NOTE: Marty Lederman of Balkinization will be here at noon PT/3 pm ET, to discuss restoration of the rule of law and reforms at the DOJ under the next Administration. It’s a special First Monday, in conjunction with the Alliance for Justice. Hope you can join us!
Excerpts from Barton Gellman’s new book – The Angler – have been running in the WaPo. (Part I and Part II) Despite everything I know about Dick Cheney’s reckless disregard for balance of powers and government of laws, it’s been an eye-popping, infuriating read.
It’s been clear that Dick Cheney was running a shadow national security apparatus out of his offices across from the White House.
Especially given the copious testimony from the Libby trial regarding the differences between the Cheney/Libby briefings, the minute detail of required answers, their visits to Langley to interrogate dissenters. And the scantier Cliff’s Notes version George Bush’s short attention span demanded.
We had some idea the lengths to which Cheney and Addington would go. But, seizing the reins of power entirely from experts in the field, and determining the outcome and action regardless of all contradictory evidence or analysis? Forcing their views on the whole of government?
In short, a dictatorial regime of national security power, imposed by fiat from a sterile, lawless, highly circumscribed set of advisors starved for oxygen and advice from experts who might have raised questions. Contradictions need not apply.
Cheney had a pet president on a short leash. And George Bush allowed himself to be so treated. He’ll have to answer to history as to why. Even I could not have dreamed up such a scenario in my worst nightmare, and yet, here we are.
But this goes beyond a blatant power grab to something treasonous:
Addington opened the code-word-classified file on his computer. He had a presidential directive to rewrite.
It has been widely reported that Bush executed the March 11 order with a blank space over the attorney general’s signature line. That is not correct. For reasons both symbolic and practical, the vice president’s lawyer could not tolerate an empty spot where a mutinous subordinate should have signed. Addington typed a substitute signature line: "Alberto R. Gonzales."
…He drew up new language in which the president relied on his own authority to certify the program as lawful. Bush expressly overrode the Justice Department and any act of Congress or judicial decision that purported to constrain his power as commander in chief. Only Richard M. Nixon, in an interview after leaving the White House in disgrace, claimed authority so nearly unlimited.
The specter of future prosecutions hung over the program, now that Justice had ruled it illegal.
"Pardon was in the air," said one of the lawyers involved….
I do not give a rat’s ass who you are. Or what the title may be on your door. When you are told that the entirety of the Department of Justice will not support your legal reasoning because it is fatally flawed, and you bull ahead anyway? You are a dangerous egomaniac and you have no business ever again being anywhere near the levers of power.
Further, you are also a moron whose ideas clearly cannot withstand critical review, and you knew it, which is why you squirreled them away from peer review. For shame.
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Hello all – anyone in the bay area see any of these?
http://freewayblogger.blogspot…..today.html
mind you, that’s just one guy in one day. imagine if there were more of us…
peace, scarlet
Ummmm…. how about SULPHUR was in the air?
I don’t want to hear about Cheney’s nuts – especially right after lunch!
brain bleach please.
Coup d’etat.
Yet to be proven successful or not. I will not rest until they have packed their bags and have left the building (WH). They have plenty of options to remain in power should they ultimately decide to do so.
If one looks back..all the way back…it is clear as a bell what their objectives have been, what needed to happen to implement their objectives, how they would put everything into play to cement their power. They will not go quietly into the night. Don’t kid yourselves.
Love the Peace on Earth signs. So perfect, especially come the holidays.
I may not survive reading the entirety of Gellman’s book, I have to say. Just the excerpts are making my brain explode, and it’s only adding a few more layers of detail to things I already knew — but it is beyond horrid what he’s added in to the mix.
Oops. My 6 was obviously for freewayblogger.
Dick Cheney has no shame.
These evil men must be held up to public ridicule, contempt, and war crimes for daring to subvert the rule of law.
I include KKKarl in that category as well.
Asked by Daddy Bush to head the committee to find a vice-president for the Dim Son, Richard Cheney finds … himself.
It’s only reasonable that Cheney would know the Dim Son reasonably well. Did he understand just how incurious Bush fils is? Did his committee find himself as the candidate, because he knew that he could have the power of the presidency without being elected? I think so.
Does anyone really believe that Cheney could have been elected to the office in his own right?
