Comments on: Reign of Lies

By: MsAnnaNOLA

MsAnnaNOLA — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 04:48:17 +0000

In commenting on Economics I think above all people should understand one thing:

Most of economics are theories or models and they are based on assumptions.

Thus the theories and models are only as good as the assumptions. Many times they are very helpful and the assumptions are good, other times, not so much.

Still other times they miss the mark completely because they fail to take “other” things into account. What type of other things?

Vanity, socital differences, changing societies, stubbornness, vanity, stigma etc. The list could go on and on. The lesson is that even the good theories are often times just that.

Even the good theories don’t tell you what will happen in real life. It is like the law of unintended consequences.

Kind of like all these folks that took out loans they couldn’t afford. Well it was not in their self interest to take out those loans but they did it anyway. Why? A variety of reasons. Ignorance, greed, bandwagon, etc.

By: Glenn W. Smith

Glenn W. Smith — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 04:13:10 +0000

newtonusr, thanks so much. Feel free on this piece and others to offer any criticisms or additional insights. It’s the interaction that just might be nudging the world toward a better place.

By: newtonusr

newtonusr — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 03:41:28 +0000

Glenn – I just have to say – what a piece!
Thank you.

By: Glenn W. Smith

Glenn W. Smith — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 03:38:53 +0000

I wrote a whole book about the structural betrayals in our political practices — The Politics of Deceit. There’s a little blame to place everywhere.

But, the truth is that those of a more authoritarian bent seem much more likely to lie to get or maintain authority. Progressives have to. But in no way is it equivalent, and it wouldn’t be fair and balanced to get in the tire swing and present it that way.

I certainly agree we must demand the truth from our own candidates. And we most support those candidates who appear to us to have more respect for the truth. I don’t believe that’s even a close call this election. Not by a mile.

But vigilance is always called for, and I respect your view.

By: Glenn W. Smith

Glenn W. Smith — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 03:32:42 +0000

You are very kind. Thanks for the compliments. Yes, we do live in a time of illusion. Many observers — Walter Lippman, Theodore Ardono, Walter Benjamin — saw this very early on, with the 20th century creation of mass audiences. You are right to say it was accelerated by communications technologies. It’s quite interesting that an interactive medium where the audience is active and not just passive seems to be accelerating a change of some kind. We can hope it’s a positive return to the reality based community.

By: selise

selise — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 21:08:50 +0000

that’s a good point – when the person is a christian fundamentalist and know’s my history (pretty fundamentalist church teachings – that i bought without much reflection until my late 20’s), it has helped. but there have been other cases where my history was not so relevant. there, i think what has helped is that i try like hell to judge Ds and Rs as well as liberal and conservative policies according to the same standard. it probably helps that i can say, in all honesty, that i despise bill clinton. even if it’s for completely different reasons than the ones conservatives have.

so, i’d think that the arguments coming from you would have less effect – but not no effect.

otoh, the kind of arguments that we use here – at least this year – where we condemn an R for something and then don’t mention that the Ds were involved too…. that, i expect, to provoke a reactionary response that will make more enemies than converts.

but again, only personal experience – no controlled studies.

By: DrDick

DrDick — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 20:46:51 +0000

You also have the advantage of being a former believer. Hearing it from you can have a triggering effect for that personal epiphany I mentioned (as you note there is a delay). Usually these result from either mounting cognitive dissonance or from a profound blow to the worldview. I strongly suspect that I would have no effect on them at all, even if I presented exactly the same arguments.

By: selise

selise — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 20:37:19 +0000

not just me. i have also made inroad with some true believers too. but here’s the thing - it is never ever during a conversation. that, i don’t think, has ever happened to me. what has happened, is that i push hard during a relatively short period of time and then back off. only to hear my own words from the person several months later. once even to try and convince someone else!

my point is that, i would not be surprised, if looking only at short term results one can miss the changes that do occur. it’s just that big changes in world view are usually accompanied by lots of stress and new world views take time to consolidate.

i have no research to back this up - just personal experience.

btw - i’m ok with the use of “normally” - it’s the statements like “Those who can be convinced by reason have at this point already converted. The remainder cannot be so convinced.” and “There is NO convincing believers.” that i object to.

By: DrDick

DrDick — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 20:24:30 +0000

First, I do not discount your personal experience or others like it. My statement says “normally”, not “always”. There actually is a fair bit of research on “true believers” which supports my point. Likewise, this latter group (the 22%ers) are the only ones to whom my remark (and I think synoia’s) applies. I explicitly recognized that some conservatives could be swayed by reason, but that those who are left at this point are apparently oblivious to either reason or reality. You obviously converted much earlier in the process and are by definition swayed by both of those.

By: selise

selise — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 19:11:54 +0000

DrDick – have any data to back that up? you’re not one to make such sweeping assertions without supporting evidence. and i’m especially surprised that you ignore my contrary experience without providing any reason to do so.

i’m not discounting the effect an epiphany can have, but in my experience reason plays a very strong role as well – and continues to do so.