The devil’s hit an iceberg: I find myself in agreement with David Broder.
Looking back at the performance of the two men during their primary debates, the proposition that they are evenly matched looks quite plausible.
We’ve been waiting with great anticipation for Barack Obama to chew up Grampa Abe Simpson in Friday night’s first matchup. I don’t think it’s to be.
Here’s why. Broder again (I know, I know — revoke my prog-blog-credential, but still….):
Obama did not win the Democratic nomination by dominating the debates. In the early ones, when the stage was full, he lacked the verbal or physical tools to stand out from the crowd. More often than not, it was Hillary Clinton or John Edwards who made the strongest impression on the cameras and the audience. And when Clinton and Obama met one on one, she won most of the confrontations and the subsequent primaries.
I came away from every spring head-to-head thinking, "Well, he did better that time." There’s no question that Obama improved as a debater — up against Hillary Clinton, how could he not get better? Is there a politician with a better grasp of the facts, details, and pocket lint of any issue than Hillary Clinton? Say what you will about how she ran her presidential campaign, but the woman Knows. Her. Stuff.
That’s not the same challenge John McCain presents; the challenge he presents is different. But John McCain can be formidable. And we shouldn’t forget it.
John McCain’s been a part of the World’s Greatest Deliberative Body for more than two decades. He’s visited more countries than there are countries anymore. He’s met more foreign leaders than Richard Nixon did. He vividly recalls Czechoslovakia. He never confuses Shia and Sunni, especially when his buddy Joe Lieberman is nearby.
No, no — stop. This week can’t be about mocking John McCain’s likely performance. We’ll have next week (and the rest of the campaign) to lambaste his actual performance, but only if we manage our own expectations this week. And help others manage theirs.
It’s time to change our anticipation of this debate from eagerness to dread. We need to stop saying, "Just wait until the first debate!" to all our friends who haven’t really paid attention.
This week, when Americans’ attention turns to the presidential election — many of them for the very first time, if you can imagine! — it’s our job to ensure that people don’t expect too much from our guy.
Let people know you’re worried:
"Gosh, Barack didn’t do so well in the debates I watched last year in the Democratic primary, I can’t imagine he’ll do very well against McCain…."
Be sure people know McCain knows his stuff:
"McCain’s been in the Senate since Ronald Reagan was President! Obama can’t possibly know more than he does."
Let people know McCain’s prepared for this his whole life:
"John McCain was in presidential debates eight years ago — he knows what he’s doing. And he won his party’s nomination this year in the debates."
Remind everyone who Obama lost to in earlier debates:
"Hillary Clinton probably beat Barack in every one-on-one debate, and John McCain’s been debating in the Senate a lot longer than she has."
Explain how Obama’s style doesn’t really fit well into a debate format:
"He thinks on his feet, and explores ideas as he debates. But McCain has mastered his policies and views, and is very certain after a long time in public life, especially in foreign policy."
Did you watch the Saddleback Church & Store™ forum? Everyone thought Pastor Rick produced a clear winner:
"The only time they’ve been on the same stage to talk about the campaign, Obama didn’t do very well."
Let people know this debate is in McCain’s wheelhouse:
"McCain’s speciality is foreign policy. Obama will do better in the other debates, but McCain will win this one."
That’s our simple personal campaign talking point for this week, firepups. You are likely the wise one in your circle, especially about what to expect from Friday’s candidates’ debate. (Practice in front of a mirror to keep a straight face, if you must.) But — go forth and disseminate this idea everywhere you gather around the water cooler, in every doctors’ office waiting room, on all the barstools you find your butt parked, in every blog you comment on, at every supermarket line you wait in: John McCain will win this debate.
There will be plenty of time to take the lads’ advice in the song: "Laugh about it — shout about it."
But next week.
{YouTube of Simon & Garfunkel at The Concert in Central Park, from ronakosu}



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Tedddy!!!!!!!!!!!!!
poor poor barack
I was going to
saywrite that exact thing. What is Teddy saying???Aloha, Teddy!
I just don’t know how poor Barack can possibly stand up before the force of nature that is John McCain. He was a POW you know.
I know! He’s going up a veteran debater and campaigner — how can we expect him to come close to McCain?
McCain will ramble. Obama should win.
