edit: Progressive Accountability has already got a pop-up fact check video up. Damn, they’re fast.
.
Well, that was certainly something. Senator Obama answered the questions, and Senator McCain recited his talking points from the campaign (most liberal voting record? Dude. Although I liked Obama’s answer – his record only looks liberal to someone who voted with Bush over 90% of the time).
OK, a few things.
.
The bear DNA thing? I know it was one of your campaign talking points, Senator, but you must not read the paper. It turned out not to be such a good idea
"My friends," McCain says, "we spent $3 million of your money to study the DNA of bears in Montana. "Now I don’t know if that was a paternity issue or a criminal issue, but it was a waste of money."
It turns out, the state of Alaska under Gov. Sarah Palin, McCain’s running mate, sought millions in federal funds to study the genetics of harbor seals, and gather data on halibut fisheries and sea crabs.
.
No, Senator McCain, we’re all aware that you were never Miss Congeniality. Your running mate was (oh, wait, no, she wasn’t). You didn’t really need to repeat it four times.
At any rate, if you were with the people who made this mess on nine out of ten votes, it really doesn’t matter if you did it in such a way that they still don’t like you. Inability to work and play well with others is not a selling point.
.
No, Senator McCain, if we get out of the quagmire in Iraq, it will not mean that the soldier whose name is on your bracelet gave his life in vain. Nobody but you is saying that here. He gave his life because he did the duty he signed up for in service of his country.
What we sent him to do, Senator McCain – I remember this distinctly – was to take out Saddam Hussein and protect America from the weapons of mass destruction Saddam Hussein didn’t have. Mission (and I do have a cite on this, Senator) accomplished.
And look! Senator Obama has a bracelet too. The mother of the serviceman whose name is on it doesn’t speak for all the families of our servicemen either. She, like the mother of your soldier, speaks for herself.
As it happens, a healthy majority of the country agrees with her. Not any of which means that any of our soldiers’ sacrifices are any less tragic and honorable (or that either mother – or anyone who mourns them – has less of a right to their opinions, beliefs or way of grieving). Remember this?
But in a larger sense we cannot dedicate, we cannot consecrate, we cannot hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it far above our power to add or detract.
Yeah, I know. You weren’t around then, but I’m sure they mentioned it in military school.
.
via lalisa – Another thing you seem to have missed at military school: Eisenhower was not the President during D-Day (although I’d think you’d remember that – you were certainly old enough to read the papers, if current events were your thing). You also got the story wrong.
Eisenhower wrote "let’s get ‘em boys" letter to the troops before the invasion and a letter in case of failure—which was not a letter of resignation, but a letter taking full responsibility.
.
On Afghanistan: you know what the problem with supporting the "afghani freedom fighters" was, Senator? We trained them, and then some of them became the Taliban afterwards.
[note: thanks for the fact check in comments]
Leaving aside your rather odd we’re going to invade Pakistan but it’s tacky to say so talking point, it might be nice if we went back to supporting the American soldiers across the border. We pulled supplies away from them while they were trying to defeat the actual people who were behind 9/11 (you know, the guy we haven’t caught yet. Because he’s hiding in Pakistan. And they don’t want us to go in. So we sell them nuclear weapons delivery systems. Despite their record of selling nuclear technology to the Axis of Evil. Except for, well, Iraq).
Our soldiers are still dying there, Senator, and they can’t carry out their mission, because we’re bogged down in Iraq. Senator Obama knows that. While you are correct that his European Affairs subcommittee did not hold their own hearings on the matter, he did attend the Foreign Relations Committee hearing.
You, on the other hand, Senator McCain, the highest ranking Republican on the Senate Armed Services Committee, missed all seven of the hearings that they held on Afghanistan during the same two years, according to ABC News
.
About talking to dictators: you appear to have evolved on that
You also said this (YouTube at the link)
I don’t believe in walls. I believe in freedom. If I were president, I would negotiate a free trade agreement with almost any country willing to negotiate fairly with us.
and contrary to what you said in the debate, Senator, your great and good friend Dr. Kissinger did indeed say we had to engage Iran and Syria
Frm Secretaries Of State Agreed Engagement With Iran Was Necessary. "On Iran and Syria, both Republican and Democratic former secretaries backed engagement when they spoke at a panel at George Washington University. McCain slammed Obama earlier in the campaign for taking a similar stand. ‘I believe we need to engage with Iran,’ said Albright who served under President Bill Clinton during his second term. Powell agreed with Albright. ‘Let’s get together and talk about nuclear weapons… Start a dialogue at a low level and let it grow over time,’ said Powell, who served President George W. Bush in his first term. While serving for President George H.W. Bush in the 1990s, Baker recalled that the elder Bush’s administration offered to meet with Iran at the highest diplomatic level, but Iran refused for its own political reasons. Baker also said the United States might have to contain Iran just as it did with the Soviet Union for decades. The next American president, he said, should be prepared to warn Tehran that Washington will aim its ‘strategic deterrant’ at Iran if it points a nuclear missile at Israeli or US targets. Kissinger, who served under both Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford, said: ‘I’m in favor of negotiating with Iran.’ The US aim would be to achieve a stable Middle East, he said." [Agence France Presse, 09/16/08]
and here they are saying it on YouTube: Kissinger, Powell, Albright, Baker, Christopher
.
