Speak of the devil. I just posted this on the last thread.

OK, I have to say I was totally wrong about this yesterday.

He’s said the words. Now, he needs to take a few days off the trail and do his day job to assure the cowards in the Senate and House leadership don’t let themselves get bum-rushed by Paulson and his crew of crooks.

Digg this please.

mea culpa??

im so very liking OUR canidate….the plan is a very smelly rotten fish head

So now do we find out how much clout Obama has?

I have to say, this is really encouraging. Obama is showing some real leadership. Now he needs to stand by his position and herd the Dems in the right direction.

Step one. Check.

Obama has given an indication that what Paulson wants is wrong and he has even laid out the basics of the alternative.

Step two is the bitch.

Get the party behind him on this. Then:

Stare. The. Motherfu**ers. Down.

Hey, I heard on the Sunday talking heads that Paulson actually wants the Wall St. money managers to shop the securities that the taxpayers buy. So not only do they get bailed out on the assets, they get to profit on the trade.

yup…i dont envy him

Hurray!!

ive heard they have dibs on your left kidney too

I must eat crow as well. I thought this would be just like FISA. I will be watching.

Seems like this is the Patriot Act all over again.

What did Bush say… “Fool me once shame on you. Fool me - you cant get fooled again.”

Dugg and have to say very pleasantly surprised to see Obama’s statements; now lets see if there’s anything but words behind his stances; it may also be that his advisors clued him in that if Paulson’s crap goes ahead, the next Prez’s hands are tied completely for the next two years at a minimum.

I have 2 so maybe I might be able to survive that. Paulson’s plan, not so much.

its doomed at the gitgo

So glad I e-mailed the Obama campaign re the bailout. I knew he was listening to me “g”

he got 2 big BALLS too…dont he?

We find out whether he puts his clout behind his words. Lets hope he does.

he s just one man,dont forget,talk about fighting city hall

Can he organize his campaign to mobilize the supporters to flood congress with phone calls, faxes and letters?

Honestly, with Pelosi and Reid “In Charge” what hope is there of making any kind of stand against this bailout without any concessions. I don’t mean to whine but it is an honest question.

Politico adds this tidbit from Obama:

“If we grant the Treasury broad authority to address the immediate crisis, we must insist on independent accountability and oversight,” Obama said. “Given the breach of trust we have seen and the magnitude of the taxpayer money involved, there can be no blank check.”

Maybe the strategy for Monday is to call as many Dems as we can and urge them to get behind the party’s nominee and fight hard for what he wants. Even if Obama doesn’t put any effort behind his words, we can and then we need to remind him of this statement every day if we have to.

But when Paulson, the Blue Dogs and the Republicans use this list to wipe their asses and hand it back, then what?

I’d like to hope we’re not looking at a FISA replay. I’m audacious that way.

good for obama!

here is my contribution to the list of demands: not one dime without full transparency.

p.s re: “Sixth, we need to start putting in place the rules of the road I’ve been calling for for years to prevent this from ever happening again.”

anyone know of any links to previous “rules of the road” proposals/legislation obama has put forward? i did not know there was any - and would love to read his old proposals to get a better feel for how he has been thinking about these issues when not on the campaign trail.

No shortage of testosterone poisoning on Wall St.

Ah everyone has moved here with no apologies for trying to avoid the fate of Evil Parallel Universe making the same comment twice here goes:

In the immortal words of St. Ronny The GaGa You ain’t seen nothin’ yet! I don’t know if they’ve been covered yet in these pages but I suggest that people do a bit of googling on the Alt A. loans crisis and then pester someone like Ian to write about it. They are as the moderately conservative U.K Independent puts it Potentially more toxic than sub-prime

Lehman Brothers admitted that it had cut the value of its Alt-As by 71 per cent – a deeper writedown than it made on its sub-prime securities. The cut left Lehman less exposed to Alt-As than HBOS.

The securities are known as “liar loans” in America because borrowers give no proof of income. Many applicants exaggerated their earnings to obtain larger loans to buy bigger homes, but were unable to pay the interest – especially when the low initial “teaser” rates charged in the initial years jumped later to market levels.

Default rates have quadrupled in the past year and are five times greater than the arrears on prime loans. Although sub-prime defaults are worse, there are twice as many Alt-A loans outstanding, making them potentially more dangerous.

Emphasis added.

Ian consider yourself pestered.

mfi

i am sooooo hoping to have to eat a mountain of crow.

as jim say above, this is only the first step. words are necessary, but not sufficient.

