morning. I was pretty disgusted by Brokaw’s question “Is Russia Evil?”

What kind of bs was that. Obama’s answer did not give me much reassurance. In fact, I slept horribly last night.

I thought it was great. Mr Badass fighter pilot had to swallow his loudmouth bullshit on that one.

lol the lolbirds!

Morning, Eli.

And, in another starling development …

I didn’t care for Obama’s response either: Not evil, just evil acts.

Huh? Did they do ANYTHING different from what we’ve done over the last 30 years? Did they really do ANYTHING different than we did wrt Kosovo and Serbia? Did not Russia complain about the US-driven recognition of Kosovo as independent was a precedent that endangered the “territorial integrity” of nations all over the world? Pot, meet kettle.

The Russians have put paid to the foolish failure to respect the “territorial integrity” of Serbia. We cannot whine about the change in Georgia’s territorial boundaries while championing the change we made to Serbia’s. Goose-Gander. Rules to literally live by. Goose-Gander.

To conclude, I really am sick to death of the conceit that ANYTHING the US does is, by definition, good and wholesome while other countries doing the same thing, or resisting our actions, are “evil”.

it’s not like they weren’t warned -

Tom Cole 5/14/8

“I encourage all Republican candidates, whether incumbents or challengers, to take stock of their campaigns and position themselves for challenging campaigns this fall by building the financial resources and grassroots networks that offer them the opportunity and ability to communicate, energize and turn out voters this election.”

But, Praedor;

Your perspective regarding ‘Murkan ‘exceptionalism’ is a mature, adult perspective.

While ‘Murkuh, as a whole, is still quite infantile in its ‘grasp’, demanding, self-absorbed, and given to tantrums, especially among its ‘leadership’.

That’s why everybody loves us. We’re so ‘cute’.

30 years, that’s a drop in the bucket as far as what they have done in the name of their fucking revolution wouldn’t you say?

Thanks Eli.

I think surrounding Russia with her enemies (Clinton, W) is a great idea. /s

Of course, unlike the ordinary people getting stiffed by our government, they’ll still be rich and comfortable, and even if they lose their elections there’ll be cozy, lucrative lobbyist jobs waiting for them on the other side of the revolving door. I’m sure that makes all of us feel much better.

Exactly.

As I’ve pointed out before, I wish I wasn’t bothered with this pesky thing called a conscience, or decency, because with wingnut welfare (lobbying, ‘think’ tanks, talking head shows, etc.) life as a Rethug is a no lose proposition.

Raven, have you seen this Saxby Chambliss ad?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aCoPh4c7Is

I saw it on TV last night before the debate. He’s talking about being a “leader on nationl defense” and it shows a picture of the President. Only, it’s not Bush - it’s Clinton.

do ya think his numbers have anything to do with that ?!?!?

Georgia: “Barely Republican” - jeebus

Thanks, Eli!

Democrats, Liberals and Progressives hear my plea…

Keep punching. Don’t back off yet. Only 28 days left. Let’s bury these bastards, and good, this time.

Any concern for ‘balance’, Raven, might include, if we’re going back to the ‘beginning’ of the respective histories of the countries under discussion, would have to include Murkuh’s treatment of the native peoples we ‘found’ here and our fascination with a peculiar ‘institution’, don’t you think?

Let us not forget certain other ‘excesses’ as well.

How long has there been reason to be less than ‘happy’ with ‘Murkan foreign policy?

30 years? 40 years? 50 years?

Certainly in my lifetime (sixty-plus years and counting, occassionally), I am hard-pressed to come up with many good examples, or even a few.

Perhaps you have some suggestions of honest, compassionate ‘Murkan behavior in that time frame.

Indeed how many examples of our ‘exceptionalism’ may we point to with genuine pride.

I do not say this to put America down, I sa it because I believe it is so.

How may we better ourselves if we are not honest about our failures and the philosophies which have led to those failures?

Yeah - My neighbors across the street just put up an Obama/Biden sign. I’ve never had a really political discussion with them, but my sense has always been that they’re pretty conservative. My area is very conservative, and I’ve never, in 7 years, seen a single sign for a Democrat. Things are definitely looking up.