Oh, dear, Senator McCain, were you a POW? OK, let me give you a quick hint anyway. One of the ways you start to heal the wounds of war is you let the war end. You’re welcome.
.
I’m going to be updating this for Late Night. Please put your own fact checks (with cites) in comments.
edit: via Ian in comments
Lie—McCain: “He has voted in the United States Senate to increase taxes on people who make as low as $42,000.”
Well, no.
Lie—“Senator Obama is the chairperson of a committee that oversees NATO that is in Afghanistan. To this day he has never had a hearing. That’s remarkable.”
He chaired the full committee hearing on Afghanistan, actually.
Bonus: McCain missed every Armed Service Committee meeting on Afghanistan in the last 2 years.
Lie—McCain: “Senator Obama said the surge could not work, said it would increase sectarian violence, said it was doomed to failure. Recently on a television program he said it exceeded our wildest expectations, but yet after conceding that, he still says that he would oppose the surge if he had to decide that again today.”
March 11, 2007—Obama said “I don’t think there’s been any doubt that if we put U.S. troops in that, in the short term, we might see some improvement in certain neighborhoods because the militias are going to fade back into the community.”



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feh
jesus, how many great chances did Obama blow?
I sure as hell ran out of fingers and toes….
It turns out, the state of Alaska under Gov. Sarah Palin, McCain’s running mate, sought millions in federal funds to study the genetics of harbor seals, and gather data on halibut fisheries and sea crabs.
I was *sure* Obama would jump on that.
Nah.
Thank you Julia! What a BLEH! debate!
Obi missed some openings to say the least. He let McCain jab at him and he never got in a real zingers.
He needs to shoot out Mic’s lies and do it non stop and call him a LIAR.
Obama is not a progressive. Obama is not a peace candidate.
Obama can learn to be polite and not give… John is right.
back to debate school for Barack.
who’s the meanest, baddest, street-fightin’, pipe-hittin’ Dem who could step in to school him?
And call a LIE a LIE!
McCain is poaching Obama’s issues.
BBBOOORRRIIINNNGGG!!!!
OB has to get some fire!
McBoring just droned on and on and on and on!!!
They sounded like faculty!!
I think OB won just by being there, but not by much more.
BBBOOORRRIIINNNGGG!!!
Well, he did say you’re wrong a few times, which was nice.
I do have to say that the PBS panel, who except for Clarence Page were pretty reliably in the tank for McCain, called it for Obama.
Obama should have called McSame on the veteran issue – McSame claimed he wanted to support them – hit him with his record!
Geo. Wills called it for Obama…
Why didn’t Obama say, no, John YOU don’t understand!
Cassie. :)
and get labeled the nasty angry militant black man beating up on frail old white man McCain?
Tweety called it for Mc$hame
Whatever our reactions–and I was yelling at my teevee with everyone else–the Village idiots around the dial seem to be kinder to Obama. Gergen (CNN) just said McCain “needed a clear victory here, and he didn’t get it.” Borger, of all people, said McCain sounded condescending.
Progressives are not going to get what we mant from Obama…much less from McSame.
MSNBC calling it a narrow McCrazy win.
Reports from other networks, please?
Gotta say it, JohnSidney takes this one. Just by making it to the final bell he wins.
And McCain is . . . what?
Yeah? How long does that take?
lol.
yep.
LOL!
Here’s an idea for Obama: I’m glad to see Senator McCain has changed his views to agree with me.
McCain channeled his inner Bob Dole. Sneering, condescending and ‘back in the day we walked to school 2 miles every day…’
I like it. Send it to the campaign!
I think Obama did rather well – he came across as intelligent, steady, and reasonable. McCain came across as creepy.
I like it. Send it to the campaign!
CNN is saying the JM came across as old and crusty and condescending. They are all saying he didn’t do as well as he should of in his subject matter. They didn’t like his style. They also had a focus group with independents. They didn’t like JM attacking BO. The line went down every time.
I was struck by the fact that very the first words out McCain’s mouth were false; Sen. Kennedy actually got home from the hospital almost an hour before the debate started.
Not that this was the last questionable thing he said, but there’s nothing like leaping out of the gate with a plausible sounding but blatantly false statement to set the tone for the evening.
– MarkusQ
and get labeled the nasty angry militant black man beating up on frail old white man McCain?
Yes.
At the very least, stop agreeing with the old fuck, and when he gets called a name, respond in kind.
And call a lie a L.I.E.!
McNutty came across as RIDGID …and ANGRY
McCain basically spent 1 1/2 hours lying about his record, about Obama’s record, about past presidents, and U.S. History in general. It would be nice if some MSM “journalists” actually called him on it.
their poll is saying something very different – over 70% for Obama.
good
Feisty? The fucking second Obama gets feisty is the second he’s tagged as AN ANGRY BLACK MAN.
He’s playing it right as Cool, Calm and Collected.
that’s the Rovian way. Go for their strength and tear it down.
Yea he did get that Chucky doll look when he was snickering.
