Once again, Bob Woodward has written a book that exposes the inner workings of the Bush Administration decision-making about war, The War Within: A Secret White House History, 2006-2008.
The book has sometimes been described as an account of the in-fighting over the decision to escalate the number of troops in Iraq; Condi Rice, Stephen Hadley, Rummy, and George Bush have alternately been labeled as the losers of the blame game that results.
But Woodward tells a more important story than that. It’s really the story of how Hadley and Bush side-stepped seven months of advice and review to implement the decision Bush purportedly favored from the start: to "double down" in Iraq by raising the number of troops. Woodward describes Hadley’s understanding of his role as National Security Adviser: "to ascertain Bush’s wishes, and then bring [top advisers] into line." He describes how, in October 2006, when three major policy reviews were under way, Hadley "had already concluded that a surge was the way to go, and he knew the president would want it as an option." Woodward describes Hadley’s "deliberate strategy to bend the Iraqi and U.S. governments to Bush’s will." And he describes Hadley’s delight after Bush ultimately decided to support a surge:
Hadley was more satisfied. He had figured out where the president wanted to go and had brought everyone around to that view. Bush had not adopted the stepping back suggested by Rice and her colleagues. He had rejected the pessimism of the CIA and various versions of a drawdown favored by Rumsfeld, Casey, the chiefs, the Iraq Study Group and most Democrats. Forcing consensus was an art form, Hadley believed, and he had worked it.
In short, Woodward tells the story of how Hadley and Bush ignored a great deal of considered advice, in the process stalling any decision for seven months (which happened to include the mid-term elections), and instead implemented the plan Bush favored anyway. Without–Woodward makes clear–doing anything to foster real consensus except firing the generals who opposed the plan.
As with all of Woodward’s contemporaneous histories of the Bush Administration, there are reasons to question whether people told him the truth. Woodward’s notes show, for example, that the book relies heavily on a May 20-21, 2008 on-the-record interview with Bush, during which (dialogue in the book reveals) Hadley coached Bush and Woodward’s interpretations. From the vantage of May 20, 2008, it is understandable that Bush and Hadley would want to claim early ownership of the surge (President Bush boasted of the success of the surge in another interview just days before his Woodward interview).
But that success story requires a very narrow focus on Iraq. The book doesn’t talk about the way the cost of the war has contributed to our growing economic crisis in the US. It only mentions the impact of these decisions on the Afghan war–and increasing destabilization of Pakistan–when it describes people criticizing Abizaid or Fallon or Mullen or Satterfield for expressing concerns about the region as a whole. That narrow focus may well reflect the Administration’s actual myopia with regards to Iraq, but if it does, Bush’s neglect of the country that actually attacked us on 9/11–and the way the surge makes that country more dangerous because of neglect–deserves more attention.
And then there’s the curious near-total absence of Dick Cheney from the first three-fifths of the book, the part describing the debates over a new strategy in Iraq, even while Woodward admits Cheney continued to "offer[] his views directly to the president." Cheney’s absence is particularly problematic given the reports that Saudi Arabia’s King Abdullah "summoned Cheney" to Riyadh to express displeasure (and issue threats) about the Iraq Survey Group’s proposals just before the time when–Woodward reports–Bush made up his mind to support a troop escalation.
According to Hadley, that moment [when Bush decided in favor of a surge] had come when the president called him in mid-December 2006 and said, "I’m getting comfortable with my decision, but I don’t want to give a speech yet."
Particularly given Woodward’s portrayal of the way Cheney later fiercely guards his back channel access through Jack Keane to David Petraeus–breaking the chain of command to protect the surge from all regional considerations–the description of Cheney as distanced from the decision to support the surge seems odd.
The jury is still out on the surge–years from now, Hadley and Bush may regret claiming to be early and insistent champions of it. As Woodward notes in an epilogue, "The next president will face a complex set of organizational, military, political and leadership challenges because of the Iraq War." So we don’t know how this will turn out. But Woodward’s latest provides many of the details we’ll need to understand how we got here. Join me in welcoming legendary reporter and author Bob Woodward to the FDL Book Salon.
As a reminder, please take all off-topic discussions to the prior thread.



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Welcome, Mr. Woodward. Really happy to have you join us today.
Bob, Welcome to the Lake.
Marcy, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
Hello, this is Bob Woodward. I will be happy to try to answer your questions.
Mr. Woodward – As part of one of your book publicity interviews, you recently described what you called a major “breakthrough” in military technology that — as you put it — “If you were an al-Qaida leader . . . and you knew about what they were able to do, you’d get your ass outta town.”
