So, yeah, according to the NYTimes a bailout deal has indeed be reached. Details are a bit sparse and we'll have to wait till tomorrow to really know exactly what is going on. On top of that, although leaders are all agreed, it's not yet clear that they have the backbench votes to push this thing through. Features that seem to be in the bill are:
700 Billion, but Staggered: It looks like Paulson gets 350 billion to play with, the rest will be released later, presumably in January. Mechanism for release is unclear. I would have preferred just giving him a 150 billion, and the rest to follow after a better bill in the new year, since he said he could make do with 150, but it's still better than giving it all to him, since it would have all been gone, pretty much, by the time the new President was sworn in. Now at least Obama (probably) will get to have his Treasury secretary spend the bulk of it. (update: the release is at the President's discretion, unless Congress votes 2/3 against it. Expect the money to be mostly gone by January).
Full Value of the Bailout Concealed: Looks like they will claim some part of the value of the securities purchased, possibly maturity value, as an asset, so the cost booked will not be 700 billion. Since, in fact, no one knows what the maturity value or default risk of most of this stuff is, this is a fiction (aka. BS.) The practical effect will be that if the 700 billion, or 250 billion is still a "at any time" value, then the Treasury secretary will be able to rotate a ton of money through without raising the debt ceiling that much.
No Change In Bankruptcy Laws: Yes, banks will be helped not to go bankrupt, but if you go bankrupt judges won't be able to allow you to keep your house.
Treasury to help people avoid foreclosures if it owns their mortgages: Not sure what this means and the details are vague. Might be very good, might not. This will depend very much both on the specific language, and on the Treasury Secretary in charge.
According to the NYT, only in some cases do taxpayers get an equity stake. Other sources aren't clear on this. I suspect the original idea that if it was a reverse mortgage the government doesn't get a stake, but if the government directly intervenes it does get a stake is what happened. The reverse auction is needed because no normal investor will pay what the banks need to sell this waste for to survive. So, in all cases, in my opinion, if the government buys the banks crap, the government should get equity. Warren Buffet showed the way, and the government should insist on nothing less than the 10% guaranteed dividend convertible shares he got and they should get an amount equal to the maturity value of whatever securities they buy. If banks don't like it, well, they obviously don't really need the help, do they? (Update: this is incorrect, in all cases the government has to get some sort of stake, in either preffered shares or debt, but non-voting. Price and return are up to the secretary.)
Treasury has the authority to issue insurance. I'm not sure if this is required, or if it's an option Paulson has been given. If required I don't really see how it can work—if the government charges a fair price, it'll bankrupt a bunch of companies. If it doesn't, it will cause a huge run as people cash in their insurance. Not to mention that it puts the government on the hook for the entire financial industry. I suppose you could charge healthy companies more and weak companies less, but I suspect that will go over very badly. And I'm not sure how many companies really are healthy.
If it doesn't pay back in 5 years, Treasury to levy fees on the financial industry to get the money back. Not in itself a bad idea, though the question of interest and inflation is something I'm curious about. (Paying back in money 5 years from now is a great deal if there's no interest). I also wonder if in 5 years an administration will have the guts to do this. And what if both the assets and the financial industry haven't recovered enough to get the money back? If the value hasn't recovered, then that may mean that the plan itself hasn't worked and the financial sector is still filled with walking dead (the Japanese banks, 5 years after their meltdown sure were). This is also a case of spending now and pushing into the future. Congress is trying to give itself every way possible to pretend this isn't costing very much and that it'll all be paid back. We'll see. (Update: looks like this is probably optional. Secretary"can", so it depends on who the Secretary and President are.)
The heart remains the Paulson plan. Buy distressed debt, hold on to it, try and sell it later. You either pay too much, in which case you're not setting a market price, or you pay the right price in which case it's not clear that many institutions can survive. The former will be done, since that's the point of the bailout, and what will happen is simple enough—it will calm the roiling waters for some months, and then it will turn out that 700 billion, or a trillion, or whatever, is not enough. Then Congress and the President will have to decide how much money they are willing to pour into an endless hole.
