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Dunce Cap by Ookami Dou
Ok, enough. I’m hearing too much stupidity, like "the government will be massively incentivized to protect the value of the crap they buy, so the government will make a profit!" Or, "the government will help borrowers because it’ll own the mortgage (no, it’ll own the mortgage backed security) and it’ll want to."
Good God, the stupidity, it burns. Who cares if the government is massively incentivized to protect the value, even assuming the government cares which is far from clear to me since for this plan to do anything it has to buy at far above market value? They’re going to be sold the shittiest parts of the shitpile by far because what would you sell to them if you were the banks? Think about it. This stuff isn’t called toxic waste for nothing. MBS’s may have something behind them, but much of what’s going to be sold are massively internally leveraged instruments like first loss bonds, credit default swaps, and other noxious stuff that hardly even has a name. Much of it won’t even be mortgage based, and that which is won’t necessarily give clear title to the mortgage proper (you can sell different parts of the mortgage to multiple different MBSs). The 700 billion will probably be gone before Obama even gets in power, so you’re not betting on what Obama will do, you’re betting on what Paulson and Bush will do. Furthermore Wall Street is already saying 700 billion won’t be enough. (So, ok, you might be betting what Obama will do with the next 700 billion or so.)
More than that, a huge pile of this is going to go overseas, you don’t think those provisions were in there for show, do you? Foreign banks will sell the worst parts of their shitpile to their American subsidiaries and from there to the Treasury. Furthermore, there is nothing in the bill to stop banks from minting more shitpile and selling it to the Treasury. You can make something today and sell it.
The Treasury will buy these things at above market price, and has not set a floor under prices so no one else will buy the toxic waste at overinflated prices unless they think they can sell it to the sucker of last resort: aka, the Treasury Department, aka: you, the taxpayer. So private actors are going to lobby hard for the government to buy even more shit, because this isn’t just a bailout, this is a potential profit center since, hey, the government will buy shit at above market manure prices.
Exactly as written this is a huge giveaway of government money to private interests. That is its purpose. It is meant to bribe banks into lending to each other again. "Sure, it’s not profitable to loan at below inflation, but we’re making it up to you by buying your shit."
Once a big chunk of the shitpile has been bought, something will have to be done with it. I imagine you can figure out who it’s going to land on.
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I am so glad that I dumped every single dollar investment a long time ago.
Christ on a crutch.
Oh and ZEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
Going for a the third ….
By the way Ian good evening …
What next. It boggles the mind.
GG in da house! Aloha, Mark!
howdy mfi. ian. egr.
so, why do folks here think the dems in general and obama in particular took up the cause of passing paulson’s giveaway?
Well, Ian, all I can say is ’surprised’?
Know where the Dow and S&P 500 were EIGHT years ago? 11,388 and 1255, respectively.
http://www.minyanville.com/art…..ex/a/19326
Today after the bailout? Dow=10,324, S&P 500=1099
What’s Responsible for the TED Spread’s Recent Behavior?
http://seekingalpha.com/articl…..t-behavior
Libor Mystifies Americans as Mayor Reads `Doomsday’ (Update2) http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/…..refer=home
I guess most Americans don’t bother to read the terms and conditions of their credit cards if they don’t know what the LIBOR is; What is REALLY scary is the quotation of Congress critters regarding what LIBOR is, ESPECIALLY Dodd’s staff.
Our ‘leaders’ at work:
DHS satellite spy program going forward despite objections
“After more than a year of delay, Congress quietly authorized DHS to begin sharing data gathered by military satellites with civilian and law enforcement agencies.”
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/….._1002.html
Basic grocery items rise 10.5% from last year
A basket of 16 basic food items cost $48.68 over the past three months, up 10.5% from a year ago, the American Farm Bureau Federation said Thursday.
http://www.marketwatch.com/new…..64A01BA%7D
It’s all Obama’s fault. Vote McCain Palin, you’ll be one step closer to your revolution.
acknowledging obama’s role in no way implies support for mccain, palin or revolution.
Welcome, mfi.
I’ve been writing about all this stuff as long as I’ve been a blogger, and before on forums. Take the S&P numbers and adjust for
a) inflation
b) currency deflation against the pound or euro
for real abysmal fun.
the theocon perspective on the death of our economy:
http://www.time.com/time/busin…..ml?cnn=yes
They’re actually saying that God ordained their debt. Is Palin part of this movement?????
hey Mark, long time no see.
It’s all Obama’s fault. Vote McCain Palin, you’ll be one step closer to your
revolutionrapture.AND /s
hope that’s o.k.
fire away
I believe Congressional Quarterly had an article today on Obama’s arm bending for the bill. Sadly, behind a subscription firewall.
I will still make the suggestion, that if only because of foreign policy and Scotus, that Obama is preferable to McCain, but folks will have to excuse me if my heart isn’t really in it anymore. Between this and FISA I think he’s made his real opinion of liberalism and progressivism and populism pretty clear.
why bother even writing a new thread
Ding!
btw, Raven. u & selise good friends, or u just get a big ole kick outta pushin’ buttons.
nah. i’m just jealous. were u a sharpshooter in another life?. ;->
Here’s something I had missed:
“But the most duplicitous and frightening aspect of the plan, as always, was to found, buried in the back of the document, located there in the hopes everyone would have fallen asleep from the legalese before they made it that far. There’s the innocuous sounding Section 128, which was in both the original and amended versions, and says simply:
“Section 203 of the Financial Services Regulatory Relief Act of 2006 (12 U.S.C. 461 note) is amended by striking ‘October 1, 2011’ and inserting ‘October 1, 2008.’”
What would this effectively do? It was intended to speed up the enactment of this section of the law from 2011 to this week.