Is the VP debate next week, if the McCain campaign doesn’t postpone it to resolve America’s moose crisis?
epu’d:
I think we were expecting too much but I watched on CNN and the response meter was always more positive for Obama than McCain (except for the repub line). Everytime McC was personally critical of Obama, the meter went down. We wanted a knock-out punch, and there certainly were opportunities, but the response meter favored Obama on nearly every answer.
RIGID LIKE riggormoritis
Very good point
Good god, who was that awful woman from the Mc camp on CNN just now? (Shudder!)
L L L – L Lie?
Sorry, not in their vocabulary.
Everybody refresh. I don’t know how they did it, but the good folks at ProgressiveAccountability.org have a pop-up fact check video already done, and it’s up on top of the post.
yes as isaid on another thread….he is a better man than i Gunga Din
their poll is saying something very different – over 70% for Obama.
good news, but MSNBC polls seem to always trend D.
I like seeing the results, but I don’t trust that poll at all.
Biden good on CNN now.
You and wobblybits et al might just be on to something. I’ve grown discouraged, but what I don’t know about people… I hope I’m clueless and needlessly negative.
Jingle. Jingle.
McCain was dismissive you don’t get it, you won’t admit the Surge is working, you don’t know the difference between a tactic and a strategy.
Every Minority man and woman has heard their well thought out ideas dismissed out of hand without the idea being addressed.
Call it being called “boy”
McCain has just pissed us all off, making voters angry is a great way to make sure that voters vote against you.
I don’t think the White MSM talking heads will catch this.
Right, you and Wobbs have it.
OT: National Review has a column by Kathleen Parker on why Palin should bow out for her country. The sharks are starting to circle…
Obama should have started right off with “I’m glad to see you’ve actually made it here tonight, John. Many Americans were starting to think you were trying to chicken out.”
The image of steam rising from John McCain’s ears would have made a great special effect for the debate.
He loses the election if he gets tagged as the angry black man but that doesn’t mean he can’t call the man on his lies
it would have been nicer if Obama had called him on it.
We can and will do tons of fact checking and countering what McQueeg said, but that was Obama’s job tonight. He was not as sharp as he needs to be to sew this thing up.
Johnny McMaverick’s a dick. It’s OK, you can say it.
Go to CNN and vote for Obama as the winner.
((Joy)) nah just overly optimistic (to the chagrin of the more pessimistic hubby). Hey it takes all types to rock the world. But keep your chin up, we got this election
Yeah, Obama said he agreed and McCain that Obama “mis-understand” – but how often did Obama say McCain was WRONG! or Liar.
Digg
The only satisfaction I would have gotten from this would have been if Obama had strangled McWorse.
Probably not the most effective vote-getter though.
OR
If McCain exploded into flames for LYING!
While I am disappointed on many levels, I’m consoled with the vote-getting thing.
… or so i am telling myself …
Ethanol Iowa, Illinois all the corn belt Rural farm votes that normally vote GOP, Nuclear Power forget Nevada where they pan to dump the waste.
I want polls!
The odious Nichole Wallace Devenish, Bush-Rove communications lackey, former WH communications director.
it’s the Keith and Rachel viewers.
good point by Olbermann – McCrazy acknowledged that the U.S is torturing prisoners.
Biden is right on
Oooh! Let’s hire you as debate coach!
Pleased to meet you.
Nothing about the future from McC…all about the past..
Thank you, wobblybits! I’ll pull my nose out of my rum and put my chin up. OK, back down into the rum… after I go fill out some polls…
He definitely should have mentioned Keating.
but if he did it with humor. . . .
rut roh…..ANDERSON COOPER told Wolfie not to hold his bredth,on Sara Pallin commenting on the debate on tv
I’m past words in my anger I want to see McCain campaign on the South Side of Chicago!
Absent a big gaffe, and there wasn’t one, these things do not turn on debating points. Rather, the key is tone. That is what people will remember and ultimately internalize.
Obama’s tone was much better than McCain’s.
Agreed. As I mentioned downstairs, Obama was described as having underperformed in the primary debates and went on to win the nomination. Let us hope for a similar outcome in the general.
Anyone hungry for debate cake?
For the hand wringers and trolls among us, ask yourself what you will remember in the morning about the McCain debate performance. Now ask yourself the same about Obama. Obama gave specific answers on foreign policy backed up by facts. McCain came across as Obama doesn’t know and I know. Think about it and please respond in the morning about what McCain said.
yeah – now.
But I’ve watched that phenomenon for several years now.
Can’t really explain it, but it’s the ultimate outlyer.
That would have been so cool
Good God, the Obama campaign’s people are flooding my inbox. Make McCain stop lying to save the intertubes from e-mails debunking him.
Seriously, McCain is either completely clueless or just a pathological liar. (Well, ok, he probably said a few true things. Probably, need to fact check that.)
Just a few examples:
Lie—McCain: “He has voted in the United States Senate to increase taxes on people who make as low as $42,000.”
Well, no.
Lie—“Senator Obama is the chairperson of a committee that oversees NATO that is in Afghanistan. To this day he has never had a hearing. That’s remarkable.”
He chaired the full committee hearing on Afghanistan, actually.
Bonus: McCain missed every Armed Service Committee meeting on Afghanistan in the last 2 years.
Lie—McCain: “Senator Obama said the surge could not work, said it would increase sectarian violence, said it was doomed to failure. Recently on a television program he said it exceeded our wildest expectations, but yet after conceding that, he still says that he would oppose the surge if he had to decide that again today.”