Concluding Remarks: This is a plan that assumes that the government can buy enough bad debt at above market prices to bail out the banking system. Since as long as the government is willing to spend above market prices (and by market I mean "what other banks would pay for this crap") banks won't sell it to each other, the government has taken on an open ended obligation. If the pile isn't that large, then a trillion or so may be enough. But if the pile is much larger than that, and it is, then the government will have to keep ponying up money over and over again. It won't be limited to the original 700 billion, or trillion, or whatever. It will be an ongoing program that the market will become dependent on. Since the fundamental problems of securitization, over-leverage and declining housing prices haven't been fixed, there's little reason to believe that the government could get to the bottom of the pile, since, in fact, it will still be growing. (Especially as the economy gets worse and housing prices continue to drop. And they will, since this provides no floor price for real estate.)
In short, while this plan is an improvement on the original Paulson plan, which is saying, well, almost nothing. It's still a plan that, at the end of the day, won't work. That doesn't mean we won't see some short term benefits. Throw 700 billion bucks at the economy and the financial sector and it will do something. That's still a ton of money. But it won't fix the problem permanently, it will only patch it for a time and even during that time, things will continue to get worse. (For example, expect this to cause oil inflation.)
It's a bad plan that won't fix the economy or the financial sector. So we'll be revisiting this issue in 6 to 9 months or so when it becomes clear that the problem hasn't been solved, and that not solving it is costing a hell of a lot of money which could have been used to actually fix things.
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Good morning
The bailout is nothing but a the last stop on the gravy train for the Bushbuddies. Consumers are better off if failed institutions are handled on an individual case by case basis.
“Treasury to help people avoid foreclosures if it owns their mortgages: Not sure what this means and the details are vague. Might be very good, might not. This will depend very much both on the specific language, and on the Treasury Secretary in charge.”
Might be along these lines
http://www.consumeraffairs.com.....mac04.html
The failed California bank stopped all pending foreclosures at the direction of Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. (FDIC) chair Sheila Bair, who has been prodding lenders to find more ways to keep financially-troubled homeowners in their homes.
Bair said that IndyMac Federal will “very aggressively pursue loan-modification strategies” for homeowners who are stuck with mortgages they can’t afford. She said the goal would be to make those mortgages “affordable on a long-term sustainable basis.”
I still want to see a transaction tax. Why is the financial system absolved from supporting the government it turns to when it fucks up.
Not sure how this foreclosure help will be forthcoming. Many times the servicing is separate from the mortgage. Private entities collect and process the payments for a small percentage. If something goes awry it is then turned over to a different entity for foreclosure.
The government has to buy enough bad debt to drive the prices up? Tell me what will keep the prices up nobody will buy this stuff?
I bet McCain votes against it.
Hey Ian,
Thanks for the cogent analysis.
Any idea if the buyout of these securitized mortgages will trigger an event whereby the credit default swaps would have to paid by the counterparty to the buyer of the swap?
T-
Typical FISA like Congressional response. Rethugs start with an outrageous demand, Congressional Democrats do their negotiating in secret, and the public takes it in the shorts again and again and again. Asshats.
I think it stinks to High Heaven
It’s not putting money into the economy, but into wall street banks which are broke.
If the gov wanted to stim the economy they could do a WPA deal. If the credit markets are frozen because inter bank lending is blocked because of lack of trust… the banks need to kiss and make up and trust each other.
But… that system sucks to begin with. So why are we trying to safe this failed capitalist model?
The entire credit industry is a house of cards and needs to be reigned in big time. Selling credit and trading risk is at the root of the problem here. This has nothing to do with jobs, productivity, and increasing the quality of life for workers.
Mortgages are nothing more than indentured servitude for decades to banks at rip off rates.
If they don’t cancel all derivatives and creative financial instruments, it’s only a matter of time before they will ask Uncle Sam for 100 trillion.