Teddy do you think the free flowing format is to Obama’s favor, and could benefit him by catching McGramps off guard or to trip his temper?
Remember those skits Al Franken did on his last year on SNL — Lowered Expectations? That’s what I’m talkin’ about.
Gramps can’t remember what day it is, how many houses he has, what kind of cars he owns or how he voted a week ago.
Why would anyone think Obama won’t chew him up and spit him out? With ease?
And the guy owns twelve vehicles! Three are real
beautsgems.How about saying “McCain’s older than dirt – he MUST
know something?”
Obama handled the 60 Minutes question very well tonight. Essentially, he was asked, “John McCain says his POW experience formed him. What formed your character?”
We need to understand that Friday night is a stacked deck on the opposing team’s court. A draw will be a win for us, and I’m not sure we’ll even get that.
People need to hear how badly we think our guy will do. Seriously, spread the word.
shhhhh
The Broderite Villagers will still say he won the debates. He was a POW you know.
Where the bar is set will help to define the perception of the performance for each of the participants.
Why does this remind me of the McSame advisor, pre-DNC Convention, say unequivocally, that Obama expects a 15 point post-convention bounce…?
well, he’ll win then- being a POW and all.
For all the reasons I listed, every one of which is valid.
If you want Obama to win the presidency, why would you handicap him with high expectations going into the first debate? There’s no reason to think McCain will do poorly — he did well in all his GOP debates, and won the nomination in a crowded field. None of those guys were slackers at debate, despite being wackos.
I want pre-debate drug tests.
It’s going to be a crowd that loves Obama. He will have the people with him.
Obama did not win the Democratic nomination by dominating the debates. In the early ones, when the stage was full, he lacked the verbal or physical tools to stand out from the crowd. More often than not, it was Hillary Clinton or John Edwards who made the strongest impression on the cameras and the audience. And when Clinton and Obama met one on one, she won most of the confrontations and the subsequent primaries.
=================
not imo
yeh- high bar for Obama of course, low to no bar for gramps.
He was a POW ya know.
I want pre-debate earphone inspections.
So what you’re saying is, that McGramps has the advantage in this style so he can go on and on and on about his command of the issues. Thanks.
Will McSame’s Alzheimer’s meds show up…? ;-)
McDummy is comming apart at the seams…he is cognitively impaired ..ie Spain…imo he will meltdown
heheheehehehehehee
IOKIYAAPOW
Y’know, you don’t have to wait for a debate to pee in a cup, or did you mean for the candidates?
too true”g”
I won’t even ask what you are looking for.
oh boy the run out the clock strategy shrubula employed
I’d say somebody should pat McCain down for suspicious bulges but let’s face it, he has lots of bulges and they’re all pretty suspicious.
Digg it!
I want to make sure I have all of my facts straight before I go off spreading unfounded rumors. I have heard it whispered that McCain was a POW. Is that true?
Okay, off to bed now. Be excellent to each other.
lol
Good Evening Teddy and Firedogs,
prior to the Paulson bomb I though it important we adjust our expectations.
the Obama campaign had done a good job in stagecrafting and pacing the Debates – with the final one (and the most important gotv) was to be about The Economy – I think up until this week end BO was gonna withhold some firepower and then lay waste to his opponent’s candidacy on that final evening
And if McCain doesn’t melt down, after you’ve told everyone he will — how will you answer that? I think it’s better to set the bar for McCain very high (he will do very well) and set the bar for Obama very low (this is not his strength).
Then, when it does turn out differently, people will be pleasantly surprised. I’d rather have folks say to me on Saturday morning, “Hey, you were wrong, Obama did great!” thereby convincing themselves than have people say to me “Ha, ha, McCain didn’t crash and burn, so he won!”
See?
Night, EDP.
nitey nite,i might turn off this puter too
Night EDP.
In his interview on 60 minutes tonight McCrazy was asked where he grew up and where he spent the most time and that fucker actually had the balls to say Vietnam when he was a POW. I honestly can’t stand even looking at that son of a bitch. It burns my eyes.
McCain blew his Repub opposition away at their debates.
Now that’s not a real *strong* predictor, given the collective IQ he was up against.