But you also decided you’re going to keep this information to yourself and not inform the American public about what you’ve learned about what our Government is doing.
In reaching the decision to keep this concealed, did you take into account whether the use of this new technology violates either American domestic law and/or whether its use would be a war crime?
And was your source a Bush official wanting to use you as a propaganda vehicle to publicize this claim, or was it a whistle-blower opposed to the use of this technology who wanted it revealed?
What an honor!
Okay, so who is really ultimately in control of this Administration?
How much influence does Kissinger have these days?
What do you think about Palin?
Welcome Bob!
and thanks for hosting this ew, very nice intro
Also, what about that super duper secret weapon they have to track down AQ and insurgents…
Are they putting something in their food? Like barium or something that they can track? Come on…give us a bigger hint…*g*
“The jury is still out on the surge.”
My jury’s been in for a long time. Smoke and mirrors — and spin, hype and bullshit — from the very beginning.
Did you get the sense that the focus REALLY was so myopically on Iraq, even after the Bhutto assassination and the NIEs pointing to the returning strength of Al Qaeda in Pakistan’s tribal lands?
I reached this decision very carefully, and with any new technique or operation there is always the possibility of abuse. But in this case, at this point, I know of none. But reporting on this and other matters will continue.
My sources on this include people who have no political agenda, as best I can tell. But in the context of the surge, or addition of 30,000 troops, I believed it was important to let readers and the public know there are other elements that contribute significantly to the drop in violence and increased security and stability in Iraq.
Thank you for being here. There is outstanding journalism here every day, with some of the best citizen journalists ever.
I bought your new book, but I think the Ministry of Truth has played you with their plausible deniability. Al Qaeda’s smuggling ring led by Dimitros Kokkos and Riffat Mahmoud, were incorporated at 3511 Silverside Road, Suite 105, Wilmington, Delaware. The Cocaine/Torture Gulfstream, was “owned” by “Clyde O’Connor”. Clyde also used that same address.
Don’t you think the Carlyle Group-Prince Bandar-Albritton-Bin Laden-Jonathon Bush Terrorist Network is really sloppy?
Welcome, Bob, to firedoglake. So, do you think we’ll ever get a full and complete interview on the record with David Addington? Because I, for one, would love to see him answer a few particulars on his legal reasoning…
Digg
As best I can tell, Mr. Addington, who is Vice President Cheney’s chief of staff is not giving interviews. When he testified before Congress recently, he skillfully or brazenly, depending on your point of view, avoided answers.
Does Bob know that he has to refresh to move the comments up?
Hello, Mr Woodward, and thank you for this insightful book. I’ve been a tremendous fan of your work since reading, ten days after my high school graduation, your and Carl Bernstein’s article about the Watergate breakin. Your continued work is a gift to our republic.
My question is about methods and, I suppose, hats. As you interview and report for this book, piecing together the disparate elements of this odd Administration, how do you reconcile your daily newspaper editor/reporter’s role? What is the threshold for saying to yourself, “Well, this is so newsworthy and important, it must go into The Washington Post. It simply cannot wait for my book to be published.”
And does your agreement for access allow this kind of calculation, or must everything you learn be deferred for your book? Do you find this constraining as a reporter, and do you wonder whether it affects what you are told?
Thanks for spending some time with us today. It is a great privilege.
Has anyone you talked to admitted to what extent paying off the differing Iraqi factions has helped reduce violence? As comapared to the “surge” of troops.
Teddy:
That is a great question.
Thanks for doing this, and congratulations on your book. One question I have regarding the events of late 2006 has to do with a proposal that surfaced that essentially would have the U.S. tilt toward and unleash the Shiites – basically, taking sides in the civil war and letting the Shiites calm Iraq down by slaughtering the Sunnis. One report in the Washington Post surprisingly attributed this notion to Philip Zelikow at State. However, other reports more plausibly attributed it to the Vice President’s Office – which has shown a little-noticed preference for SIIC in particular (some say because they speak good English). That was made more plausible for me when the idea attributed to Zelikow was embraced by the Wall Street Journal editorial page, the closest thing to the official organ of the OVP. Does your book have anything on this particular dimension of the debate?
Your writing follows the trajectory of Bush’s job approval ratings rather than the facts. The same bad decisions that you lauded Bush for in celebratory fashion in your first books you finally decry and second guess in your final ones.