I think that all the people participating in the ponzi schemes as well as the enabling financial institutions need to be prosecuted under RICO statutes
and all their assets seized
and that includes BushCo, and Cheney & Company.
As Balzac said, behind every great fortune there is a crime.
Whose great fortune will be built on this crime?
Here is Naomi Klein and Amy Goodman chatting about Shock Doctrine. This may have been noted, but neo-con man Paulson has a case of industrial strength conflict of interest. He ran up tens of billions of dollars of debt at GS. He now wants to settle the GS debts, and the debts of Wall Street neo-cons, with trillions of dollars of taxpayer debt. This makes Henry one of the world’s biggest financial deadbeats.
But Henry may also have the record for highest pay to a government official. He got the tens of millions of dollars tax free from GS stock because he has sacrificed to become Secretary of Wall Street. He receives the “deferred compensation” from GS and who knows what other payoffs he is skimming.
Ian please answer this question…these securities are debt that the owners can call right. What happens to the USA government when the Chinese want the money that the face of the note says it is worth? We pay $700 billion and then are liable for the debt too? What happens to our collateral if the bank getting the bailout money fails or is taken over?
Must be the record for being EPU’d ( at #13) ;-)
The headline page of english Pravda has some interesting headlines, Seems Russia is $30 billions better off after arms deal. Also don’t miss (scroll down) the report of US debt burdens from this administration (there is one error, if $700 billions raises the debt ceiling to $11,315 Billions, the current debt is running $10,615 Billions not the $8,300 Billions reported (all figures translated from trillions to billions for your computing ease), it is so hard believing anything out of the DC these days). Many other good related stories headlined for your edification.
http://english.pravda.ru/topic/Venezuela-183/
Careful about what China wants, China gets
http://www.reuters.com/article.....3720080925
banks won’t sell to each other with this bill, that’s the problem and as I posted in another thread of yours ian, one of the problems with liquidity was the fact that there was a deal on the table, money disapeared waiting to see what this bill was
I cannot believe the democrats are allowing one of the men that caused the problem a hand in something he is clearly nt capable, a role in correcting the problem
paulson should be fired, period, he should NOT be given any kind of control over our money, he WILL abuse it.
I wouldn’t even be happy if we gave him 150 billion, we are talking about an election just over a month away
EVEN IF MCCAIN WINS we do NOT want THIS presiden’t aids getting more of our money
if mccain would do the same thing, THEN HE OWNS IT, I do not want him able to blame bush
this is just CRAZY, we are ONE MONTH from an election.
congress should be kicking this ball down the hall
Great analysis, Ian. You conclude:
This is now the Republican philosophy of governance:
Kick the can down the road.
Whether it be Iraq, capturing OBL, North Korean nukes,
health care reform or Big Sh*tpile.
helre’s the first thing we MUST look into when we get the full version;
does this bill create any law that the next adminstration will not be able to change IMMEDIATELY
does this bill contain provisions where the president gets to get in their as soon as he has control and change what is going on
if it does not, if we are locked into this deal, then we are madmen for allowing it
Since the big banks are pretending to be selling something of value;
maybe we can pretend to pay them for it.
Like the folks in the old USSR pretended to work when the government pretended to pay them for it (IIRC the joke)
Dems fall into another Republican trap..or should we say jump.
350 Billion until January well the economy had better not tank there had better not be any more banks, financial companies etc seeking help then otherwise Paulson has failed.
If Paulson is discredited then president Obama will be free to try something else.
Odds are a hedge fund or something big will meltdown between now and January. America blog is talking about European banks going under I bet those banks had bad American home loan debt.
