Taking on the System: Rules for Radical Change in a Digital Era, by Markos Moulitsas Zuniga (2008, Celebra), purposefully and transparently is a 21st century update of Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals: A Pragmatic Primer for Realistic Radicals (1971, Random House).
Where Alinsky summarized community organizing techniques in phrases quick enough to fit on a bumper sticker (“Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules,” and, “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon”), so does Moulitsas (“Bypass the gatekeepers,” “Raise an army,” “Target your villain,” “Craft your hero,” et cetera).
Moulitsas’ distaste for those he calls “gatekeepers” is what got him into the battle, and founding the Daily Kos website:
I started the site for a simple reason – I felt ill-served by the undemocratic gatekeeping mentality so prevalent in our society. And, at that time, we seemed to be on an inexorable march toward war with no avenue for dissent. There was an assumption by the powers that be that the rest of the citizen body couldn’t think for ourselves. That we needed self-appointed and so-called experts to tell us what to think, what to do, and what we should – or should not – know. For far too long, these gatekeepers controlled the national conversation.
Kos expands his anti-gatekeeper view of politics to other key sectors of society: the media, the music industry, and Hollywood among them. Don’t presume that this is a book about Democratic Party politics: it is only marginally so. It’s about organizing in any and every field where creative individuals and communities must learn to bypass or to crush the self-appointed wardens.
In the past month, since the Republican nomination of Alaska Governor Sarah Palin, Moulitsas’ “rules” have been put in play in such a way as to sink her overall favorability ratings and stick them down below, and increasingly so, her rising negative ratings. Essays from Taking on the System’s“Set The Narrative” section, like “Target Your Villain,” “Exploit Their Weaknesses,” “Aim for the Gut, Not the Brain,” got a very fast test drive within days after the August 20 release of this book, demonstrating in real time how Kos’ “new rules” work to change political outcomes.
Related posts:
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes David Kessler, The End of Overeating: Taking Control of the Insatiable American Appetite
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes David Swanson, Daybreak: Undoing the Imperial Presidency and Forming a More Perfect Union
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes William Greider, Come Home America
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Matthew Kerbel, Netroots: Online Progressives and the Transformation of American Politics
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Chris Mooney, Unscientific America
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Markos, Welcome to the Lake.
Al, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
Good afternoon everybody and welcome Markos.
Hey guys, hello everyone.
Let’s get right into it. Your book, Taking on the System, came out on August 20. Chapter three, “Set The Narrative,” begins:
“Effective leaders draw people into their cause by creating powerful stories, with clear distinctions between good and evil, hero and villain. Instead of bemoaning the fact that Americans love their entertainment culture, political activists need to borrow Hollywood’s proven methods to structure gripping narratives and compelling communications strategies. Making politics and causes participatory, exciting, and fun is key to sustaining citizen involvement.”
Nine days later, Governor Palin was nominated for vice president. The GOP tried to craft one heroic “good vs. evil” narrative sympathetic to her. What has happened in the past four weeks to change that narrative? And how can this case be used as a teaching tool about “setting the narrative”?
Welcome, Markos!
I’ve just gotten the book myself, and the very first thing that hit me was the absence of notes, citations, URLs, or any kind of sourcing on the quotes you cite. Given the ubiquitousness of links at DKos, this really caught me by surprise. Any explanation?
As I write in Taking on the System, any activist campaign has to be told as a story, and the best of them have strong heroes and memorable villains.
As soon as Palin was named, it was clear that Republicans set out to craft her into a hero — the folksy mooseburger-eating common-sense hockey mom. People loved it. She was wildly popular, and as a result, she provided a boost to the entire McCain ticket.
It was our job to knock her back down, to turn her into a villain, and we all know how we did that and how her plummeting popularity has become a liability to the McCain ticket. So much so, in fact, that they’ve been forced to hider her from the press lest they ask her tough questions — questions that were, in large part, born in blogs and comment boards across the progressive netroots.
Hi Markos, Hi Al. Thanks for this very useful book, and for your excellent introduction Al. “Fighting up” versus “fighting down” was very exciting to read about. Can you talk a little about how your website has succeeded in this regard, even as DailyKos has become one of the big boys?
Peter, ever fact I use is cited in the text of the book. So I’ll say things like, “According to So-and-so in the October 2005 edition of the New Republica, blah blah blah.” It makes for a cleaner book.
This isn’t a scholarly work or a polemic. It’s a practical guide in being an effective activist. It’s a tactical book rather than a reference one.
What arguments (stories, facts, memes, ideas) do you think cut the deepest to “knock her back down”?
And, although in hindsight it can seem like it was easy to do, wasn’t it a bit precarious there for a spell?
markos – love you. but it’s been a long time since i could get you to personally answer a comment of mine (dkos uid = 780), so i’m going to take my chances here while i can:
is your vision one where the gatekeepers are exchanged for new gate keepers or one where the gates really are opened to promote transparency?
and thank goodness for that because with power there WILL be corruption, we here at the lake for the most part are NOT democrats, we are progressives
if a democratic politician begins to do what the republicans are doing, we WILL do our best to get them removed from their seat in power just as we do with republicans
we have become the keepers of the gate ourselves, the gate of toward social progress
democrats need worry, they BETTER not become the corporate tools as the republicans, will do the same to them, they will be in power for a very short time
Teddy –
The best example of fighting up versus punching down is Keith Olbermann, who probably has built half his audience just from poking and eliciting reactions from Bill O’Reilly.
Daily Kos was a nothing site 5-6 years ago. But for some reason, it drove the crazies insane. And the more they cited it, the more they telegraphed the message that “this is a site to be taken seriously”. The breakout moment for Daily Kos was when I wrote that “screw them” comment about the four mercenaries killed in Fallujah. The Right wing freaked out, and so did I. But then I noticed that the attacks didn’t really affect the things that were important to me — my family, my readers, my friends — and in fact, by creating that collective and VERY loud freakout, it sent notice to the traditional media that this guy “kos” was “making waves” and was a force to be reckoned with.
I agree that it’s a tactical book, but it is well enough written that I found myself wanting to dig further into what some of the people you mention have to say. Even a “for further reading” section at the end would have been a great help.