BC
Here’s my comment on the WaPo site from last night:
Mr. Gellman – Thank you for filling-in so many blanks on this story!
You note that the Rule of Law triumphed over Bush’s Arbitrary and Supreme Belief in his Unquestionable Power as the Unitary Executive, less than 24 hours after Bush’s Own Lawyer certified Bush’s Own Program – determined by his Own Justice Department to be Illegal.
Isn’t it worth mentioning that by Self-Certifying his Own Illegal Program, Bush Rolled Back 788 years of “No Man is Above the Law” precedent in Western Civilization?
Bush not only Trashed the US Constitution, but he showed similar disdain for all the precedent of Law since the Magna Carta.
Oh, but wait! It was only for 24 hours!
Still, when Gonzales signed that Certification, Bush put himself Above the Law.
To commemorate the event, I nominate March 11th to be National Banana Republic Day – the day that Chimpy went too far – and the day before Order was Restored because Bush blinked against Law Enforcement.
What was Bush’s reponse to backing down? What did he learn from the ‘Crisis’? He completely crippled DoJ with Politicization and Yes-Men AGs, so that DoJ could never again hinder him by limiting his UE Powers.
Where’s the Accountability?
Hi Christy,
Just think, Gellman would have enough material for an additional dozen volumes if lieutenants in the Bush/Cheney crime syndicate didn’t ignore subpoenas.
OT: Lines in Houston to get water, MREs…are 3 miles long, and people are running out of gas and pushing their cars out of the lines…
Unforkingbelievable disaster in Houston and the region.
Christy,
The Gellman excerpts put an interesting light on Addington’s appearance before I believe it was the HJC a while back don’t they?
Why do I think Leahy, Conyers, and Waxman have been reading with great interest as well?
In the “Terror Presidency” by Jack Goldsmith:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..02292.html
The opinion of history is vastly overrated, especially in a nation like ours where the public, the media, and the political class resemble that guy in Memento who could not remember anything for two minutes and so was condemned to repeat his life over and over.
You know the opinion of history is vastly overrated, especially in a nation like ours where the public, the media, and the political class resemble that guy in Memento who could not remember anything for two minutes and so was condemned to repeat his life over and over.
are they showing this on TV? I’m at the food bank and we have the tv on for the kids right now
http://www.khou.com
Constant coverage about what’s really going on…
Ah schucks, Christy, it’s all just a policy dispute. So sez Cass Sunstein.
Something worse than Boosh/Cheney?
Caribou Barbie/Cheney.
Is the repetition irony, Hugh?
Hi Christy!
I trust you’ve seen this from Murray Waas:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..26383.html
Why does Dick Cheney hate New Orleans?
OT: The most brutally honest photo portrait of John McCain can be seen at BagNewsNotes. Well worth the trip. Kudos to photographer Jill Greenberg.
from MSNBC
beyond words
I think I understand Obama’s wisdom on this: these things have been going on long enough, they are no longer “exceptional circumstances”.
when he talks about Change on the campaign trail, he’s talking about other stuff, more important stuff!
whis is why D is for Change!
tnaks i’ll check it out. Hope we can do something on ur level to helpo since the govt under Bush is as helpful as shit on shit
related: AP: 300 National Guardsmen out of food and water in Houston
http://twocanpete.blogspot.com/
Of course McCain thinks the economy is strong. He has a $100 million money tree. I’ve been blogging.
Yes, well it was the best I could do in the writing this morning given I was working on another piece at the same time and trying to get a piece formatted for later today. Sorry if the phrasing was off…
This just makes me want to cry. This isn’t some damn 3rd world country or is it? Reality is this govt doesn’t give a dman about people, period!!!
OT: AIG shares have falling over 50% this does not bode well for insurance policy holders. They won’t be able to pay a freakin thing
Just heard from my friend in Houston. She & her house are fine. Just a lot of downed branches, some of them quite large, but no damage done.
Thanks for that.
*friendly reminder*
Keep your advertisements to once a day and we are fine. Consider adding your site’s address to your profile.
Thanks.
Didn’t they save their tax cuts?
(((y)))afkm!
Equally irritating is that CONGRESS has done nothing about this! They knew it, suspected it, condoned it, enabled it.
They didn’t Impeach it!
TREASON!