I do not think the American banks old business model of selling home loan debt will ever get 1/2 as big as it was no matter how much debt the Treasury buys.
let me tell you what this bill does that is most frightening because it has already worked on obama
I believe it was norquist who proposed;
“the way to get “entitlement programs” dissolved is to create as much debt as possible”
bing, here we are, obama even said this bill will hurt other programs
HEY, OBAMA…investing in our infrastructure is a POSITIVE return NOT a negative return
but owning this kind of debt makes that kind of nonsense part of the discussion
here’s what will end this rediculous plan;
“this bill is payed by getting back the middle class assets given to the wealthy, we are returning to the 90 percent tax rate until this is payed”
bing, watch that money APPEAR OUT OF NOWHERE
that’s how we can make certain bush owns all these problems, by returning to the pre reagan tax codes until our infrastructure is rebuilt, our laborers are payed for their productivity, our health care payed, our education system restored
that’s how we get the bush adminsitration to own the new taxes, AND those new tax codes will not even be a tax increase, they will be lowering the taxes on the majority of people and as a whole
Do not forget Helicopter Ben The economy is strong crap came from the Fed and the Treasury.
ot sorta ’cause most are about McPalin & OBama
but here are Geiger’s Saturday Cartoons
ps, that would be 90 percent of the wealthy income not middle and lower income
something like a million dollars would reach that tax bracket
also, as we heard a senator say before, if a company is too big to fail and the government will be forced to bail them out, then it is too big to exist
think bank of america right now, they are TOO FRIGGING HUGE, if they fail we are in tons of trouble
they have to be broken up, period…things like that
and we have to get back to protectionisn, we cannot allow products sold in this country that come from economies that allow slave and child labor, those products must face tariff
companies that go overseas must face tariff as well
this is the only method of bringing back our economy, we have to start producing product again instead of relying on investments for our profit
Budget conspiracies aside, when has taking money from the poor and middle class and giving it to the rich very high upper class ever saved an economy even if that upper class were honest?..which we know they are not. In fact this upper class are criminals.
The GOP will say any attempt to pay for/tax this plan will cause business to leave so lets enact tariffs business that used to be American but have relocated elsewhere to avoid taxes will get taxed the most.
McCain said Ireland in the debate has lower taxes than America, Ireland has national healthcare they do not have a big army or fight lots of wars.
Is that what McCain wants because I am all for shrinking the army, not fighting wars, GETTING NATIONAL HEALTHCARE and paying less taxes.
Is there a provision forbidding any signing statements by the white house clown?
that’s a good plan however I prefer businesses that allow slave labor taxed the most and then american business that left taxed second most…usually they started doing business overseas becuase they can use slave labor and bring prices down
if their labor force does not have collective bargaining, tariff, if they allow school aged children to work, tariff, if they do not provide retirement, tariff, if they do not privide health care tariff, if they pour crap in the air, tariff
that’s the way to make our market competitive, it’s not to sink to their level, it’s to raise their level to ours
NO
this has been the latest installment…
Any news on the Wachovia mess? And how much sleep are you getting Ian?
Don’t know whether anyone can comment on Sheldon Whitehouse’s ‘morning business’ discussion of the next crisis to come down the pike . . . credit card debt. In assessing the current situation, he explained that he should have been on the radar; instead, we are forced to REACT rather than pre-empt with remedial intervention. He predicts that the credit card debt/debacle is ‘waiting in the wings’ and recommends pro-active steps NOW. Isn’t Bank of America the largest credit card company? Will this issue erupt before we change administrations?
that’s a slogan right there, I say we go with it
Tariffs make goods more expensive the GOP says and so does regulation.
But that is only short term long term China has been in the news how many times this year for poisonous food additives because Bush is antiregulation and the Chinese know that they can get away with it.
Just how many people have to die before Bush thinks that food deregulation is a bad idea?