I said the following before we picked out presidential candidate;

whichever democrat wins the office, if a democrat wins the office, that person, whoever it is, will be counted among the greatest presidents who have ever served this nation

I have chills, those bumps that send a shiver through your skin, obama has stepped to the plate and taken a mighty swing, it is the bottome of the ninth inning for this country and her constitution, this country and her middle class, this country and her integrity, this country and her standing as a fair broker of international affairs, this country and her future, this country and the future for my children, my grandchildren and theirs

He has taken the great bat, the bat with far heft then that of babe ruth, he has taken the bat of FRANKLIN DELANOR ROOSEVELT, he has taken a MIGHT SWING.

our country and her constitution has been lying in coma these last 8 years, she has awoke, she has spread her magnificent wings, she AWAKES and she EXCLAIMS;

MY HERO ARISES AND WE SHALL ALL RISE

god, please let this be true, as I type with tears in my eyes that the nation our forefathers fought with every ounce of courage

THAT THIS NATION DOES NOT GO SILENTLY INTO THE NIGHT, that she SURVIVES

forgive me, I have stolen the pros of so many, but I started typing and could not stop

I pray that we rise

This puts Obama in a very very vulnerable position. If the Ds don’t rally behind him, he is toast.

Re: your post a couple threads down, I think they finally gave up on Hash Wednesdays.

Yep, as I recall from Bonfire of the Vanities they call themselves the big swinging dicks.

Paulson resisted suggestions being made by Democrats that the program be changed to include further relief for homeowners facing mortgage foreclosures and to include an additional $50 billion stimulus effort. Some Democrats have also suggested capping compensation of executives at firms who get the bailout help.

Paulson said he was concerned that debate over adding all of those proposals would slow passage of the bill, delaying the rescue effort that is so urgently needed to get financial markets moving again.

“The biggest help we can give the American people right now is to stabilize the financial system,” Paulson said.

I’d like to see a list of things proposed to put an end to Wall Street greed that were stalled or obstructed by Republicans since BushCo,LLC has been in charge. Is there somewhere to find that stuff?

now lets see if there’s anything but words behind his stances; it may also be that his advisors clued him in that if Paulson’s crap goes ahead, the next Prez’s hands are tied completely for the next two years at a minimum.

I sure hope he and the people advising him get that picture loud and clear. If he doesn’t put up a heroic fight *this* time, he may as well just go home because he’s gonna be worthless in terms of any good he might have been able to accomplish as president (not just for two years but the entire four). :-(

and they will be forever too imo

I wish fisa came to vote now, for I believe obama would have found the voice of the people, hopefully he can still deliver the criminals once in office

Maybe… I suspect he has received some private assurance that they will back him but even if it doesn’t pan out, demonstrating that he is willing to stand against the party tide in defense of the taxpayers might not be a bad thing.

howdy mfi - i don’t think anyone here is fooled by the label of “subprime” on the mortgage crisis - alt a looks to be a much bigger part of the “shit pile” as atrios fondly refers to it. and that crisis has yet to play out, at least according to the latest charts i’ve seen at calculated risk.

but you are right, i don’t think it’s something we’ve talked much about recently and iirc we are heading into another is another peak of resets this winter.

Obama now heads the party. Just watch them all fall into line.

This is his first presidential test. And he’s gonna pass it!

Good point.

I’d hope he’d done his homework on this. But he’s a newbie in DC and I don’t know how deep his ties go.

If Obama prevents this financial coup d’etat by the Bushies, and actually follows through on each of the conditions he sets out in this post, he will have shown leadership equivalent to FDR in the first Hundred Days and JFK staring down the Pentagon during the Cuban Missile Crisis. He recognizes that to allow Paulson et al to be the Money Czar, even until January, will handcuff his Presidency on budget, tax and economic matters from day one. Cool detachment akin to JFK. I hope this is sincere.

Yes, on the other hand, if he does rally the Democrats, it will be the moment he seals the deal with voters, imho. I think a grassroots effort is called for. Flood the capitol switchboards Monday morning!

Obama seems to wait until the blogs, the press, the pundits, move on out ahead of his thinking. He’s a brilliant strategist. He waits. Let’s people think. He’s not a propagandist. It’s clear he’s trumpeting what others have begun to advise.

Brilliant! I love the guy!

you know, the shock doctrine is a statement of fact, real change can happen after catastrophe…the shock doctrine misses the point though, real change can also happen through success.

this is now the shock docrtrine yet we have been innoculated from the damage that would have come, innoculated with knowledge, hopefully we can use this shock to bring back the policies that made this nation great

the shock doctrine isn’t only for negative change, fdr used it for positive change, obama can as well

Hopefully, having Biden in the loop helps.

Obama cannot afford to have these guys shackle his presidency! We’ve moved beyond slavery. Long ago.

Watch the Dems fall in line!

Yep.

Given history, I’m more worried about downside, than hopeful about upside.

it is brilliant that he trusts the masses, he waited to see what we would hash about, see if the plan was a good one or bad

I GUARANTEE ian welshes posts and and information, as welll as marcy’s and everyone else who had something to add, had something to do with the entire progressive take on this issue

That was how Clinton was able to get things done back in the nineties, despite the Republican majority in Congress.

Maybe.

Or maybe they are toast.