Encumbency will cushion the extent of Republican losses, but the last week has seen not only the implosion of the McCain campaign but the unraveling of the Republican brand generally.

This is the Mac Cleland-Bin Laden ad pig.

Does this make the RNCC “surrender monkeys?”

Knock on wood, the Dow is having a good day, only down 150 pts.

and even if they lose their elections there’ll be cozy, lucrative lobbyist jobs waiting for them on the other side of the revolving door. I’m sure that makes all of us feel much better.

Actually, I don’t think that they will be able to count on that for much longer.

It’s really no worry. Any Republic that loses a job is guaranteed to be hired on at the Bush Amusement Park/Preznit Library.

Yes. Let’s surround Russia with NATO…exactly like James Baker promised Gorbachev we wouldn’t. That’s a wonderful idea. /s
The continuation of Imperial Grand Strategy.

True enough. I picked the last 30 because that was the period of rampant, imperial Friedmanism, overt and covert support for dictators, death squads (as well as their training). Actually, I should push it back a bit to at least include our creation of ALL the current problems in the Middle East (only slightly hyperbolic) by our destruction of the first true democracy in the Middle East: Iran. In 1953, at the behest of oil companies, the USA overthrew a truly popular, democratically elected Mossadeh in Iran and installed the Shah (a dictator) that would serve the interests of mega corporations at the expense of the Iranian people.

Our unconditional support of Israel doesn’t help either (actively hurts, actually).

So, let’s say that since WWII, the USA has been on a particularly horrible, modern binge of death and destruction - all to further the interests of mega corporations.

oh yes. but had no idea he was in that much trouble electorally

Knock on wood, the Dow is having a good day, only down 175 pts.

Yes, thanks for the addition. Very important part of the Russia story.

Hey, but trust US. We always have the best intentions. /s

1,789 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen Eli and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

The numbers don’t lie they jest tell different stories ta different people…and so let’s not get real comfortable about the prospects for the election when we understand the the larger the majorities in both houses of Congress, the greater the ownership share of the crisis after January. So there are three things that need ta be done from now until January.
1. Build as large a majority in both houses as possible and expand the extra-party organizations that can challenge and change the corporatist leadership of the Democratic Party. Act Now, Accountability Now, MoveOn etc all must become players beginning this week in what’s left of the campaign. The first 100 days of the new administration must begin with a complete overhaul of the leadership in both houses and to accomplish that all the afore mentioned must become visable and legitimate by their presence and participation in this election success. The ability to effect the solutions to the immediate problems faced in January will be determined by how successful these populist entities are in influencing elections around the country.
2. Rebrand the Republican Party as the party of war, depression and failure and use the terms “fascist” and “fascism” to identify the ideological underpinnings of the party of capital and priviledge. In order to do that the real roots of the “conservatives movement” of the last 28 years must be exposed in the secessionist treason of the Alaska Independence Party and the links of the Republican Party to the shock troops of the Arayn Nation, KKK,the Oklahoma City bombing and the corporate mercenaries of Blackwater. The openeing is there right now if the progressive 527’s will take the initiative and take Sarah Palin down in the next 3 weeks.
3. Finally, visable and coordinated pressure must be placed on Obama to institute special prosecutor functions in the Department of Justice to investigate and prosecute the treason in the excutive branch in the lead up to the war in Iraq and the ongoing war profiteering of the “no bid” contracts.

Let’s use the energy we feel this mornin’ to increase our pressure and focus our effectiveness and jump through the window of opportunity the last 3 weeks of the election campaign offers.

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, FASCISM WILL NOT GO AWAY BY ITSELF…ASK THE GERMANS!!!

Agreed.

Or, perhaps, a ‘greed’?

“appeasement surrender monkeys” fixed it for ya

and in their defense, they are only following McCrazy’s lead after cutting and running from Michigan .. .even though he said he didn’t care if it took a 100 years to win there :D

As an addendum…surely there must have been a few years here or there where the US wasn’t murdering Native Americans, crushing democracies abroad, installing expensive military bases all over bejeezus, etc. You can easily find periods where one or the other in the above list isn’t occurring but you would be hard pressed to find a period where none of the above list was occurring.