I wonder how much America could save in medical costs if food was better regulated? Lots of people eat bad fast food and miss a day of work and it never gets reported to the government.
the beginning to my next email sent to our congress criters;
when has taking money from the poor and middle class and giving it to the rich very high upper class ever saved an economy
thanx for the great lead i4u2bi
This is a huge move in the direction of corporate fascism. Borporations now have intervenious transfusion directly from tax payer cofers. It is a big step toward fascism government welfare to Wall street
Hey I’m all for taxing slave labor, child labor, or just banning all products from countries that allow that completely.
of course tariffs make goods more expensive, that’s because they force companies into paying their own bills
and that’s the way the republcans have to be answered;
“the only time our tariff will make the good more expensive is those products that want to sell to our consumers but they don’t want to pay their own bills, tariffs force them into paying the bills
why do you want our consumers paying the bills of these companies?
if they pay their bills there will be no tariff, simple stuff mister republican, get on board”
their heads will explode
FDA warns on melamine-tainted instant coffee
http://www.americablog.com/200.....stant.html
In other words, run like hell to throw that stuff out. If the Bush-FDA is actually issuing a warning, it’s really bad because they never lift a finger even when the evidence is overwhelming. (They still insist the Bisphenol A (BPA) bottled originally produced by Nalgene and loved by backpackers - myself included - are OK to use despite health safety departments and studies around the world suggesting the opposite.)
Umm…is there any oversight or does Hanky Panky get this giant slush fund to play “King of Wall Street” with no strings attached? This is an abomination. He has way too many conflicts of interest to be the one administering any pile of our money.
McVain just told Stephie he’d vote for it - for whatever that’s worth.
the term slave labor is melodramatic, I mean they pay so little the family can’t put food on the table, retire, take vacation
the company is not paying the bills, that’s what I mean, no company should be allowed to produce product when they don’t pay enough wage that provides these obvious necesities
healthy food on the table
health care so we can fix our kids teeth, broken arm, cancer
retirement so we don’t work long past we’re productive
vacation so we remain productive
those are bills that have to be payed, if the company does not they are not paying their bills and they cannot sell their product here without a tariff
hopefully the tarifff will cost them more then paying their labor force and they pay their labor force rather then pay the tariff
this is the way protectionism is supposed to work
Anybody think this will happen (or, if it does, it will matter):
I think the banks are hoping to juice the market up temporarily then they plan to sell as much as they can build up cash reserves wait for the market to go down and then buy everything on pennies on the Dollar.
The problem is nobody wants their home loan debt and I don’t think the new home loan debt is selling either.
Credit cards which is also very profitable people are not paying them either after they lose their home.
Big corporate takeovers of companies by hedgefunds a great source of income well all that was financed by homeloan debt.
Just what parts of the banks business model is still working? I don’t see how they can get even 1/2 the profits they used to?
Just what is/was the banks business model?
as far as tariffs, don’t forget, most prices are determined by what people will pay not what the product costs
the supply and demand model doesn’t really exist, it’s really a demand only model
demand does go down but not only when there is an abundance of supply
for instance, nike shoes costs about a dollar to make, they get about 100 dollars even though there is an abundance of those shoes
supply doesn’t always lower prices, all that lowers prices is demand
our labor force cannot be competing with countries that allow companies to not pay their bills
Hank Paulson message to Wall Street
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yErhglOXIxM
I say the dems should be kicking this ball down the hall, givning paulson anything but a one month fix is giving him too much
let the next adminsitration, mccain or obama, own the solution, NOT this president
News like this keeps forcing me to buy Organic no matter how much food prices go up. Maybe we need a made in China label for food because this is getting ridiculous.
Did Bush tell China buy out Junk debt and you can sell us Real Junk Food?
Not yet on hereabouts. Did Snuffy first ask the all important 20 minutes of questions about why John McCain didn’t wear his flag pin at teh debate? And why he was 6″ taller? And why he didn’t look Barack in the eye?
Oh, and did he get enough rest at the condo overlooking the Capitol this weekend?
Sometimes I am wrong:)
Would wage slave be better?
This bill does nothing to solve the underlying problems of the “market”. Unless you change the culture and the rules (none at the moment) nothing will change. They will continue their crazy betting and risk dealing and flogging credit. It will be a waste of money which will end up in whose hands? The same theifs who stole it the first time.
