I’d rather see Dodd-Frank-Paulson, which is much better than the original plan, pass than not. The true cost to taxpayers will probably be close to zero, and it would buy some time. But I’m not passionate about this. The real financial rescue still lies in the future, probably under the Obama administration.
Krugman is assuming two things:
1) This is a downturn which will correct itself in the next few years at which point in time the paper that the Treasury buys will return to full value or at least more than they were bought for. Since it will have been bought at a discount, that means the government will make a profit.
2) That Treasury will act competently and with an eye to making a profit and as such will not pay more than the value they can eventually get.
If you believe any of:
1) That the paper will not return high enough to recoup losses, since Treasury will be buying it at above market value;
2) That this is the beginning of more than a normal recession;
3) That Paulson in particular and Treasury in general will not make getting the money back a priority, but instead make their priority overpaying the banks to help them;
4) That because of information asymmetries, as Soros has explained, the Treasury is going to get stiffed with the worst crap;
then you don’t come to the same conclusion as Krugman does. Krugman, fundamentally, as he says himself in the article, believes that these people are operating in good faith and that they are not actually incompetent. Krugman is, as it were, extending them the benefit of the doubt.
Given the track record of the Bush administration, I would respectfully submit that extending them the benefit of the doubt is not wise. In fact it might be considered the opposite of wise. Remember also that we are talking about the Bush administration, the 700 billion can be all spent by the time Obama gets into power, and it probably will be.
Krugman praised Bernanke when he was appointed and extended him a ton of benefit of the doubt. He was wrong to do so. There are few economists I respect more than Krugman, but he is still an insider who believes that other people who are part of the club are to be granted the assumption that they are both competent and operating in good faith. Since Bernanke has turned out to be a disaster, and since Paulson’s track record is abysmal, I will submit that Krugman is wrong to think this.
As such, he is also very probably wrong to assume that the bailout bill will probably do no real harm and have no real cost.



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Bernie Sanders seems to be the only sane, and honest, man in the Senate.
Thanks Ian.
digg
Ian, only if you care to respond. Will McCain support the bailout as enthusiastically as Obama is, or at all?
Why shouldn’t we give the Bush Administration the benefit of the doubt? It’s worked so well up to now.
Krugman has been taking stupid pills.
Sanders for President; compare what he is saying to what Obama said.
Krugman ‘wants to believe’ because he doesn’t want to acccept that he could be so wrong.
My bet is the usual McCain boilerplate, if anything at all.
This is the time for leadership and Ideas will the house pass this bill a second time around?
And washing it down with the best Jim Jones Cool Aid!
Paul Krugman–Double Agent
http://www.stockmarketimplode……ugman.html
Now, we argue over the details of the bailout plan, but not whether or not there should be a bailout at all.
Exactly!!! how quickly we went from yes/no to how?
Sander’s amendment can be read here:
http://www.sanders.senate.gov/…..?id=303941
Every House member ought to be sent it and asked why they don’t support such ideas.
Especially Pelosi and Hoyer.
Many here have probably seen this video already, but I love, love, love Bernie Sanders in it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lkqb1pQrCcg
Slapping everyone around!
I think he’ll vote for it, but he’s very unpredictable. I think he’s screwed this up badly, from a political point of view he should have thrown down against it. I assume his backers have jerked the chain, hard.
uh oh sessions up.
sessions denies the problem is because goopers don’t like regulation. nailed it!
excellent statement from sanders. he shows what is possible, and all others so far suffer from the comparison.
Sanders says raise the tax rates on the rich and have them help pay for the bailout. Then he reads what some of those Wall Street CEOs whose companies crashed made, as well as Paulson’s.
This post lays it bare. This is a power play for the money pure and simple.
Paulson will make millions and so will his friends.
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com…..ction.html
sessions railing against the railroads? huh?
I’ve lost track. When’s the Senate actually voting on this thing? My head is spinning. ;)
here’s a shocker: sessions hates amtrak.