I remember too how you dismissed the outing of the CIA agent Valerie Plame. On one of the cable networks you went so far as to say that you had in your pocket a classified assessment by the CIA to the effect that there had been no damage from the outing. But as the CIA had performed no damage evaluation at the time, this cannot be true.
Finally, you are the embodiment of “access journalism”. The Bush Administration has been the most secretive and controlling of information in our history. Yet it gave you access. It did not do so on a whim but with the understanding that you would do little or no questioning of their message or the story that they gave you.
So really why should we trust what you have to say or write?
That’s an excellent question. Over the years, there have been a number of occasions where I’ve had to go back to sources and tell them I felt the information should be published in The Washington Post as soon as possible, and that I didn’t feel I could wait for the book. In these cases, the sources have agreed. The key element here is to make sure that the public is informed in a comprehensive way as soon as possible and definitely before national elections.
For example, the last three Bush books have all come out in election years but have been published before November in each case. Plan of Attack was published in April 2004, State of Denial in September 2006, and The War Within in September 2008.
Mr. Woodward:
Can you identify ANY statements by the Bush administration relating to Iraq that are not (a) lies, (b) motivated by political gain, or (c) both?
Do you, personally, take anything said by members of this administration at face value?
Just to be clear: when you say that “there is always the possibility of abuse. But in this case, at this point, I know of none,” you’re saying that the use of this technology — this weapon — doesn’t violate any international treaties we’ve signed, the laws of war or any U.S. domestic law?
Mr. Woodward: do you believe the actions of the Bush Administration amount to criminal activities? Specifically regarding the
fakereasons for the invasion of Iraq, the incompetent conduct of “war”, the various coverups (e.g. Plame outing), EnergyCompany WelfareBill, and the bankrupting of our Treasury.I have to say bob, you’ve gone back and forth between villain and hero here at the lake but I am certainly happy with this publication, that’s for sure
I would like to know your take on the following Bob;
does the president think he is in charge or does he acknowledge cheney is the decision maker in this administration
does he hold cheney to account for any of the mistakes that have been made in his name?
does the president really understand “team b” was nothing but a propaganda tool from cheney?
did bush actually believe the garbage that was made up about Iraq or did he have full knowledge that the real cia and Richard clarke was correct, there was no threat from Iraq?
Question: Has anyone you talked to admitted to what extent paying off the differing Iraqi factions has helped reduce violence? As comapared to the “surge” of troops.
My answer: The generals and others in Iraq have acknowledged that the so-called “Sunni Awakening” involves paying perhaps tens of thousands of Sunnis who may have been part of the insurgency or associated with it. This effort, which began before the 2007 surge, clearly has played a giant role in lessening violence in Iraq.
The “Reply” button is at the end of each commenter’s question, not above their name and comment number. Hope that helps.
Thank you for answering.
I’m glad you pointed that out. *g*
Welcome to the Lake, Mr. Woodward. One of the striking things about the book is the gap you document between what the administration — especially the President — is saying publicly about the war and what they’re saying behind closed doors.
Isn’t willfully misleading the public about a war, whatever the motive, more damaging to the democracy than the misinformation of the Watergate era? And what should be done about it?
http://www.slate.com/id/2200292/?GT1=38001
Question:
Mr. Woodward:
Can you identify ANY statements by the Bush administration relating to Iraq that are not (a) lies, (b) motivated by political gain, or (c) both?
Do you, personally, take anything said by members of this administration at face value?
My answer: Some of the public statements have been factual, but one of the points I make in the book repeatedly is the failure to tell the truth. The Bush administration never really found a way to speak carefully but accurately about the progress of the war. When you look at the record, for years, going back to 2003, there has been too much sugarcoating. I have always felt that presidents are strongest when they are the voice of realism. The failure to make realistic and truthful public assessments has, in my view, contributed significantly to the president’s low approval ratings.
When the Iraq war was not going well, the president and his team could probably have rallied public support by stating the truth.
Excellent question, BT.
Considering that Scooter Libby’s trial happened during the period covered by your book, did you uncover any new information regarding the CIA leak investigation in reporting for your book? Did you report on Patrick Fitzgerald’s confirmation that Valerie Plame Wilson was indeed a covert official of the CIA who, as a “covert agent” as defined by the Intelligence Identities Protection Act, was protected by that act from the blowing of her cover?
Mr. Woodward, thank you for joining us.
I find your answer to Mr. Greenwald incomplete. He asks:
You respond:
But the matter of abuse of a technique elides the fundamental legality of a technique. Why the elision?
If techniques are used as designed and intended but not clearly legal, or if there is lack of review of the legality of such techniques, is this not in itself newsworthy?