And what is the impact of the change in this law? (Take a moment to let this sink in.) This wonderful bipartisan bailout proposal, negotiated into the wee hours of the morning by sleep-deprived members of Congress was designed to come with a furtive Trojan Horse embedded by Wall Street lawyers. Banks already in trouble for lack of capital would get to hold as little as “zero” capital for transactions. “
From http://www.counterpunch.org/martens09302008.html
Yet, all you see is congratulations by the ‘leaders’ and thanks to Obama(sorry Raven but I wasn’t voting for him or McCrazy anyway).
By the way, for the Obama hardcore. What action could Obama take which would be a step too far for you? Is there anything he could do that would make you withdraw your support?
If so, name it. If not, well, you’ve taken yourself out of play and you can be sure Obama is counting on people just like you and will give you all the policies you demand, ie. none.
only to save the servers, no doubt. and to make us scramble around like gerbils.
Back for a few short while because a case I was involved a few years back while I was wearing my civilian hat went to appeal on the basis of new evidence. Hopefully going home next week. Taking the opportunity to play lots with my grandchildren of an evening. (And encourage in them all the behaviour I discouraged in my own kids. It’s like being a grandfather you get to play with ‘em and admire how lovely they are. But once it’s nappy changing time …. “Hmmmmmmm …. this one smells a bit off …. I think he’s yours ….”
:-)
Pretty painful to listen to pols justify themselves today.
That’s about why I like being an uncle. I get to do the fun stuff with the kids, and as a result I almost never have problems with them. And if I’m not as strict as their parents would be, well, I still gave them a few hours of free time and I do try and bring them back nice and exhausted.
Hey, Ian, I wish ya would stop sugar-coating this stuff./SNARK!!!!!!!!!!
‘Merkah is about to get some serious education.
Well, the bottom ninety percent, or so, is.
Couldn’t happen to a more deserving country.
Don’t know how the Deciderator can hold his glee in check, that smirk is just gonna get bigger and bigger. And the dems didn’t do too bad for themselves either.
And Paulson, ain’t he a hoot? Pulled off the biggest daylight robbery in history, gets to spend it without a care in the world. Bet he and his buds are happy campers. Yay excess! YAY greed! Yay for absolute power!
Robin Hood was a pikker and worked for the wrong folks, obviously.
Did anyone hear Peggy Noonan’s mini meltdown on NPR?
Apparently “SHE’S” been harder on Karl Rove and his attack politics than anyone else!
What a scabrous hack.
-G
Ian, I hear you, I think, but I simply cannot consider the alternative. it sucks all around.
I hope I’m hearing your question right.
In the previous post Ian wrote:
Is it possible that, under an Obama plan of energy independence and refocused emphasis on keeping dollars at home through improved healthcare, for example (i.e. relatively cheaper labor), the effect will be that this game will go on forever.
I just cannot believe that, as you said, the Chicago school economists that advise Obama just signed off on the deal despite the inflationary dangers.
Also, I have a feeling that there is more going on here than we’re being told. You allude to it in the paragraph where you talk about foreign owned toxic assets being bought up through US subsidiaries (UBS – HELLO!). Is it possible that the Chinese Central Bank and other foreign actors told Bush and Paulson – bail us out now, or we will get rid of the dollar peg which has stopped the US from turning into Argentina and Brazil in the late 80s and early 90s.
The Paulson on one knee to Pelosi gesture is a nice story, but my spidey sense says that, if this story is true, that someone really had Paulson by the short hairs.
ah. you’re the savvy fella on the stool in the corner.
just hold yer plate out when yer ready.
-uh, no. i wouldn’t pass it if i were you, not just now anyway.
later i might spare a square. or not.
i don’t disagree with your preference for obama over mccain – just trying to figure out what’s going on and evaluate them both.
turn it off?
Can you imagine Sarah doing the “Palin wink” to any of the middle eastern moguls? Talk about the wink that started a world war. (rolls eyes) Fiorina was right. CEO? She wouldn’t be hired as floor washer with this kind of behavior, and don’t forget in the debate she was literally interviewing with the entire country.
Yes I do know your comment was snark. You better believe my vote will be cast with the Democratic party because I. Will. Never. Ever. Forget. Who. Got. Us. Here. Bush and the Republicans are history. Two reasons, the Iraq war and the Economy. Talking about trashing the place? They have burned it down. Nothing but ashes left to pick up.
Thanks Ian.
digg
Paul Roberts, Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration, shares his thoughts here:
http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts10032008.html
Earlier today MayDaze answered the question of do these Congress critters say when this legislation doesn’t do what they thought(yes, I know) it would do and her response was “Who could have predicted?”; got a laugh then but now I’m just greatly saddened.
Good to ’see’ you, Mark, it’s been a while.
I’ll be talking to the other members of St Pete For Peace Saturday about using some of the images in flyers and other media.
I an, how long will the ban on shortselling last?
Your “cleverness” is lost on me; anyway, I’m out-a-here next spring anyway. Enjoy your stay.
I see two reasons: fear and ruthlessness. Fear, that a real crash, a sudden economic contraction that would do things (like put trucking companies out of business quick-without trucks, the cities cannot feed themselves) for which Obama and the Democrats might wind up the designated scapegoat. The other, ruthlessness, is seen in the refusal to be maneuvered into a position where that charge could be attached. “I will call your bluff and vote for that bill even though it sucks, rather than give you an opportunity to use a “no” vote against me.”
Equal parts chess and drinking game, or so it seems to me. YMMV.
Elliott, the ’short selling ban’ is a ruse; market makers like Goldman are exempt from such a ban.
evaluate the differences. gee. let me see. tapping foot and rubbing brow.
u want cheese on that, over in the corner there, 20somethin’? be with ya in a sec.
no. don’t get up.
Never been Obama hardcore – but this is a case of Better Democrats long term.