Maybe for your next book . . .
Thanks!
Selise –
There will always be gatekeepers. FDL, Daily Kos, whatever are all “gatekeepers”. The difference is that now, it isn’t just the elite manning the gates. And in a more meritocratic web, anyone can be a gatekeeper. So it’s a democratization of the gatekeeping process.
Markos,
If Couric can knock down Palin with out really even trying, ie. her interviw of Palin, then Sarah is doomed. And it should put a big drag on McCain.
Hello, Markos!
Speaking of being taken seriously, does it bother you that Matt Drudge, who is such an obvious injector of RNC talking points into the MSM’s bloodstream, still rocks their world and still has more “prestige” than someone like you, who has been right about lots more than Drudge has been?
I would like to point out, neither are we extremists, we happen to be the majority, what we believe is what the vast majority believes, we here at the lake happen to be more informed then the average person, we aren’t as easily convinced by propaganda
we find the facts, form our course of action around the facts, we do not find our facts formed around the desire for a particular course of action
and there is the real differance between progressives and partycrats
Al:
First it was exposing her record, her mayoralship of a meth-infested village, the Alaska Independence Party stuff, Troopergate, the book banning stuff, the family disfunction, but ultimately, it was parsing her words and records and building the narrative of her being small time and WAY over her head.
Now that we have that narrative built, we can slot everything into it and reinforce the narrative — her lies, her fear of public scrutiny, and so on.
And it wasn’t precarious. There were two options: 1) we let the other side solidify their narrative, that she was pretty and folksy and had reams of common sense and have her be this popular force, or 2) go on the attack and knock her down.
Republicans know to attack our strengths, like the swiftboating of Kerry. We, on the other hand, are afraid to do so. People said we should avoid attacking Palin because she was popular and there would be a backlash. Well, that would’ve ceded an important advantage to them. That was never an option, not if you want to win.
I don’t think Drudge challenges the MSM, the Daily Kos does that and more.
Peter:
I wrote the book in two months, so yeah, that was something that would’ve been great to add, but the deadlines were insane, I was writing during the early primaries, and so that wasn’t an option. I was hoping to do an online “annex”, and may do so for next year’s paperback edition, but this year has been crazy enough! But great point nonethteless.
Kos:
But I don’t think you’re recommending that at the October 2 debate, Joe Biden go ballistic to reinforce that narrative, at least not frontally. Or are you?
no markos, anyone can’t be a gatekeeper. among the local activists in my community, many of them live without computers – they have to go to the public library to read their email. what you describe is still an elite – just a different kind of elite.
that is why i asked the question, because while we may always have an elite, i don’t like it when they act as gatekeepers for information. you, among all the original bloggers i read in 2002 have probably done more than anyone i’m aware of to help open the gates for others… so, i’m hoping that you are at least a bit receptive to my message:
you are now one of the elite. imo, you deserve it. but please don’t pretend it isn’t so and please do what you can to remind yourself to keep the gates of information open to your readers and to all. thanks.
I think there might have been this thought in the GOP that no one would have the nerve to go after Palin because they’d be labeled sexist. I think what has happened is that as more light has been shown on Palin, that argument has just evaporated. The thought that somehow she would attract the Hillaryistas was just a joke; they are insulted by the idea that somehow Palin is equal to Hillary Clinton.
Kos, I’m working with a group that’s trying to acquire a radio station for progressive talk radio in the Boston area. It’s been more difficult a struggle to attract investors from the business and political communities than we anticipated. One would think that Democrats would be all for talk radio, seeing that it was fundamental in the Republican seizure of Congress in 1994, and that radio remains the only freely accessible real-time way to reach people in their cars. One would think that business people would be interested as well, seeing that the market is saturated with right-wing clones and that the Democrats and progressives are on the ascent. What do you think about progressive talk radio, and why do you think it’s so difficult to attract investors for progressive for-profit enterprises? What do you think are the best ways for progressive businesspeople and investors to find each other?
Markos,
With so many GREAT books being published by progressive activists lately, haven’t had time for yours yet, but I think our Alaska bloggers may be providing you material for your next one.
We’ve been the go-to sources for MSM reporters from Outside of Alaska, once the word got out the first week in September that the Alaska MSM reporters weren’t able to provide them important information on:
1) Palin’s shortcomings as Wasilla mayor
2) a viable, factual narrative on women’s issues
3) a long, fact-packed look at Palin’s anti-science stances over the years
4) contacts in the militia, white power and millenialist community on Palin’s religious/zealot roots
5) contacts, contacts and more contacts with people around Alaska who have kept track of the facts on the “real” Sarah Palin.
Just as importantly, our activist blogging community has made important internal political contacts, and we’ve networked very well since August 29th with lower 48 progressives and liberal activists.
Couldn’t have played out this way, without all the help you’ve inspired over the past five years.
Phoenix Woman:
It bothers me more that Drudge has never invested a dime in his ugly-ass site!
I think Drudge is a major force, but he was nearly uncontested a few years ago. Today, he’s got a lot of competition from a lot more people. I mean you have Nate Silver, who came on the scene just months ago, able to help shape the analysis of polling in an incredible way. I can do our own polling to PROVE that Palin is falling, and not just spout crap from the top of our heads and hope it sticks in the broader media.
A few years ago, Drudge could’ve just written shit about how great and wonderful Palin was, and the press would’ve lapped it up and regurgitated it back. Today, he can write anything he wants about Palin, but if my polling and Nate’s analysis points to the fact that she ISN’T that popular after all, Drudge won’t get any traction.
One of the most frustrating things about our political discourse, to me, is the lack of accountability for narrative themes. Can you imagine Bill O’Reilly’s outrage if Barack Obama had a daughter who was pregnant out of wedlock? Can you imagine Wolf Blitzer’s scorn if Barack Obama had stumbled pronouncing Ahmadinejad’s name last night? Can you imagine Mary Landrieu still being in office if she’d patronized male hookers who claimed she had a diaper fetish?
It is extraordinary to me how sins of the right are so easily forgiven by those who construct our media narratives, while supposed transgressions on the left are cause for driving people from public life, like John Edwards has been.
