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	<title>Comments on: As the Markets Plunge, Bernanke and Paulson Gamble Depositors Money</title>
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	<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/15/as-the-markets-plunge-bernanke-and-paulson-gamble-depositors-money/</link>
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		<title>By: Novista</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/15/as-the-markets-plunge-bernanke-and-paulson-gamble-depositors-money/#comment-1632473</link>
		<dc:creator>Novista</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 01:49:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/15/dow-plunges-despite-fed-and-bank-backstops-will-bernanke-and-paulsons-plan-work/#comment-1632473</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The first Republican president wrote the playbook for Bush:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Trashing habeas corpus — thousands of critics arrested and imprisoned without trial or charge, including newspaper editors, journalists, etc. Exiling a Congressional critic.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Interfering in state legislatures.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Sending troops to fire on draft rioters.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Manipulation of the economy.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Had he lived out his second term, he would have had all the legacy of Henry Clay’s “American System” (mercantilism a.k.a. cron capitalism), a central bank, and other gifts that keep on giving.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The first Republican president wrote the playbook for Bush:</p>
<p>Trashing habeas corpus — thousands of critics arrested and imprisoned without trial or charge, including newspaper editors, journalists, etc. Exiling a Congressional critic.</p>
<p>Interfering in state legislatures.</p>
<p>Sending troops to fire on draft rioters.</p>
<p>Manipulation of the economy.</p>
<p>Had he lived out his second term, he would have had all the legacy of Henry Clay’s “American System” (mercantilism a.k.a. cron capitalism), a central bank, and other gifts that keep on giving.</p>
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		<title>By: MarkH</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/15/as-the-markets-plunge-bernanke-and-paulson-gamble-depositors-money/#comment-1632470</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 01:46:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/15/dow-plunges-despite-fed-and-bank-backstops-will-bernanke-and-paulsons-plan-work/#comment-1632470</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;I wonder how much of this is *planned.* That is, stick the new guy with as many unsolvable problems as you can, so that come the next election, your team can get back into power?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;It’s the new Bay of Pigs with Lipstick!&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I wonder how much of this is *planned.* That is, stick the new guy with as many unsolvable problems as you can, so that come the next election, your team can get back into power?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>It’s the new Bay of Pigs with Lipstick!</p>
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		<title>By: MarkH</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/15/as-the-markets-plunge-bernanke-and-paulson-gamble-depositors-money/#comment-1632466</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 01:39:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/15/dow-plunges-despite-fed-and-bank-backstops-will-bernanke-and-paulsons-plan-work/#comment-1632466</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;if we had the info the feds have we could come up with a set of projections pegged to percent decline in mortgage values that would tell us where the various bottoms would likely be.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;IIRC, it was here on this blog last year that we estimated the market drop related to the mortgage crisis losses.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I think that we can estimate it by looking at what is being lost and asking what percent of GDP is that likely to turn out to be.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;It’s financial paper, not real stuff, right?&lt;br /&gt;
It’s highly leveraged stuff, right?&lt;br /&gt;
It’s related to the mortgage industry, but with some other stuff too, right?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;It’s likely to finish off the drop related to the mortgage industry — which I estimated at roughly 15%-20% of the market last year. Add some other junk and you might get to 25% of the market top from last summer.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;How far down are we from that now?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Housing prices are down, so the real world is getting there, but nobody feels bottom yet. It’s still got a little ways to go and then next year there is another crisis lined up in mortgages.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Congress HAS to fix that before it hits. It’s a very high priority for January 2009. If that’s done we can have a softer landing on housing. If not it’s a catastrophe.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Financial markets, being complicated, leveraged and interlocking can be very scary I’m sure, but not necessarily more devastating than the real world it relates to.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;How much of this is related to oil futures? Any? Cause that’s unwinding a bit.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I’d guess the biggest problem will be companies which are over-extended and might get to a softer landing if not for cash flow problems; government can’t and won’t help, as Lehman shows.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;All this points to some further drops, but if it’s handled properly we might still avoid another Great Depression. Problem is, George is still around and Paulson might feel some heat. A lot rides on how much leeway Dubya gives Paulson to do the right thing. In other words, it’s completely uncertain. But, at least today he did good and that’s reason for some optimism.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>if we had the info the feds have we could come up with a set of projections pegged to percent decline in mortgage values that would tell us where the various bottoms would likely be.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>IIRC, it was here on this blog last year that we estimated the market drop related to the mortgage crisis losses.</p>
<p>I think that we can estimate it by looking at what is being lost and asking what percent of GDP is that likely to turn out to be.</p>
<p>It’s financial paper, not real stuff, right?<br />
It’s highly leveraged stuff, right?<br />
It’s related to the mortgage industry, but with some other stuff too, right?</p>
<p>It’s likely to finish off the drop related to the mortgage industry — which I estimated at roughly 15%-20% of the market last year. Add some other junk and you might get to 25% of the market top from last summer.</p>
<p>How far down are we from that now?</p>
<p>Housing prices are down, so the real world is getting there, but nobody feels bottom yet. It’s still got a little ways to go and then next year there is another crisis lined up in mortgages.</p>
<p>Congress HAS to fix that before it hits. It’s a very high priority for January 2009. If that’s done we can have a softer landing on housing. If not it’s a catastrophe.</p>
<p>Financial markets, being complicated, leveraged and interlocking can be very scary I’m sure, but not necessarily more devastating than the real world it relates to.</p>