Naw, they probably spent it on frivolous crap like gas and groceries
I was a little amazed how fast Ike-lite beat a path up here to Illinois yesterday. A few limbs down, LOT of rain, some flooding. Nothing like the folks nearer the coast, of course.
in response to Badwater @ 33
Christy – two things I get(besides angry, filled with rage, etc.) from reading the pieces in the WaPo: Addington is a classic bully — big, threatening, loud and aggressive. The second thing is – even the most conservative, right wing Gooper would probably have second(third and fourth) thoughts about basically having someone no one knows, has heard about, etc. basically turning the US justice system into what amounts to a personal revenge machine. But certainly WE know that when you elect someone, you ‘get’ who they bring into the office with them.
The malfeasance of history is happening here on FDL, twice it has been addressed:
http://firedoglake.com/2008/09…..nt-1629010
and
http://firedoglake.com/2008/09…..nt-1631695
How can anyone know where they are going, not knowing where they have been?
earlier today,
“The Economy is fundamentally strong”
With every revelation it becomes clearer that they have no intention of giving up power. They don’t dare—then again, leaving the country and economy in total collapse for the dems to try to clean up might suit their plan too.
I’m wondering if the Obama campaign, Leahy’s office, as well as Waxman’s, Conyer’s, etc, have any way of communicating among themselves without being spied upon, tapped, etc,.
With all of the superspy powers these scumbags have granted themselves I doubt that any kind of communication is safe.
The tin foil hats are becoming mainstream now.
OT McShame now saying the economy is in a crisis this morning he said the economy was fundamentally sound. He is reading this stuff. Can’t he get people telling him what to say on the same page = this is nuts – what it be like w/ this lunacy in power
That is a quick march up the middle of the country.
Same here.
Fortunately we (northeast Ohio) were spared the rain, but boy did we get the wind.
Lost power 3-4 times last night, and this morning trees were down everywhere.
divorce from everyday reality
Be careful with that photo lay-out of McCain by Greenburg in the Atlantic Monthly – the magazine is said to be giving McCain and apology because the photos were altered by Greenburg.
http://www.timesoftheinternet.com/2336.html
As well as long term reality
If McCain/Palin were to win in November, the coup would be a success. Palin is Bush and Cheney on steroids. She would run with the supermagical VP powers that are now precedent thanks to the do absolutely nothing Congress to stop that crap dead.
o/t
Dow down 277 pts 3 mins ago, was falling at a 25 pts an hour pace since opening bell, but has apparently picked up speed
hold on to your butts
ps – Bloomberg reporting Lehman Bros in talks to sell investment unit to Bain Clayton, isn’t that Mitt Romney’s company ??
Obama is asked about criminal conduct by the Cheney Admin:
http://www.philly.com/philly/b…..ality.html
Would he, Obama was asked, order his Justice Department “to aggressively investigate if crimes were committed?”
It goes without saying that Obama does not give a straightforward answer to the question. He does not simply say: “Yes. I will aggressively investigate all criminal activity by the Bush Administration and bring the perpetrators to justice.” Instead, he twice offers a rather odd locution: he will, he says, order his attorney general to “review the information already there” and find out if there are inquiries that “need to be pursued.” Obama’s emphasis on basing his actions on “what we know right now” seems puzzling, until you tie it to a later passage in his reply, when he speaks of his attitude toward impeachment.
Obama says that any decision to pursue “investigation” of “possibilities” of “genuine crimes” would be “an area where I would exercise judgment.” He stressed the need to draw a distinction between “really dumb policies and policies that rise to the level of criminal activity.” He said he would not want “my first term to be consumed by what would be perceived by Republicans as a partisan witch hunt.”
from http://www.chris-floyd.com/content/view/1487/135/
This sort of thing is enough to call into question the unquestionable need to vote for Democrats, no matter what … which is why so few read it, or think it … but, these perilous opinions do exist, out there, in the Twilight Zone…
More Bushco fuckery…FEMA, etc.:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…../27/598996
Do Democrats just shrug about this?
Not clear why you are advising me to be careful, since I have no affiliation with Greenberg or The Atlantic. Anyway, I am of the impression they only used the photo they ran on the cover? As I understand it, they are apologizing because while Greenberg is a freelancer, she was representing The Atlantic at the photo shoot, so she either should have confined her efforts to photos they might use, or passed on the assignment. BTW, I don’t believe the photo I linked to, of McCain lit from below, was among those retouched.