But he says stuff in short, sound-bite bursts – stupid stuff, yeah, but then so did Georgie. And while every sentient person in the country knew that John Kerry kicked the shit outta Georgie, the R base just loved him all the more….
if McDummy doesnt have his index cards ,he will be lost,he will be anyway ,ive been watching him wax poetic about fishies on oil rigs
As did the Villagers, who are the only audience that really matters, since they feed the media narrative.
Y’know, you don’t have to wait for a debate to pee in a cup, or did you mean for the candidates?
ha – if I gave myself a drug test, I might have to fire me.
again.
yup…spin doctors …rawk
Really? I heard Mittens won all the debates. I confess I didn’t watch 5 seconds of any of them.
I’d like Obama to question McC’s honor. That’s what I think will set him off. Unless the drugs have him in too mellow a state.
Whoa, I just had a thought. Do you think that’s why he’s so confused? Too many drugs to keep the temper in check?
I think Obama will do well against McCain in the debate on Friday. McCain has absolutely very little ability to retain the facts and issues that he will need in a debate. If the questions are substantive, McCain will be relying on his broad talking points and will not be able to respond with any specificity.
poor pathetic pustule
Come to think of it, Obama should make sure that he checks McCain for any earpieces like Bush wore in his debate.
He can always read his cheat cards. He doesn’t go anywhere without them so I doubt he would agree to a debate without cheat cards.
I thought Mitt and Huck did the best in the debates. McC is so strident and cranky. He was much better then, however, than he will be now. He seems to have gone down hill a lot since then. I can’t imagine him not getting very confused.
oh yah,its a delicate balance,stimulants make him remember,but angry,depressants make him affable ,but stooopit
no bullshit. i honestly think McCain does well in these things. he has a very good sense of what buttons to push and will say what he wants to say no mater what. he did well at the columbia forum on 9/11.
honorable,no???POS
That is so he does not forget his name.
McCain is more confused than usual because folks keep talking about economics and he hasn’t had to pay for anything in the past 30 years.
it really ALL DEPENDS on the questions…imo
Twain, maybe we should moon the debates, although I confess I’m a little concerned about cracking my TV.
it might depend on the DEPENDS too
I can’t imagine him not getting very confused.
aha! You’ve begged the proper question:
Who is moderating the debate(s)?
(’cause I think McCrazy will do fine – *unless* there are follow-up questions)
Ding!
I don’t have any confidence in Lehrer OR the other moderators.
I’ll tell you a secret: (I also think Obama will do well.)
But the point of my post is to discuss how we can, as Thought Leaders in our own communities, influence people’s views and expectations this week. Telling everyone I know that I think Obama will blow McCain away doesn’t help Obama. Telling everyone I know that I think McCain has a very good chance of showing Obama up on Friday night — now, that’s helpful.
I had hoped people would contribute ideas about what else we might say to folks we know in order to lower expectations about our candidate’s performance. “I think he’ll do well,” while our shared view, isn’t exactly what I was looking for.
Whatever.
Debates like this do not highlight Obama’s strengths. McCain scrapped his way to the top of a substantial roster of candidates, is tough and tenacious, and can present well if he is well prepared, which he will be.
;)
((Teddy))
McShames disdain for Mitt was oozing out of the tv.
If I were advising I would say that laughing at him would be the button
ding!
So, you’re really hoping he’ll get pissed?
ya know i think Bama…is svy enuf to piss the old coote off,which will pull him RIGHT OFF message
McCain will have to be mean and go off topic (successfully) in order to appear semi solid. Obama will have time old difficulty of trying to let reason, common sense and a true desire to promote the general welfare shine through, without being skewered for it.
I wish at least one debate included all candidates.. Barr, McKinney, Nader, Obama and Mccain.
oh yes be DEFERENTIAL to the elder statesman
bwahahahahhaha
Jim Lehre is moderating #1. It is freestyle with each asking. 9 minutes each then 4 – 5 min etc
I’m waiting for gramps to show us his temper.
THAT would go over well on national TV. Maybe Obama can goad him into it.
btw, I was just kidding in my 47.
All clean and sober for almost 2 years now…
McCrazy is going to blow Obama away at the debates, he was a POW you know.
I like Jim Lehrer over, say, Sean Hannity or Charlie Gibson…!