Do you think more meritocratically selected gatekeepers will radically change this, or will we always play on a tilted field?
Welcome Markos. I like cleaner books. No need to question stuff, it’s cited, so people can jump to the chase.
I like your take on things.
I go by the go with the basics and what works in terms of communication and relationships.
Regarding Gatekeepers, I try to use the guideline of People Will Treat You The Way You Allow Them. Thus the need to take control of any relationship.
I also like to see things in terms of patterns of behaviour and watching how things work determined by what else is going on, so I try to encourage putting things into context.
I admire what you are doing. And, I’m so glad you are young enough to keep this campaign for truth going for a long while. :)
Hi Markos, do you have any insight as to how Olberman(and now Rachael) was able to break through some of the filters and is able to to get out what he does?
Al:
There’s a section in Taking on the System about “knowing your role”. Obama and Biden needed to steer clear of Palin and let people like us do the dirty work of bringing Palin down. Their role is to build themselves up as heroes, as defenders of the middle class and hope for the future. It’s our jobs to drag the opposition down into the muck. The Right has done this for year. They’ll leak shit to Drudge or O’Reilly or Limbaugh to smear Dems, while they sit at the top and express their “concern” at how negative the process has become.
So Biden doesn’t need to go ballistic on Palin. In fact, that would backfire disastrously by generating sympathy for her. Rather, he needs to show that HE’S competent and let Palin be Palin. I doubt it’ll look pretty for her.
I wonder if that attitude might explain why the first right-wingers we’ve heard calling for her to remove herself from the ticket are both women — Parker and K-Lo.
Selise:
You have a narrow definition of “gatekeeper”. It isn’t “she who has a website”. In the activist world, a gatekeeper is anyone who acts as a clearinghouse for information, or can initiate a campaign. On my block, we are starting to organize for some much-needed infrastructure improvements, and we have the one guy who is managing the effort, setting up our email list, getting in touch with our councilmember, reading up on the city code, and so on. He’s now the gatekeeper for our little community effort.
Anyone can be a gatekeeper. It just means taking charge and leading.
ding, ding, ding..we have a winnah!!! It has to be women. Palin is a complete embarrassment. These women are from the “have to be twice as smart, work twice as hard, etc.” school. These women appreciate that. To have this small minded, stupid, ill informed, female being waved around in front of them is insulting.
I have a question. We know that Ted Kennedy is a hero to liberals(for his Senate work obviously). He was lucky because he had his family name. We see how fast the wingers fall in love with people like Palin. Why aren’t there institutions(or whatever) that help build up people like Russ Feingold(or a Tammy Baldwin .. or Steve Cohen)? Is it because of corporate money?
AlanF:
Like any other business venture you have to prove that 1) there’s a market, and 2) that you are the guys to pull it off. Do you have an online version of your show that you can use to show off the proof of concept? Anyone can broadcast online. And do you have people on your team that have a track record of running radio stations successfully?
I just landed major financing for my Sportsblogs company, but it took a long time to build investor confidence that my team could pull off our strategy. It took years, and the launching of 150 blogs, and dominating several markets, before we could successfully make the case. And that’s in sports, which is a multi-billion dollar category.
I haven’t read your book yet, but I think all the progressive blogs have been successful in changing the opinions of the voters. Americans have turned against the repubs. Mission Accomplished. But, will the election be stolen again? The repubs can’t win honestly but they can do their damnedest to steal it.
Does anyone think that there’s a realistic chance of Palin being removed? It would be fascinating to see.
EdwardTeller:
No doubt. Look, I said Obama would be the first black president in the summer of 2004. I’ve been raving about Gov. Schweitzer for four years. Why? Because I follow the Illinois state legislature and the ranks of Montana ranchers? Not really.
It’s because this medium allows me to connect with activists on the ground all over the country, and they feed me info on the great rising leaders as they emerge. Sure, it makes me look prescient and like a genius, but my big revelation was to realize that locals knew best, and to listen to them.
If only the national media would learn a lesson from that, they’d be much better.
Moving onto a new topic…
Yesterday I interviewed Governor Kaine here in Virginia, and he mentioned, “I check in with the Daily Kos and some other blogs at least once a day to hear the water-cooler conversations. As governor, if I go to a water cooler, everybody stops talking. On the blogs, I can listen without anybody knowing I’m there.”
Do you think that level of attentiveness to Netroots blogs on the part of a major Democratic office holder is typical of a small number of them or large number of them?
That was also quite true of Donna Edwards in her special election victory against Al Wynn. And I see some others this year – like Joe Garcia and Larry LaRocca – utilizing other people’s blogs and social networking groups to promote their campaigns very heavily.
Have you drawn any conclusions or examples that would suggest those that do pay attention are having more success electorally?
we mean different things by the term “gatekeeper” then. to me gatekeeper is some who has access to information but instead of making it widely available, uses it selectively to further their own more narrow goals.
anyway, thanks for answers my question. best of luck with the book and keep giving ‘em hell.
p.s. to al giordano – i’ve been a fan of yours ever since matt accused you have having “problems with authority.” hope that’s still the case.
Having read Alinsky’s book when it first came out – and having plenty of loud discussions about it with my radical compatriots at the time – I was worried when I first learned you were writing your book, Markos, especially given our differences over the role of protest. Privately, I thought, how dare he put “radical” in the title.
As I found in reading it, however, you’ve lived up to Alinsky and then some. And have given me much to think about as I try to decide where and how a sixtysomething radical of the 20th Century fits in a 21st Century movement for the profound change we need. So, you’ve proved, for me at least, that an old dog can learn new tricks.
Of course, we don’t always agree. Sometimes, vociferously so. I doubt that will ever change. Thanks for this book. It’s on the shelf right next to my battered Alinsky. (Keeping all one’s books – despite how much housemates and spouses may complain over the years – has its benefits.)
Teddy Partridge:
Yes, absolutely. I HAVE to believe this or I will collapse into a puddle of tears. And Taking on the System is a call to arms for people who feel disenfranchised and like they don’t have a voice. As we get more great, wonderful people taking an active role in their democracy, their media, and their culture, I can only believe that things will dramatically improve.