Earlier today, Tony Fratto admitted they’ been working on the economic bail-out plan for months. I noted in a post it reminded me of your book–the way the Administration recognized the terrible condition of the war, without admitting it publicly.
Do you think Administration did the same thing again, refusing to level about just how bad the economy was, until a lot more damage had been done?
Emptywheel’s discussion of Cheney reflects my own bafflement. I read your book wondering, “Where is Fourthbranch?” And then when the chapter appeared at the end that was largely, well, hagiographic, I had to wonder: Is further access for the next and final book dependent upon Cheney’s (and Addington’s) goodwill?
Finally, do you think General Keane will ever face sanctions within the military for his clear violation of the chain of command, and do you think the military will ever forgive Bush and, especially, Cheney for allowing and encouraging it?
It is good to see you here on FDL and I am interested to learn if you will be covering the Obama/McCain presidential debates. I assume you have met both of these candidates.
Question: Isn’t willfully misleading the public about a war, whatever the motive, more damaging to the democracy than the misinformation of the Watergate era? And what should be done about it?
My answer: First, Watergate was about proven criminal activity going all the way to President Nixon. The question of misleading public statements is a critical one. I’m trying to sort out what was going on behind the scenes and classified and kept from the public. This is an effort to achieve contemporaneous accountability for the administration in power.
It’s up to the American political system to decide what or what not to do.
Gentle reminder to stay on topic in book salon, thank you.
Thanks for being here, Mr. Woodward.
Question: Do you agree with John Dean that this administration is worse than Watergate?
Mr Woodward, you and Mr Bernstein did your Watergate reporting as outsiders from the corridors of power. This book and your other recent books have been written and reported from inside the corridors of power.
What do you gain from being inside?
And what do you lose from being inside?
Is the trade-off worth it?
Obviously, you must be deferential to get inside the Belly of the Beast. But there are lot of valuable insights you report that probably need a further narrative. This is priceless actually (p.8). I think I am feeling it too!
“Hadley was ever present. [The joke was] the only time President Bush was alone was when he went to the washroom, and even then Hadley would be waiting outside with a fresh towel”
Hadley on his very very close relationship with Kommander Guy: “If I feel it he feels it. If he feels it I feel it.”
Bush response to this: “Yes”.
Hadley: “I’m watching him all the time.”
Bush: “I’m watching him watch me all the time.”
Question:
Emptywheel’s discussion of Cheney reflects my own bafflement. I read your book wondering, “Where is Fourthbranch?” And then when the chapter appeared at the end that was largely, well, hagiographic, I had to wonder: Is further access for the next and final book dependent upon Cheney’s (and Addington’s) goodwill?
Finally, do you think General Keane will ever face sanctions within the military for his clear violation of the chain of command, and do you think the military will ever forgive Bush and, especially, Cheney for allowing and encouraging it?
My answer: It is pretty clear from all my reporting that Cheney is a powerful influence in the administration. But the idea that he’s really running things and making a lot of the key decisions is not accurate. Bart Gellman’s book “Angler” describes the extraordinary role of Cheney, but Gellman also makes the point that President Bush makes the final decisions.
On your question about General Keane: He is a retired general and was operating with the approval of General Petraeus and President Bush. It was President Bush who went around the chain of command. Keane, as a member of the Defense Policy Board, was operating as a citizen-adviser.
I wondered if there was some overlap in terms of The War Within and Barton Gellman’s Angler reporting and book. Remembering back to the Libby trial and the lead-up in the investigation, how much overlap there appeared to be between Bob’s reporting and that of both Gellman and Walter Pincus’ sourcing within the intel community.
Bob, how do you deal with overlapping reporting like that at the Washington Post and in your books? Given the enormous overlap in terms of power and circles of influence among the Beltway crowd — especially the interlocking secrecy of the Bush and Cheney inner circles within the Administration itself? That has to be a huge juggling act at the paper as well as between reporters and their sources, and I’m curious to know how any balance is struck, if any?
What successes there have been in uncovering terrorist plots, say like the Millennium bomber or the capture of KSM were the result of very standard techniques: asking questions, paying informants, etc. So while warrantless wiretapping, data mining, and various kinds of aerial surveillance have become the mantra of this Administration’s GWOT, they have shown no or few results. So I would view assertions of a spiffy new super sophisticated, super sexy gizmo or program to be largely hokum. The fact is that both al Qaeda and the Taliban are doing very well in Pakistan as the recent bombing at the Mariott showed. In Afghanistan, the Taliban has increased the land it contests with the Karzai’s government so here again the new super duper anti-terror thingy has had, let me see, no effect.