Railroads are new-fangled, dangerous, and unproven.
I think around 9 PM ET?
I just got back from a meeting & find that Sessions is fiddling an irrelevant blame game while the U.S. is burning.
Oh, and they upset the sheep.
And it’s so like Biden to make trains a partisan thing.
Oh, and, uh, btw, having to pass the barrel o’ porkarama has nothing to do with defaulted mortgages
The other housing rescue starts today
The FHA’s $300 billion Hope for Homeownership program is now open for business. But will banks be willing to sign up?
By Tami Luhby, CNNMoney.com senior writer
October 1, 2008: 4:51 PM ET
http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/0…..2008100116
More
http://www.hud.gov/fha/home080730.cfm
gulp. It’s one thing to suspect that your neighbor is molesting the neighborhood girls and it’s another to get a peek in the window. that makes me want to vomit with sheer rage to the bones knowing that we are that vulnerable.
God I hate these guys.
When is Shumers term up – That guy really turns me off
Much appreciated.
Its easier than admitting that your entire life’s work and ideas are wrong.
In his last jab at Sanders, Kudlow says yes to socialism for the rich and no to healthcare for working people.
The new talking point to promote the bailout is that the bailout will free up credit markets for Main Street and taxpayers. Kudlow used it. They’re all saying it. The truth is that Banks are not compelled by the bailout in any way to loosen credit restrictions. If your Credit rating is under 640 you can’t get a home loan.
Senator Mukasey’s a whore for the financial industry and will probably get reelected ad infinitim because no one will have the money to run against him.
Chuck Schumer (D-Wall Street) is for this bill. Talks about meeting with Paulson. Paulson told him the sky is falling and Schumer who is very astute naturally blindly believed him.
Now Schumer saying how awful the initial Paulson plan was, ignoring that the bill remains in its essentials the Paulson plan.
Mentions the joke Congressional vote for the second $350 billion. What a huckster. He probably has put subsidies for snake oil in this monster.
Can I just say this whole economic crisis episode is depressing me? I don’t know who to believe or whose judgment I can trust. I once held Krugman’s word as basically economic gospel but now I don’t know. I literally can’t decide whether I want to call my representatives and yell at them to vote ‘no’ on this or sit back and let it happen because it is necessary to save the economy. Who is right? What is the best way forward? I have no idea.
We must give him a primary challenge.
Wall Street revealed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKIFfgPLY8I
Paulson has Big Bucks in Goldman Sacks options at risk in this bail out.
Why is this guy not in jail?
Why do banks need to sign up? why isn’t it directed right at the home buyer? why aren’t we hearing about this?
is this all about securities to inflate bank and investment portfolios? i’m in the weeds now ridin’ on sessions train. is he done yet? I had to mute it.
after reading the nakedcapitalism link I just want to say thank you to schumie for the extra special kabuki about “tranches”. you still got it baby!
Since it doesn’t require banks and financial companies to come clean about their losses, there is no indication that confidence will be re-established in the system or credit for ordinary Americans freed up.
yep, he’s augered in pretty deep.
My crazy-ass Senators are split per the local TV news. Coburn, who claims he wants fiscal responsibility and is against (you guessed it) earmarks, is for it, while Inhofe, a wholly owned subsidiary of the oil industry, says he is leaning against it.
sorry for the slow response: last i heard, the vote is for sometime after sundown (i’ve heard both 6pm and 9pm). for yesterday’s UC, see my morning comment . i’ve posted updates throughout the day, but don’t know where they are right now.
also, if you don’t mind me pimping some oxdown diaries on topic see jim’s, hugh’s and dbaker’s (links here)
Good thing Domenici’s retiring. He’s been reduced to babbling.
Even a crook like Domenici thinks this is a scam.
Inhoffe is married into the Walton family>
Let me suggest this as to ‘who’s telling the truth’:
http://www.rgemonitor.com/blog/roubini
He’s been on top of this for years.
I’ve read all 3. Good stuff.
Really? I had no idea.