I think it’s already happening, as YouTube and the social nets allow greater talent in music and cinema/video to emerge without going through the normal gatekeepers in Hollywood and the record labels.
What efforts do you make to encourage folks at DailyKos to go out on their own? If we’re to have a complex set of independent institutions that backstop and reinforce one another’s themes and narratives, it’s important that not all of us diary in the same place. For a while, it seemed like folks were breaking away from their “blogfathers” with lots of support and cross-linking. Does that still happen, or are their competitive aspects that undercut that support?
Welcome, Markos, and congrats on another great book!
1970cs
Olbermann was a great talent in broadcasting, being hugely successful on ESPN. Early on in MSNBC, his shows was doing okay, but I don’t think people realized he was as much of a progressive (or at least anti-establishmentarian) as he turned out to be. But the more progressive he became, the better the ratings, and when he started doing his special notes, his numbers exploded.
Rachel came up through Air America (which didn’t exist a few years ago), and eventually became a commentator on the network as MSNBC tried to “balance” out its panels. Well, she kicked ass, and bloggers on this site and mine and many others agitated for MSNBC to give her her own show. Keith proved that progressive TV could be financially lucrative, so they finally started her show, and again, the numbers have been ridiculously good (beating Larry King? Wow!)
So Keith broke the mold, almost in stealth mode, but now the format is proven. It’ll be easier for the next generation of progressive voices.
Yup. The fact that she’s not being sent out on surrogate duty is telling. Last night, Joe Biden was all over the TV screen working for Obama. Palin was nowhere to be found. In fact, the McCain camp brought Rudy Giuliani with them to Oxford in Palin’s stead!
Thanks, Selise.
The weirder the place, the more “local knowledge” counts. Alaska, being weird, even by Hunter Thompson standards, can be soo disorienting for reporters from LA, DC or NYC coming up here, that unless they make contacts here before even making the journey, they’ll be about to head home before they catch on…
And, one of the things about making local grassroots contacts, is that they all have more contacts.
One interesting thing about the development of the Palin narrative in AK, has been that people who were afraid to come forward initially (fear of retribution), are now coming out. I think this has been mostly due to the size and audacity of the women’s rally two weeks ago in Anchorage.
BTW, in 15 minutes, another huge rally, probably destined to be the largest political rally in Anchorage history, will tak place at the downtown Anchorage park strip.
I’d be there, with my wife, but we’re getting the house ready for a fundraiser for state house and senate candidates, to happen later this afternoon.
Markos —- Beat this drum about last night :
Obama: Flag pin. McCain: No.
I haven’t read the book but I still haven’t heard or seen ANYONE address the fact that the number of Representatives is the same as it was in 1941 yet the populace has increased 2 1/2 times since then AND a President -per a Supreme Court ruling- can tell the House to add more rep’s. Failure to do such is what makes a mockery of the idea that the U.S. is a ‘representative Republic(which people like to call a democracy).
What’s your take Markos given that technology obviously allows for greater communication and building skills are higher than in 1941?
Nelson Algren:
They’ve got their dynasties. Like Bush. Its a huge advantage, and will be for a while. Our job is to give the less advantaged of us a better shot at success. Steve Cohen had A LOT of progressive operations getting his back during this last primary against an EMILY’S List-backed anti-semite. He won, despite being a white Jew in a majority black district. We have the Donna Edwards example. And heck, Barack Obama defeated the vaunted Clinton establishment machine on the back of a small dollar revolution. We are much better prepared to support the next generation of great progressive leaders than we were even four years ago.
Markos, Will you be going on tour? On Colbert’s show? The last time you were on was a classic.
Hi Markos. Haven’t bought the book yet but it is on my wish list. I do have Crashing the Gate though. Good to see you at the lake.
This is probably and odd question, sorry if it is. But given my impression of you as a digital trailblazer, I was wondering how you decided to come out with your book in paper, as opposed a purely online book.
Thanks. I’m a fan of kos and the Field.
Al:
I think it’s still probably a small number of elected officials, but I suspect the vast majority of communications directors and staffers check in with the blogs. For example, I know Reid’s staff prepares a daily briefing of news clips in issues of interest to his office, and that briefing now includes blogs. So while I doubt Reid checks in, I know his staffers are culling the best of our stuff (and not just from the big sites like FDL and Daily Kos) to pass on to the decision makers.
Not yet. It’s still early. I think some have been SO effective with the netroots that it does provide a boost, like Darcy Burner or, hey, even Barack Obama.
But I’m also not a blog triumphalist who thinks we rule the world and it should bow at our feet. We’re a tiny slice of the netroots, which is a tiny slice of the progressive movement, which is a tiny slice of the Democratic Party, which is a tiny slice of America. I know our limits, and while we can be a factor (”Macaca” is a good example of that), I don’t think we make or break campaigns.
And just a quick reminder, Taking on the System isn’t a book about blogs or even necessarily politics. It’s a book about how technology (including cell phones and the rise of ethnic media) is empowering regular people to become active players in the world around them.
We’ve had successes, some: Cohen, Edwards. But our pushback on illegal wiretapping changed nothing: Bush got the powers he wanted and immunity for his pals. The war rages on, and there are more troops on the ground than when Democrats took the House. Alito and Roberts will sit on the Supreme Court for decades. Blue Dogs and Bush Dogs continue to sit in the power seat in Congress, with leaders like Steny Hoyer and Rahm Emanuel ready to construct November narratives about our successes to flatter themselves and their electoral genius.
People will need to see victories soon; more Democrats aren’t the answer, better Democrats are. Do you see 2010 as a watershed for primary challenges to establishment Democrats?
Markos, I haven’t a lot to add to what’s already been said, but I wanted to compliment you for the quality of writing in Taking On The System. It’s really very well done — clear and concise and compelling. I picked it up thinking I would thumb through it and wound up reading the whole thing from start to end. And when I was done, I felt both better informed and a little more inspired. Thanks.
“Anyone can be a gatekeeper. It just means taking charge and leading.”