As I suggest in the post, one of the big revelations of this book was how involved Hadley was at steering the reviews toward a surge.
Can you comment on whether the way Bush works has changed from the time when Condi was NSA and since Hadley has been? Has the decision-making process changed–and how so?
Mr. Woodward, a great honor to have you here.
Question:
Mr Woodward, you and Mr Bernstein did your Watergate reporting as outsiders from the corridors of power. This book and your other recent books have been written and reported from inside the corridors of power.
What do you gain from being inside?
And what do you lose from being inside?
Is the trade-off worth it?
My answer: As is now known, some of our sources operated at a high level within the corridors of power, including the deputy director of the FBI. In the Watergate reporting, we used sources at all levels. It is the same for all of my books on Bush. Some of the best information came from low-level sources. The approach is the same: Get as much verifiable information from as many levels of the government as possible.
Question: Obviously, you must be deferential to get inside the Belly of the Beast. But there are lot of valuable insights you report that probably need a further narrative. This is priceless actually (p.8). I think I am feeling it too!
“Hadley was ever present. [The joke was] the only time President Bush was alone was when he went to the washroom, and even then Hadley would be waiting outside with a fresh towel”
Hadley on his very very close relationship with Kommander Guy: “If I feel it he feels it. If he feels it I feel it.”
Bush response to this: “Yes”.
Hadley: “I’m watching him all the time.”
Bush: “I’m watching him watch me all the time.”
My answer: The only deference is to assure everyone that I will try to present all points of view and write as comprehensive a narrative as possible.
Re; “Just to be clear: when you say that “there is always the possibility of abuse. But in this case, at this point, I know of none,” you’re saying that the use of this technology — this weapon — doesn’t violate any international treaties we’ve signed, the laws of war or any U.S. domestic law?”
Mr. Woodward’s answer supports my suspicion that the technology has to do with information gathering as opposed to a weapon inflicting direct harm. I’m thinking it’s something akin to having software/digital analysis capacity (a la NSA) to digest a massive amount of street level data (or recordings to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Maybe Mr. Woodward can clarify.
Question: As I suggest in the post, one of the big revelations of this book was how involved Hadley was at steering the reviews toward a surge.
Can you comment on whether the way Bush works has changed from the time when Condi was NSA and since Hadley has been? Has the decision-making process changed–and how so?
My answer: When I interviewed President Bush four months ago, he repeatedly said that Hadley was “driving” a lot of the effort to review the Iraq war strategy in 2006. Clearly, Hadley had an extraordinary role, which is outlined in detail, step by step, in the book.
Oh good, I got back from court in time, I was afraid I woud miss this thread.
Mr. Woodward:
On page 28 of yur book you have a statement which I think reflects the underlying weakness in the entirety of the Bush?Cheney administration.
The Office of Legal Counsel experienced the same deriliction of duty with John Yoo. The Office of the Attorney General, likewise with Alberto Gonzales. And Mike Chertoff. And the list goes on and on
BY surrounding himself with cheerleaders, yes-men and toadies–even if they were otherwidse very intelligent and well educated toadies, the Bush/Cheney administration robbed itself of the insights that come from hearing diverse opinions.
As you say
.
This in a nutshell sums up the central cause of failure in this white house.
I don’t buy the “President Bush makes the final decisions” argument. It may have been laid out that way for you, but I remember the same argument being made about Ronald Reagan, who was presented with a one-page summary of any issue and a box to check at the bottom of the page. That qualifies as making the final decision, too.
Cheney speaks privately, and last, with this President, his views and advice unchallenged by others in the policy & politics arenas. Gellman’s book makes clear that the “others” who are permitted to influence the debate are largely Cheney loyalists, throughout the Executive Branch.
So, I’m going to ask my question another way: Was it Cheney or Bush who sponsored Keane’s return to Iraq after the JCS barred his travel there?
Right. That was the premise of my question.
I’m curious how Hadley’s central involvement here differs from the management style that Condi used as National Security Advisor.
Condi never appeared to drive policy in the way you describe Hadley doing. So who was driving policy at that point?
Get as much verifiable information from as many levels of the government as possible. How many sources do you need to verify?
Question: Earlier today, Tony Fratto admitted they’ been working on the economic bail-out plan for months. I noted in a post it reminded me of your book–the way the Administration recognized the terrible condition of the war, without admitting it publicly.