Anyone care to offer up some dates of actual exceptional behavior by the US?

Why do you hate America?

Include me too.

OT UK partially nationalizes banks - Breaking news

It really snuck up on him. The local news, last week, showed a poll, I think it was from a month ago, where Chambliss was up by about 20. Then last week, his lead was down to low single digits.

Anyone care to offer up some dates of actual exceptional behavior by the US?

Well, i don’t want to defend exceptionalism, but the period from 1945-1949, when the US had 50% of the world’s wealth, incredible industrial capacity, and a monopoly on nuclear weapons, may have been the first time in history that one nation really had the ability to conquer the world-but we didn’t. That strikes me as fairly unusual, if not exceptional…I wonder how many other nations would have declined that opportunity?

Ian’s post about it

My question is: Does Iceland still exist? It’s entire financial system/banking system was crapping out big time last I heard, and their money (the Kroner(?)) was fading fast.

Amazing that Britain doesn’t follow the magic Republic strategy of tax cuts. That always fixes all economic problems. The MBA Preznit sez so!

Like the dog catching the bus. What would we have done with it?

Besides some would argue that we did take over the world at that time. 720 military bases all over the world. What’s that about? Setting up puppet regimes. Etc. It’s today’s version of empire.

OK…I was kinda thinking that for a short period immediately after WWII would be a good candidate. I mean, honestly, we rebuilt Europe and Asia (at least Japan) without imposing harsh economic strictures, ala Friedmanism, upon them. They were aided in rebuilding their own countries without flying in a bunch of foreign contractors and subcontractors (ala Iraq), they established strong social safety nets (a no-no in modern Friedmanism-driven “development”), etc.

Good times, in a manner of speaking.

Not to mention the World Bank

Empire, dynasty, monarchy, etc. Anything but that which our founders intended and, indeed, fled.

bwaaahaaahaaaa ! without even checking, I knew (like Cheney’s other Senate Monkeyboys McConnell and Cornyn) he voted Yes on Paulson - too damn funny

really, why bother with Oppo, the rats all but f*k themselves

No, we didn’t conquer the rest of the world.

But we did intend to dominate everything, economically, backed up by military force and we intended to call all the shots.

For example, the US determined that the colonies ‘owned’ by France and others, which the Japanese had ‘liberated’, should be returned to their ‘rightful’ owners.

The ‘war’ in Vietnam, at least the ‘Murkan’ version of that conflagration, had its beginnings in precisely those days.

Covert decisions led to overt, and disatrous, ‘action, in the fifties, and, as we (of a certain age) all remember, sixties, the ‘fallout’ of which continues to this day …

Certainly true. troops on the ground in 130 nations certainly qualifies as an “empire” in my book…but there were a whole lot of people at the time that wanted to do it the old-fashioned way, and I’m sure there were quite a few that would have. At least this new form of “soft empire” can be undone. As I said, I have no wish to defend exceptionalism doctrine.
What would we have done with it? What an awesome question.

Didn’t you know that tax cuts are the cure-all and answer to EVERY situation?

War? Tax cuts are the ticket. Recession? Tax cuts. Depression? Tax cuts. Economic boom? Tax cuts. Massive asteroid on collision course with the earth? Tax cuts. One hundred new HD channels added to comcast? Tax cuts. Favored dog breed now chihuahuas? Tax cuts are called for.

OT UK partially nationalizes banks - Breaking news

The benefit of nationalization is that it gives the government a stake in the whole worth of the enterprise not just the crap part as per the Paulson plan. It also gives the government leverage to pressure banks into freeing up their credit for normal business and consumer lending. Oh and such buy ins are actually worth something, again in contrast to the Paulson plan.

What?

You, you mean the UK did a better job of ‘it’?

Who could have ……..?

Sweden, that awful socialist country/ s*, came to their rescue as the free market capitalist pigs could not afford to.

Socialists bailing out capitalists. The irony is so sweet.

“Republicans: Good Luck with those Bootstraps”

Revisiting the debate polls as of now: Who won?