Here’s why it’s up to us to push both the D’s and Obama. Obama released this wonderful statement on FISA on February 12 of this year:

“I am proud to stand with Senator Dodd, Senator Feingold and a grassroots movement of Americans who are refusing to let President Bush put protections for special interests ahead of our security and our liberty. There is no reason why telephone companies should be given blanket immunity to cover violations of the rights of the American people - we must reaffirm that no one in this country is above the law.

“We can give our intelligence and law enforcement community the powers they need to track down and take out terrorists without undermining our commitment to the rule of law, or our basic rights and liberties. That is why I am proud to cosponsor several amendments that protect our privacy while making sure we have the power to track down and take out terrorists.

“This Administration continues to use a politics of fear to advance a political agenda. It is time for this politics of fear to end. We are trying to protect the American people, not special interests like the telecommunications industry. We are trying to ensure that we don’t sacrifice our liberty in pursuit of security, and it is past time for the Administration to join us in that effort.”

How did that one work out when it came time to vote?

We have to give this one everything we’ve got to make the Dems believe Barack will stand behind today’s statement and we have to pester the hell out of him to make sure he does.

I completely agree!

We are doing our part for history! They want us to think! And they pay attention!

I can’t even imagine the chutzpah of a government representative with the nerve to ask for a blank check immediately or we’ll all die a death by a thousand economic cuts when that same government representative didn’t have the judgment or foresight to think dealing with the problem before it became a huge crisis.

I can’t help thinking that this timing is deliberate. Any bets on whether the Congress will hold the Executive branch’s feet to the fire? They all conspired, both the Executive branch under Clinton and the Repug led Congress, to deregulate to the point where this could happen to begin with. In any case, everyone from Greenspan to Paulson to Bernanke are lacking forethought and insight, therefore, they need to set up a new entity headed by someone else. Perhaps Warren Buffett would be a good choice.

How did that one work out when it came time to vote?

a VERY sobering point jim

It’s the laying down of thw Gauntlet
Social Democracy versus Multi National Corporate Oligarchy. Ala FDR vs Reganomics which we are all sick off

This puts Obama in a very very vulnerable position. If the Ds don’t rally behind him, he is toast.

three things:

1. only if he keeps pushing on this issue and doesn’t let up.

2. only if he is honest about what any proposed legislation says - i remember him making promises re fisa and then lying about the june bill.

these are the two things (there may be more, but these are the ones that occur to me) that we must now hold obama accountable for.

and finally,

3. we must also have obama’s back with congress and put the pressure on them to tell bushco to take a flying leap.

that is my take anyway….

Barack was not the candidate then. He is now. He’s the head of Dems. They all know it! He’s riding the crest of a wave here.

Since he has come out and said this, there’s gonna be rush to follow him.

me too

Point taken but, also, if he can’t get them to rally behind him now, what would happen if he were president and they exhibit the same behavior? Ditto #35 - he’ll be an ineffective president.

Truth to tell, eCAHN, if it weren’t for the SC problem, another four years of republics ought to pretty much end any more hassle from them. ‘Course there won’t be a country left to save.

This is his first presidential test.

not even close.

but this may be more important than all the ones that have come before it.

If the D’s don’t rally around him, I think THEY, too, are toast. Welcome to single-party politics.

I can’t even imagine the chutzpah of a government representative with the nerve to ask for a blank check immediately or we’ll all die a death by a thousand economic cuts-

No need to imagine, just look for a clip of John Boehner on This Week earlier.

I believe it’s china that doesn’t allow anyone or any company to own more then two retail businesses

all the countries who have kept their protectionism are doing fine, those that dropped trade regulations have done terrible

we must again begin to produce, we must again begin to protect our labor force and our own products against imports.

we must bring back local business

How did that one work out when it came time to vote?

fisa was possibly more imporatant then this one, if he passed the fisa this test wouldn’t have even been a test, it would have been rote

That’s my sincere hope. My point is just that it is up to us to make sure the pressure is applied everywhere it can be. I really don’t think it’s hyperbole to say that on this hand, the R’s are “all in”. We can’t be any less.

That was how Clinton was able to get things done back in the nineties, despite the Republican majority in Congress.

you mean: nafta? banking deregulation? gov privatization? media consolidation? the end of welfare as we know it?

can you guys imagine if all firedogs were together at one time when we heard this news?

man, that would have been great

Yes and before bail $700 “mark to market” every bloody piece of paper.
These are default credit swaps. “Paper Hangers” was the label used for bad check writers, Well this is bad paper that preferred stock may nor cover. Mark to Market as Ian advised. We need to know the value of the debt we are taking off of the Wall Street books. And we need to know what is still left there. How many more times will they come to the well? As many times as we let them.
You said:
good for obama!

here is my contribution to the list of demands: not one dime without full transparency.

p.s re: “Sixth, we need to start putting in place the rules of the road I’ve been calling for for years to prevent this from ever happening again.”

anyone know of any links to previous “rules of the road” proposals/legislation obama has put forward? i did not know there was any - and would love to read his old proposals to get a better feel for how he has been thinking about these issues when not on the campaign trail.