Paul O’Neill on DG’s show saying the administration was in Fantasyland during the mortgage craze.
I guess that’s why he’s for it.
Isn’t it telling that anyone who has to stake their job on this bill isn’t willing to do so? Nevermind us financial illiterates out here in reality land, but no one want this.
WTF, I never wanted to retire anyway.
I don’t remember hearing about the The Hope for Homeowners program, then this morning I picked up part of the paper from a few weeks ago that I hadn’t read yet, and there it was
http://www.sacbee.com/142/story/1199017.html
A commenter here pointed out a few days that the Treasury Dept had a invite only conference call with the industry that very definitely indicates that they are not operating in good faith. (See the link to Naked Capitalism given by MsAnnaNOLA at 18, for discussion). Naked Capitalism has links to other blogs with notes) Here are the bits from the call that disturbed me most:
1-Treasury wanted to game the language of the House bill to get the $700 billion right away
2-Taxpayer cost recovery was secondary to supporting the financial industry (that says they wanted to go the Japanese way, which would turn out worse for us than Japan, and it turned out badly for Japan -decade of low grade chronic recessionary conditions)
3-pricing of the dodgy securities would not be carefully done, they discussed paying up to par for sercurities of unkown quality
I do not know why Krugman would assume that they have good faith.
James Galbraith said that if we do not trust the Treasury to execute in good faith, all Paulson-Bernanke elements of the plan should be deleted, or they should reject the bill
Okay, thanks ubetchaiam, I have a new prophet to follow: Dr. Doom!
He HAd a lot of family in the Tulsa
http://www.investorsinsight.co…..world.aspx
William Greider of the Nation nailed on DemocracyNow! this am.
This will do nothing for main street. It’s trickle down again. But the lords have all their critters believing in that.
d’uh. of course you have. lol, i should have known.
Can ANYONE tell me why That piece of shit TOm Delay is on the talking head shows? Tweety had him yesterday and Karl Rove’s butt-buddy David Gregory has him today.
I’m SO fucking sick of Delay being put out there as some sort of statesman, he’s a FUCKING CRIMINAL!
I still like my TOILETS idea :)
I just posted a lot of fax numbers on your ‘oxdown’.
Trickle down — means piss on.
David Gregory is interviewing bug exterminator Tom Delay. Gregory has the journalistic talent of a Jeff Gannon along with the telegenic personality of a Tucker Carlson.
There is NO popular support for this Bailout Bill – Whoever Votes for this Bill will Own Bush’s Failure.
If the Senate wants this to pass this evening, they’re going to have to get Almost Every Senator – Dem and Rep – who Isn’t up for re-election this year to Vote for it.
Not.gonna.happen.
No Politician up for re-election is going to Vote for his or her Own Political Suicide, either.
The Best Answer here is Ian’s Plan – it stops the bleeding and limps US through to the next Administration without letting Paulson spend $700B in two months before running away to a Cozy Retirement.
i was off looking for a partial transcript i made a couple of years ago from an audio of an event with paul krugman, amy goodman and greg palast. this is a bit of what krugman said then:
i think krugman can see it when it’s only republicans screwing up, harder for him when democrats are involved too. that’s my working hypothesis, anyway.
thanks! but you should make your own diary because mine is way down the list now, and it would be great to have them at the top of the list.
if you do, i promise to give it a “recommend”!
That is what happens when McCain gets a leak in his bladder bag.
Shelby blaming the CRA. Loans should be based on the merits, and minorities by definition I suppose have no merit. Now greedy Wall Street bankers who ran their companies and the financial system into the ground, these guys have merit. Shelby now wanders off to rail against Freddie and Fannie. He doesn’t mention Bush’s push for homeownership, i.e. the ownership society, financed with funny money.
c-span is reporting that the sellout bill will be voted on at 9pm.
Still can not believe no one has brought up the role of the Office of the Comptroller
You know, these guys are really a lot worse than, “I got mine, you get your own.” They are saying, “I got mine, and I’ll do my best to see you can’t get your own.”