March 11, 2007—Obama said “I don’t think there’s been any doubt that if we put U.S. troops in that, in the short term, we might see some improvement in certain neighborhoods because the militias are going to fade back into the community.”
Odious in the extreme!
Da poll:
http://www.cnn.com/
Biden, God love him, says that he’s looking forward to debating Palin and hopes he does as good as Obama. He said it with a straight face.
yes…McNasty sounded NASTY
Yeah that would work. It certainly would piss McCain off (and I’m soooo for that)
oops…already mentioned today….
That’s were Republicans want the country to live, in the past.
Likewise, pleased to meet you, TexBetsy. I lurk here regularly, but only comment occasionally. Man of few words.
Ach! I was practically screaming that line at my television.
No McCain YOU don’t understand!
Yeah, I’ve heard people who can’t stand the constant ‘conflict’ of politics, who are really paying attention this year. They want someone who makes sense and has solutions, and they’re up to their eyeballs with the negative ads.
I think the McCain people are going to be spinning desperately — I hope the Dems got all the video b/c there are some GREAT clips of Obama that are much more ‘vision oriented’ and solutions-based than McCain’s anecdotes, ‘war stories’ and failure to even look at Barak Obama.
The McCain lack of eye contact was key; McCain never actually ENGAGED with Obama, whereas Obama (courteously, diplomatically) did engage with specific McCain statements, claims, and points.
The ONLY way McCain ‘wins’ is if his spinmeisters manage to convince CNN consultants not to believe their own eyes.
and as I replied downstairs, he was playing to a dem audience most of which appreciates the nuance. Now the audience is broader. The big question is how it will play to the indies.
well at least they are quick on the debunking. so Mccain will come across as the pathalogical liar he is but I want to see Obama call him a liar
i don’t think Obama should be fact checking – way too boring, defensive, and professorial. the lies will be caught out and will count against McCain.
10:01 CDT: [Nate] Independents in the MediaCurves focus group gave the debate to Obama 61-39. They also think he won every individual segment. Republicans gave the debate to McCain 90-10, Democrats to Obama 93-7.
67% Obama now
It’s not just you. Every time McCain said that ALL THREE reaction lines on CNN’s screen (including Repub!!!) plunged DOWN.
guess we will have to see how this pans out in the coming days. I do think that tone will play a role as well as the lies McCain told but what do I know? *g*
Boom! CNN just played the footage of Kissinger saying exactly what Obama said he said.
All those old coots from the Convention…I remember. ;)
But how much of the TV audience will know he’s a liar?
that poll we get freeped…guaranteed
10:01 CDT: [Nate] Independents in the MediaCurves focus group gave the debate to Obama 61-39. They also think he won every individual segment. Republicans gave the debate to McCain 90-10, Democrats to Obama 93-7.
from fivethirtyeight.com
EGGZELENT!
Well, FWIW RevDeb, I think that at a certain point he really does need the netroots and his infrastructure keeping his back.
BTW: Awesome fact-checking job!!
And I suspect the papers and media will cover this pretty heavily; Obama comes out much better, so expect more acid insults from the McCain ‘
strategists‘ lobbyists about thelying‘calling us on our bullshit’ media.jim!
dude, where the hell you been?
Barrack needs to learn how to needle McSame in a humorous way. That is the key to getting under his skin.
Also, I thought Obama missed a golden opportunity when McCain said that, by simply talking with someone you give them, and any wacko statement they’ve ever made, greater legitimacy. Obama should have shot back with something like:
“Do you really believe that John? Do you really believe that by just talking with John Hagee — let alone soliciting his support — you’ve given greater legitimacy to his claim that the Catholic Church is a cult, or to his claim that New Orleans deserved to be destroyed by Katrina? Do you really believe that just by talking to a Russian organized crime figure like Oleg Deripaska — let alone celebrating your 70th birthday on their yacht — you are some how legitimizing them?
“Do you really believe this John, or are you just blowing smoke, repeating your talking points without even thinking about how absurd they sound to anyone who thinks for half a minute?”
*sigh* These are the things he might have said…
– MarkusQ
P.S. Still, it’s not as bad as Kerry, who passed up so many great openings it made me want to cry.
Bets. it’s been all over the tv how his campaign blew their stack because they were being called out on their lies inthe media. Last polls showed that people trusted O more than McC
So basically people came out with the same opinion they went in with – which amounts to a win for Obama.
TV commercial……McLiar
I sure hope several likely McCain voters read the 200 fact-checking posts on here – they’ll doubtless learn a few things!
Of course, it would’ve helped if The Candidate himself offered some more firm, unequivocal corrections of his own, and kept the “I agrees” to a minimum.
Likely McCain voters, feel free to chime in on the discussion here when a fact-check edifies you!
So far:
Quick Vote
Who fared better in the first presidential debate?
Sen. John McCain 28% 4600
Sen. Barack Obama 67% 10983
Neither 6% 928
Total Votes: 16511
TV commercial,and “good evenin”
Prolly LBJ, but he’s dead.
aaaahh the media is doing their job. it is easy when you already know the man has issues with veracity
So basically people came out with the same opinion they went in with
gawd, I hope that is the true reaction.