I had a back and forth with Selise a couple of days ago about this. The issue is that there are too many Republican memes running around in the mainstream, which, if you are up there in Canada the whole time, just miss because you can’t walk around on the street, listen to regular radio, like morning-drive time low info guys, etc. (My Dad lives in Canada and he gets CNN and the Internets, but doesn’t get a “zeitgeist” feeling of the entire country.)
It took Goldwater to get Reagan. The progressive movement has come a long way, but it still has a way to go. We turned Al Wynn out here a couple of miles down the road, we bounced Lieberman out. We have Rachel Maddow in prime time beating Larry King.
In short: Baby steps, baby steps, and patience.
Yes, this deal went down the way it did in large part because the Arabs and Chinese told the US that if it didn’t the US was going to be on its own financing itself. How it works is simple enough – Treasuries aren’t safe if you’re from overseas (currency risk) and they pay crap. Why would you finance the US? Well, what if your crap is being bought up at above market rates. Sure you’re taking a loss on the lending, but you’re making it back plus some on selling crap at above market prices.
In essence, the Arabs and Chinese to the US – “make these losses good, or the game is OVER. We are tired of lending money to you knowing that we probably will never get most of it back.”
hi adie! lol. i did after a while…
Ian, I have realistic expectations about what Obama will be able to deliver. My guess is it can’t all be done, especially with the economic climate. I do however believe that he offers a new perspective and a willingness to bring the “warring” factions together.
When I think about the alternative, my choice is clear. I do not want in any way form or fashion to experience the next 4 years led by those who got us into this mess.
President Bush is making Hoover seem competent. The next President will not be able to bring us back from the brink because of the size of the deficit. To me the question will be is who is going to stop digging the hole deeper.
California looking for Emergency 7 billion loan. Sorry Ahnold the $ is going up in smoke on Wall Street and in Iraq
My hope is that liberals will find a way to digg into any mortgage backed securities that Paulson buys. If we do that early enough in the process, we can raise questions about the price Paulson paid. I think there’s at least a decent chance the legacy media will join us. That in turn might turn public opinion against the bailout of Wall Street.
The news cycle isn’t going to end on this. The states and local governments desperately need cash too.
Until the crisis is over. How long will that be? Not sure. The crisis isn’t the economy. Could be a very long time, however. What I want to see now is the next LIBOR.
thank heaven. i hate it when people take me seriously.
but i can field-dress a politician at 20 paces.
Forgive me for slightly OT, but i just had to send this along. we should be making posters out of this. From today’s NY Times, via Krugman. By the way, the photo of reagan’s poster accompanying this article is PRICELESS.
Go to link to get full photo effect.
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.c…..dicare/?hp
October 3, 2008, 11:04 am
Raising the white flag of surrender — to Medicare
Freedom in danger
Unbelievable. Sarah Palin finished her closing remarks by quoting Ronald Reagan:
“It was Ronald Reagan who said that freedom is always just one generation away from extinction. We don’t pass it to our children in the bloodstream; we have to fight for it and protect it, and then hand it to them so that they shall do the same, or we’re going to find ourselves spending our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children about a time in America, back in the day, when men and women were free.”
When did he say this? It was on a recording he made for Operation Coffeecup — a campaign organized by the American Medical Association to block the passage of Medicare. Doctors’ wives were supposed to organize coffee klatches for patients, where they would play the Reagan recording, which declared that Medicare would lead us to totalitarianism.
You couldn’t make this stuff up.
well he gave hints of that before this summer – but i was holding on to hoping for as long as i could. fisa, or rather lying about fisa was the line for me.
can’t say i’m very sure about what to do, but my intention is to caste a protest vote in november (recognize that’s not for everyone and am not suggesting anyone else should do the same). during june’s fisa debacle mary made a comment that has stuck with me:
with a majority of dems in both houses of congress, seems like this might be the time to do that. like i said, don’t know, just trying to do my best.
Thanks for mentioning Iraq. I’ll know the GOP finally really considers this a crisis, when they help pull our troops out of the Middle East. That’s the low hanging fruit in terms of cutting government spending.
Ian,
I can’t remember whether you’re a Canadian citizen.
In any event, thanks.
Sometimes it gets hard to climb a mountain when taking baby steps
that’s not what i wrote. evaluating them both is an on going process. it doesn’t stop just because i think that mccain would be a disaster as potus.
I think that Obama is a competent, slightly compassionate, Reagan in ideological terms, and that’s about how I expect him to run the government. Essentially a Clinton government, except I don’t think that sort of policy triangulation works any more.
Normal monetary and fiscal policy has been broken. Kaput. You cannot fix this problem with normal means. This is Bernanke, Bush and Greenspan’s legacy, they broke the system. It took a lot of work to do it, but they managed it. What should have happened is that in 2005 they should have taken the country into a recession by raising interest rates, ended the bubble then and smacked the speculators upside the head with 2×4 “no boys, you’re over-leveraged”. Instead they let everyone keep doubling down.
At this point you can’t Volcker, it wouldn’t work, because the government is on the hook for too many mortgages and if you raise interest rates to 10% or so, they’re all going to tank. Yet, under normal monetary policy, that’s what you need to do – raise interest rates.
Oh well.
The stupid, it burns. Bernanke is going to go down as the worst Central Banker in history, probably. I think Greenie might make 3 or 4.
Ian, You are correct but personally I’m not ready to become a third world country. I’m simply trying to elect somebody who will stop digging the damn hole.
Notice that female voters got a huge commitment to choice, eh?
btw, great links. thanks.
I am, yes.
Can’t climb a mountain standing still. We all want the same thing in the end, we just have different strategies going about it.
I’m just no longer convinced that he won’t. I fear he may just dig the hole slower, with better scafolding and less corruption.