He’s being economical with the truth. Ireland has very low or non-existent Corporation Taxes for some (not all) foreign investors. That tax regime is being brought into harmony with the rest of the EU. Investment in the Irish economy by foreigners contrary to what extreme right wing economists tried to claim there has not been a flight of foreign capital from Ireland as a result of tax increases. This is because Ireland due to the nature of its labour force is a better deal than most places. It remains to be seen whether we’ll face serious competition from the new Eastern European members of the EU - myself I doubt it.
As to personal taxation it is a lot higher than in the US - but Irish workers are:
1) Better educated.
2) A lot more productive.
So they can afford it.
In fact they are outproduced only by the Swedish labour force and that only in sectors where Ireland has never been strong such as heavy manufacturing.
Per the NYT link in the post:
No details I could find.
wage slave is a great term tcu!
Stephie did bring up that McSame didn’t look Obama in the eye. Don’t recall McSame’s answer, grinning and mumbling, mostly.
hmmm
from china…china is directing it’s banks not to trade here
coincidence?
probably not
Neocons will own us. We are as a nation further in debt than ever. Private and public debt is at it’s highest. The service/cost on our debts is staggering.
This “Loan/bailout” is more than the cost of the Iraq/Afghan wars. This is the money that would fund healthcare, repair infrastructure and build alternative enegy facilities. There will not be a financial future if we stay on Big Oil. There will not be a habitable climate on carbon based energy. This bailout takes us further down the road to many disasters.
Ian,
Thanks for all your posts. They have been cogent and clear. A hard task when writing about financial issues on bailouts and our economy…
Can you discuss with Jane, Christy, EW the possibility of coming up with some kind of “resource post” we can use to fax our reps and Obama’s office in order to push for some grassroots/netroots change on this?
I have pulled from your previous posts for letters. I have also used hugh’s list as a “quick facts” to fax list.
Even if it (tools for building a netroots voice on the bailout plan) is something that focuses on the two worst parts of the plan, it will allow us to give counter solutions/suggestions…
We need some citizenry constructive action on this other than protests and calling just to say “No!” to the bailout. We need an organized voice. There have been bits here and there on other blogs. I just have not seen coordinated efforts from the netroots like we did on FISA.
What all of this can do to our economy and the future of our nation is of great import on so many fronts. Especially of import is national security. This bailout will in the end, have the potential for further Constitutional violations of our rights should national security issues grow…It’s all tied together and if we do not formulate a clear stand, the bill you have analyzed above, will be it.
I don’t mean the coffee isn’t tainted, it seems quite a few people in china have become sick, I mean we would have never seen that warning if china didn’t kick bush in the balls
Brad Sherman (D-CA) on MSNBC saying that the only way Paulson doesn’t get the second half of the $700B is for Congress to override a presidential veto….
and Barney Frank is up on CSpan.
I’ll say up front there’s a lot I don’t understand about this financial mess and what I do know is strictly as a layman but this sure looks like a bad deal for the American taxpayer. An awful lot of borrowed money is being given to the people who are responsible for this mess and with minimal over sight. I’m sure supporters of this deal will say the opposite but my sense is this will be the train going farther of the track.
both Frank and Sherman going out of their way to describe this as “Bush’s Bill”.
On tee vee, Kritter Brad Sherman says Congress is giving Goldman Sachs the whole $700 billion “in unmarked bills”. Paulson will not be on the installment plan after all.
Interesting I think that there is a link between better education and productivity also the number of hours worked and the productivity of the hours worked. Graphs linking all three factors rise and fall would be interesting.
That tax regime is being brought into harmony with the rest of the EU. Investment in the Irish economy by foreigners contrary to what extreme right wing economists tried to claim there has not been a flight of foreign capital from Ireland as a result of tax increases.
My bold McCain is lying. I wonder if McCain’s comments hints that the Right i America is going to transform Ireland into their ideal land of no government irrespective of what ever the facts maybe?
The Left here points to Sweden and France allot as models so maybe the GOP wants a country of their own? I thought that flat tax former Soviet Republics were their dream?