Isn’t it Jim whathisname? I’m not sure I understand the free-flowing style they are planning. I assume there will be questions and a limit on how long each can speak. Don’t know how it works yet.
yes,he is even MORE UN attractive when he snarls
How about “John McCain has been through about 100 Presidential debates…1996, 2000, 2004, 2008. Obamas only been in a handful…so McCain has forgotten and changed more of his answers than Obama has ever had to respond to!”
Or “C’mon…McCain has debated great Republican Presidential candidates like Bob Dole, George Bush, Fred Thompson, Steve Forbes, Pat Buchanan, Pat Robertson, and even Phil Gramm! And Gramm is even advising McCain on the economy! Of course, McCain will run all over Obama!”
palin got a huge crowd today in central FL. Huge. At a retirement community.
she’s takenthey took the “bridge to nowhere” line of of the stump speech.i was just watching some of her with hannity. he’s throwing her softballs and she still gets incoherent sometimes. despite the huge crowd…..
http://tampabay.com/news/polit…..818181.ece
I imagine there will be a few attempts to look genial (”There you go again, heh heh”) and lots of deflections, but mainly I expect him to repeat Strong Words. America, soldiers, valor, freedom, safe, liberty, God, etc. And POW.
methinks so
he TOWERS over pipsueak…Bama should wear platform shoes..”g”
Okay, I’ll try to keep a straight face, but I’m bad at it. Just think of George Lakoff, who thinks Obama needs work.
I just hope Barack has figured out how to push his buttons to get a good temper display. Oh yeah, and will have the gumption to push said buttons.
McCain also has the advantage that he is utterly shameless and willing to say anything, true of not, while Obama tends to stay within hailing distance of the truth.
Congrats. Hard row to hoe, but definitely brings rewards.
Obama, if the Saddleback deal was any indicator will be very professorial and that could be a losing proposition for him. The low-information voter wants sound-bites because that’s what they have been trained to expect…
Sad but true. I hope his “coaches” whomever they may be have been getting him ready to deliver pithy not professorial…
Plus, there is always the question of the officiating … er, moderating … being slanted in McCain’s direction.
Oh, it’s worrisome, alright.
How can Obama possibly be expected to do any better than draw against that much experience?
Just saw a poll today that showed Palin is actually pushing independents/undecideds toward Obama. We should encourage her to spend more time there. 8-)
Typically, (modern) presidential debates tend to favor (relatively) concise answers over thoughtful ones. The best scenario will be if the questions are something the McCain camp really couldn’t anticipate. If he doesn’t have a corresponding stump speech talking point, he is likely to unravel.
Jim Lehrer is doing the first one. Here is a link to the whole schedule and details.
Bama needs to deliver da snark too…imo…a few zingers methinks….think float like a butterfly STING like a bee
i was serious. you know that, right? and Barack really ain’t that hot. Should be good. Let me know how it turns out. I forgot I had signed up for fucking camping with the fucking cubscouts. i wanted to host a debate watching party (you all got that e-mail, right?) and figgered I should let the missus in on it. she reminded me I’m gonna be in a tent somewhere sweating and getting eaten by bugs and with a bunch of snot nosed kids. i do want to see the reaction afterward. who should i tivo? i might do fox.
Oh, DrDick,
Your words to truth…
have you seen this?
One thought pushes fence-sitters to the left: Palin
http://www.tampabay.com/news/p…..818181.ece
I think maybe he should rattle his keys. 8-)
Maybe people are deciding that field dressing a moose is not a qualification for VP although I’m sure some think it’s just wonderful.
McCain has to be called on a lot of wrong assumptions like today on 60 minutes when nobody challenges that “the surge worked.” Challenge that with the right amount of sarcasm and McBush might lose it.
true. he may well talk the approach of telling alot of lies so the other guy has to spend time trying tom refute your bullshit. who’s playing McCain in practice?
Given the lies from McCain and the shallowness and lies from Palin, I recommend that Senator Obama cancel the debates, maybe after the first one, by saying he will no longer dignify the stupidity of the GOPigs by allowing them to appear on the same stage with him.
Besides, there’s some work to be done in Congress to prevent The Great Treasury Robbery of 2008.
Spew Alert!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW5Eqycf4d4
i think he can,he is observant that man…McNasty not so much
too bad that cant get Gov Moosellini
!