Pigs.
Where’s an abattoir when you need one?
BC
The benefit of the doubt? No one in the Bush administration or Congress has deserved that for at least eight years. Why would Krugman extend it now that they’re asking for more than $700 billion now, and more later, when there’s no basis for that amount other than they wanted it to be large? The demand is reminiscent of an unscrupulous divorce lawyer, not a responsible steward of the public’s dime. Incredulity all round should be the order of the day.
Who’s chairing the senate?
I hope a Senator who knows something slams Shelby. If this crisis was just about a bunch of bad loans, we would be lucky. What an slimebag. If the CRA and big gummint did it line gets into the corporate media, there needs to be ginormous pushback.
dodd asking UC for an additional 30 minutes of debate.
bill nelson (d-florida) sounds like he might vote no. would he be the first dem to state his opposition (if that’s what it is that i’m hearing)?
Per CBS News poll today (on TV) – Do you think Congress:
Will Act Too Fast 55%
Will Move Too Slowly 40%
Also, over half still don’t like the bailout.
It does make you wonder, huh? Not only is Delay suddenly rearing his ugly head, but so isn’t Gingrich (who is in favor of a bailout). Makes me think this is the ticket to replace OldTimer/EndTimer. Hey, could be.
Not sure but all the speakers have been saying Madame
I can’t stand listening to this anymore. Going to make dinner.
i don’t believe i’m writing this… but bill nelson is making sense – we have to do something for the housing market. we need loan modifications.
I saw her, but too briefly to recognize who she is. I also don’t recognize her voice, which is nicely deep. (Unlike a veep candidate who shall remain nameless.)
bill nelson now slamming the ratings agencies.
the manufacturing of consent.
Any Senators been able to explain how long exactly the “rescue” bill’s going to postpone the inevitable next installment payment?
It’s pathetic that the republicans like Nelson get this right.
Yeah, but they don’t have it yet.
lindsey graham up.
complements everyone who has worked on the bill.
more troubles lying ahead for america.
people are getting phone calls. people are against this. who are these people? a phone call from mad people helps you only so much. it is up to me to have a little broader view of what to do.
they are trying.
graham: fear fear fear. if we don’t pass this bill, all kind of bad things are going to happen next week.
they sure are trying my patience
Definitely. I think a lot of people saw the market drop and got scared about their 401(k)s. And, of course, the nonstop “sky is falling” on cable.
OK so tell me… when does wall street free up credit for payroll loans?
lol.
Lindsay Graham is a fool.
Very trying, selise.
When did he get the OS upgrade to Fool?
Kerry is going to support the bill.
Somehow I find Lindsey Graham’s workingman’s shtik singularly unconvincing. He says he learned about economics from working in his parent’s liquor store. I think this shows.
dodd up to say that bill nelson is wrong to say that the bill will not prevent golden parachutes – quotes from section 111.
quotes moynihan – you are entitled to your own opinion not your own facts.
well, i guess we’ll have to take our own look and see who we think has it right and who is bullshitting us.
The sky is falling according to Mr Kerry.
Make working capital available to MAIN STREET not Wall Street. banks scqared to lend? Scared of what?
my senator kerry up.
kerry:
there is a potential of our financial system collapsing. crisis of liquidity.
if we don’t act tonight, the whole system can come grinding to a halt.
Kerry is saluting and being responsible and being bipartisan.
Kritter Lindsay Graham: “My Dad owned a Liquor Store. And everything I learned about politics I learned in a liquor store.”
Make your own joke.
kerry: we must do the responsible thing here.
[me: do i remember kerry saying something similar about his vote for the iraq war?]
Well if you can have foreign affairs expertise by living across the Bering from Russia anything goes.
The problem of course is that Kerry is listening to Wall Street lobbyists and not econ profs and Main Street whose money is about to give away.
There are many ways to say home owners from foreclosure, of providing college loans.
Let wall street pay for their own bailout… The top 1% made WAY more than a trillion in the last 8 years.