Ian I agree completely about the Arabs and the Chinese. Although I suspect at some point the Chinese may decide “well as we´re between a rock and a hard place we might as well go for the hard place as the rock dropping would squish us flat.” The Arabs I´m not so sure of. Ther’re are NO stable regimes in MENA.
This question however is about something I’ve been screaming about for years the “Alt-A” loans. I’ve seen precious little about them but potentially they’re far worse than subprime as while not quite as toxic there are a hell of a lot more of them and the law of large numbers applies.
Any thoughts?
From what was said in the ‘debates’ the Repubs’ WANTED to rein in Freddie and Fannie in 2005 but the Dems’ scuttled the effort. Don’t know the truth of such but it wouldn’t surprise me given the lobbying that was being done.
Ian I agree completely about the Arabs and the Chinese. Although I suspect at some point the Chinese may decide ”well as we´re between a rock and a hard place we might as well go for the hard place as the rock dropping would squish us flat.” The Arabs I´m not so sure of. Ther’re are NO stable regimes in MENA.
This question however is about something I’ve been screaming about for years the ”Alt-A” loans. I’ve seen precious little about them but potentially they’re far worse than subprime as while not quite as toxic there are a hell of a lot more of them and the law of large numbers applies.
Any thoughts?
Enter stage left – The Bank of the Lake. Let’s make our own bank, mint our own shitpile and sell it to the Treasury. With what’s leftover after our own golden parachutes, we can suit up as Robin Hood and Mother Theresa and help the poor.
Uh oh- via Howie at DWT:
howie post here
From what I’ve been reading, Europe is worse off than US in bad bank debts. What are your thoughts on this?
Absolutely. Just the desire to see clearly what is, devoid of prejudice or programming, so that rational, honest judgements can be made.
The soul of critical thinking, as it should be applied to anything, and especially political candidates.
Obama has put himself behind this loser legislation.
my biggest disappointment of the day was edwards vote for the bailout.
Thanks – We´ll be putting up some doozies from Fallujah General Hospital Pediatrics Unit in about a week. I’ll see to it that you get told.
Alt-A is already gone bad, the rot is deep into it. Honestly, a lot of prime stuff is going bad. But yeah, Alt-A is only marginally better than subprime, especially because of all the leverage games.
I haven’t looked into it. My bet is that both parties were reigned in by their lobbyists, I doubt Republicans were the party of purity on it.
And yet he led the way to make it $700 billion deeper.
Selise,
those politicians you trust will betray you.
From a previous post: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..–Tax cuts alone account for 42 percent of the budgetary deterioration for 2009 that stems from policymakers’ actions since 2001. Increases in military and other security programs account for another 39 percent. Combined, these two factors account for 82 percent of the budget decline that is due to policy actions.
Obama’s advisors are already speaking of maintaining the ‘defense’ budget so that leaves addressing tax cuts; can you hear the Repub screaming already?
“There they go again, the ‘tax and spend Dem’s”.
Ian
What do you think of this response to your two most recent posts from a friend of mine who used to be in mortgage banking?:
This bailout bill is a monument to the Age of Stupid. It is fantastically expensive. It won’t work, and it was supported by the political elites of both parties.
Thanks Ian – about what I thought. Incidentally I’d appreciate a small favour. Erdla (bless her) converts his postings on Agonist to PDF and emails them to me. If you’d pass on my thanks and compliments to him I’d be grateful.
Oops that was apropos Stirling’s postings.
Ian, here’s what I have turned up re ‘reining in Freddie and Fannie Mac’:
http://www.thebulletin.us/site…..#038;rfi=8
Note the quote from Barney Frank.
Question for the ladies…
Do you think that was a Frederick’s of Hollywood suit that Barbie was wearin’ last night? Or, is that the normal Alaskan power woman attire? Ya know they’re not out of touch ‘up there’ in Alaska ‘cuz it’s a energy-producing state…also. You betcha!
I’d say the usual suspects when discussing motivation: fear and greed. Fear of being blamed for the downturn getting worse, which it will, and all the wonderful campaign funding provided by those poor financial institutions that just need our help to get through these troubling times. /s
Yeah, I know, but if Howie’s info is correct (I trust him but I’d like to see the final vote) I am deeply disappointed by Donna Edwards.
I did some searching of prior threads, but couldn’t figure out the correct link to the final vote. If anyone can post that, much appreciated. Only thing I could find indicated that my rep John Lewis voted aye, and if so, I am again deeply disappointed.
IMO, That’s still better because McCain is Bush on steroids. There are some that think that if our country tanks we can build start rebuilding from the ground up. That’s not working out so good for Mexico. If Obama were to win, he could have both the House and Senate behind him. Even if he were in office for only four years, we could start rebuilding.
Hi. Me too. Only to watch side-by-side on CSpan for debates.
Nice to see your shining face. Not sure you’re supposed to be talking with me. It’s a terrible burdon to bear, being taken seriously by an economy wonk on an otherwise already miserable Friday afternoon.
So I hug my kitties and my honey, not necessarily in that order.
Perhaps Mr/Ms. Bigwig would feel better if it be known that I’m outta here, too, next year, for a life-care community just down the road from a world-class college, as befittin my diminished state of mind.
If he played nice, I’d offer him a nice fresh juicy-ripe tomato from my 35-years-running victory garden, or a reprint of one of my scientific publications. But then, we each choose our own path, at least to some extent. Mine will never stray far from Jane’s beautiful Lake.
I’ve noticed that our 2 cats (brother&sister) sometimes strangely, inappropriately, start a fight with eachother, when they hear the neighborhood cats start a big fitzrow. It’s actually got a name, this type of behavior: Redirection. It’s usually avoided by people who study behavior and are determined to be civil with their well-intentioned brethren.
P. E. A. C. E.
yeah, very bad.
