i will look for you on current threads, in the hope that we can continue the conversation.

I do. The reason being that the discourse and by the extension the media still favors a lot of Republican themes.

when would the time be right and how would i be able to tell it was the right time?

That’s the trickiest part, and I honestly don’t know, but we’re on the right track. It’s a matter of education. Remember that it took a Goldwater to beget Reagan. If you’ve read David Brock’s The Republican Noise Machine, you’ll find that there was a concerted effort from multiple right-wing think tanks to “work the refs, since the late 60s.” We are on the way of countering that with Brock’s Media Matters, the Center for American Progress, and other progressive efforts to counter a lot of misinformation and propaganda. As I said above, a Rachel Maddow didn’t happen overnight, but her views have gone from “too crazy for mainstream television” to beating Larry King in prime time.

I would say that once we see a Bill Moyers type on network television or its equivalent, we’ll be a heck of a lot closer.

if now is not the right time, what can we do now to help make tomorrow the right time?

Talk to people. If you’re up to it (and I can’t/won’t because I get tongue tied) call into Right Wing talk shows like Mike Stark does.

A lot of people are intimidated by the Internet and stay well clear of it. There is a lot of misinformation out there. For example, how many times have you gotten e-mails containing urban legends forwarded to you? I go out of my way to write back to those people and engage them. I have found that they really want the best for the country but have been so indoctrinated by silliness perpetrated by lies begotten from right wing think tanks.

In some respects, a lot of people have Stockholm syndrome. Sarah Robinson over at Ornicus (Dave Neiwart’s place) has some excellent posts about converting the seemingly unconvertable.

Another thing that our media culture has cultivated is to celebrate the dumb over the intelligent. It has begotten us George Bush and now Sarah Palin. I find that the left side of blogosphere generally celebrates the intelligent first. It is up to us readers to transmit this into the mainstream.

Boo-Hoo. We shouldn’t have to report unexpected losses! Only expected ones.

Ah, So you have expected losses? Why?

in order to such a bill passed…

as i said, i think the chances of such a bill being passed now is very low. but possibly not zero. do you think it is effectively zero?

I just don’t think the time is right…

when would the time be right and how would i be able to tell it was the right time?

if now is not the right time, what can we do now to help make tomorrow the right time?

To add to this point, we have had zero congressional hearings, under power of subpoena, on any of this stuff. I would certainly like some empirical, not emotional, evidence on seeing what actually happened here.

really, really agree on this point. how can we make that happen? because as far as i can see most, but not all, of the congressional committee hearings are a joke. but if we could get some really excellent witnesses, i think it could be helpful (as michael greenberger was on the oil speculation hearings).

Obama’s clearly a Republican and he’s proved it this time. Not insane enough to belong in the current R party, but Republican. Anything that is done right will have to be pushed on him.

yes.

and i really don’t mind sane republicans – under one condition, that they don’t call themselves democrats. i want the sane republicans to take over the republican party and the progressives to take over the dems.

yeah, i know. only in my dreams. *g*

I know I’m going to say “what Digby said” but the fact of the matter is that, in order to such a bill passed, which is a long shot in the first place, would pretty much require close to 100 percent participation by the Democrats, which the GOP, along with a compliant media, would consequently hang around the necks of every single Democratic incumbent. It is no coninkiedink, for example, that Blue Dog Heath Shuler, hate ‘em or love ‘em voted against the bill.

Again, I certainly agree with the policies behind the bill. I just don’t think the time is right from a political discourse standpoint to get something good passed, and especially under the gun. To add to this point, we have had zero congressional hearings, under power of subpoena, on any of this stuff. I would certainly like some empirical, not emotional, evidence on seeing what actually happened here.

As I am sure you’re sick of reading from me. The GOP does not consider this a crisis, until they talk about bringing our troops home from the Middle East. That’s the low hanging fruit in terms of improving the balance sheet of the US government. That’s the real problem imho.

no way do i get tired of hearing about reason to end the war. and no way am i tired of reading your comments (especially when you disagree with me *g*).

i like krugman a lot, but i think he was wrong this time – not because i know economics. i don’t. at all. but because he doesn’t understand how congress has been working. for example, he still thinks oversight means accountability. but anyone who’s been watching the congressional hearings on cspan knows thats just not so.

In fact, it appears to me with him that “reaching across the aisle” has always been an end in and among itself

i agree.

The problem I have with what you (Selise) have been saying the last few days about passing something now is that I don’t think it’s very good politics. Don’t get me wrong, I certainly wholeheartedly agree with the policy behind what you are saying, but to dovetail into my prior comment, above, the American discourse is such that anything resembling what you are prescribing here would be tarred and feathered as “socialist” which, unfortunately is an absolute loser politically.

the most pissed off members of the progressive caucus are working with wingnuts like issa (from today’s press conference). i think in many ways this is not a right vs. left argument – and that should i think be the immediate focus.

also, while i don’t think a good bill will be passed before november, i don’t think it’s completely impossible either (maybe a 5% chance?). but i think, if we want to start turning public opinion, we have to start making the argument that we have good ideas and are prepared to implement them. fighting for what we think is right now, is part of making that argument. i expect it will take a while, but if we don’t start it will take longer.

even if the bill fails – so what? so what if it is called socialist? is that going to throw the congress to the republicans? i don’t think so.

but here is what we could gain – by tying obama and the congressional dems to a specific policy proposal (and bill) now, we make it harder for them to back off in january. which you know they are going to do.