If a five o’clock shadow cost Nixon in the Kenndy/Nixon debate, one can only imagine the lasting damage done to McCain last night as he aimlessly shuffled around the stage. It was as painful to watch as grandpa trying to get down and show his best moves at a wedding dance.

Thanks.

I think a lot of the things Ian has been suggesting make sense. The problem is they would hurt Obama’s chances of getting elected. I suspect Obama’s first year in office will be a very tough one for the economy. He’ll want us to be seeing a little daylight leading up to the 2010 elections. IIRC, Ian has discussed oil rationing, which makes sense to me.

One cannot sit (or stand) comfortably whilst one’s Depends are packed to overflowing.

I am so sorry Christy. Your family are all in our thoughts and prayers.

I place my hope on the fact that Obama is an obvious pragmatist, rather than and ideologue. Like FDR, who was no Keynesian when he took office, it seems to me that Obama is rational, understands the conventional objective approach to problem solving, and won’t continue to try to make the round world fit into the square holes of an ideology. I don’t know if anyone can turn the situation around, but I’m confindent that almost all of the Democratic candidates would have relied on a rational approach, and none of the Republican candidates could have thrown off the Adam Smith, Gilded Age, laissez-faire, Reaganomics gospel they’ve foisted on us and with which they embued a whole generation of followers.

(((Reddhedds)))
so sorry to hear that.
And poor Peanut, she needs her Mommy, that’s the best medicine for that.

Seconded.

Employment depends on consumer spending. Yes, it works the other way around too, but when the economy is dropping, you’ve got to get consumers who still have jobs to increase spending which then, in turn, leads to higher employment (i.e., employment is a lagging indicator). We need BIG fiscal stimulus, I agree, but with consumers retrenching so much, I’m wondering.

Existing home sales were just reported and if I caught the oral report correctly, they were up in Sept. (website does not seem to be updated yet). That would be a good sign.

OT – Palin email hacking indictment handed down. (msnbc)

Sorry about the loss. My condolences.

Great catch.

Totally agree.

Awww, the best to all of you. . . .

Crosstimbers, I love the picture you paint, should be shared as a diary imo

Eli’s upstairs with
Republicans: Good Luck with those Bootstraps

People who know me here know that the Time’s Michael Gordon is my bible on foreign affairs. I am beginning to have a similar appreciation for David Leonhardt’s coverage of the economy. Who can argue with the acuity of insight of the following?

As expensive as the damage control may be, it isn’t likely to cost near as much as the headline numbers suggest. More to the point, the alternative — not spending some serious money to deal with the crisis — would probably end up costing a lot more. As it is, the various bailouts are not the main reason next year’s deficit is growing. The deteriorating state of the economy is.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10…..dt.html?hp

Leonhardt goes on to point out that the government will eventually get most of its money back and in the end the government probably won’t be out but a couple of hundred billion, tops. I find this very re-assuring even if Leonhardt doesn’t say anything about how current efforts will help distressed homeowners or re-establish the housing market or what the real costs of re-capitalizing the banking system are likely to be.

To put things in perspective, Leonhardt notes that what we should really be afraid of is Medicare. I agree with this completely. Again who can argue with the imminence of a problem that will hit, as Leonhardt notes, two decades from now? This is the first time I have heard the looming threat of Medicare raised in the present discourse. Well, the first time since a certain senior, or perhaps I should say, very senior Senator brought it up last night in a Presidential debate. Great minds thinking alike, no doubt. In any case, I am glad to see that Leonhardt has firmly put the current ecomonic situation in its place and identified for us what the real danger is, i.e. entitlements, not Wall Street.

Oh, tyvm, but I don’t know nothin’ ’bout no diaries. :-)

(((Mr. Redd and family))) in honor of (((Quakergirl))) among others.

Thanks for this community.

Thanks.

Oh Christy,

So sorry to hear about Mr. Redd’s mom. Thoughts and prayers to you guys and to the entire family.

Hope the Peanut’s bug is one of those quick things. You two stay in and take comfort in each other.

If McCain were to sit on that stool, his little legs would dangle like a little kids. He had to stand to keep from looking even more ridiculous. The McTeam should have paid attention to this kind of detail.

McCain: Everyhting I know I learned from a chief petty officer. Um– the thing is I didn’t pay much attention at Annapolis, graduated fifth from the bottom.

And what does our bestest ever ally think of the debate??

Through continuing polls taken by the Guardian – they gave the VP debate to Biden 84-16.

For Prez., so far Obama has blown out McCain 93-7 – and the poll has another day to go

Nothing like the “bi-partisan” team of Joe Lieberman, John McCain and Sarah Palin to make you run screaming to a Monarch.

I consider myself a pretty good seat-of-the-pants macroeconomist (I was trained by Jim Tobin), but I’m getting pretty lost at this point on what should be done to contain the crisis. It has grown so big that it overwhelms one’s normal analytical capacity. The magnitude of the meltdown makes it qualitatively new. I don’t have much confidence in Bob Rubin at this point, a little more in Larry Summers perhaps. But I think at this point there isn’t anyone yet who has a grasp on what policy levers we have to stop the economic hemhorraging.

I don’t write this to be nasty, but McCain is a beta male struggling for alpha status.

I mentioned last night on the live blog that the audience was looking real uncomfy with creepy Old guy practically lap-dancing with them.

Frottage anyone?

And I wonder if there has ever been a case in a Presidential debate where the candidate actually reached out and touched an audience member? McCain actually shook hands with the Navy guy…which I suspect was against the rules. After all, the audience is not supposed to “react” to the answers…yet McCain practically forced it.

I was sort of hoping that the guy would have rejected the hand leaving Johnny Mac standing there with an empty hand!

Hahaha, yes that was excellent. I can see the class dunce standing there with his shi$ eating grin. McCain is so shaky and awkward. All of his “moments of levity” fall flat. He’s got no delivery.

The J of Today

Yeah…in particular he said “everything I learned about leadership…”

Maybe that means we should just shut down the Military Academies…where they are supposedly training leaders…and hand the job over to the CPO’s?
It’d save a lot of Federal money!

Of course, McCain didn’t learn anything from Reagan about leadership. Maybe he played one in a movie?

Was Nixon a Chief Petty Officer?

Christy and Family,
I’m sending you all hugs. So sorry about your loss.

IIRC, Ian and people such as Krugman thought buying preferred shares of bank stock was superior to buying the actual mortgage backed securities. It’s cheaper, faster, and the government doesn’t have to be the first to assign a value.

I too was thinking that any Fed influx of $$$ should result in getting “shares” of the bail-ee. That would give the bail-or shareholder status. As such, he/she/it could bring a shareholder suit against the company for the excessive compensation/golden parachute packages the Board okayed, and possibly recover some of that money.

[As an aside, I could never understand — well, actually, I could: Paulson — why the Fed’s didn’t demand, as a condition of their various forms of rescue, that all execs in the “rescued” companies surrender their stock & stock options as a condition of the deal. Bonuses too. This would have avoided the Hank Greenburgs of the world selling $18 mill of AIG stock after the infusion of Federal cash, which of course pushed the previously toilet-bound stock price higher, and voila, more $$$$ for Greenburg.]

(((Christy))) my thoughts are with you.