At the moment, I’ll take that in a heartbeat.
Sorry, I missed your earlier reply. Point taken.
“There ya go again John. Here’s the truth.”
Like said below, each guy performed very well according to values of his own tribe. McCain was nasty and indecent and that’s considered good in the R camp. Obama’s tone was respectful and he demonstrated command of the material and of himself, and the Ds value that.
Obama’s strategy for the debate was about judgment
Obama Camp: It’s A Debate About Judgment
I can’t say who won the debate as the format sucked. I think both had strong points
Jingle!!!
Okay, but which channel is she on?
Which audience is she talking to?
She’s almost certainly not talking to a swing audience, nor to a host that’s going to insist she cut the bullshit.
Honestly, after that Couric-Palin interview (which I thought Couric hit out of the ballpark) I’ll bet Couric and a whole lot of other MSMers are in no mood to let the McCain
lobbyistsstrategists continue with their endless bullshit.Hey, I’m a dreamer… but it’s starting to happen.
Yeah, I watched the debate on MSGOP and had to turn it immediately. CNN is surprisingly even handed.
That’s what Brooks/Shields said in their comments, since there were not gaffs, it stayed on Ob. favor.
Obama’s best part was the ‘you were wrong’ bit
That seems quite likely. The next debates will be very irritating for McCain. Especially after Palin drowns in her own ignorance.
Good night, all! It was great to experience the first debate with all the Pups. Will be back asap, whenever that may be.
Ann in AZ — I just caught your last response downstairs, thanks!!! We have a good meeting to look forward to!
Precisely!!!
And consider the news of the last ten days ;-)))
Okay, I have to refrain from gloating too much… six more weeks to go.
and that is good
Right now the CNN poll is Obama 67%; McC 27%. Every non-scientific poll I’ve seen (when it’s dem vs. repub issues) shows the same approximate results. I think that’s where the country truly is. I don’t know why it’s not reflected in the scientific polls but if everyone is allowed to vote, that’s the result I’m expecting.
Anybody care to estimate what percentage of C-Span callers are coherent. Is five percent overly generous?
It is the job of every Dem to get the McC lies out. Obama can’t do it – too much of that would hurt him. People vote for odd reasons and one of them is sympathy. You notice someone said above that the TV people thought McC was unpleasant to Obama – they got it. Don’t want McC to sympathy for being old and a POW !
Exactly.
Obama’s tone was splendid, and he answered the questions and talked about the future.
The McCain campaign should be shitting themselves.
That’s usually the way these things work – reinforcing existing opinions as everyone has his/her own interpretation. The true independents don’t make up their minds until less than a week before the election – that’s 20% or so. Don’t let the polls fool you, they really push hard to get a “preference” out of people.
yes meme
RIGID OLD MAN vs…young flexible thoughtful man
ummm I have yet to tune in and hear a coherent call. I thought it was me
But sure feels good, doesn’t it?
If we clear our heads of the facts/lies and just look at demeanor, Obama won.
And I think that is what most Americans are doing.
Biden on MSNBC now saying ”Good night for us.”
Biden up on MSNBC
Thanks, I really believe that in the morning, most folks will not remember what McCain said except for his whining. Obama had a command of the facts.
Look.
I think something has to be mentioned here that a lot of folks may not like.
And that is the ‘Branch Rickey’ factor.
Because, just like Jackie R. before him, O’ had to make sure he didn’t alienate the cracker vote right out of the box.
Thus, as Mr. Rickey once advised Robinson, it looks like the braintrust advised Obama to turn the other cheek tonight.
So I think folks should stop fretting about how Obama was too deferential and agreed too much.
Why?
Because, when the time came Rickey turned Robinson loose.
And that’s when the action really started.
OK?
.
I like that Biden is laughing….
Exactly. Barrack needs to get better at snark, but I don’t know if it’s in his personality. To his credit, he is trying to talk in a seious way about the issues. But he needs to mix it up a little. Hate to bring up Palin (yeesh), but she has a knack for sarcasm. That’s her only game, though, she brings nothing else with her.
I’ve done my part.
Jingle. Jingle.
Still can’t believe JM brought up Teddy Kennedy. What gall.
yes…he is restrained
Good, mockery can be helpful. Hope Letterman still has McCain in his sights.
The debate was what it was. What it meant, I’m sure y’all will tell us. i thought Obama was too nice. But maybe that’s not bad. Becuz’ we were told after 2000 that Al Gore was too patronizing to poor widdle Georgie Bush. Remember? The guy you could have a beer with? (even tho’ he sez he’s a teetotaler).
Obama needs to say we can’t afford the war and a bailout for the banks present it as an either or question let McCain make a few lame explanations about how tax cuts can pay for the war and then hit him with Bush did that just look at this economy.
exactly. Obama came off as a good man to be president, and McCain as a good crypt-keeper.
one thing,i wont undestimate McNasty again,i started to feel sorry for him
Our country is in a crisis and I for one want a serious President.
Can’t wait to see Sarah up against Joe and Gwen. Mincemeat, she’ll be mincemeat after they get through with her.
I love Biden, warts and all.