The bill is a bandaid but when banks don’t lend to other banks, we could enter a depression not seen in this country.
The steeper the incline the smaller the steps are necessary to ascend.
“As those are unwound, it may be possible to figure which banks can be allowed to fail and which it might be worth rescuing.” ; it is the ‘unwinding of the tranches that are the problem because each branch of the tranche has a different valuation. Gross of PIMCO has offered his services in the evaluation IF others will join him in offering such services gratis but no one else has stepped up to the plate.
Did you say Arnold and Up In Smoke?
-G
off topic wrt to bailout, but on topic wrt stupid: just received via email from berman (house foreign relations committee), it begins:
Ian, What candidate do you think will do the most to turn around our country? It’s a given that McCain or Obama will win. IMO, McCain appears to have some serious health issues, so it could be Palin. In that vein, since Obama is a black man and since we have extreme racists, it might be Biden.
And to think..we could be building a trillion dollars of instructure at this moment, and adding a million jobs. Now we are pissing it down the drain on crooked bankers.
Whoa! Me too. In simple but effective laymen’s terms, my approach to ALL politicians basically comes down to “pretty is as pretty does.”
Frankly, absent the pairing with Obama, I’d have more worries about Biden. I HOPE they will make a good pair, bringing out the best in both of them. Guarded optimism. No more.
I think I could safely say I would NEVER, EVER vote for Mcsame or Palin, not even for crossing guard.
What you and your friend should be asking is:
Will this bill help distressed homeowners? No
Will it re-regulate markets so this won’t happen again? No
Will Paulson demand equity/warrants? He has said (in his famous telephone call to bankers) that he will only ask for warrants for non-voting stock on buys above $100 million, i.e. a $200 million buy would have only $100 million in related warrants issued on it.
Will Paulson drive hard bargains? No (Same call)
I don’t think she had much choice. She had already called Obama out in public AFTER his vote on FISA. She’s a Maryland rep and Steny hates her.
I’ll be looking meantime because I have a couple ideas on a continuing set of flyers, etc, so I’ll catch anything new.
Selise ,are you saying it was stupid to block the sanctions or Berman’s statement was stupid?
i tried to liveblog the debate – heard edwards “explain” her changed vote (no mention of obama that i recall).
official roll call is here.
will look for cspan clip.
Everyone has a choice. Donna folded. Very distressing.
What are you doing here?
Are you against the political process?
Liberals got destroyed on FISA, on Iraq, on the bailout. We have to forge alliances with the black caucus and unions.
What would you suggest we do differently?
Then her reply to Frank was pure sarcasm.
Simply untrue. Republicans will probably have enough votes in the Senate to filibuster. Republicans and BlueDogs will continue to form a working majority in the House. And Obama has not shown a single instance of leading on any issue, unless you count his support for the FISA Amendments Act and the Wall Street bailout bill.
thanks Selise. will go check the link. all I know about Edwards re: the vote is what Howie said, and Howie has been a huge supporter of Donna from the get go.
Her district is overwhelmingly poor and the descendants of slaves. Once Obama came out in support, there was nothing she could do.
IMHO, Steny is already selecting others, more to his liking, to primary her.
[Mod Note; comment edited. Let’s refrain from using terms with potentially racist connotations.]
I think the position of pension funds and the like was a huge factor in the Dems voting for. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
imo, berman’s statement was stupid. and his sanctions bills even moreso.
Please by all means name all the reps who have been more loyal to liberal causes than Donna Edwards. AFAIK, it’s a very short list.
Yeah, that’s possible. It depends on your assumptions.
My key assumption is that the government is going to get stiffed a lot worse than that, and that it’s going to be sometime before there’s a real rise in the stock market and/or housing market which would offset buying at a discount. Also I don’t trust Paulson.
However, Krugman say, would agree with your friend. You can see the full run through on my post on his reasoning.
To who Mark?
I am so proud of Hank Johnson, who is in the GA district next to mine.
He voted nay (selise, thanks for the link).
http://hankjohnson.house.gov/
http://www.house.gov/apps/list…..2_nay.html
~~ WASHINGTON — Congressman Hank Johnson today released the following statement after Congress’ vote on the economic bailout bill:
“Without giving serious thought to workable alternatives, I simply cannot support a bill that further burdens the taxpayer and does nothing to address the economy from the bottom-up. Like every American, I know that we must find a way to fix Wall Street and protect our nation’s economy. I remain deeply frustrated that the President’s bill which I voted against, for the second time in less than a week, was the only option on the table.”
“I remain in agreement with many of the greatest economic minds in the country that there are alternatives to this acutely flawed bill — yet none of those alternatives were even considered. In a debate as serious as this, I find it profoundly disturbing that there was one, and only one, option.”~~
yeah. must say that one really surprised me.
…. if it was only a republican administration pushing the bailout, it would have been easier for dems like edwards to oppose it. with the party’s national leader (obama) pushing the bailout – it’s much harder. reminds me of how nafta got passed. bush 41 could never have gotten it passed by a D congress. but clinton could and did.
this effect – of making the Ds in congress effectively more conservative – is one of the things i consider when trying to consider what an obama presidency would look like.
Hank Johnson is at the top of my list right now.
link to edwards statement – from cspan archive
I think Obama will hire competent people, and I suspect he will tell them to do the wrong things, but they will at least do the wrong things competently. Biden is the Senator from MBNA and I have little trust in him but perhaps he could shrug that off to help his beloved middle class after geting a couple more 2×4 messages from the economy. Palin is, forgive me, a joke, she does not have the necessary knowledge, nor does she seem to be the type to be able to acquire it fast enough. McCain is verging in senile and is too erratic, and he would hire mostly incompetents, because that’s all that Republicans have. Plus he’s completely not to be trusted on foreign affairs.