For an example of this, check out this story of how the Obama HQ in Mobile, Alabama came to be. Donated office space, donated labor, donated everything — and working to get at the voters in the Florida panhandle! Simply holding McCain’s numbers down in the panhandle will help tip the state into the Obama column, as well as help with the downticket races.
Markos,
Thank you for joining us here this afternoon.
My question: Do you think it is helpful to the cause (progressive politics AND the Democratic Party) when the supposed leaders in DC or where ever come down and mandate that one candidate is superior to another because of an ability to self-fund or because the scorned candidate may be offering a more progressive and less deferential attitude towards the corporations?
Many of us have seen good progressives pushed out for this reason, leaving us to support either Republican lite or something worse. How do we stop this from happening?
Teddy:
I was worried the last couple of years that the number of new voices emerging in the blogosphere was slowing. But this year has yielded a bumper crop, with the likes of Nate Silver and Jed Report coming seemingly out of nowhere, and with long-time activist Al Giordano finding a brand new niche. Heck, I’m even impressed that the Clinton crowd, feeling marginalized (rightly or wrongly) were able to build their own little corner of the blogosphere. I respect that. Rather than whine about being shut out, build the institutions and then try to rally popular support for your cause.
And I still don’t see this as a competitive environment. I do with my sportsblogging endeavour. But the netroots, to me, is a collaborative environment and we are stronger the more other sites grow. I want more sites as big as Daily Kos around so that the pressure isn’t all on me. That’s why I like the HuffPo.
But I’m most excited when new voices emerge and when people suddenly feel empowered, whether it’s at their own sites, on a Daily Kos diary, or on a comment on FDL. It doesn’t matter. Each individual we empower is one more crucial voice fighting for change.
Markos,
I saw earlier on you said that in your experiences “locals knew best” and that you listened to them. Here in New York, I can say that The Albany Project has grown as a top state blog and has quite a reputation statewide.
How do you see progressive movements in states that have prominent state blogs performing and how do you see state blogs playing a role, not only in this election, but in elections and campaigns in the future? Right now, I would say we have some level of influence, but not nearly the kind of influence some of the national blogs (like yours) enjoys.
I don’t have the book – yet. But it’s on my wish list and I will be getting ASAP.
Thanks Markos.
ubetchaiam — the size of the House is an issue, but right now, in a time of war and economic disaster, it’s not going to be on anyone’s to-do list.
It’s so nice to have two true Sons of Alinsky here. For a long time I was worried, as Alinsky himself had foreseen, that the only people who would effectively act on his writings were the right-wingers. (Look at the modern conservative single-issue movements pioneered by Ralph Reed: It’s obvious, to me at least, that Reed studied Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals with the utmost care.)
hjay
Not so odd. I get asked that a lot.
Really, everything I normally write sort of exists in the ether. It’s nice to write something with a little more permeance. It feels more solid. And so it encourages a different kind of thinking than what I normally engage with online.
Kos:
One of the phenomena we saw last year was “Camp Obama,” two- or three-day training sessions in organizing for thousands of folks that then went and organized in primaries and caucuses, expanded this year with Obama Fellows and now “deputies,” and as I travel across this swing state I’m finding those people permeated throughout the campaign.
Have you similarly thought about a “Camp Kos” (for lack of an alternative title on my part) training session or sessions for bloggers and other kinds of communicators and change makers?
(Something that would be different from, say, Netroots Nation, as it would be smaller groups, more tactics and strategy oriented, not so infused with policy stuff.) I’m guessing there would be such a high demand for it that you could take applications and pick those participants that you think have the most potential to sharpen their skills and have more effect…
dakine01:
We fight in primaries. I HATE when candidates quit a race whining that DC is supporting their opponent. The party establishment supported primary opponents to Jim Webb (which I discuss in the book at length) and Jon Tester in Montana. They didn’t wither and quit. They fought back. And we had their backs.
And they won their primaries, then won their general elections. If you can’t take the heat in a primary against a DC-backed candidate, how the hell are you going to survive a general election against a Republican?
In fact, I prefer to go up against establishment-backed candidates. There’s no better way to prove their mettle in political combat.
Building on this:
Have you been contacted by international bloggers in how to take our form of political blogging / gatekeeping into their world?
robertharding:
It’ll increase. I think Virginia blogs are very much an integral part of their state’s political scene. To me, the question isn’t “will they become more influential?” They will. The question is “how can we make them financially viable”. That’s a much tougher question since advertising is based on volume, and by definition, a national blog will have a larger audience pool than a state one. I worry we’ll lose great state blogs for financial reasons.
Kos,
Just to give you a sense of the scale: when we talk about a progressive talk radio station, we’re not talking about a bunch of people in a basement. We’re talking about a real commercial station playing nationally syndicated shows by major progressive talk radio hosts, as well as a show by a local host who was nationally syndicated in the past. We gave a presentation on this subject at the Democratic National Convention in Denver with the active participation of Mike Dukakis and Jim Roosevelt (CEO of a health care company and grandson of FDR), as well as other former statewide office-holders. Our team does include one person who has managed a successful progressive talk radio station. And we commissioned a professional in the industry to write a business plan that demonstrates that stations in markets similar to ours have been successful when they’ve had a decent signal, as we intend to have.
You say that it’s taken you years to demonstrate your viability to investors from the commercial sports world. But you started Daily Kos long before that. I don’t know how Daily Kos is structured, but surely you know a thing or two about investments in the for-profit progressive world.
So my targeted question is whether you can think of ways to find investors that we might have been neglecting. We’ve tried identifying and approaching the top contributors to Democratic campaigns. But it seems that it’s hard for us to put our fingers on the people who understand the importance of progressive talk radio (as opposed to “balanced” public radio) and get through to them.
Any ideas you would have on this idea would be welcome, either here in this forum or in a separate e-mail to me at alanfordean AT yahoo.
Thank you very much.
Hey, Markos.
I’m interested in your response to last night’s debate. There’s been some discussion of whether Obama should have been more confrontational, or whether his relative cool made McCain’s bad behavior stand out more. I’d be interested to hear your thoughts.
How would you like to see future debates handled?