According to Newt, the plan will be posted on the internet today at noon and be available for review and comment for 24 hours (implied this would be before the vote). So apparently Pelosi got that. Color me surprised. But will they pay any attention?
I’d phrase this differently. Either it fixes the problem, or it doesn’t. There is no such thing as a short-term “fix”. This plan very likely doesn’t fix the underlying fundamentals of the problem. And therefore it is a bad, very bad, course of action.
Furthermore (as if the plan itself wasn’t bad enough), this plan will now be branded a Democratic bailout (rightly so), and will create massive new conservative habitat in congress. And not just in the conservative ‘renegades’–but importantly, among the Blue Dogs, their related tribesmen. This bailout bill is massively unpopular with the public. They are totally angry about this. The conservatives will use that anger, and will use the huge expenditure to shoot down all domestic spending they can in the Obama administration.
So the plan won’t work economically imo, and it is also a horrible political move.
He grins and mumbles allot and really enjoys playing a bully a mean happy idiot.
in that case the extra money cannot be in the bill, it has to renegotiated when paulson runs out
I have noticed that obama has aged already, just running for president…this is a job where just applying makes you an old man
You HAVE that spot on…
Ian,
Great job, something about a one armed paper hanger.
I’m seeing this term increased moral hazard of not letting failure act as a corrective. It is a danger for future outcomes which are worse for not correctly letting the risk punish poor choices or actions.
Are we suffering the results of not understanding the risks that were posed when the republican ideology trumped country in the 2000 elections? Remember how it would tear the country apart if we suffered a prolonged fight in congress over the winner of that election? Are we better off now because we didn’t understand the risks of letting the loser claim the presidential mantle?
I would think the Iraq war, guns over butter , 911 and this economic meltdown wouldn’t have happened if we had understood the moral risks involved in letting GWB claim to have won the election.
it occurs to me;
the paulson plan was 3 pages long and said;
“give me a gazillion dollars, you can’t charge me with a crime if I steal it, you can’t watch me spend it, you can’t ask me or tell me how to spend it”
it was clearly intended to get a “no” from congress
it was raising the bar so the absurd is acceptable
this bill we have accepted is absurd and would not have been accepted if not for the first bill
According to Newt, the plan will be posted on the internet today at noon and be available for review and comment for 24 hours (implied this would be before the vote). So apparently Pelosi got that. Color me surprised. But will they pay any attention?
Ian, this is code for get the grassroot troops organized. My comment @ 60 is gaining import. Ask why Pelosi pushed for that.
sorry MayDaze, the quote icon did not kick in. That first statement at 76 is yours with my bold.
Irak was their dream and look how that turned out. And no I’m not even a little sympathetic about their plight as to Irak.
As to education - you’re right. I make no claims to being an economist. I did have to take economics (mostly macroeconomics) up to masters level but it wasn’t my first love by any stretch of the imagination.
However back to education one of my keenest memories was a seminar on industrial enticement. - Getting industrialists to invest in you. Listening to executives from the other European countries admitting that vis a vis tax incentives and so on the field was pretty well level and that Ireland’s success was a direct result of free universal education and free universal healthcare pretty well made up my mind for me. Nothing that’s happened since has changed it.
agrees…ian and all the economists have their hands full getting a look at this bill
WHY ONLY 24 HOURS?
that does not make any sense, even congress can’t figure this out by themselves in 24 hours, it’s gonna take “the power of the internet”
(yes, i just quoted cheney, sorry about that)
and why isn’t paulson being fired?
why isn’t anyone asking him why he thinks he should not be fired?
prolly just stopped coloring his hair
The original bill was designed to get the response we see today - a revision of unacceptable law into very poor law. Dems should have started from scratch, but seem unable to resist “refining” a bad bill.
off to see some friends, see all later, let’s get that plan viral so we can all have a say
24 hours is not enough time to first understand it and then stop our critters from voting on it
no, I see the hard lines in his face…he is aging already…tough job this president stuff
Yes Mc Shame mumbles under his breath and this is what he says
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1rZBmk0DYU
true that.