Some here may be interested in a new Oxdown post by Pach:
Donna Edwards Explains Her Yes Vote on Bailout
You’re not voting for Obama.
White supremacists around the US, thank you. They’ll interpret your non-vote as support.
Most everyone around here knew that neither Obama nor Clinton were liberals. Most people here understand, however, that Obama is the only choice for liberals. The Democratic party is about a millimeter to the left of the GOP. As bad as it is, that’s the way it is.
I missed Donna Edwards comment to Frank, can you link or paraphrase.
Sorry in said it in my next. Please pass on my thanks and complimemts to Stirling good closely argued meaty reads are always a pleaseure.
Also I really miss “oldman” having him crunch the numbers on this would be a weapon and a half … He and Du – who is highly mathematically inclined, had a lengthy and vigorous correspondence btw.
Oh well gone but definitely not forgotten and sorely missed by many.
At this point I am somewhat regretting Clinton not getting in. Yes, she voted for, but the plan she put up made a lot more sense than this and I hope she would have pushed for it. Furthermore I don’t think Clinton would allow a policy to persist she didn’t think worked, the wonk’s mind (and she has one) won’t allow it.
And no one, I mean no one, can figure out how Paulson’s plan is supposed to do what he says it will.
Thank you.
Yes, I miss Oldman frequently. He filled the gap between me and Stirling in intellectual terms, and he was also my friend. A lot of stuff just never gets done because he isn’t here to do it, and it isn’t what Stirling or I would do.
One of the reasons I’m so angry about US healthcare. In a universal healthcare system he probably would have lived. It makes me angry every time I think about it, even now.
You misunderstand what I wrote; her reply was excellent sarcasm given Frank’s ‘dancing around the facts’ response to her question of the legislation would help those facing foreclosure; I -like Selise- was disappointed with her vote but would like to see more of her type -and Marcy Kaptur- in the House and Senate.
Thanks for the clarification Selise; concur.
And for more on whether the Freddie and Fannie fiasco that is an underlying cause of where we are:
http://www.fool.com/investing/…..ddie-.aspx
And to clarify for all, I concur with the author of ‘All Governments Lie’.
http://www.amazon.com/All-Gove…..0684807130
i think this is an important point. i would not expect obama to have a heck-of-a-job moment wrt to acute katrina response.
We can’t blame the Senators who voted for this atrocious bill laced with fresh heroin. The blame lies in the House of Reps. They could have voted this down and started from scratch. But they didn’t.
Congressman Mike Michaud of Maine voted AGAINST this bill twice this week. Great work Mike! I can’t wait to cast my vote for you in November. ;-)
I’m not a liberal or easily classified; and since you are calling me out, I’m voting for Cynthia McKinney. So the ‘white supremacists’ are going to be disappointed.
I’ll grant you that Obama made a colossal error in not picking her for VP, but she’s a Senator from NEW YORK.
Of course she voted “yes.”
I would love for more Democratic Senators to put daylight between themselves and Paulson. Feingold voted “no.”
Go ahead and vote for McKinney if you like. I have to confess that I myself am pretty pissed off by ObamaCo. So, I can understand why people are considering other alternatives.
But, let me add that McKinney was my rep for 4 years, before things got redistricted around here, and I paid attention to her antics while she was my rep., got defeated, and then went on to challenge Hank Johnson in the newly redistricted seat. I would never vote for her for anything. I have no respect for her, or her antics.
With what “liberal” positions do you not agree or not support?
You’re writing in McKinney for President?
Ok, I apologize. Not sure I really believe you. I’ll be checking for write-ins for Cynthia for President.
I appreciate your support for Ian and FDL. I hope you financially support FDL.
I have no problem with disgust for Vichy Democrats. I just want to keep us all fighting (in a non-violent kind of way) for liberal legislation.
She is the Green Party candidate.
Are we in EPU-land yet? I hope not, because this news below belongs here:
Democrat representative: “Bush Threatened Martial Law if We Voted ‘No!’”
Is this for real? Does this explain why Congress got rolled once again?
Bob in HI
I don’t know much about Cynthia, I am interested in what “antics” you refer to?
I’m afraid we as liberals can’t be too picky. She’s strongly against Iraq. It doesn’t take much to be a friend to liberals, but most on Capitol Hill find a way to get out of it.
Is anyone financially supporting hard Cindy Sheehan to take down Nancy Pelosi? Nope! She’s even protested the Feds about this bailout:
http://www.opednews.com/articl…..5-531.html
But I suppose it’s always fun to bitch and not do anything about it. Besides, it’s a little too late to get Dennis Kucinich on the ballot in November.
can you give an an example to illustrate your point re mckinney? i haven’t decided yet where to caste my protest vote. thanks.
For commenters blaming Fannie and Freddie, and bad mortgages:
That is NOT the problem. If it were simply a matter of bad mortgages, this would be a much simpler problem. The big problem right now is malfunctioning credit market. The malfunctioning credit market is a result of the unregulated and unsupervised securitization of these bad mortgages, and the unregulated insurance industry for the bad mortgages and their derivative securities. And unregulated leveraging. The result is insitutions that are unable to valuate the securities they hold, and unable to evaluate the solvency of miost other institutions which with they do business (because they know these other insitutions cannot value the securities that they themselves own, and the reasonable suspicion that many of them have bee wiped out due to very high leveraging).
It is true that the Fannie Freddie GSE system has been a mess and should be changed. It is true that there were lots of bad practices in the mortgage and real estate industry, apart from Freddie and Fannie. This includes shady and irresponsible and foolish home purchasers. But that is not the critical factor in the current credit crisis mess.
This is hard message that many cannot accept. Unregulated financial markets for derivative securities and insurance do not function well -they never have. We have seen yet another instance of that.