Al:
I had given some thought to a netroots training seminar, maybe two weeks or something, but the New Organizing Institute appears to be doing much of that and I have little interest in duplicating efforts. One thing I AM focusing more on is helping create a Media Training and Booking operation, that would train the next generation of progressive surrogates and help place them on TV.
As I write in Taking on the System, the reason you don’t see many progressive voices on TV isn’t necessarily ideological, it’s because conservatives like those at the Heritage Foundation make it easy for overworked and stressed out segment producers by providing ready-made and trained commentators for any issue being discussed on any given day.
Welcome Marcos.
You mentioned above that it’s the local guys are who you listen to. Well, please help us up here in Maine! I did a post on a rumor (either put out by the Maine GOP in the 1990’s to keep Mainers from questioning her sexuality or this isn’t a rumor but actually did happen) here in Maine about Sen. Susan Collins that has been here for years. As soon as I did this post, things exploded and within a week my computer was inoperable and then a week after that my hard drive failed. Anyways, even the guys at Turn Maine Blue are telling me it’s true (as have other Mainers via emails to me) and we would love some attention to this issue! It would destroy Sen. Susan Collins’ career once and for all.
I’ll email you the link to the post I did to see what you think.
James Fallows on the debate :
The least self-aware moment for John McCain in last night’s debate came at the half-way point, when he said, “I’m afraid Senator Obama doesn’t understand the difference between a tactic and a strategy.” ……….
For years and years, Democrats have wondered how their candidates could “win” the debates on logical points — that is, tactics — but lose the larger struggle because these seemed too aggressive, supercilious, cold-blooded, or whatever. To put it in tactical/strategic terms, Democrats have gotten used to winning battles and losing wars. Last night, the Democratic candidate showed a far keener grasp of this distinction than did the Republican who accused him of not understanding it.
http://jamesfallows.theatlanti…..actics.php
BevW:
I have, and I’m not very helpful to them. As I write in Taking on the System, every country (heck, every community) has different social norms and access to various technologies, so what I did effectively here isn’t going to be effective in, say, Ukraine. I write about the Orange Revolution, and with almost no internet access, opposition groups literally handed out cell phones to team leaders around the country. So the leadership texted out the latest news, and those team leaders then either shouted the news to their group, or printed out fliers to distribute the old-fashioned way. Those organizers worked to adapt tactics that suited the culture and technology availability of their own country.
Remember the immigration protests in this country a few years ago? Well, those were orchestrated in spanish-language media, while activists got the word out using cell phone messaging. There was almost zero online component.
One of the hallmarks of the modern successful activist is to realize that every situation calls for different tactics, and that no cookie-cutter approach will ever succeed. Heck, what made Daily Kos big back in 2002 would probably not work today, in 2008. Situations evolve, and tactics must evolve alongside them.
This is an excellent idea. I am so tired of seeing Bob Shrum and Donna Brazile and Harold Ford as Democratic spokespersons on television. I understand that a narrow range of views, in support of the corporatocracy, is encouraged by the powers-that-be. But if Olbermann/Maddow teach them anything, they should learn that there is an audience out here for other views.
We need some people on television from the Democratic wing of the Democratic party.
Julia:
The snap polling indicated that Obama was the overwhelming winner. This is a point I make very much in Taking on the System — stop trying to evaluate how effective something is by how it makes you feel, and evaluate it by the results. In this case, beating up on McCain may have made us all cheer, but would’ve probably been taken as poorly as McCain’s similar aggressive efforts were taken.
In the book, I make that point about street protests. The point isn’t whether they make you feel good because your are “doing something”, but whether they work toward change. If it’s the former, then it’s worthless.
So yeah, given the snap poll results, Obama did exactly what he needed to do.
That and, how about our own list of attractive, intelligent folks on a ready-to-go list? Jane, Christy, and isn’t there someone in the wings? ET — Phillip Munger?
AlanF:
Every industry has a specific kind of investor. I have no clue who would invest in a local radio station. I would imagine it would have to be local money. But beats me. Just understand that in this current economic climate, and with liberal talk radio being perceived as doing poorly (i.e. Air America’s bankruptcy), it’s not an easy sell. For me, and the sports stuff, it took finding a person with a strong track record of running digital companies to take over and give the investors confidence that we could execute on our plans.
As for Daily Kos, I’ve never taken a dime of investment, so really, my direct experience dealing with investors is next to none. Sorry.
demi:
Of course!
Kos:
Talk aloud please about what you see coming for Netroots and progressives after the election, after a possible Obama victory.
First, in the period between November 4 and January 20.
Second, in the period between January 20 and the 2010 Congressional primaries and elections.
In Chapter 7 of Taking on the System, you talk about “Pick Your Battles.” Somehow I think that’s going to be a huge challenge for a lot of folks.
Really, there are two kinds of people. Those that whine that no one is helping them out, and those that just go out and do shit. Taking on the System is for people who want to be actors, not spectators. It’s for those who want to take charge of their destiny, not wait for someone to hold their hands.
What mechanisms do you see being particularly effective in getting Obama to be the progressive president some of think he can be, and may even want to be, in the face of the howling noise that comes from the right?
and Brad from Bradblog?
So, we need a liberal blog group PR person, is that it?
I’m popping in and out, as we clean for today’s Democrat candidate fundraiser. We’ve been having so many lately that the house is staying so clean the dog feels uncomfortable inside….
Al:
You’re going to see every oppressed progressive group suddenly start jostling over whose agenda will be the most important to tackle. Meanwhile, Bush will be doing everything he can, via executive order or administrative decree, to gum up the works for the incoming administration. The lame duck Congress will hopefully be ignored in favor of the new-and-improved incoming one iwth large Democratic majorities.
And I’ll be taking a long-ass nap.
We’ll be fighting a multi-front war as conservative groups seek to tear down Democrats, and as corporatist DLC/Blue Dog-style Democrats ally with Republicans to stymie the best progressive reforms.
I’m actually really excited about laying the foundation for an assault on corporatist Democrats in the 2010 primary season. I’d love to target about a dozen seriously, with the goal of ousting 2-3. We do that, and they’re going to be a lot more scared of the voters than having one of their corporate lobbyist buddies not cut them a $5,000 check.