Maybe prez Palin will select Cheney as her VP, and then we can enjoy 8 more years of great governance.
How can this be? Bush cut taxes for himself and his cronies and magically everything became fine for everyone.
OT — In a press conference this morning, Texas Governor Rick Perry supported his request for Federal support for Ike recovery by, among other things, saying that Texas “plays a very important role in the future of this country”. Anybody have any sense whether he meant anything particular by that?
thank you.
Unless he is peddling the oil bullshit, I would say all states are important. but what do I know? I’m just a DFH community organizer vegan *g*
OK. You have been dancing around this for weeks. You have an alternative, I presume. Your alternative has a practical agenda and real support, and the wherewithal to make something positive happen in the United States.
It is time to unmask him or her. No more dancing.
Who is your alternative?
Because for all the commentary you have offered in these weeks, you have shielded him or her. Time to turn your cards over, Cacambo.
I must have missed all the commentary. But unless it is the Dali Lama, I’m sticking with O
TINA, an acronym popularized by Margaret Thatcher. There Is No Alternative.
That does not mean there is choice.
This leaves the question of what they were really doing. So, what is the most they could wish to do? I have no doubt that they could record and archive in perpetuity every email, FAX, and phone conversation in the country for both real-time analysis and after-the-fact analyses. It’s likely that’s what they were doing. But what are they doing now?
Dalai Lama wasn’t born here.
The manipulated photos are currently only available at Greenberg’s website. I confess they might be a tad over the top, although I kind of like the one in which McCain sports a mouthful of shark’s teeth.
Never heard of that. *sigh*
I was being facetious, Betsy *g*
bmaz has this up across the hall at emptywheel
John McCain Still Living The Keating Five Lush Highlife
He also would never run for any political office.
In truth, I’d accept Al Gore as a surrogate for Obama in the Presidency easily!
the alternative it to be the votes the D candidate needs to win instead of being the votes he/she can count on regardless of how batshit crazy right they move.
there are a wide variety of ideas about what actions progressives can take and not all of them involve voting for the the D no matter what.
I pretty much shot my piece in an OT piece on an EW post about oil, but the whole thing makes me angry for a lot more reasons than Cheney target Gellman floats.
To start with, Gellman is a wapo journalist. Why are we JUST NOW hearing most of this? Years after the original NYT and USA Today revelations. WAY after the “Obama folds but steals the pot anyway” FISA vote.
Now, for the first time, we discover that the whole authorization for “teh program” was a recurring MILITARY ORDER that the AGs have signed off on as to form? Good lord. Extrajudicial, unconstitutional domestic surveillance authorized in abrogation of domestic law as a MILITARY ORDER?!?!?!?!? Just who declared that state of marital law (and doesn’t it really go to the credibility of all those telecoms and members of Congress, too, to know that there was NO “legal” authorization at all, but rather a military order for extrajudicial domestic surveillance.
And I find that Goldsmith closer in the second part hatefully smug. He made sure the rule of law prevailed for the first time in a war setting?!??!?!?
Why is it that everyone pretty much ignores that the POST-COMEY, POST-GOLDSMITH program is the one that was ruled, but the only court to deal with “teh program” on the merits, unconstitutional? Or that the whole crew lined up behind the unitary executive theory that the President does “make the law” for the Executive branch.
From the beginning, the Chief FISCt Judge barred the program from the FISCt bc he believed it unconstitutional. The program continues. The Deputy AG at the time, Thompson, begins to refuse to sign FISct applications bc he can’t certify that DOJ is in compliance with the CHief Judge’s rulings. The program continues. Ashcroft never bothers to figure out what he is signing, months pass, the program continues. Hayden fibs about the nature of the program and its checks and balances and supervision – the program continues.
The next FISCt Chief Judge makes the same ruling – the program continues. Golsdmith comes on and spars for months with Addington, convinced the program is illegal but doing nothing while trying to get authorized to talk to Comey so he can have someone to back him. The program continues. Arar’s lawsuit is filed, torture tracks directly to the DOJ, the program continues.