CNN - Obama 72.0% McCain 20.0% (406,700 votes)

MSNBC - Obama 82.5% McCain 13.4% (249,000 votes)

Beautiful!

720 military bases all over the world. What’s that about?

That’s simply got to end.

Obama can’t take on the MIC before the elections, but I sure as hell hope he does after.

There’s a source of 100-200 billion wasted dollars right there.

The inimitable Jane is topside.

The best economic plan possible, that would truly improve our infrastructure and build civil jobs would be to retrench from our 750+ military bases around the world, cut missile defense, and cut military spending down the size that it could be drowned in a bathtub…OK, not that small. Cut military spending down to equal, on a percentage of GDP basis, to that of Russia or China. From there, negotiate further universal cuts.

Why do we need about a dozen military bases in Japan? The locals don’t particularly love it. It costs a buttload.

How about one or two Japanese bases, with local permission, and the primary US base in the Asian region being on Guam, our own territory? Maybe one or two bases, max, in Germany, one or two in Italy, Spain, Britain, etc. How about cutting our military bases down to a grand total, outside the USA proper, to about 50? Of those 50, not all of them need to be fully manned at any given time.

Cut the black budget to zero (nothing allowed to be beyond the controlling eyes of Congress and the People).

Huge billions (even trillions) of dollars set free to be handed back to the people in tax cuts AND in increased social spending and infrastructure improvement.

Obama can’t take on the MIC before the elections, but I sure as hell hope he does after.

A hope expressed as a forecast?

Jane has a new post up at Silo, in case anyone wants to know.

PraedorAtrebates:

“Anyone care to offer up some dates of actual exceptional behavior by the US?”

If my grandfather and father were alive I would let them answer and enlighten you about the exceptionalism of the common everyday American in jest surviving and steppin up for coomon folks everywhere when threatened with genocide and terrorism. But since they ain’t here I’ll give ya a few examples, The Ardennes Forest (Grampa Ole), Omaha Beach and a bridge in Melun France in 1944 (my Dad), the Plain of Bong Son and the district of Chu Li and the entire II Corps from 1966-67. Yes, I used Vietnam because the workin’ class kids and children of America who fought there, fought for what they thought was the lives of the people of Vietnam, even those like me who didn’t believe in the war as an extension of America’s imperial power or in the battle against communism.

So I offer this as a warnin’ to you Citizen PraetorAtrebates, don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater…if you really believe in the idea of the right of people everywhere to strive and struggle for justice and surcease of suffering remember that it is the idea of the United States, the idea of struggle for “a more perfect union”, and the idea of “rule of law” and equal protection that we fight for today in the battlefield of this election, if you really believe in those things don’t denegrate the lives and sacrifice of so many who stand in the light of your history and challenge you to make a difference.

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, NOW IS NOT THE TIME FOR PUNK POLITICS!!

Sa-weet.

I tried explaining to my nutsack winger sister that Sweden itself went through exactly the same sort of thing we are now going through not so long ago. I explained that all we really needed to do was follow Sweden’s example in how they got through it (without hurting their excellent social safety nets and services). She wouldn’t have any of it. Sweden isn’t the US - the US is special and must do its own thing. Socialist nations can never ever do things that are good.

What a fucking moron my sister is.

A hope expressed as a forecast?

No, if you read my comment again it’s a hope expressed as a hope.

But of the two remaining candidates, which one do you think we’ll have a better chance of controlling defense spending with?

Great ‘prescription’ Praedor, but what ’sugar’ shall we have need of to help ‘the medicine go down’?

Ah, RIGHT, tax ————– cuts for the uber menchen und der korporatische class.

Das ist gut!!!

I do not question the intentions of the regular guy/gal. I do not question the honest belief that many military people have that they are really, truly doing the “right thing”, etc. However, it doesn’t matter what THEIR beliefs or intentions are because they cannot change the actual intent and effect of official actions.

Vietnam was wrong and totally avoidable. Period. The best intentions and beliefs of the soldiers actually fighting there cannot change that fact.

Same holds for the current Iraq and Afghanistan. All the best intentions cannot change the actual, objective results.