The derivative securities and insurance markets is where the action is in explaining and fixing this crisis. Period.
Much appreciated.
And on CNBC today one of the hosts said he expected at least 2 banks to fail next week. This comment was made AFTER the bill went through. Spit.
Hi selise- hard for me to remember from way back when, but email me if you want more about my opinions.
Basically, she was ignoring her constituents, and poking her nose into stuff that would get her press, like the firing of the Dean of the Business school. She didn’t need to get involved in that. Her take on that “outrage” was what a lot of other people were saying anyway, so her time would have been better spent actually doing her job. She did it for local publicity.
She got elected to GA-04 after redisticting (having been turfed out of her seat in the pre-redisctricting area, where she was my rep.) She served one term, before she got beaten badly by Hank Johnson. irrc she was the ONLY Dem Congressperson who DID not have a website as a means of contact, among maybe 5 Ds and Rs total.
That’s exactly what I think, and among other things that threat aned the credit meltdown it would immediately provoke is what sent the corporate lobbyists to Congress in droves. They were like Australian flies: swat a million and there’s millions left buzzing around your eyes and nose. I thought from the beginning that one factor — not the only one but perhaps the triggering one — was an order from foreign holders of US debt to get this thing paid for, or else. Paulson blinked at the ‘or else’, and I think we would too if we knew what it was.
I’m in CA; the Green Party, Peace and Freedom Party, Constitution Party, and Libertarian Party are all on the ballot and do not require a write in.
What I know of McKinney is that her stands on impeaching Bush and against the Iraq war when such were considered ‘not acceptable’(especially by the Dem leadership which sank her deliberately) say a lot; add to that the Green Party platform:
http://www.greenparty.org/Platform.php
Here’s my ‘bottomline’; I’ve voted for almost 44 years and after the 2000 robbery, I dug deep into elections, including auditing my local election official and the results of elections using Diebold voting machines. succinctly, a few years back I decided that I was tired -sick and tired- of choosing between the ‘lesser of two evils’ and voting for who I though would be the best ‘devil that I know’. And I became totally disillusioned with an electoral system that was rigged to only provide a choice between Dem’s and Repubs’(who -in my researching came to conclude was really just one party, the ‘corporate’ party).
So now I vote for who I think best represents my view and encourage others to do the same:
http://www.3rdparty.org/
http://www.thirdpartyticket.com/
Stopped off at a Wachovia branch on Market Street in SF to take out some cash today. Chit chatted with the receptionists and offered my condoleances. They have been bought out by Wells Fargo, who have a branch across the street. Good-bye receptionist jobs at Wachovia. Very sad. I could see it in their faces.
p.s. wish the edit function would come back- she got badly beaten in the Dem primary by Hank Johnson, and it was a well-deserved loss.
http://hankjohnson.house.gov/index.shtml
Boo- see my response to selise above. I know a lot about her, as she was my rep. Yes, she was against Iraq. Okay, fine. But she is a loose cannon, and totally irresponsible.
Bob, in the earlier thread Selise where Selise was posting from the ‘debate’ today, a youtube clip was provided where someone-I forget the Congress critter- stated that ’some of us were told that martial law would be declared if this bill wasn’t passed”; that was on Monday of this week. And yes, as Danny Schecter has pointed out on ‘News Dissector’ the law was passed by Congress which would allow Bush to do so given if he judged that a ‘crisis’ was upon the U.S. that required such in his judgment. Yes, it is law, thanks to our Congress critters.
Citi is contesting the buyout with the Fed and S+P has placed both Wells Fargo and Wachovia on it’s ‘creditwatch’ list.
Oh and BTW-I don’t mind talking to myself- the House adjourned without holding Rove in contempt.
Heil Rove
What can I say? I live in hope. What’s the alternative? Staying home? Nader? Barr? Write in Kucinich or Feingold? . Perhaps we need to think in terms of another party or a real revolution with guns unless we can bring out millions of people as in Venezuela when we tried to depose Chavez. Right now I’m hardcore Obama and I understand why he is not confrontational. Race is the elephant in the living room. Should he be perceived as a pushy black guy, he may well lose.
Thanks I appreciate that.
You’ve obviously paid your dues.
I hope you find FDL helpful, I know I do.
My guess is that, if we had a thorough discussion, I would share many of your serious and legitimate concerns about her limitations.
I don’t mean to make light of them, I guess, because she votes with liberals so frequently, I try extra hard to overlook them.
Selise, If you are still here, McKinney unfortunately followed in her father’s footsteps. She ran a very anti-Semitic campaign against an opponent and you could probably google that. Denise Majette initially beat her in a primary because of a cross over vote. Denise did a good job as a representative but resigned to run for a Senate seat and has since dropped out of politics. Hank Johnson replaced Denise and is doing a great job. McKinney was always more about herself than the country and her constituency, which is unfortunate because she is a bright woman.
Well put.
I think Obama, like any Presidential candidate, of any ethnicity, has to run to the middle.
IMO, Harry Reid, Pelosi, and Hoyer are much more complicit than Obama.
I am hopeful that liberals, the unions, and the black caucus will demand an ROI from Paulson on every nickel he spends out of this 799 billion. Just because Congress authorized him to spend it, does not mean we have to stand by silently while he massively overpays. This ain’t over.
Thanks, I did not know, but I am not surprised. One of the consequences of depriving the descendants of the slaves of decent education has been virulent anti-semitism. They read the the New Testament very literally, that’s where they learned about anti-semitism.
Liberals, however, still desperately need the support of the black caucus to get any political traction. I don’t mean to in any way to condone anti-semitism, but I recognize the tension.
Weird, Wells Fargo had the highest credit rating of any bank till this second. Something smells bad here. Very bad.