Hayden makes his comments to Comey about sitting in front of Congress, but no lit holds or DOJ orders on non-destruction of evidence go out. The program continues. Finally there is a “showdown” – - – but the program continues. Then there are “adjustments” to the program, all later held to make the program —– still unconstitutional. Now there have been YEARS of MASSIVE FELONIES and the program, massaged and rubbed with edible oils, still continues. Bush, Gonzales, et al get cover from NYT which won’t publish the story until after the elections. Telecoms get cover from Wapo, with Gellman waiting until now to come out with what he has.
No one ever is held to account, glittery PR is sprinkled around on everyone except evil Addington and his sideDick (who get the only annointment with ashes) the program deemed over and over, pre and post Goldsmith, to be unconsitutional and illegal by courts of legitmate review gets to continue for years and years and still today. And now Congress has been cajoled and chin chucked into codifying the whole mess.
That – that is what Goldsmith and Gellman paint as a triumph of the rule of law.
Where is Princess Bride dialogue when you need it?
excellent questions.
True, but he might be on his next go-round.
That is a decision some progressives make but that advances the progressive cause how exactly? We need to get the door open and this all or nothing meme does not an open door make. Sorry but the right has scared a good part of the country shitless about progressives and we have to somehow convince them that we are not the boogeyman. If we have to get that point across slowly so be it but i don’t see the logic of cutting off your nose to spite your face
24 – “I think I understand Obama’s wisdom on this:” I think I do too. He actually thinks if he backs off and lets all the Republican crime slide, up to and including torture and killing and child disapppearances – then no one will push too hard to investigate him and what he does when he gets in office.
Boofreakinyah for Change.
thanks for the link to the chris floyd article. the other scott horton interviewed him yesterday and it is available by podcast at antiwar.com radio.
Did Sunstein really say that?
then go out and support a local candidate that speaks to your issues. get local folks elected and then work on national. I just don;t think we have that kind of time.
ahhh! good thought.
If you would like to take a lighter view (I don’t believe this, unfortunately) you could argue that if Obama were to clearly state that there would be investigations and prosecutions, then that would be additional impetus for a sweeping, all-encompassing, outgoing pardon by Bush. If that happens, there can be no investigations or prosecutions.
it has nothing to do with “all or nothing” – that is a mischaracterization.
it’s about having a line – that not everything is acceptable so long as there is a D after the person’s name.
i’m not arguing that you or anyone else should do anything other that what you think is best – if you are spending every day volunteering for the obama campaign, good for you. but i also ask for that kind of support in return. that doesn’t mean that if you think i’m wrong you try to argue me out of my position – i hope and expect you to do that. what it does mean is that we all accept that we don’t have perfect knowledge and that our friends and allies here are all trying to do their best and figure out what they think they should do. just because we may have different tactics that does not have to mean we are not allies – it’s our choice. and i hope we choose solidarity in the face of choices for a variety of tactics.
please Selise, you know well that I advocate differing view points. My posts was along the lines of trying to get the general public to buy into the progressive movement. Don’t believe me, go back and have a peek again
here are some relevant bits from sunstein’s debate with glennzilla:
selise – my insinuation was not aimed at you, and if you took offense (I cannot imagine why), my apologies.
And really, anyone has every right to pose objections to any candidacy.
My question was directed at another commenter who has lots of criticisms and has offered zero alternatives. If I wanted to challenge your objections, I would have done so.
My bad, I wasn’t sure you were aware that Atlantic Monthly was giving an apology for the non-Cover photos, and I just wanted to give you a head’s up.
then i don’t know what “this” (in “this all or nothing meme”) refers to, if not my comment.
While you are not necessarily advocating an all or nothing, many progressives are looking for and holding out for ideological purity. Given that we are big tenet, I would like to meet that candidate that can represent all of our ideals. I don’t look for one man/woman to change things. i’m looking for them to stick their foot in the door so the rest of us can get through the door. that requires all of us to work together (even in voting). how else are we going to get in the door?
But this was not directed at you but others who come on here and bitch moan and groan about the imperfections and say there are alternatives but meanwhile Rome is burning. Sorry, i don’t want these food bank lines to get longer (and by the way i spend more time doing this than working for the campaign)
my wild guess is because we don’t have an opposition party.
oh and it still goes back to my first main point that I advocate differences in opinion all the time. So please don’t misunderstand what I’m saying. It goes both ways, we can criticize each other’s positions and opinions or?