Dodd slams Nelson saying he is entitled to his own opinion but not his own facts about golden parachutes. But restrictions on golden parachutes simply don’t apply except prospectively, not to past contracts, not to current contracts. And they only apply if a company goes bankrupt and the Treasury takes it over.
How do you like those facts, Senator Dodd?
kerry: i hope the senate will resoundingly pass this tonight.
The senate is the mouth piece of the Financial “industry” and most are milllionaires are are worried about their stock port folios.
Re Kerry and a question I raised earlier, lying or clueless? You decide.
i can’t ever remember another time i though bill nelson made sense and dodd did not. it’s hard to keep one’s balance when the world keeps flipping upside down.
clueless.
Wall Street got everyone by the short hairs it seems. I call it extortion.
How does this bill free up credit for payroll loans… for mortgages? HOW? Tell me HOW.
Thanks for the live-blogging. Life intruded for a while and you folks made it easy to catch up. It is pleasing to hear Bill Nelson talking sense today. I felt that the staffer in his office who took my call this morning was really listening and from what you say, it sounds like he could buy into the ideas Doggett and his friends are pushing. As for Dodd, yes he does look like he might disappoint again after such a promising beginning…
boxer doing a good job of slamming republican deregulation. conveniently overlooks democratic deregulation.
two hours till the voting starts on the bailout errr rescue.
Bright Shiny Pixie Dust, along with Collaterized Mortgage Cocktail Weenies.
thanks jim. sometimes it feels i’m typing notes only for my own benefit. but i think this is such a key moment in our country’s history, just have to watch.
Barbara Boxer continues the blathering about how we need the bailout bill. She blames deregulation. So why shouldn’t we re-regulate now, Barbara? Why wait? If you want to re-impose Glass-Steagall why not do it now?
Tester is voting no good for him.
my suggestion.
I agree but mine are the old and new official versions
ah, right. i get so confused by the official stories.
gregg rambling now. not saying, i don’t think, any thing in addition to what he said earlier today.
gregg:
there is no question that these are the times that try this institution.
we have a responsibility to act in mature way.
Cantwell’s up. She was the one who was chairing the senate earlier.
After a while, most of the talking points have been made and what we are left with is repetition of them. Still there are a few surprises like Sanders’ stellar speech or Nelson’s position or Dodd’s hissy fit in reaction to Nelson’s speech.
cantwell up.
wants two days to talk about what to do.
i know what it’s like to take a tough vote and lose a seat.
i’m going to vote based on what i think is right for the american people.
the problem with the legislation before us is that it is choosing winners and losers. i am for the full faith and credit of this country backing these institutions, but not the treasury picking the winners.
sounds like the talking points memo got read, even if the bill did not.
I liked Tester on MSNBC he is a farmer from Montana trying to represent the farmers and the rest of the people of Montana
i don’t think i’ve heard tester today?
durbin:
12 of us at the meeting where we were told how bad the crisis is.
problem is greed and deregulation.
Teddy has another bailout thread a couple of flights up.
thanks. beat me to it. here’s the link:
Is Your House Blue Dog Key to Stopping the Bailout’s Passage?
He was being interviewed on MSNBC along with that dummy from
MO what’s his name
ah, thanks. no cable here.
With all due respect, (don’t you just LOVE that disclaimer?) given the current situation I’ll take Dr. Krugman’s advice over yours.
You want to know why a “Wall Street should pay for the bailout” amendment, such as Sanders wanted, will not pass? It’s because of the Truth that they not only don’t want to pay to help their competitors, but they want us to put money into their industry.
You’re right. They are holding the economy for ransom. Why on earth would they accept having to pay the ransom themselves?
This is on very strange surreal time we’re living in.
Both Nelson’s are Democrats!
Hey, we live in a free country. There’s no law that says they EVER have to.
Wouldn’t that be a fun joke on Congres, to let them hand over $700B and then to STILL NOT lend credit? What’s going to force them to loan?