Do you think Administration did the same thing again, refusing to level about just how bad the economy was, until a lot more damage had been done?
My answer: Clearly, there is a lifetime of reporting for many reporters to go back and take the “back-bearing” to determine when there was some realization that the financial system was in grave jeopardy. It goes back to the old question that was asked about President Nixon during Watergate: “What did (fill in the blank) know? And when did he know it?”
That very well might be. I think Mr. Woodward has been pretty clear that he isn’t going to tell us what he’s learned.
But if you’re right, it’s all the more reason to know. If the Bush administration has developed some massively more powerful tracking and surveillance technology, that’s something American citizens would want to know and should know, given how the NSA apparatus has now been turned inward.
Mr. Woodward, do you appreciate that your Watergate work endeared you to the common citizen while your recent tomes (and public commentary) have erased much of the good will you once maintained?
But as all these points of view come from within the Administration, only one side is ever really given, the Administration’s.
Question: I don’t buy the “President Bush makes the final decisions” argument. It may have been laid out that way for you, but I remember the same argument being made about Ronald Reagan, who was presented with a one-page summary of any issue and a box to check at the bottom of the page. That qualifies as making the final decision, too.
Cheney speaks privately, and last, with this President, his views and advice unchallenged by others in the policy & politics arenas. Gellman’s book makes clear that the “others” who are permitted to influence the debate are largely Cheney loyalists, throughout the Executive Branch.
So, I’m going to ask my question another way: Was it Cheney or Bush who sponsored Keane’s return to Iraq after the JCS barred his travel there?
My answer: As the book makes clear, both President Bush and Vice President Cheney sent notes to Secretary of Defense Gates requesting that retired General Keane be allowed back in Iraq to advise General Petraeus.
Mr. Woodward, applying the Watergate standard you describe above for newsworthiness. . .
. . .is it then the case that, should your inquiries uncover activities that may very well be criminal in nature, that is to say, they could violate the law, what is your standard for reporting them?
In the case of Watergate, the break-in itself was clearly illegal, though there was dispute about how illegal it would be for the President or other to engage in what would have to be proven to be a conspiracy – that’s another crime. So, when you reported on that, you were reporting on a crime that had not yet been established in the courts or the public record.
Mr. Greenwald’s question gets to a similar challenge for a reporter: if methods or activities undertaken by the U. S. government may indeed violate either domestic or international laws, what standard do you apply to determine whether or not to investigate and or report on these activities as potential crimes in their own right, as you did in the Watergate case?
Has there been any degradation of America’s relationship with the Green Zone Government in Iraq since your revelation that our country monitors their puppet prime minister so closely? You seemed to indicate in early interviews that he would be learning this as if it were new, and yet I’ve not seen the outrage.
Perhaps the monitoring was, in fact, not new to everyone in the Green Zone Government?
We need the facts to make such a decision, facts from people like you.
Bob:
Do you think, with what you know, that an attack on Iran is likely or unlikely in the waning months of the Administration?
I don’t either, seems like GWB is a figurehead, is he Mr. Woodward?
But then, skillfully and brazenly are not mutually exclusive.
My question, Mr. Woodward, deals with how you feel that your role as a historian differs from your role as an investigative journalist in real time. How do you balance the deeper insight you can provide in long-form explorations with the importance of giving the public accurate information when our leaders are making life and death decisions for us?
Question:
Get as much verifiable information from as many levels of the government as possible. How many sources do you need to verify?
reply
My answer: In many cases, it is possible to get documentary evidence, including memos, handwritten contemporaneous notes or other unofficial verification. You always look for sources who do not have a political interest in spinning events one way or another. At the same time, you want to present all points of view.
For example, on the critical question of how many brigades to send to Iraq for a surge, Steve Hadley, the national security adviser, told me it came out of his discussion with General Pete Pace, then chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in 2006. The president then told me, “Okay, I don’t know this. I’m not in these meetings, you’ll be happy to hear. Because I got other things to do.” The president’s own words answer critical questions about his level of involvement. Their account is backed up by numerous notes and background interviews with first-hand sources.
Your deposition in the CIA Leak case–revealing that Scooter Libby had leaked you contents of the NIE long before the record shows he got permission from the President to leak whatever it was he leaked to Judy Miller–made it clear that Libby’s claim to have been ordered to leak the NIE to her was just a cover story. (A juror told me this was apparent even to them, though it wasn’t what they were asked to judge.)
In other words, your testimony–reluctant and belated though it was–contributes to a strong case that VP Cheney ordered Libby to leak Plame’s identity.