Greenberg is a skilled photographer, I hope her career doesn’t suffer too big a hit over this, although the ethical course would have been for her to take a pass on the assignment.
can you tell me who these “many progressives” are? would i be wrong to suspect they are related to the more common “many people say”?
i just don’t know who these progressives are. is it possible that they are strawmen used to keep progressives in line and supporting the Ds not matter what?
79 – uh, right. Obviously the local school board member will do a lot to address Executive authorized torture, kidnap, mass media manipulation to support a war of aggression and occupation, and massive felony violations of FISA and contempt for the Constitution in warrantless wiretap settings.
That’s the kind of thinking that will leave this country stuck in the two parties, one corporate constituent, system.
If the “progressive principle” you want to support are to make sure that graft flows a differenct direction, then sure, the Dems are the way to go. I have no clue whether or not I am your definition of a “progressive” but what is important to me is that there is accountability for making this country a state sponsor of torture. Obama doesn’t offer any damn thing on that and he has not been a leader on: a) ending the war (although he was against it when he was outside Congress, once 2004 hit he said his position was indistinguishable from Bush’s and he has since been afraid to ever question anything McCain says about the surge and he never stood with Murtha or made a big noise in his part of the world to lead on the issue of what we SHOULD do and why); b) torture and GITMO and the tens of thousands held in concentrated population camps in Afghanistan and Iraq and the blatant disregard lives of brown civilians in our occupied areas – all he will do is mimic McCain and say we should close GITMO, but not give all those terrorists there rights like ‘Mericans!; or c) massive felonies under FISA, despite lip service to accountability when he needed Feingold’s support before the WI primary.
McCain is going to be a horrible choice, but that doesn’t make Obama a good choice or even a good man. Another election where most voters feel compelled to vote for one or the other is just more of the status quo. Real changes is going to mean starting to get 10% or so for two or more other party candidates, so that the hegemony gets a challenge. That won’t make any difference in the short run of course. But if you really want CHANGE, then you have to be willing to suffer for it – not expect that you get a little gift wrapped sloganeering on a sign and that’s it.
At some point you have to willing to not support either evil rather than always opting for the “lesser evil” which you only know to be lesser bc it wears the “right” label, one that starts with either a D or an R.
Obviously, ymdidv
I’m not pointing the finger at you, Selise so lower your hackles. but if you want one, i give you my best friend who is such a purist that he refuses to vote for a candidate unless they meet his progressive requirements. Some of those are: impeachment, FISA, etc.
I don’t think they are strawmen but rather people who have a very very strong opinion about someone earning their vote (and I have no issue with that) but my concern is you can’t get people to ‘buy’ into something that is foreign to them without easing them into it. People don’t like change even if it is fundamentally better for them
thanks for the reply, newt. much appreciated. my problem is that i agree with almost all of the criticisms offered here by Cacambo and i do not think that because they put us in a bind about what to do, or even that following that line of thinking leads to more questions, is a reason not to consider the points.
i would object if i thought the criticisms were untrue – but not because they cause us difficulty in our decision making.
Excellent, Mary. Thanks for the bit of sanity.
81 – When the loyal Bushies really need to cover their own particular asses, they are pretty thorough and they don’t rely on a “heckuva job” from a horse show committee chair.
People seem to forget that there are deaths, child disappearances (right now an 11 yo American child has been deliberately handed over to be disappeared by the afghan govt) and there were massive felonies of FISA. I think the pardons are all spelled out with all the i-s dotted and t-s crossed to the extent they might ever be needed and the only reason they wouldn’t be is if there are firm enough deals in place with respect to Republican and Dem leadership and each of their purchase on, and of, the Dept of Justice for no one to have any serious worries of anything other than whatever it is Mukasey has become ending up at the helm.
Prosecutors in America have pretty much offered themselves up on the political version of ebay, and the bids have been closed. My lighter side isn’t very light these days
take care all
Think about volunteering in your community. Lots of folks need help out there
my hackles are up, it is true. and it’s not all, or even mostly, about comments in this thread. but i’m trying, even if not succeeding, to keep my comments here about only what i have read here.