I nominate Ian welsh and tom Hartman, and ecahnomics to Obama’s economic advisory committee

not so - in feb, when he made the statement, he was a candidate for the party’s nomination. only after it was clear that he was the party’s nominee did he fuck us over on fisa.

You flatter me. And I enjoy it.

good point.

I second the nominations, but would like to include Naomi Klein.

and stiglitz, hugh, baker and krugman - in that order.

No, most of those were things Congress was part and parcel of. I do recall him urging voters to contact their reps and that there were a couple instances when it was effective but I’m drawing a blank on what the issues were. Did find the following in his Wikipedia entry, however this was prior to Republicans gaining a majority in the ‘94 elections.

Clinton signed the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1993 in August 1993, which passed Congress without a Republican vote. It cut taxes for fifteen million low-income families, made tax cuts available to 90% of small businesses,[45] and raised taxes on the wealthiest 1.2% of taxpayers.[46] Additionally, through the implementation of spending restraints, it mandated the budget be balanced over a number of years.

I think that Senator Obama wins the election by taking on the corporate corruption wing of the Democratic party. He will win over many on the fence independents and Republicans. We just need Steny & Rahm to give Obama a chance to pull a Sista Souljah on their money grubbing, corporate whoring asses over this issue…

yes - she would be an excellent chair of the council.

Change is about breaking the old ties and forming new ones. You keep playing La Traviata where they fall off of the balcony…wind up to the politics of change we need!

echan, the latest bank failures made me aware of something I had not realized, when I said we were printing too much paper and I didn’t understand why it would not result in inflation that rivaled vietnam days, you said you didn’t see it comming

the bank failures made me realize, there really isn’t too much paper printed after all, the money didn’t really exist, all that existed were promises, these promises do not have to be met if the bubble they were based on collapses

what I am asking, is it possible this collapse has actually simply equalized the real value of assets vs the promises of money by the fed that did not exist?

in other words, a great correction.

I see where we are walking the tightrope, instilling money into the economy that actually should be there vs instilling too much, the money of profit

if profit is taken out of the mix and the proper amount of paper is printed and put back into this economy, things might be corrected fine

that’s a good example. i’m with you on that one.

but nafta was also before the Rs took over congress (and may well be the main reason they were able to do so).

don’t think bush 41 could have gotten it passed, too many Ds were against it. but clinton put his prestige on the line for that one. that is why i hold him so responsible for it’s passage.

I’m sitting with my daughter calling our congresscritters and sending e-mail I hope everyone else is too.

We southerners with blue dog democrat and republican congressionals have a great opportunity now. We can call them out on their alleged fiscal conservatism. To the keyboards, one and all.

Let this not be a repeat of the FISA fold.
Let this not be a repeat of the FISA fold.
Let this not be a repeat of the FISA fold.
Pleeeeease, let this not be a repeat of the FISA fold.

have you clicked the heals of your ruby red slippers?

I wanna be on the ‘nay’-minating committee…

but nafta was also before the Rs took over congress (and may well be the main reason they were able to do so).

It wasn’t NAFTA that doomed the Dems. Everybody in a leadership role, current, former, or would-be supported that except Ross Perot. What sunk them was that they had been in charge too long and had grown lazy and corrupt… by the standard of the day. By camparison, the modern GOP has raised the corruption bar through the stratosphere.

Paulson and President Bush have argued that the alternative would be credit markets that remain frozen, meaning that businesses will fail because they can’t get the loans they need to operate and the economy will grind to a halt because consumers, who account for two-thirds of economic activity, won’t be able to get the credit they need to keep spending.

then give the money to consumers!

here’s what I hope to see;

we need anti trust laws enforced, we need labor laws enforced both here and from any country who imports product, we need some other protections which include employers paying their own bills, these include the health care and retirement fees for their labor force

hmmm…I am starting a wish list, I am really starting to believe obama can overcome the rascism that had me scared out of my mind

Cloture anyone? Filibuster Dodd anyone…this ain’t oah by a long shot remember the process on FISA took time and time is on our side…a little reminder just sayin think about it.

Basic principles were in the Coopers Union speech.

i think we need a “billion dollar” march on washington to say NO to this bailout and give the spineless democracts something to lean on.

I bow to your greater wisdom.

What sunk them was that they had been in charge too long and had grown lazy and corrupt… by the standard of the day. By camparison, the modern GOP has raised the corruption bar through the stratosphere.

power corrupts, absolute power…well, you get the idea

democrats will corrupt themselves just as republicans, we MUST insure political candidates are not guaranteed their seat simply because they already have one

they MUST pass the test each and every election, NO FREE RIDES, NOT FOR REPUBLICANS, NOT FOR DEMOCRATS

they must pass the test of the people

We saw tons of money come back into the economy by investors charging the market 700 points. In sales its called a try…an average number of tries to get the ducker to buy. The investors want us to keep baili and they keep sailin.