Experience would be more valuable if McShame had been right a little more often and if he could remember it
I am sure that there are quite a few here in Montana that would appeal to. Of course we (well the Republicans anyway) elected a garbage woman who was dumber than a box of rocks governor a while back.
Heh, you volunteered…! ;-)
I think you’ve got an excellent point here. An added bonus is that if I use this with all my friends who still defend Bush and the war, I’m not being confrontational with them and it will be easier for them to say Obama did well.
yeah. i posted it too. at 84. never have enough. she got a bigger crowd than anyone says they can remember. but she wasn’t polling as well here as other places. and now she isn’t polling that hot other places.
“Grew Up” has to be taken quite figuratively in this context. McCain was 31 years old when he crashed his plane in North Vietnam. And then apparently he had his epiphany…and became a devoted public servant. Well except for the fact that, once released, he wanted to catch up on sex with just about anything that wore panties and a bra that he could detach. The affairs of the “mature” John McCain caused the breakup of his marriage to his wife of nearly twenty years. And a remarriage to Cindy, who was a campaign intern a score of years younger, who happened to catch his wandering eyes.
There only seems to be one thing that “grew up” when McCain came back from Vietnam…and it wasn’t above the neck.
I think Obama will be able to come up with the right soundbytes and rhetorical flourishes.. and they’ll convey his usual sense of hope. McSame will do the same, with his usual sense of impending violent doom. which means that obama should at least be able to win. I predict that they will both, however, be low on substance and, yes, on clintonesque or gorean wonkishness. and that’s not necessarily a good thing to be low on after the last, content-free 8 years.
I may be wrong of course… and pleasantly surprised.. Obama’s convention speech was certainly rich in secifics, and he may yet follow that up in the debates, but historically that has not been his style.
love you teddy – but i will not be part of anyone’s spin alley.
Well, for 5 1/2 years John McCain didn’t get to salute his little soldier you know.
Are you serious?
Slight edits
if not malignant
thanks.
The second one looks very interesting. Despite the presence of Tom Brokaw, questions from the audience and internet wouldn’t seem to favor McGramps.
Lehrer – obviously I know *who* he is, but I’ve never really watched him. What to expect?
And WHY did the D’s accede to the Palin/McCain ticket’s request/demand that the V.P. debate be very structured, and broken down into smaller, quicker questions, as opposed to a more free-flow format? (dumb fucking move, imo)
Jo Fish upstairs!
Pakistan Flew Resupply Missions for Taliban During Fierce Battle With the US
708!!!!!!
Unfortunately absolutely true. Judy Martz.
Generally speaking, people are much more easily convinced that something is true if they hear themselves say it.
OR
Or maybe I’m an idiot.
your right perception is everything…but McNasty has been afew lbs short of a bushel lately
Off to bed. It’s back to corrupting young minds in the morning.
It’s not spin — it’s setting realistic expectations among our peers. Nothing dishonest, just realistic assessment of our guys’ chances.
(selise)
ok eyes hurt,what will the a m bring?…………………..oy
You’re not an idiot – I just don’t lie very well. Could not say what you mentioned with a straight face.
Well, he’s certainly got the experience! I think he debated Franklin Roosevelt about the New Deal programs, which is why he’s opposed them ever since.
And John knew Teddy Roosevelt and recalled when Zapatero ravaged the Rio Grande!
I was disappointed in Obama’s debate performances during the primaries. I would not call him a great, or even a good, debater. Clinton’s much stronger debating kept me undecided for a long time.
As for the general election debates, I have never seen a Democratic candidate go over as well as I thought he should. I may have judged them to have mopped the floor with their opponents, but the Villagers never seem to agree, and the public conventional wisdom seems to follow Villager judgment on debates more than in other areas of discourse. I seem to recall Bush was judged to have held his own even in the “It’s fuzzy math” debate, when I was so embarrassed for him I could hardly watch.
Obama may just this one time already have the “low expectations” advantage in the media.
Confident liberals who expect McCain to be killed in the debates should check their heads for holes. Debates favor talking points and the GOP is goooood at those.
Obama has the ability and temperament to be one of our greatest Presidents. These traits will not be highlighted by the debates. Obama himself seems to think he will break away as a consequence of the debates. This may be one grave miscalculation the campaign has made.
I remain confident that Obama is our next President.