… and my point stands. one person is not “many progressives” so i’m going to stick with calling that a strawman, unless presented with supporting evidence. if it was only you making that claim (that deciding not to vote for obama has something to do with ideological purity), it wouldn’t be a big deal – but it’s not and i’m going to try to challenge that claim when i see it. you are just among my first attempts. hopefully the rough edges in my approach will wear off with time.
I felt that way as recently as 2000. I still don’t hold the Dems in high regard, however, at this point if Party A plans to continue the practice of torture and Party B does not, I plan to support Party B, even if Party A is never compelled to atone for their crimes. You might not agree but I’m fairly certain that detainees past, present, and (especially) future would.
If no one else is concerned by what is passing as history, guess I’ll not mention it again. Best of luck with that outlook, suppose it is only the gravity of ignorance, so be it. Natter on Nabobs
The info in The Angler is key, elections-wise. It will be very difficult to get it heard, given the Black Sunday crisis, Ike crisis, etc.
i haven’t heard about this. do you have a link? or could you give me enough info so that i could google for some links? thanks.
OT – Paulson presser on right now. Talking about major changes in the US financial system, major changes in USG structures governing same. McCain said the same thing an hour ago. I’m a bit worried.
WTF, now all of a sudden the R’s are the biggest Socialists in the history of ever… How the fuck did that happen?
Thats just like the reasoning that will keep this country occupying Iraq – there is no alternative there that “…has a practical agenda and real support, and the wherewithal to make something positive happen …”
so, clearly, the only choice is to keep on doing exactly what we have been doing, only better!
the essence of pragmatism!
Paulson preempted Obama and is on every fucking channel. Obama was just getting to his Proscriptions for the economy.
Per Sunstein:
Sunstein and I are in agreement so long as he agrees that war crimes, crimes against humanity, conspiracies to defraud the United States, and crimes against the bill of right are “egregious.”
Excellent catch, it happened right in front of me and I didn’t even notice that. Trench media warfare?
Looked like his comments were in the context of international surveillance only, right? Not domestic. So there may still be a bit of hope there.
I contend that pardons of impeachable officials can in theory be overridden: http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..157/563279
Surely you have an alternative candidate.
Being confronted with the political reality that you may not like your party’s guy – the lesser of two evils – it strikes me that you may have an alternative, but wished to keep your own counsel.
Assuming cynicism on my part would be incorrect. Tell me your idea please. I am not setting terms, and am in no position to do so.
Tell me your ideas.
No, in that debate, he and Glenzilla were discussing crimes in general by the Bush administration.
It’s clear that Sunstein is reluctant to prosecute but is enough of a constitutionalist to realize that it’s necessary. He calls himself a minimalist, which means that he wants that he’d like to negotiate a settlement to everything rather that create huge binding precedents. Obviously he’s caught in an internal struggle with what has gone on in the Bush administration, and I have no reason to believe that his better side will win.
Guess I was reacting to the first sentence:
Sorry if there was other/different context in the article that I missed (by not reading it).
Phoenix Woman is upstairsl with:
Shades of Herbert Hoover
I’ve got a friend who is such a purist that he refuses to eat any food if it is known to be contaminated with toxic chemicals, carcinogens, industrial antibiotics, rodent faeces and bug-legs!
and thats even if there is other food on the table that has all that, and is covered with alien tentacles that are still waving, despite being badly burned and oozing grease.
He’s crazy allright, but there are other crazies out there who built up a culture and infrastructure to provide him the choice of organic, local tomatoes, free-range chickens that have Mozart played to them in their sleep, etc, so he does ok.
No comparison possible to the political situation, of course – the Two Party system is like a law of nature, unalterable, forever! So there!
I listened to the debate some time ago. The debate was clearly about the full range of BushCo transgressions. The quoted paragraphs come in response to Greenwald claiming that all civil libertarians oppose the FISA Amendments Act and Sunstein takes exception to that; somewhere to offered Mort Halperin in particular.
But the second of the quoted paragraphs harkens back to something very general that he had said earlier about being fearful of criminalizing policy disputes. He was close to saying that it would be “victors’ justice” to prosecute crimes of the prior administration and Greenwald had all but accused him and abandoning the rule of law.
At least that how I remember it.