Be looking forward to it. Have a great night!
roTL, that is very helpful. We blogger types tend to look for something that looks like victory, instead of persuasion. Obama isn’t trying to persuade us: he’s trying to persuade the people you are describing. When we evaluate the debate, we have to think about the real audience of persuadables. It isn’t about us and our need to crush the wrinkly white dude.
i agree
Vet groups rate McCain at 20% Biden said to KO we need to get that fact out!
Biden: JM out of touch and angry. Ding.
We need to police our own facts; “On Afghanistan: you know what the problem with supporting the mujahadeen was, Senator? They became the Taliban afterwards.”
The Taliban is a Pushtun phenonomon; the mujahadeen was comprised of many different tribes.
http://countrystudies.us/afghanistan/38.htm
The only good thing for Obama is that he seems to have won among independents on economic issues and that is the most important issue to voters in this election.
The whole ‘angry black man’ issue is only brought up by those who are already racist and won’t be voting for Obama; he needs to show more emotion and less intellectual if he really wants to pull middle America voters to his side.
Interrupting McCrazy when he makes his lies is necessary. Less politeness, more feistiness is what he needs to do in the next debate.
Dirty little secret: I watch a lot of video tape over, and over, and over for certain work-related tasks.
If more here had turned the sound off on the debates for certain periods, you’d see that Obama far exceeded McCain. Body language, eye contact, gestures, rhythm of speech — McCain’s in trouble.
No one here has to believe me, but I’m really confident making that observation.
Was Dave on him again last night? I had not watched.
I’m not surprised. He has shown that he has not met one political stunt that he doesn’t like or won’t try
yes …WE SEE 2 REASONABLE MEN…they are not republicans
OK, updated again with the cite on Kissinger’s statement on talking to Iran and Syria, with links to video on the former SoS’ involved.
I hang out with teenagers 24/7. MUST know snark.
Compare pics of Cindy and the Crypt-keeper side by side and except for Cindy having more hair, the resemblance is uncanny. Guess that makes Johnny the crypt-occupant, of course he has trouble remembering how many crypts they own.
yeah he was unmerciful
Palin, if she’s still the veep candidate, will self-destruct during the debate. Biden doesn’t even have to show up and it will happen. His job is much easier than people are saying. He doesn’t have to attack her, she’ll do all the damage herself responding to the questions.
It was unbelievably brutal.
what she sees in his misogynist ass I will never know
Was Dave on him again last night?
oh yeah.
Oh yeah, at least as much as the first night.
Me, too! Btw, I watched that show with Kissinger and he said exactly what Obama said he said. It was a very good CNN show and I’m pretty sure a lot of other people heard him say it too! I wanted to yell at the TV screen, “Hey, fool, there’s video tape.” Maybe make that into an ad…
i believe you….hunchback of DEE CEE
Halperin gave Obama a A- and McCain a B-… He is not a shining liberal.
Brutally, maybe more than the first night.
Hell YES!!!
There’ve been elections that I skipped because I was so disgusted with the Dems, but Howard Dean gives me hope and I really have to say that convention, and the caliber of other Dems over whom Obama prevailed all really vetted him and made him a much better candidate than he started out as… and howdy, he is one awesome ‘learner’. I just watched him get better and better and better.
Man, haven’t we waited years for something like this…
And now, to drive a stake through the heart of bogus, fraudulent economic policies…
I’m very glad Biden’s on the ticket. He sounds like a smart, engaged, confident, regular guy.
fwiw: I don’t mean to thread nanny, and goodness knows I’m scrambling to post updates so I couldn’t if I wanted to, but it’s a lot easier for me to read suggestions for handling things we weren’t happy with better than it is for me to read what sucked. JMO.
Better they shit on themselves than on the America public. America is up to it’s neck with Republiclan bullshit.
hahahahaahhaahahaha
The warts make him special and comes across as just a regular guy. I really really like him.
damn I missed Biden
Thanks to you all. So sorry I missed it…I’ll check it out;) He surely has more material for tonight.
Some of us were discussing that awhile back and concluded it is a codependency thing.
i believe you – remember Nixon’s 5 o’clock shadow defeated him….
I think Keith (heart) Joe.
Random thoughts:
Obama won, but not by as much as I thought he would. He played the debate perfectly, and he came across as slow and steady (i.e. Presidential), which is what he needed to do. I think his one repeated line wasn’t even planned–”That’s not true.” In the long run, that’s going to help, because the fact checkers are probably going to conclude that McCain was full of shit in each case, and Obama was correct to call him on it.
The surprise to me was McCain, who seemed well-rested and sharp. For the past week, he’s been in a tailspin, and he’s been looking like his left eyelid was about to fall off. There was a real chance that this debate could have been a total train wreck for him, and he managed to salvage it. I thought he came off as grumpy and petulant, but not as much as I expected him to.
The pundits are saying that a tie here (and I don’t think it was a tie, I think Obama won it, but a victory by the Dem is ALWAYS labelled a tie in these things, which we’ve learned from the 2000 and 2004 debates) is essentially a loss for McCain, since this is supposed to be his strong suit. Under normal circumstances, I’d agree, but McCain has had such a shitty week that I think he’ll get a bounce from this debate just because he showed up and didn’t burst into flames.
yes…real family values….real guy
prolly replay Keifs show
hubby said if Obama doesn’t win he would easily be elected Prime Minister in the UK (he’s on his 4th beer)
JM looked a bit Nixonian out there tonight, come to think of it. With a worse voice.
hahahahhhahahhaahahahahahahhaahahaha
I copied this from Baloon Juice because I have a FOX free house.. Mike in MI said Biden on Fox hammers the tactics/strategy point. “Any military person will tell you the surge was a tactic to achieve the strategy of political stability. Hasn’t happened.” I did watch Biden on MSNBC and he seemed quite pleased.