JPL9- thanks for the comment. I agree with all of what you say, except one point. I don’t necessarily agree that Majette won because of a cross-over vote. I just don’t know. I do know that McKinney was pushing the idea that she lost bec. of the crossover vote. However, this was not a district where a Repug. had any chance. I can say that plenty of Dems in my district voted for Majette. The Dem mood around here was ABC. Anyone But Cynthia.
Her former district is still represented by blacks and in fact, she did try to come back against Hank Johnson and she got beat handily.
Hopefully Denise will reenter the political arena. I personally miss her voice.
p.s. Just to add- yes, she ran a deeply-Semitic campaign. Oh, did she ever. Father’s footsteps indeed. But, for clarification to those not familiar with the district, this wouldn’t have tipped the balance. Not a huge voting block. At most very minor. What I think really offended people was the ugliness of the approach. And, her general lack of responsibility to Anyone But Cynthia.
Oh yes she did! Very handily.
JPL9- I haven’t followed Denise’s career of late, but I agree.
Cynthia made a few rants against Bush and that alone caused some to think, she was different that what she is. She’s an opportunist! I know of a few republicans that donated to Denise in her Senate run. Our state is so red that it would take more than a few republicans for her to win.
I cannot see how an alleged $700 Billion bailout will fix what the previous $4 trillion hasn’t.
Say what? My back-of-the-envelope scribbling tallies up from the first Fed $500 billion injection in August last year (as well as help from ECB and BoE) and then the TAFs, TSLFs, and so on. More than one analyst I read comes up with easily $1.6 trillion last year, and as much in H1 this year.
Most recent combined intervention was Fed, ECB, BoJ, and BoE … $280 Billion more or less under the radar.
Who finances the U.S.?
1. China
2. Japan
3. Russia (!)
4. India
5. Gulf states and all the rest.
Ian … google Wells Fargo complaints and you should find a lot of angst from their customers, despite a good credit rating.
JPL9- I am laughing right now bec. I think we two are just talking to each other about Cynthia, in the deep EPU zone, and this is totally OT for all but 2 prev. other commenters who mentioned it. I hope Selise comes back to read, bec. before you mentioned it, I had forgotten about the anti-semitic stuff.
This may be (Cynthia may be) an exceptional case, but it really is SO important to get info from local people who know the turf and the terrain before embracing someone.
In thinking it over a little more, people who want to be President just have to be a “special” kind of person, that is someone who thinks that they, and they alone know what’s best for the country and only they can execute those beliefs.
My sense is that Obama felt that he had no choice than to get this bail out if he wanted any kind of government at all to govern.
George W. Bush has bankrupted every company he has ever worked for starting with Arbusto and finishing up with the United States of America. He and his administration are incompetent or don’t give a damn or both.
But are they solvent?
Er, or any less insolvent than Citi, anyway.
I don’t claim to know how all this is going to work out but I am willing to bet the tail will be pinned on the Donkey’s ass, it will all be the fault of Obama and Pelosi when the stuff hits the fan.
The main objective of the Bush Regime for the past year has been to sandbag Obama on all fronts.
First, game the military situation so that if Obama actually does bring all the troops home, there will be major trouble in the Middle East.
Second, suck so much money out of the economy that Obama won’t be able to enact any of the special programs he wants, like health insurance. The Republican Mantra, as our dollars disappear into the sands of the Middle East and into foreign banks, is that “we can’t afford it.” They want to tie Obama hand and foot so that in 2012, a refurbished Republican party, lead by a rehabilitated Sarah Palin, Bradley Schlozman, Monica Goodling, Alberto Gonzales & all, can run on a ticket of Obama’s “failures.”
Bob in HI
From comments on the Donna Edwards post, this is something I hadn’t heard (or imagined). Seems folks in Congress were threatened with martial law. I’m starting to move past livid indignation into something closer to sweaty fear.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaG9d_4zij8
Well, that is a problem with the stinko bill. It does nothing to fix the problem with the securities markets. It is national scam, disgrace and a total failure of natonal leadership and responsibility.
Without it the economy risked very severe damage, With it we have a somewhat but unknown reduced risk of very severe damage. There is a not small chance that it will make the credit markets for Main Street worse, in order to protect the financial industry. My only hope that such a scenario does not unfold, and it slows the damage to the economy done until Feb 2009. If McCain is elected, or Obama loses his nerve, then we are lost. We will be Japan in the 1990s, excpet much worse.
My comment was not meant to be an endorsement of the stinko bill passed today.
So… good luck to us.
What are you talking about? The Dems haven’t farted by themselves since ‘00′ unless the held the hand of the Grand Old Potty.
from the comments section of another blog…it raises troubling questions and is a spot on commnet
“On Monday, Citbank made a bid for the banking portion of Wachovia for $2.1 billion (excluding the investment and asset management divisions), with the FDIC to take over the mortgage portfolio. At that time, Citi signed an exclusivity contract with Wachovia.
Because they needed more time to conduct due diligence on the entire operation, Wells subsequently made a $15 billion bid on Wednesday for all of Wachovia’s assets, including all their bad paper with no governmental assistance.
Citi is arguing that because they have an exclusivity contract, Wells’ offer should not be considered. The FDIC appears to have no problem with continuing their partnership with Citi in the matter, even though Wells has made an alternative bid that would not call for the FDIC intervention.
To me, this is a very interesting and troubling development. In essence, we have the Treasury Department, in part through an intermediary, bidding on the assets of a corporation in competition with a private company.
It is my understanding the role of the FDIC is supposed to protect the assets of individuals in the event of a failure. In this case, we have the FDIC acting to take ownership of assets when private sector alternatives are available. In other words, we have the Treasury Department in competition with the market without equal access for competition.
I’m not sure I’m real comfortable with that…” Spike
This is his blog http://worldsofspike.blogspot.com/ commentary on the political futures market.