Because the fundamentals of consumer demand are so weak (mainly stagnant or worse real wages), FRB must use easy monetary policy to get them to borrow to spend.

But that only gets demand up to a bare minimum growth. Inflation in goods & services is a function of demand vs. supply, and since corp profits are doing so well, supply is not a problem, and core inflation is not a problem.

Instead the easy monetary policy goes into asset price inflation, i.e., bubbles and crashes. So you got it. The excess liquidity is destroyed via the crash.

We’ve had contretemps about core vs. top line inflation. Both are important. Core is what is influenced by monetary policy, though. Current rises in oil and food stem from supply shocks, and the consensus of economists after the supply shocks of the 1970s, is that they should not be addressed by tightening monetary policy (depending on magnitude & other conditions at the time, of course).

And medical price inflation is yet another story.

This is a very good day to contribute. Write. Call. Contribute.

https://donate.barackobama.com/

I don’t know where Obama is physically, today, but I hope that he can have a sit-down heart-to-heart, or at least a secure teleconference, with Ms. Nancy and Harry the Bloodied.

and lay down the fucking law.

The MSM is behind the bailout.. Paulson and Bloomberg on the same show so the writing is on the wall that they will convince Main St that they are saving them. They won’t mention the 2.5 billion that the Lehman’s staff is sharing or golden parachutes. IMO, the only way Obama can defeat this is to buy air time and call the bailout for what it is. He has to do it tomorrow. I guess I’ll send another few dollars his way. Also call your representative and senators.

It wasn’t NAFTA that doomed the Dems. Everybody in a leadership role, current, former, or would-be supported that except Ross Perot.

the party leadership weren’t the only ones voting. the unions, the environmentalists, and many more HATED it. probably, at least to my knowledge, the first time the Ds so blatantly betrayed their legacy of being for the working stiffs.

yes there were corruption scandals. but i don’t know that they would have gotten that much traction with the voters if clinton was not such a dlc corporatist.

I also have a lot of faith in Barney Frank and think that he will help lead the way. If the first bill is to fund an additional 250 billion with an increase in taxes on those making over 1 million then they would have time to work on the second bill. Ecahn, do you think somethink like that might be workable?

Bush and Cheney did that when Harry and Nancy first got their postitions and scared them both. Harry and Nancy have been good lapdogs ever since.

Completely OT, but a fascinating new piece of information that I had never heard of before.
http://news.aol.com/article/lo.....1200563346

could someone, echan or ian, tell me how our economy would handle a return to the tax codes before reagan redistrubuted the burden to the middle class?

I actually meant corruption in more of a figurative sense. Not so much in committing indictable offenses (although there were those) but in placing the interest of their sponsors ahead of the people. Probably could have expressed it better.

perris, well said!

BTW, I was never a great fan of Clinton, personally. One of Bush’s few positive (albeit in a dubious sense) achievements has been to make every one of his predecessors look better by comparison.

Perris, FDR has his radio addresses that everyone listened to. On this issue, it is clear that MSM will not address his concerns.

We also need to e-mail the Obama campaign and say we are behind him. That lets them know we are watching.

Someone should tell that to the Decider. He could stop searching for a legacy.

thanks, i’ve read that one. it’s the kind of campaign rhetoric i was trying to get beyond. has he ever, to your knowledge, proposed any kind of legislation that i could read?

Economy does quite well when taxing the rich. Best two postwar decades for high growth/low inflation/workers benefitting were the 1990s, when Clinton raised income tax rates on high personal incomes, and much better than that, the Golden Era of the 1960s, when personal income tax rates were around 70%. (Don’t hold me on the number. I have a graph in mind that’s buried in my files and can’t quite recall it.) All of the evidence is contrary to supply side/trickle down economics. But, hey, who needs evidence when one has belief.

BTW, the rich did quite well in both of those decades too.

don’t do that - if you disagree, i hope you will argue with me. i think, in the long run, i have learned more from people who disagree with me than who agree. it’s just that i think fisa certainly qualifies.

Not to my knowledge.

Stopping shorting…marin limit ratio 1 to 1 instead of 100 to one leverage on bets (short term investments) will do tons more than throwing good money after bad, All the econahmic blather means jack. Their casino is rigged by the house…the house in running treasury, federal reserve, Fred and Fannie they have a Catrack like the carnival…you play you pay…rigged markets.
Bail no way Jose.
The consumers are tapped period this economy is in a recession a bail out of the investors and Wall street will not get the econ out of recession or unload all the consumer debt,
PLease Edan don’t bloe smoke up our buts we bailin as hard as we can and the boat is capsizing.
There is no quick fix it took 30 years to get here! Think about it folks.
Obama is calling like it is and as usual a little softly.

If the dems want a party they have his back.

lol, yes. i despise bill clinton. but as i’ve said for years - i’d love to have had him as president for another 8 years if we could have avoided bush/cheney.

BTW, the rich did quite well in both of those decades too.