Would that the voting public grasped that concept and voted accordingly, instead of voting command voice or adorable.
Yes if we let it or we could say that we cannot afford not to have every car in America get 40 MPG anymore.
I think a good road can save you 3 MPG out of every 100 miles driven so lets rebuild the roads. Solar and Wind are FREE and clean plus with if the Chevy Volt is a plug in car cheaper electricity means less need for oil as we phase out the gas engine.. Nuclear power well one mistake and we lose how many states?
National Healthcare is a great idea my Grand Aunt was a maid in Chicago she caught TB I bet lots of Gold Coast homes today have maids some might have TB but today their is a cure.
Do the rich really want to keep denying the poor healthcare because when they do that they give germs a place to breed become antibiotic resistant and infect the servants who clean their homes, take care of their kids etc.
Can the rich keep on cutting their own nose to spite their face?
it was clearly intended to get a “no” from congress
yep - it’s not unusual (for me anyway) to build a certain amount of garbage into a contract or settlement offer as flat-out red-herrings, which I’d then “give up” later in negotiation, being, ya know, a ‘nice guy’ about it all.
This bill was *all* red herrings, and apparently there has been no one in the room smart enough to figure it out. They busted Paulson on the most egregious one (no accountability) and pretty much agreed to everything else.
So many lawyers in Congress - wish they’d show up in courts where *I’m* working…..
Or at a poker table where I’m playing…..
That tax regime is being brought into harmony with the rest of the EU. Investment in the Irish economy by foreigners contrary to what extreme right wing economists tried to claim there has not been a flight of foreign capital from Ireland as a result of tax increases.
My comment at 67 the above should have been in quotes
heh - Barney Frank saying that McLame did nothing but cause delay.
Compares swoop-in Johnny to Andy Kaufman’s stand-up routine, where he’d sing the Mighty Mouse “Here I Come to Save the Day”.
lol.
I think B of A is in trouble on credit card debt. I have a credit card with B of A and two times now they have reduced the credit line to just above the balance…and that is on an account that has been open for twenty or more years with not one late payment. Of course their action destroys a credit score and they know it. They refuse to respond to written requests. I suspect they have taken these actions with millions of customers knowing the credit card business is either blowing up or about to.
NTW I think everyone understood the implicit quotoation marks :-)
All:
REasonably good article from Reuters here - Buffett’s “time bomb” goes off on Wall Street and I am going to link again to this Potentially more toxic than sub-prime: the £6.6bn of ‘Alt-A’ that spooked HBOS investors as I am of the opinion that there’s more and worse down the road.
Ireland’s success was a direct result of free universal education and free universal healthcare pretty well made up my mind for me. Nothing that’s happened since has changed it.
That seems like a very interesting lecture. Chicago School Economics which I grew up with and did not pay much attention to however I’m sure you already know from Iraq.
Most of my ideas on economics are a rebellion against the GOP ideas I grew up with in Reagan’s America.
The largest burglary by an American president/vp and Wall Street is about to happen. Assholes.
Yeah Ian the Lake and the other blogs should be calling for a call in to Congress on every post! I don’t see a Lefty Blog out there that thinks this plan is good.
I hesitate commenting since I’m so far out of my league on this bail-out, but the above quote is what’s bothering me. We’ve been scammed so many times that I don’t know what to believe anymore. Guilliani and countless others are lining up to get on this gravy train. And we pay for it.
Looks like another Bush success to me.
McCain on Snuffy’s show [still no flag pin–oh, the outrage]…every-tax cuts-other-taxcuts-word-taxcuts….
Contact Nancy Pelosi:
http://www.speaker.gov/contact/
Contact John Boner:
http://clerk.house.gov/member_.....atdis=OH08
Real good observation Bank of America is buying all these banks but if they are having problems well this could sink us.
Welcome to the corporate state. Mussolini would be so proud.