Has your relationship with the OVP changed since you testified?
My ex husband breeds dogs for show. There has been technology around for several years whereby you can implant a really teensy “lo-jack” chip under the dog’s skin in case a valuable animal is ever dog napped.
Would this be the reason that the US engaged in the seemingly insane “catch and release” program you describe circa pages 34-35?
I understand your point about needing all levels of government and information for verification but let me try to re-phrase.
As an outsider, even if you had sources who were insiders, you were not dealing with these people on a social basis.
As an insider, you are dealing with the folks you are covering and using as sources on a social basis.
What changes in how you present the information or go after the information in the two areas?
Question: My question, Mr. Woodward, deals with how you feel that your role as a historian differs from your role as an investigative journalist in real time. How do you balance the deeper insight you can provide in long-form explorations with the importance of giving the public accurate information when our leaders are making life and death decisions for us?
My answer: I am trying to provide a contemporaneous account of what really happened as best I can tell. Too often, the history of a secretive White House is disclosed years or even decades after the administration was in power. This is all reporting, and in the end particularly some of the documents and detailed accounts of meetings and the words of the president and others may be of use to historians. If the newspaper is the first draft of history, this is an effort at the second draft. But I know it is not the final draft.
I believe bush actually does make the “final decision” but that he is easily manipulated…bush is the president, he has to make the “final” decision even if he isn’t the person that finalized the “final” decision
Thank you very much for this discussion. I enjoyed it. I’m sorry time did not permit me to answer all your questions.
Sincerely, Bob Woodward
Mr. Woodward,
I’ve always wondered if Bush tried to order an attack on Iran back when the British sailors were captured but got the idea nixed by top level brass. Have you come across anything you can share that might address whether that could have happened?
I took Bush’s answer to be a reference to LBJ’s deep involvement in choosing bombing targets and troop movements during the Vietnam War — that you (and by extension, your readers) would be happy to know that Bush was not deeply involved in prosecuting the war on a detailed level. Yet Bush kept a photo array of terrorists killed in his desk drawer, and he showed Saddam’s gun to visitors. He also grilled Casey about numbers of enemy KIA, as your reporting in this book revealed.
Would you say Bush has learned to portray his involvement in the management of the Iraq in a more positive light as your reporting, and this interminable war, have proceeded?
I would point out that, as mentioned above, the omission of Cheney illustrates the weakness of the Woodward approach. He can only tell us the story (or stories) that those in the White House tell him. So if they spin and massage the facts or just leave large chunk of what happened out of their narrative, that is what we get as well. There are no “Hey, wait a second. What about Cheney?” moments because that is not part of the story that the President’s Office was telling. So for Woodward it all becomes about Bush when in fact it wasn’t. This is I think key to understand. Woodward is assembling a narrative based on other people’s narratives. This is very different from establishing a chronology and history based on facts and actual documentation. Facts can be used to adorn a narrative but they just aren’t necessary to it.
Bob, Thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending time with us.
Marcy, Thank you for Hosting this great Book Salon.
Everyone, if you haven’t bought the book yet, there is a link above.
Thanks all,
A) Is there never any discussion in the administration, perhaps in connection with The Surge if nothing else, about the repatriation of the million plus or so refugees created by the invasion and in particular by our sitting out the ethnic cleansing until Sadr was done?
B) When you are both a journalist and writing on a book, as you have been throughout the Bush presidency, how do you make the decisions as to what stories to keep as juice for your book and what to contemporaneously report?
It certainly seems that the slew of recent books by journalists that finally reveal some interesting information that would certainly have been helpful to have had in the public discourse much earlier than their book release dates.
Thank you for joining us–it was a very interesting book salon.
Excellent book, certainly worth getting at the library or borrowing from a friend if you haven’t read it yet.
Thanks for the answer. I suggest you carry a digital camera. Then you could get embarassing videos of the Bushes and post them on YouTube.
Kommander Guy does not remember who ordered the Iraki army demobilized. Cheney turned him down when asked to oversee Hurricane Katrina relief. Who made postwar Irak plans, when Rumsfeld promised to fire anyone who made postwar Irak plans. KG goes to the G8 Summit, and helps solve the Mideast issues by roasting a pig. And Dumb Doug Feith has his Office of False Flag Ops into everything.
So who is running the government?
I almost thought Mr. Woodward had written that response. Then, I saw your name. It seems Mr. Woodward will not admit that Dubya is manipulated by Cheney or others.
It’s not like you to make understatements Marcy!