I know that, but there are those, (not all but the “old wealth) that do not want “everyone” to do well, they would rather a great devide and not grow, then grow and shrink the devide at the same time

these are robber barons

I had read a long time ago that there were records of cheney shorting the dollar

this was years ago, am I right?

if so, this fact must see a new light of day

there will be a great contribution from “the decider”

because of him, we might actually see a man of african decent the president of this nation

would not have happened for another generation or two if not for bush

that’s quite an accomplishment

ah, thanks for the clarification. i guess i consider nafta one of those “placing the interest of their sponsors ahead of the people” things. especially chapter 11.

I did agree. And thanks! Had I disagreed, I would said so.

The return of the Republics to true minority party status may also be considered one of the Decider’s great accomplishments.

Right!

Paulson said he was concerned that debate over adding all of those proposals would slow passage of the bill, delaying the rescue effort that is so urgently needed to get financial markets moving again.

Fer sure. With unbridled power, Paulson could move like greased lightning.
And with no accountability, anything he does will stick. Who needs pesky debate or oversight anyway, Mr poison pill.

One has to wonder if he or -gak- Snow should be permitted anywhere near a rescue attempt, given their willful complicity/blindness to the problem, until it suddenly and soo surprisingly popped up in full bore crisis mode.

(TheraP)

ok. was worried you didn’t and i’d bullied you into a faux agreement. don’t want to do that.

I had read a long time ago that there were records of cheney shorting the dollar

I found something;

Kiplinger’s reports: “Vice President Dick Cheney’s financial advisers are apparently betting on a rise in inflation and interest rates and on a decline in the value of the dollar against foreign currencies.”

“Let’s examine just that first sentence in light of recent events,” says Dave at the DR blog. “The Vice President’s own investment portfolio is structured in a way to benefit from the rampant inflation and precipitous drop in the dollar brought about in part by his own stated economic philosophy that ‘deficits don’t matter.’”

The consumer is tapped. The bail out will not get the economy rolling. Wall street welfare does not boost the economy it transfers more wealth from the people to the wealthy. Clear?

the proper bailout will though, if consumers can keep their assets inspite of the collapse of these lending institutions, and keep them at low rates, the economy might actually overheat

The financial mess is not ONLY about screwed up mortgage practices. That’s the easy one to identify because it rumbled through the entire economy, real estate, home building, surburbia and exburbia growth, the big boxes and malls allover.

Wall street screwed up big time with their “other” financial instruments - bets… which because use liabilities - debts which threatens to wipe banks out, insurance companies, pension funds and so on which invested in these “junk instruments”. It’s as if they decided they discovered a renaissance artists and traded the paintings at huge amounts of cash… but they were frauds, photo copies and not worth the paper they were written on. No one looked at the “paintings” .. if Merrill was hawking them etc. they must be worth it… rating companies said so. It was all a big scam, a kabuki.

The mortgage thing involved fraud with liar loans, bundled CDOs and so forth… mortgage seller - fee mongers/monsters could care less if the mortgage could perform or if it was re adjusted to be a for sure foreclosure. They got their fees and so did the loan originator, the attorneys, the real estate agents. Everyone laughed off to their Caymen Bank… except the person who bought the mortagage and was upside down when it all began to deflate. And it is taking everyone’s real estate down too. What went down in the mortage thing was criminal and many many many should be prosecuted for crimes, from brokers, to banks, lawyers agents and so forth.

The “derivative” monstronsity was simply the FEC allowing Wall street to be “creative” and entrepreneurial and accept phoney hedges against risk. Why do they have to take billion dollar risks?

The fact is the system needs to change not be flushed with cash of tax payers of the next generation. Who will buy this junk? Probably no one. And what are they actually buying?

This is free market capitalism trying to save itself. It’s only a bubble machine and it is funadamentally unsustainable without bubbles and debt and exploitation. If there are no profits and huge windfalls then none of the “entrepreneurs” will do anything accept live off welfare. If you can’t make a few hundred million… why go to the office?

Let’s talk about exactly how the crisis came about and what this debt actually IS.

He will withdraw from the peoples account and deposit in his colleagues accounts.
No bucks to fund alternative energy…this is a big oil move. Wake up America.

I truly meant it as I said it. I was “bowing” to give you credit.

Sorry if you thought it was sarcastic. I apologize if it sounded that way.

Don’t worry about the rich… they ALWAYS are getting richer, regardless of the tax rate, or party in office.

I’m not easily bullied. And besides, the folks here at FDL are, to my mind, a very kind lot!

i guess i consider nafta one of those “placing the interest of their sponsors ahead of the people” things

Absolutely but it had the support of every living president, in addition to the House and Senate. The unions definitely opposed it but their influence had been waning for quite some time. Maybe if it had come up 20 years earlier they could have put the brakes on it.

Ross Perot got that one right, too bad he was such a flake in other respects. I’d love to see the 2-party stranglehold on American politics broken.

WHO ARE THEY BAILING OUT?