Many/most Vietnam vets were good, honest, honorable men and women but because the actual cause was not, the overall outcome was not and could not be so. Not their fault - but it is true in spite of their beliefs and intentions.

In any case, I am referring to the overall US policies, intentions, and objective results of US policy, intentions, and actions. Aside from most of WWII (Nagasaki and Hiroshima, domestic Japanese internment camps as exceptions) and the rebuilding of Europe and Asia post-WWII, the de facto actions of the US post-WWII have been mostly negative because it hyped either the Red Chinese or the Soviets. From that hyping, domestic and foreign actions became contaminated with power and money-hungry shits in the Pentagon, government, and corporate America. Eisenhower warned about the poison eating away at the country and we totally blew him off and now we are imprisoned by his military-industrial complex. It is the end-all, be-all of US foreign policy, intention, and action.

The Dow almost breaking even for the day.

Well said, Praedor.

Criticism of ‘policy’ is NOT criticism of ‘the people’ or the true ideas of America.

Such criticism strengthens both.

Criticism of the Military is NOT criticism of the ‘grunts’ or their heartfelt principles.

Such criticism goes to the lack of principle in the mindless use (and abuse) of the military, and elevates the rectitude of the grunts as compared to the ‘expediency’ of the ‘brass’, and the greed of the Military-Congressional-Industrial Complex.

Let blame and culpability fall where it must.

Where it is deserved.

Citizen PraedorAtrebates:

“I do not question the intensions of the regular guy/gal..However it does not matter what THEIR intensions or beliefs are…”

Sorry Citizen but that is bullshit…America is the IDEA of democracy and the belief in “the struggle” to attain it…when you characterize “America” as the beast you are exposing a fundamental lack of belief in the struggle of all common folks in their efforts to survive and make a difference for their children. Your ill considered condemnation of this country places you in the company of all those Stalinists and political nihilists who have only their own interests to elevate above those of their common law brothers and sisters.

Citizen DWBartoo:

Redirect your frustration and anger to the enemy…and the enemy is not “America” but fascism and political nihilsm.

Wrong.

The Air Force pilot who thinks he/she is REALLY doing good and doing the right thing while dropping a bomb or 4 on an Afghanistan village is doing nothing of the kind. It doesn’t matter what that pilot thinks, all that matters is the result and the reaction by those on the ground to that action.

He/she can subsequently say, “Oops, sorry about the wedding party. I really only wanted to kill Al Qaeda”, does NOT fix things. The mark is made and it is well nigh beyond redeeming. Particularly when the fully well-intentioned pilot keeps doing it.

It is the actual effect of the acts rather than the hidden intentions of those actually doing the acts that has the effect.

Good intentions are meaningless in this regards. “Oops, my bad” can never make up for the bad. The POLICY drives the action, the POLICY is NOT to help the actual people (regardless of the actions/beliefs of individual soldiers - of which I am one, by the way) or we would be using local contractors, subcontractors, etc, for development work, we would be giving the local government the money it needs with practically no strings attached except that it be used for infrastructure development and jobs. Instead, we only give money with tight strings: use OUR contractors and subcontractors. NO restrictions on taking profits out of the country. NO safety nets allowed. NO universal healthcare. You MUST privatize your water and sewage. You MUST favor corporatism over the little people. You MUST have a Friedmanesque tax policy.

The end result is the disaster, regardless of how badly any soldier wants to help the locals with their water issues, etc. Handing out candy bars and soccer balls doesn’t make a bad overall policy and strategy into a magically good one. All it does is make the individual good intentions of individual soldiers fall into a black hole of the overarching self-serving US official policy.

Virtually NO ONE around the world (except Poland!) looks at the US as the good guy anymore. Your good intentions, my good intentions, ANY soldier’s or citizen’s good intentions regardless. The OFFICIAL government policy matters. It really does. And it has been fucked up for over 50 years.

Norske, the ‘enemy’ is here, in this nation, and the ‘enemy’ is the attitude that America, as a society, is above all those failings which have destroyed all nations ruled by hubris, arrogance and greed. It is this attitude which the fascists, whom I call out as vigorously as you, are making use of.