One more point — the GOP majority collapsed as quickly as it did because none of their rank and file kept their leaders honest. They backed Bush no matter how idiotic he was. They backed people like Lott and DeLay, no matter how corrupt they allowed their caucus (and themselves) to become.
We CAN’T let that happen on our side. We have to be equally tough on our side’s ethics as we have been with theirs. We have to hold them, and Obama, accountable lest we go down that path of defeat once again.
Ian used an FDR quote that I like in this context – “I agree with you-now go out and make me do it.”
That does raise the question of how you support a politician against a particularly nasty set of opponents while opposing him on issues where you want him to move.
What role can we play in that?
Teddy:
He has to have support from Congress. The more progressive the Congress, the more cover he’ll have. We also have to fight back against the inevitable Harry and Louise-style ads they’ll run to stymie Obama’s agenda. If Congress provides cover, and we can win the battle of national public opinion, then he’ll have room to move left. If we cede the battleground to Rush Limbaugh, then we’ll see a repeat of Bill Clinton’s tenure, triangulating away for cover.
NOR has it been for many years. And as a 62 year old, I tired of hearing every generation’s excuses for not addressing the BASIC ISSUE. Many nations less technological can address proper representation AND their voter turnout is always significantly higher than the U.S.’s (which has hovered around 55% since the 1920’s despite sufferage and lowering of the voting age to 18.)
All the gee whiz tech and blogging isn’t getting the BASICS of representation addressed.
Julia:
That kind of tactic depends on the politician, the kind of district he or she represents, and so on. But for starters, it has to be organic and come from within the district. And you have to have numbers.
As I write in Taking on the System, citing Daou’s Triangle, you enable change by either convincing the gatekeepers to take your position (in this case, the politician), or you build enough public pressure to force that gatekeeper to change.
And as I further write in my book, the way to build public pressure is through the media, whether it’s a letter to the editor, to a blog, to a Facebook Group, to a distribution email list, to getting the message out in the traditional media (TV, radio, and print).
ubetchaiam — so stop complaining about it and set out to build public support for your cause. And the way to build public support isn’t whining about it on message boards. You’ve got to craft a compelling narrative around your issue, then wield it to build public support. That’s stuff straight out of Taking on the System. Screaming “hey, look at my issue!” will never lead to effective change.
You want to see someone who *is* doing it the right way, and who touches on your issue? Larry Sabato.
Kos:
We’re now in the final quarter of this two-hour chat about Taking on the System.
What other principles/tactics/strategies of the book do you see at play at present and in the coming weeks?
Thanks for your answer about the paper-based book.
Here’s a question about philosophy. During this election time, which do you think is more important, critiquing Obama on national and congressional issues such as FISA, versus focusing on getting him elected? How do you think it it best to balance these factors?
Hi Kos,
Somebody (selise?) was hoping out loud that Rachel would hold a panel of progressive bloggers as a regular part of her new show. Have you heard anything about that possibility?
I have a section that argues we can’t bring a spork to a gunfight. Republicans will be increasingly desperate as they face electoral ruin at every level of government. They are going to dish the dirt something fierce. And while Obama and (to a lesser extent) Biden need to remain above it all, it’s imperative that we don’t fear fighting back in kind. We can’t let them swiftboat our candidates. We can’t be afraid to go where they are going.
There is nothing they won’t use against us. Remember how they embraced the NAtional Enquirer when that rag was writing about John Edwards’ affair? If that magazine ran a piece on Biden having an affair tomorrow, it would be all over everywhere. But last week, the Enquirer ran a piece on Palin having an extramarital affair, and there was media silence.
I’m not saying we should’ve ran with it. I didn’t since I have no interest in validating the Enquirer. But if that story was validated by the Washington Post or another credible outlet, we can’t be afraid to jump in, guns blazing. Our side generally is, because we (rightfully) believe that it’s none of our business. But we have to play the game the way they do, lest we see Obama’s current lead whittled away in a barrage of crap.
Kos, it seems you view the netroots like a low-level insurgency: a weak combative force that multiplies its effect and message as it echoes through the system. What are the counterinsurgency tactics you fear the most? What strategies do you think your opponents have to delegitimize you?
How important, and what concerted efforts are being taken, to enlarge the blogosphere, to diversify it beyond the traditional based of primarily middle class white folks? Or correct me on the current demographics.
It seems a truely democratic movement must have as an objective spreading this tool to communities where access or participation is now limited — which will take money, education, infrastructure and not a little sweat.
And if that is already starting to happen, how do you see it progressing and growing?. Not sure if I’m clear with my question, but I guess I’m really talking about de-niching the movement, sort of….
Loo Hoo,
No, but I hate being pigeonholed as a “blogger”. We are all writers and commentators, no matter our outlets (and many of us now have multiple distribution outlets for our work). No need to ghettoize us. If Rachel were to do something like that, I’d love it to be a representative sample of the best of the progressive grass- and netroots. And those people aren’t all bloggers. In fact, just a tiny portion of them would probably blog.
hjay:
I don’t think this is even remotely debatable. Once he’s elected, and he has the power to do shit (other than being one of 100), then we can lobby on FISA and whatnot. Because I guarantee you that McCain doesn’t give a shit about FISA.
I’d like to thank everybody that participated here (a shout out to one of my DKos heroes, Meteor Blades, too!), Beverly of FDL for facilitating this session to happen so smoothly, and, of course, Markos for giving us two hours of his time.
As an interviewer I always like to ask, while there’s still time:
Kos:
Is there anything else you were hoping to say today but perhaps did not get the chance to say it?
AlanF- Places like Boston may be saturated with radio stations, so obtaining a frequency may be next to impossible. And buying a radio station may be tens of millions. May I suggest another alternative. Get together with some of the local college or public stations and apply for a couple of hours a week of their publica affairs time as a volunteer. They will have some studios and equipment (with additional funds you could upgrade those facilities). Use the rest of the money for print or other advertising. Bring in other syndicated programs, like Amy Goodman.
Most college stations are desperate for people who want to improve their public affairs programming.
percyprune:
Great way of putting it. Really.