If they want to bail out depositors let them say so.. everyone can remove their savings, pensions, etc and deposit them in a credit union or whatever.. buy gold… or euros.

Who cares about BANKS - banks are corporations. We need to be concerned about PEOPLE.

Heck you don’t want to throw some light on what when wrong… If you did that the people would see the fraud that this “system” they call free market capitalism is.

They won’t expose the underlying fraud. They will preserve capitalism (the power of capital over labor)… owners over workers. No discussion here… just let’s have the cash so we can continue the looting.

Who cares about BANKS - banks are corporations. We need to be concerned about PEOPLE.

bingo

that’s ANOTHER thing on the list for obama, RESCIND personhood for corporations, they are NOT entitled to constitutional safeguards

Banking, Insurance, Investing are ponzi schemes. Why won’t they say it? As long as there are new suckers at the bottom things work fine. They ran out of suckers cos they sucked em dry.

I spend a few quiet days out of touch on the bay and come home to this mess?

Book Salon upstairs hosted by Tula with author Jared Bernstein “Crunched” (topical)

So that’s the reason everything went all to hell!
;) Hi SanderO.

I hope so, I honestly didn’t expect to see a minority or woman candidate elected president in my lifetime. I now hope to see both, eventually. I also hope when they leave office that their presidency is perceived as having been successful, for the sake of the country and future candidates.

nader got it right too - and a bunch of other stuff. doesn’t mean i think he would have made a good president though. oh for a politician with clinton’s skill and intelligence combined with nader’s values, priorities and insights.

then all is well.

I was going to comment on this being a possible FISA fold for Obama, but I see that numerous others have beaten me to it…

We are seeing the death rattle of capitalism american style. But that is not being discussed.

How is it possible for a few banks to take down the entire economy?

Explain that please.

Obama’s official role in the government is that he’s Senator from Illinois and hasn’t been elected to any decision making role by the American public yet.

Now that’s he secured the nomination, he is the leader of a political party, he can make the case for the direction that we should go, and from the speeches I’ve seen, the points in his response are consistent in where he wants to go, not where we’ve been until a month ago.

He’s in a tricky position, he can’t make it seem like he’s grabbing power before he been awarded it by Americans, not just Democrats.

just got here, but I think you’re right about cheney shorting the dollar. May have it somewhere, I’ll look.

here is one of the greatest things that will come from an obama presidency;

that everyone, no matter what race, financial history, will know, they can rise to the greatest position on the planet

he will be a role model for everyone

Yeah, unfortunately there is a Catch-22 in that good government requires exceptional people and exceptional people would usually rather being doing something else.

Since we obviously need people who were not part of getting us into the mess as the ones getting us out of the mess. NONE of the old players.. Paulson, Rubin, Volker, Greenspan, Bernake.. ALL OF THEM should be at the table when this is resolved.

THEY should be at the defendant’s table. Instead they are all now coming for hand outs to shore up the system that THEY created and championed. We need some ration exuberance as far as prosecutuion of wrong doing. HOW DARE THEY tell us what the solution is! The fox guarding the hen house? Gimme a break.

It’s enough that the CEO’s and big managers steal as if no one is looking (and get away with it).

DON’T invest in corporations! Don’t give them YOUR money.

imo, it’s in his position as head of the party that controls congress that he acts to guide the congressional leadership’s response. just as he did on fisa (but in the wrong way).

The new Ted Rall cartoon contains an interesting hypothesis.

Obama is getting leaned on hard by Robert Rubin of Citibank who, of course wants to preserve the banking and financial system that we have (had).

We need to get rid of the Fed which is not elected by the people nor answerable to anyone.

We need to limit the size of any bank or corporation. No interlocking boards. You’re a bank… then that’s you only business. You can’t buy insurance companies. You have too much money? Give the workers a raise! Open another branch. Outlaw cartels END OF STORY. What happened to competition in “capitalism” It’s all monopolism… look at the media… the airplane industry…energy, insurance industry… the tel com industry… It all ends in monopolism because then there is no competiton and you can charge what you want as you own the market. That’s OUR system.

lol. thanks for that one.

I assume the OP is referring to this section (from the link):

As of now, the Bush Administration has only offered a concept with a staggering price tag, not a plan. Even if the U.S. Treasury recovers some or most of its investment over time, this initial outlay of up to $700 billion is sobering. And in return for their support, the American people must be assured that the deal reflects the basic principles of transparency, fairness, and reform.

First, there must be no blank check when American taxpayers are on the hook for this much money.

Second, taxpayers shouldn’t be spending a dime to reward CEOs on Wall Street.

Third, taxpayers should be protected and should be able to recoup this investment.

Fourth, this plan has to help homeowners stay in their homes.

Fifth, this is a global crisis, and the United States must insist that other nations join us in helping secure the financial markets.

Sixth, we need to start putting in place the rules of the road I’ve been calling for for years to prevent this from ever happening again.