America is no different from any other nation when it loses its way and depends on force and violence as ‘policy’, rather than reason.

Part of reason is truth.

Where, and in what fashion have I departed from the ‘truth’ as we BOTH know it to be?

If you do not agree with my assessments, then that is your right, but, it is equally incumbent upon you to reasonably consider that shouting what you ‘believe’ does not make it so or even the only reasonable and thoughtful perpective.

Criricism where critism is due is not unAmerican or destructive to the ideas of America or its people.

The failure to honestly assess and take responsibility on the individual level, as full and complete citizens, for what is done in our names,is precisely what has brought us to this fateful moment, and why, if we do not acknowledge this truth, we might lose our democracy and our children’s future.

Both you and I know that the real cost and the struggle itself (this time, for you are correct that it is an ongoing struggle) has only begun.

Wisdom does not reside in any of us, alone, and it is only our collective wisdom, and courage, which MAY allow us to preserve and build upon what most matters in a democracy, and that is trust.

Apparently, you are willfully not hearing what I have said.

If you persist in your present course of attacking those who do not say precisely what you would like to hear, then you will not attain your desired goals.

Which goals, incidently, we share.

You are, in essence, saying that those who do not adopt your language and pespective are not only wrong, but traitors.

Norske, that is not a proper tack for one such as yourself, for it diminishes all that you stand for so very well.

I appreciate, hear, and respect all that you say.

As a brother, though ‘blooded’ differently from you, I expect nothing less from you.

That is as much admonishment as you shall receive from me.

My respect for you remains and I will, always, have your back.

DW

Bullshit…and you know it…your politics as articulated shows a distain for what we are all fighting for and that is the America that is defined by the struggle of common people to better their lives and live in peace…be careful because your politics as you speak it now is best reflected in Sartre’s “No Exist”

Citizen DWBartoo:

I think I may have a year or two on you and I respect your intelligence and your heart so please hear me well…the “America” we live in and struggle for is an IDEA and it is NOT defined by the fascist oligarchy that has grown fat off of the labor and blood of the people of the world. Do not get so tangled up in your anger and frustration that you go down the path that leads to the cliff…as I said, you are too smart to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

That’s a fine theory you have there Norske, but as far as I remember, what’s happened to our country is the fault of all of us…we elected these boobs! We let them get away with destroying those ideas and ideals! They work for us; now’s the time to look forward and fire the bunch of them! Force them to quit going around the world trying to be the biggest, baddest dog in the pack! Isn’t that basically what Bartoo is saying?

My anger, Norske, is quite reserved for the thugs, as your pique of the moment somehow has missed.

But the notion of ‘exceptionalism’ is the Trojan Horse that has too warm a welcome in the hearts and thoughts of those whom it ill serves.

Beyond that, Norske, my agreement with you is quite total, since the ’struggle’ has been my life’s interest, and I have observed it closely during my lifetime and in my study of history, but it is honest historical recounting that matters, and Howard Zinn, whom I am certain you agree with, has led the way in that regard.

Let me offer you a ‘for instance’.

While you, no doubt, know of the deception, and deceit which attended the episode in the Gulf of Tonkin, it was only last year that the truth of that sorry destructive decision was made public and, so far as i could tell, sunk from public conscioness without a ripple.

Part of change, is remembering why ‘change’ is necesary, but the other part is the ability to discern who the enemies of democracy and freedom actually are.

And one such enemy is internalized in all of us, and that is the willingness to suspend reason and embrace the ‘belief’ of infallibility or omniscience on the part of leaders or the overall thrust of policies, which too often are ’secret’ or whose true purpose is hidden, simply because they are ‘American’.

If you are appealing to the heart of the ideas and principles that founded this nation in the hearts of our ancestors, long before the nation even existed or was ‘discovered’, then I agree wholeheartedly that those ‘better angels’ are indeed, what we should be calling on and extolling to all those Americans who are now consumed by doubt and FEAR.

The true promise of this nation, not just of struggle, but of meaningful successes along the way may never be fully realized, but unless we live those ideas and principles, every single day, then they will wither and die.

So democracy reguires trust at it ‘base’, but daily endeavor to manifest its reality.