Hi, folks. So good to come here and talk w/ intelligent people. I had to listen to the debate in the car cominghome from work – was screaming “liar! Liar!” constantly.
I’m not sure what to think, either, but I suspect McCain’s condescension and nasty smirk hurts more than helps. The voice alone was maddening.
As several folks have said, most of us (minorities and women especially, but all of us when we’re young) have had to put up w/ that from old folks, and everybody HATES it.
CNN telephone polls saying Obama won..did better, would handle Iraq better.
that quiet CREEPY whisper to all his lies was like Boris Karloff who he is older than
I don’t know why, but I will be mildly surprised if there IS a vp debate.
Guess that makes Johnny the crypt-occupant,
I really don’t much wanna think about Johnny occupying Cindy’s “crypt”….
Can we just agree that someone running for Miss Whatever doesn’t qualify for VP?
Correction: that’s what the Bush insiders, led by Rove, poisoned the ears of the vapid, herdlike MSM and they bought into it. It was shameful and they were appallingly irresponsible.
Which is why things like this thread, and Ian Welch’s report of his overflowing Inbox, are so important.
But I’ll still stick with my ‘professional opinion’ that Obama won this thing and the YouTubes, the online clips, and the contrast of that Couric-Palin interview will only drive home the point.
McCain’s campaign should be in Full Panic Mode.
MSNBC says BO wins in CBS poll of uncommitted voters.
Oh, no disagreement from me on THOSE points!
Krauthammer on Fox called it a draw. That is not a typo.
I would have commented on this earlier, but I was busy rinsing out my underwear.
I wonder if conservatives are trying to get McCain to lose so he can be a convenient scapegoat.
He is a brit and loves his beer LOL Glad I weened him off that drinking it warm shit
CBS poll on uncommitted voters: 40% Obama 40% Draw 20% McCain
thanks, updated to reflect that.
CBS poll of independents as to who won the debate – 40% Obama, 38% undecided, 22% (?) McCain.
YES. I am positively allergic to that “you don’t understand” shit.
Cold and clammy doesn’t curl your curd? Not to mention having to contend with the cobwebs and bats.
Senator Miss John Congeniality McBush… sounds like a Westminster Kennel Club name.
hahahahahahahahahha
what a cute couple…..”g”
insulting isn’t it? It brings out my ‘understand this mf-look’
I just updated to show that.
Well, hey, if you want to read something very, very interesting about Palin, check this out on a site that’s basically aimed at a very wide audience and operated by evangelicals:
http://blog.beliefnet.com/crun…..he-wo.html
see my 142. Exactly.
My Senator — love Joe.
McRusty was very cold to Cindy LOu on stage
CNN said wait and see the polls, but seemed to call it for Obama, saying that McCain shined on foreign policy, but everybody knows he does, but Obama was able to achieve what he needed to achieve to convince people that he was good enough in that area.
That was a visual thing. He sounded better than he looked.
Yeah I think I’ll keep him. To be honest I don’t think there are other people out there in the world that would want us so good thing we found each other
Warms my heart, and Gergen talking about what a set back this is for Mc if Obama won. Fantastic.
You are SO right. I hate this format. Every election I hope it will change. It would help if moderators were true moderators, but that seems too much to hope for.
Invariably, the moderator shuts down the Dem before he can refute lies/call out the Repub/make his point. And the Repuke always seems to get the last word.
Jim Lehrer is [marginally] better than some other possibilities (can you say Brian Williams?), but still is pretty lousy. He should have shut McCain down when he continued to talk right over Obama. That was infuriating, and you can trust him to do it every time. IOKIYAR.
Yes. I agree. McCain’s been so unpredictable that not embarrassing himself will be considered to have exceeded expectations.
While all of us wanted to see Obama verbally slug McCain for his condescension, I am thinking that perhaps his diplomatic behavior scored with Indies.
Will the corporate media fall for the Republican spin and in 48 hours declare the crypt-keeper the winner? I don’t trust the media!
McNasty i think is NASTY to everyone….really
Wow. The bubbles stopped coming up from Krauthammer years ago. That’s surprising even if I agree with him.
Yes, it is. It slides out of his mouth so easily because he hasn’t been made to hear it during his privileged lifetime.
It has more flavor at room temperature, cold tends to dull the taste buds. Having said that, I always preferred cold. Don’t drink at all anymore, doesn’t mix well with the prescription meds I have to take for arthritis.
Actually not bad at room temperature if it is quality beer. Found that out last winter when the power went out (ice storm) for three days.
Just like W, incurious about the wide world. Can’t even imagine.
on him again now!
I am seldom right about anything but I am delighted that I pegged McC just right. I just knew that he was going to be patronizing to Obama and he was and it looked awful. If he was getting any AA votes he lost them tonight.