I think you may have linked to it at the time.
and a digression that is a sincere answer, or attempt at such:
my rough understanding of the Troubles in Northern Ireland – there was a while where negotiations between the enemies was unthinkable – no way was Britain going to talk to Sinn Fein, they had the blood of British soldiers on them!
And no way were hard IRA types going to talk to the Brits, and make concessions, after the terrible tortures they and theirs had endured in British prisons, etc.
These attitudes had to soften for years, decades, before change and peace was a possibility – prior to that, there was no viable alternative, no viable third party candidate, it was a deadly stalemate with only bad options.
This attitude that Democrats must be supported, even though their product is toxic to progressive values, has held for decades, which is why, unfortunately, there is no ‘viable’ 3rd party choice out there, today.
But its a marathon, not a sprint, as they say, and after this maladaptive orthodoxy is cracked, then options will arise, and we can see how they fare in an open political marketplace, rather than this McDonalds/Burger King Duopoly.
Fair try?
allright then, see ya later!
FWIW, that’s pretty much the way I’ve interpreted it. Both sides had to give up their hopes of victory and the Brits themselves had to feel vulnerable in their homeland (i.e., bombs in London).
It was actually a lot simple than this. It was about power not any Constitutional philosophy however erroneous. As I noted earlier today, Goldsmith quoted Addington as saying,
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..02292.html
Love the squirel pic. Reminds me, as does this post, with my ongoing war with rock squirels (Spermophilous varigatus) on my 2 ac. spread. They dig hugh holes in everything, chew their way into the chicken feed, and chew on the electric wiring. One even got a heart attack chewing into the water pump electric line (zap)!
Gotta get more big gopher snakes…..
Love the squirel pic. Reminds me, as does this post, with my ongoing war with rock squirels (Spermophilus variegatus) on my 2 ac. spread. They dig hugh holes in everything, chew their way into the chicken feed, and chew on the electric wiring. One even got a heart attack chewing into the water pump electric line (zap)!
Gotta get more big gopher snakes…..
Ooops! Database error, said please try again. Sorry for double post.
hugh = huge
Christy,
Thanks for this “keeper.” Too many Democrats have kept their heads buried in the sand for too long, or have whined and wimpered instead of exercising their oath of office. I am disgusted by the party I have supported for my entire adult life. Unfortunately, I’m even more disgusted by the Republican party.
We need better alternatives than the present political duopoly.
Bob in HI
Rather, think about grilling them over charcoal, occasionally pricking with a fork…
TIA TSP and Bush ensure no communications anywhere in the world are private. That said, you can invite someone over for tea and talk about how nice the shrubbery looks, offer up a cupcake or cookie and relax. At the end of the day the white hats will know what to do (and whom to do it to).
In Galveston we’ll clean up our own mess and we won’t need help from Gordon Brown or Angela Merkel.
In Washington the storm hasn’t yet hit, but it’s still 50 (or 51 according to John McCain) days until the election.
I expect there will be great collaborative efforts to clean up the mess before Alan Greenspan can raise interest rates again (Ha!).
BTW, did ya notice how irate McCain was in Florida. Was his jugular vein bulging or what?
Selise – if you get this, I meant Aafia Siddiqui’s son:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..35_pf.html
Whatever the very suspicious circumstances of her “arrival” in Afghanistan (as the Pak courts were getting ready to require accountings for disapppeared persons there), there’s not much dispute that she and her 11 yo son were taken, the 11 yo being an American citizen. The Americans showed up took mom, but handed child over to the Afghans to do something with. It’s really horrible IMO, to do that to a child just as a cover up. But that is the DOJ these days.
Ratfood @ 102 – what makes you think something different will happen with torture under the Dems? It is the Dems who set up the MCA and who were being briefed on torture all along. Obama makes some vague references to torture, but one thing you’ll never hear him say (or see him do I would bet) is that there should be consequences for US torturers in our intel and our military. He “supports the troops” and hasn’t flinched at the new paradigm they’ve been handed – actually, he hasn’t been as vocal as McCain, although McCain has been all bluster.
Keep in mind the first effort at taking away habeas was co-sponsored by LEvin and even though he backpeddled to say he didn’t “mean” to take habeas away for pending cases, he damn sure did mean to take it away for all the unjustly bought who didn’t have a case filed yet.
The Dems haven’t really indicated they will do anything more than sit back passively and support the torture.