Believe it or not, I’m less afraid of counter-insurgency (other than maybe anti-net neutrality provisions or government regulation), than I am of seeing us get corrupted as the new “insiders”, thinking we’re “all that”. I have a section in the book titled “don’t believe the hype”, because good people self-destruct when they suddenly believe all the hype.
And there’s that old adage — the press builds you up so they can knock you down. Well, if you don’t buy into their “building up” crap, it’s much harder to knock down.
But really, the best way to destroy me would be to dry up my audience, since my “power” stems from the collective force of the Daily Kos community. And there’s little the enemy could do to dry up that audience. Only I can chase them away.
Markos, thank you for stopping by the Lake today and spending the afternoon discussing your book.
Al, Thank you for Hosting this great Book Salon.
Everyone, this is a great book, if you haven’t bought one yet, there is a link above.
Thanks all.
Thanks FDL, Al, Markos. Loved your answer to my question.
Al:
Thanks to everyone here right now, and everyone who reads this after the fact. We are moving toward a more progressive America because of our collective efforts. All of us talking to people around us are slowly moving this country toward a better future, and as someone with small children, that’s really important. Understand that it’s not a short-term process, that this will take our entire lifetimes, and that of our subsequent generations. It’s a never-ending battle. So think big, but proceed in bite-sized chunks.
Also, give my book a chance, and if it resonates and you find it valuable, pass it on to other people. Ask that your local libraries carry it. Get the word out.
I’d also like to thank Al for his early support for the book. It’s been humbling to hear the great things he’s said about it, given his long life as an on-the-ground activist. I like to fantasize about how Saul Alinsky would’ve greeted this book. I hope it would be like Al did.
And thanks to the awesome FDL crew not just for hosting me today, but for creating this kick-ass space in the netroots. With allies like these guys, how can we fail?
Thanks everyone :)
Coming late–
I am just SO pleased to see the link to Saul Alinsky! Gives me yet another reason to want to read the book.
I wonder if MarKOS has also read Paolo Freire? (He wrote Pedagogy of the Oppressed.) He is the Saul Alinksy of Latin America, except that Alinksy never served in a government, as Freire did for a few years under a reformer. But Freire also had to deal with governments far more oppressive and fascist than the Bush regime!
As we used to say in the Sixties, “Right arm!”
Bob in HI
Highly recommended; folks should buy this book. Support for our progressive authors is an important way to build our progressive infrastructure.
Thanks for this wonderful chat today, Markos, and thanks Al for your great intro and questions. And to Bev, of course, for all her hard work making Book Salon a success.
YES. EXACTLY. While I cannot abide the damage that the Heritage Foundation has done to our democracy, or how it set the pace for other peripheral organizations from its own spin-off (TownHall) to AEI to Cato Institute, it’s very hard to argue with their success and their ability to increase dispersion of their ideas. We need to look at creating a similar model on this side of the ideological spectrum or run the risk of being crowded out again as they begin to figure out how to co-opt the internet as they did broadcast media.
In re: the discussion here about elites and gatekeepers — I think it’s worth looking at this not from right-wing frames, but from more practical perspectives, like Gladwell’s Tipping Point. If we strip away the frame and who’s who based on economic power and move towards a model based on effectiveness, we need to look at these roles:
# Innovators
# Connectors
# Maven
# Salespeople
# Early adopters
# Early Majority
# Late Majority
# Laggards
These people aren’t necessarily made; sometimes they simply have natural abilities that the rest of us don’t have. Most of us must form a majority, but without critical mass we can’t make real change happen at a sustained level for any length of time. We all have a role to play here.
So who are the people that are our progressive innovators, connectors, mavens and salespeople? They often surface on their own, but we need to make a more conscious effort to help them if we’re going to be a more effective majority.
Kos is one of those folks who fluctuate between these four roles, depending on the situation (and thanks for that, Kos, since it takes a willingness to do so). Jane H. is another, but now we need similar folks to reach back and help the late majority and laggards move forward with us, will only happen if we can create a medium that reaches them where they are, or entices them to leave their comfort zones.
Hence the need for media training and booking, as well as additional think tanks.
Thanks, Markos!
Speaking as a Briton I’m appreciative of the work of progressives such as yourself to fix your broken United States.
Don’t lecture me Markos when it was your site that denigrated ALL those who were pointing out the problems with electronic voting systems.
AND I have been supporting ‘my cause’ for years now ; And there are better sites than Larry’s that are specific towards the idea of REALLY supporting people getting properly represented such as :
http://www.thirty-thousand.org/index.htm
http://www.thirty-thousand.org/index.htm
People have been tiring to gain attention to ‘my cause’ for awhile but I guess you weren’t aware of such.
Whoops cut and paste error:
http://bryanbrickner.blogspot……quals.html
Kos – I think “Gatekeeper” is not the most powerful part of your creation.
Actually, you hold a telescope and aim it at: Iran, McCain, Iraq, Palin, etc. and the eye piece is actually an electronic biomass of fiber optic cables – each of which goes to one of millions and millions of homes across America – and the world (I for instance am a Canadian). These millions of “feelers” then immediately respond back through the telescope (your “Gatehouse”) and appear INSTANTLY on your site.
Within seconds of launching a query – millions of minds have focused – added FACT, OPINION, ANALYSIS and AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT – a consensus forms. The trolls are quickly eliminated – the position materializes and it is so powerfully supported by the mass-mind of the assembled that the MSM have NO CHOICE but to report those facts, etc.
They have one reporter in Alaska YOU have thousands – each bringing a crumb to the table – between their facts, and the combined application of intelligence – voila – we have created a superior – alternative universe of information – infinitely faster, quicker and more progressive than anything that has EVER existed.
We now CONTROL the GATE, the flow of millions of bytes of INFORMATION and PREGRESSIVE minds (the BEST minds there are) ANALYISE – the result is a tapestry of mind unseen in any other age.
We are all a fiber optic cable apart from being part of the progressive mind that will shape the future.
Kos – thanks bro. Thanks!
Thanks Markos!
Teddy up
How do you deal with this commenting system?