Yeah. Well… *clink* 5 beers and 6 shots of vodka… I win!!
Obama should come out with an ad that exploits all those “I understand” statements by McCain.
I was tense watching it because I thought McCain was holding his own, but I think Obama won on substance and he clearly has the big picture vision we need in a President.
By the end, McCain was left with a bunch of assertions about his maverick career that didn’t add up to much.
Nope. I think that the pageant organizers should be disqualified, but not the participants. If you’re trying to scrape up scholarship money to go to college, you shouldn’t be penalized for getting it from a beauty pageant.
good cause he is another putz
GOP trying to get McCain to lose so he can be scapegoat -
This ticket is their team B (or F) out there to be bloodied – to be the punching bag for enraged Americans. But the prospect that they could actually win!! whooo boy, amazes me!
The “you were wrong” sequence with McCain refusing to look at Obama will play well.
Not room temp…warm
McCain has some habit of not showing up..first Dave, then the debates. Just glad he could make it.
That surprises me. If this is McCain’s strength, he’s in big trouble. He didn’t talk about it. He kept answering questions with random unrelated talking points from his speeches. He reminded me a bit of Palin dutifully reciting things she’d memorized for Katie Couric.
seems so as i look around
I’m impressed. LOL mr wobbs just lifted another beer and said ‘cheers’
I can’t find information about whether Pakistan was considered a failed state in 1999 as McBullwrinkle said, but it has made the top 10 list for the past 3 years. Heckuva job helping out your buddy Perv, Mr. 90%.
Has Perris been around he/she was going to do a drinking game during the debate
ian upstairs
Ah, cnn talking about Columbus, Ohio viewers… everybody – repubs, dems, independents all trended down (disapproval) for mccain when negative.
Several reasons, including voter intensity plus a lot of new voters for Obama that the pollsters aren’t catching.
At least, those are my main hunches.
Yep.
talking about how Obama’s style is to agree (being the gentleman) and then point out the differences
Ian upstairs.
Hey – Ian’s got the polls up. Enjoy.
Howard Fineman (!) saying McCain’s attacks didn’t do him much good….
Scholarship, ok. VP, not so much.
Isn’t this a wonderful relief? And someone was talking about the way the polls seem to continue to go the same direction after the first ones like this.
He heats it up?
Salud!
Of course, my winnings tonight will catch up with me in the morning… so it’s best I sleep till noon.
I want someone that when his staff tells him about a problem (pick one: bin Laden planning on attaching the US, veterans care, insurgency running amuck, financial crisis) actually does something about it.
115 days and counting.
Ha! Too late, I drank it all. Me and Mr. Wobbs, that is.
no, he is a brit and they don’t drink it keg temp. It is actually warm. But after living in Brasil for 4 years in that hot ass heat, he has learned to drink it cold
very true. maybe take some aspirin before you hit the sack
I can imagine him repeating all of the hard names over and over again. He looked very satisfied when he got to use them. I think he mispronounced Zardari and Sevastopol though. But I guess his supporters think that is a good thing.
Frank, agree with your points, except that I sure sense the MSM is fed up with being lied to — AND bullied — by the McCain lobbyists strategists, so may be less to pass along the Poison Tips than they were against Gore in 2000 or Kerry in 2004.
I’ve seen signs (Joe Klein and Sully being the most frank and forthright) that some in the media have absolutely started to (finally!!) push back at being fed gobs of swill.
And the Couric interview with Palin, plus the Campbell Brown (of all people!) saying “Free Sarah Palin!” signal that the MSM is really fed up with being treated like a class of second graders who should shut up and take what’s dished out.
OK. When I drank at room temp last winter, room temp was actually about 50 degrees, so what do I know? *g*
Agree.
McCain gave absolutely no reason for anyone who’s not already firmly in his ‘base’ to vote for him.
He gave no vision of the future, and he may as well have been running for Pres of my local Chamber of Commerce — who, FWIW, has a more global perspective than I heard from John McCain, who didn’t even speak in any meaningful way to global trade networks, or long term relationships.
And wasn’t Indian P.M. Manmohan Singh in DC this week…? Wouldn’t McCain have wanted to meet up with the man behind India’s IT innovations…? McCain’s perspective was limited to military solutions. He blew his chance to show himself as a more innovative thinker or problem solver.
Jeez, I wouldn’t want him to touch my car engine if he can’t think more broadly than he displayed tonight. Like sadlyno, there were moments when I actually cringed for McCain.
Ick.
It wasn’t regarded as a failed state back then.
It may be now — or parts of it — directly as a result of BushCheney policies and focus on militarized topics.
In 1999, it was not regarded as a failed state, although Afghanistan was a source of deep concern to the World Health Organization and other international groups.
oh, i dunno.
around …
?
how’s my favorite wangdangdoodle?
ACL or ‘Hprns vs. Hogs?
I like McRusty.
McCrusty.
On meeting leaders without preconditions, uhm, I believe Eisenhower met a few times on U.S. soil with Kruschev. Was Kruschev less of a demon than Ahmadinejhad? I believe the Soviet constitution called for destroying America. How could Eisenhower meet with a leader who advocated destroying America? How naive of him. Did Kruschev say anything about how evil America was? If so, what did would Eisenhower say, “no it’s not”?