And finally, this plan can’t just be a plan for Wall Street, it has to be a plan for Main Street. We have to come together, as Democrats and Republicans, to pass a stimulus plan that will put money in the pockets of working families, save jobs, and prevent painful budget cuts and tax hikes in our states.

From that you infer the following:

No Blank Check: Paulson doesn’t get money without oversight or legal responsibility.

Must Be Regulatory Changes: The practices that caused the crisis have to be ended at the same time.

Taxpayers Need More than Consideration: If a huge bailout is to occur, it has to be done in the way that costs taxpayers the least possible.

No Bailout For Foreign Banks From US Money: Instead, all countries should work together to help everyone.

Ordinary People Get Help Too: It can’t just be a bailout for Hank’s friends, it has to help ordinary Americans too.

I think you are kind of seeing what you want to see here in a few instances. While does specifically say “No blank check” he doesn’t spell out what he means by it, as you have. Also, I think you are stretching it with the “No bailout for foreign banks” bit. That’s just not what he said at all.

Basically I am glad that Barack Obama is saying these things, and if he follows through, I will be much more of a fan. But I have little faith that he will. It is signifigant that he is the first politician I have heard to be taking this stance, and I hope I will be pleasantly surprised by him.

Bernie Sanders said Friday that 400 families in the U.S. increased their wealth by 640 billion dollars since Bush took office. 400 families, 640 billion dollars!!! Tax the rich until they find themselves in the middle class. If they refuse to pay seize their assets and force them to leave the country.

Obama needs to get rid of Rubin.

When Obama picked Sen Credit Card instead of somebody qualified I was worried that he’d sold out. I’m still not convinced. But this is a good start. I would wish he’d start to explain how he’s going to straighten this shit out. There is some obvious things like beefing up the Department of Justice financial crimes division which under chimpzilla has be gutted like a fish. I wonder why that subject hasn’t come up in all this hand wringing lately I noticed the high and mighty Jeralyn Merritt hasn’t mentioned it nor any of the rest of the media. Next would be a real discussion of how we are going to put this looted out corpse of a country back together. I for one don’t want to hear about any roads. I want to hear about energy efficiency mass transit and taking us from being in the doldrums of broadband resuscitating our machine tool industry and so forth.

What I am wondering is what will happen if McCain comes out on the side of no blank check. It’s hard to guess what he’ll say (and I haven’t seen anything from him after Obama’s statements)—whether he’ll come out in opposition to Obama just to be opposite or whether he’ll try to be consistent with his latest statements against greed, etc. Hut anyhow, assume he goes for consistency.

What happens if both candidates come out in support of controls on Paulson, foreclosure relief, oversight, etc.? Would BushCo support the new leader of their own party?

Way to go, Barack! Now, let’s get Nancy & Harry to put your fantastic solutions on paper and get it to George Bush’s desk! And when he vetoes it because it’s “too generous” to the American people, well, WE WILL VOTE FOR YOU AT THE BALLOT BOX as will all those independents who were on the fence between you and McDummy! Okay? Good. ;-)

One thing I loved about Joe Biden’s VP acceptance speech was he said to members of his own party in DC, “You will never hear….the VP is on the phone”, meaning, Dick Cheney was constantly calling the House & Senate members and most likely threatening them to do what HE wanted.

America is looking up! I’m so proud of our country for standing behind Barack & Joe to take a stand once and for all against the right wing fascist/capitalists who have ruined our country with their lies, deceits, thieving, and criminal activity.

i agree, i just want him to consolidate his power without potential perception problems, eg uppity black man, or sexism etc.

This is THE defining move for Obama - Tough, taking a stand against corrupt corporations and their political cronies. for the people, a voice, finally. He should also say I fully expect Republican McCain to quickly jump on the bandwagon - another reversal, so many I have lost track of them.

He needs to give Wall Street back the 9 or so million they have “advanced” Obama.

Senator Bernie Sanders has some ideas.

check huffington post. can’t get link to work. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....28046.html

Now if only it turns out to be more than just talk to appease the savage liberal…

For those who are ready to flood our Democrats in Congress with the demand that they support Obama and refuse to approve Paulson’s plan, here is a web site that lists all the congressional e-mail addresses:

www.visi.com/juan/congress

If the support for Obama and against Paulson is overwhelming, Congressional Dems won’t dare back down.

Your link works…

“The biggest help we can give the American people right now is to stabilize the financial system,” Paulson said.

If they want Democratic fingerprints on the new law, then they get Democratic fingerprints and not b.s.

What this means is we consider this long enough to know the dimensions and how it will play out before we sign. We DO want to give the American people a stable financial system and to us that might mean something a little different than it does to an economist from the U. of Chicago.

… the economy will grind to a halt because consumers, who account for two-thirds of economic activity, won’t be able to get the credit they need to keep spending.

then give the money to consumers!

Credit expands and contracts, but cash is forever. Expanding cash would induce price inflation and not produce anything. Reinvigorating credit allows the business world to work properly.

Credit & cash can serve entirely separate functions and it’s best to not incorrectly mix them.