Agreed. I was thinking that he didn’t answer the question. But your explanation is spot on. He just acts so psycho to me I have zero undersanding how anyone on the planet could vote for him. It makes me think alot about what Bill Mahar says about the average American voter. They are too stupid to vote. You should have to be able to pass a test of basic facts covering various subjects before you can vote. These republic asshole including McCrazy have ruined the country and they are too stupid to realize it.
Maybe. If Biden can simply answer with punchy specifics…Palin will probably sound overcoached. If she answers like she did to the woman who asked her about the specifics of her experience she’ll come off poorly. But she may not be capable of integrating a specific answer bvery well into her bloviating wanderings. I don’t think the interviews with Hannity have shown very much THERE.
Good night firepups. I need to try to get a good start on the week.
Oh man, you’re a Community Organizer, leading Cub Scouts on a camping trip. Lucky you! ;)
Night, TB.
just really, really sensitive issue with me, especially now (yeah, i know, you’re shocked *g*).
all i have going for me in trying to convince conservatives (and i’m talking life changing convincing, not just for one election) is that i’m doing my very best to be as intellectually honest as i possibly can be. i give that up, even for a few weeks and i could loose all the credibility it’s taken me, in some cases, years to build.
g’night, sadly
Nite Betsy. Pain free sleep wishes.
A test is okay with me as long as there’s no math on it. “g”
thanks mommybrain
nite betsy. hope is a good sleep and a good week for you.
Teddy – I couldn’t agree with you more!
In the 2004 debates, when Kerry mentioned ‘international consent,’ Bush exploded in a very boisterous shout-down, which appeared to rock Kerry.
It was ridiculously testosterony, but it scored points with the severely sloped forehead/over-hanging brow Alpha-male crowd.
That kind of ‘Ram’s Head Charge’ is just the kind of thing McSame will be looking to do to Obama on Friday – he’ll be lying in wait for his opening.
We should anticipate ‘intimidation’ being part of McCain’s plan and be ready – ready with a smooth, but painfully obvious, reversal that causes the Prideful One to tap-out.
The most obvious ‘charges’ could come from -
- the ‘Success’ of the Surge
- Can’t leave Iraq to Al Qaeda
- Torture under the ‘Worst Case Scenario – WMD Terrorism’
- Gitmo and Habeus
- Oil Lobbyists on his Campaign
- Russia started the War in Georgia
- what is the definition of ‘winning’ in Iraq?
By taking McCain’s irrationality seriously, all of US and Obama, too, can be prepared for whatever lunge he makes.
Then the discussion needs to meander onto new and different things than they’ve discussed in the last couple of years. Lord knows what that might be, but that would be where McCain’s shallowness might become obvious.
with that in mind..how about raising expectations for John Mccain instead?..I dont see him doing as poorly as you seem to, and maybe I am not alone. I LIKE the fact that he seems to think about his answers..we do not need to dumb down the discourse ..and maybe I misread your point in this , but we need to stop feeding the idea that ‘bumper sticker statements are ‘intelligent’…the world’s future should not possibly hang in someone answering anything with the idea of a Jeopardy theme tune running.
I predict that at least some of Lehrer’s questions will deal with international matters not so much the focus of most soundbytes. Future of the UN, Future of NATO, Conceptualization of relations with China, How to deal with N. Korea, Nuclear Proliferation, Latin American Relations — the BBC is just doing a long form story about the drug wars in Mexico — could be an interesting question. I anticipate an Africa Question. And yes, I expect a question on International Finance in light of the recent melt-down. We might see a question about organization of US Intelligence assets, or whether the State Department should regain control over US foreign policy from DoD.
I think the challenge for Obama is to be clear and display mastery of various subjects, but not to provide any ammunition for those whose votes can be swayed by the term “Uppity” whether combined with the N word or not. I keep looking at that spread of “undecideds” “won’t say” maybe Bob Barr voters — and those are really the target audience, not us. If the outcome is that people see competence, and feel a sense of confidence in Obama’s approaches, he’ll do fine.
I agree with most of your piece, except this one:
“Be sure people know McCain knows his stuff:
“McCain’s been in the Senate since Ronald Reagan was President! Obama can’t possibly know more than he does.”
If you say “McCain knows his stuff” it is dangerous. Many you say this to might NOT watch the debates, and they are left with this in their heads. And that would be bad.