Fascinating. I would say, for what was said and what wasn’t.
a pleasure having you here!
Thank you for being here, Mr. Woodward. I really appreciate you taking the time to answer questions.
Cordial as we believe ourselves to be, Mr. Wooodward may have felt like he was being pelted with tomatoes. Lots of good unanswered questions. Iran?
Strike my B) – I see the answer given to a similar question @ 21 above.
See my 31
Aloha, Mr Woodward! Mahalo for taking the time to be here!
Did you see the WH Response to your book?
One thing that struck me as odd was they didn’t attack the facts, but, rather the messenger? What was your thoughts on their response?
mad mad props to (((Bev)))
I missed it in real time but am so enjoying reading everyone’s questions and comments
proud to call myself a firedog !
I hope the “technology” is not some more “efficient” way to kill Iraqis. We’ve seen the effects of what Bush I and II called “precision bombing.” And by the way, why does the number of Iraqi casualties vary so wildly? Why is it so hard to keep an accurate count?
Wow, we are treating the Iraqis like lo-jacked dogs.
Folks were and are fairly polite but did ask some pointed questions which told him that he was not dining at David Broder’s or Karl Rove’s for quail wings…
Arrgh, Once again I’m caught living in the wrong time zone…! 8-(
Missed him by that much. (In my best Maxwell Smart voice).
Yes, thanks for being with us and answering some questions.
Nice to have you here at the Lake, come back!
You and I both! ;-)
Good one! LOL
Borrow from a friend yes.
I can see the value in having a detailed account of how decisions which affect us are made. I’m interested in how you address the conflict when, as has happened a few times with this White House, you have privileged information that the first draft is incorrect.
Considering the timing of this, I wondered if perhaps Bush was trying to maintain deniability in some fashion because of the impending Baker Hamilton proposal. Why else would he try to appear so detached to the point of being negligent in his capacity as commander in chief?
Scarecrow upstairs on the cost of the Bailout
You could be right there. I would think Cheney wouldn’t be able to refrain from *cough* input, when it comes to Iraq war “policy,” (if you can call it policy). An assemblage of narratives is an assemblage of narratives. I like when interviews are presented as such, and broken into chapters.
Re where was Jeff Gannon? Now that Woodward is gone I will tell you there was no need of him with Woodward in the room. Woodward represents for me all that I detest in the media, the Beltway purveyor of Conventional Wisdoms, the journalist who trades access for insight, the one who thinks reporting goes no further than He said/She said, whose conclusions if any are platitudinous, a media star for our times, the Age of Stupid, who even at this late date has still not tumbled to the fact that Bush, the champion of incompetence, criminality, and cronyism is the worst President in our history. Disastrous wars, a disastrous economy, a disaster for our rights and Constitution and Woodward manages to miss it all. Like I said, a reporter for our times.
Yes, I would not wish to give him that idea.
Thank you for coming to the Lake Mr. Woodward and congratulations to Bev!
I missed it in real time but I want to thank Mr. Woodward for participating. It at least gives me a glimmer of hope that we the people can hold our government responsible.
Did the book really disregard Cheney as a crucial player in all this? I thought the War was his “baby.”
And WTF?
An excellent summation, Hugh. I was going to add that Mr. Woodward’s self-important demeanor is hard to ignore, but you covered that with media star. To paraphrase his words – he gives you the facts and you sort it out.
You hit him hard with your first question. That was awesome.
YES! nice work Bev. and thanks Marcy.
@109 I am sorry but the combination of cowboy swaggering and bragging of technology seems like a put on to hypnotise the rubes. And if the technology is supposed to be killer or yet another violation of the basic rights of humanity, I hope that technology comes off like a limp d*ck. It’s not like the Bush administration and previous adminisitrations haven’t spent enough tax payer’s money on what amounts to “toys for boys” that get shoved aside when the batteries wear out so to speak.
Mr. Woodward
You usually are the first to come up with all the big scoops on mis-steps by the Bush Administration. I’m curious how you missed the one reported in another book about the White House knowing there was no WMD before the war and later ordering the CIA to fabricate a letter that was planed in the media which tied Iraq to Al Qaeda.
Great thread from Bev and Marcy, thanks.
After reading this, I feel that Bob knows that access is everything.
I hope President Obama tells him to go to the back of the line.
Gee. Guess he had an appointment at 1PM.
This says all you need to know about Bob Woodward:
“It’s up to the American political system to decide what or what not to do.”
Yeah. Let the system bury its own skeletons and fuck the people.