<p>How much of this is related to oil futures? Any? Cause that’s unwinding a bit.</p>
<p>I’d guess the biggest problem will be companies which are over-extended and might get to a softer landing if not for cash flow problems; government can’t and won’t help, as Lehman shows.</p>
<p>All this points to some further drops, but if it’s handled properly we might still avoid another Great Depression. Problem is, George is still around and Paulson might feel some heat. A lot rides on how much leeway Dubya gives Paulson to do the right thing. In other words, it’s completely uncertain. But, at least today he did good and that’s reason for some optimism.</p>
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		<title>By: Novista</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/15/as-the-markets-plunge-bernanke-and-paulson-gamble-depositors-money/#comment-1632465</link>
		<dc:creator>Novista</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 01:39:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/15/dow-plunges-despite-fed-and-bank-backstops-will-bernanke-and-paulsons-plan-work/#comment-1632465</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/14/ap-impact-tons-of-drugs-d_n_126330.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Drugs in water&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/14/ap-impact-tons-of-drugs-d_n_126330.html" rel="nofollow">Drugs in water</a></p>
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		<title>By: MarkH</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/15/as-the-markets-plunge-bernanke-and-paulson-gamble-depositors-money/#comment-1632460</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 01:14:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/15/dow-plunges-despite-fed-and-bank-backstops-will-bernanke-and-paulsons-plan-work/#comment-1632460</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;The Bush Crime Family is skilled at leaving few traces.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Not to insinuate anything, but just hanging around in your back yard could be bad for your health. nudge nudge wink wink&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The Bush Crime Family is skilled at leaving few traces.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Not to insinuate anything, but just hanging around in your back yard could be bad for your health. nudge nudge wink wink</p>
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		<title>By: MarkH</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/15/as-the-markets-plunge-bernanke-and-paulson-gamble-depositors-money/#comment-1632459</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 01:11:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/15/dow-plunges-despite-fed-and-bank-backstops-will-bernanke-and-paulsons-plan-work/#comment-1632459</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;went to open another account with a “more” sound one. I was told due to terrorist law it’d take 7-10 days to transfer funds&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;This kind of surprise is very unsettling and disturbing. Any kinds of hitches in the fluidity of capital can cause serious problems.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;In this case it might be more of a personal irritation, but if such things exist in the larger system, then companies can get caught holding an empty bag.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The short-selling ban instituted by Chris Cox is one such man-made hitch. I wonder how it’s going to cause problems.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>went to open another account with a “more” sound one. I was told due to terrorist law it’d take 7-10 days to transfer funds</p>
</blockquote>
<p>This kind of surprise is very unsettling and disturbing. Any kinds of hitches in the fluidity of capital can cause serious problems.</p>
<p>In this case it might be more of a personal irritation, but if such things exist in the larger system, then companies can get caught holding an empty bag.</p>
<p>The short-selling ban instituted by Chris Cox is one such man-made hitch. I wonder how it’s going to cause problems.</p>
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		<title>By: tjbs</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/15/as-the-markets-plunge-bernanke-and-paulson-gamble-depositors-money/#comment-1632438</link>
		<dc:creator>tjbs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 00:33:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/15/dow-plunges-despite-fed-and-bank-backstops-will-bernanke-and-paulsons-plan-work/#comment-1632438</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Freddie and Fanny back that so we’re on the hook for another 5 Trillion, on top of the five trillion bush ran up and the five trillion we started with eight years ago. Levittown housing in this area,which sold  for $ 9,000.00 back when they were built in the fifties, now commands $200,000.00 for an unimproved model which seems high by a half. Come on a 1/6 acre. That’s a mortgage of $ 1,800. a month w/ 20% down. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; Fifteen trillion/300 million = ? per man ,woman and child.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Freddie and Fanny back that so we’re on the hook for another 5 Trillion, on top of the five trillion bush ran up and the five trillion we started with eight years ago. Levittown housing in this area,which sold  for $ 9,000.00 back when they were built in the fifties, now commands $200,000.00 for an unimproved model which seems high by a half. Come on a 1/6 acre. That’s a mortgage of $ 1,800. a month w/ 20% down. </p>
<p> Fifteen trillion/300 million = ? per man ,woman and child.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugh</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/15/as-the-markets-plunge-bernanke-and-paulson-gamble-depositors-money/#comment-1632417</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 00:17:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/15/dow-plunges-despite-fed-and-bank-backstops-will-bernanke-and-paulsons-plan-work/#comment-1632417</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Selise, Ian, again this is only a starting point.  It represents the loss on the homeowner side. There is also how these play through the financial system and represent losses for investment banks and investors in derivative instruments based on these, such as the mortgage tranches and credit default swaps.  Then as Ian says there is the leveraging aspect.  Some of this went back into the mortgage market but some of it went into things like speculation in commodities, like oil, and also currency.  One way to address the current crisis would be to calculate what a best guess global loss would be and apportion it among those involved:  the homeowners, the investors, and the investment banks.  Again this is me just doing a first pass analysis of this, thinking out loud so to speak.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Selise, Ian, again this is only a starting point.  It represents the loss on the homeowner side. There is also how these play through the financial system and represent losses for investment banks and investors in derivative instruments based on these, such as the mortgage tranches and credit default swaps.  Then as Ian says there is the leveraging aspect.  Some of this went back into the mortgage market but some of it went into things like speculation in commodities, like oil, and also currency.  One way to address the current crisis would be to calculate what a best guess global loss would be and apportion it among those involved:  the homeowners, the investors, and the investment banks.  Again this is me just doing a first pass analysis of this, thinking out loud so to speak.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Welsh</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/15/as-the-markets-plunge-bernanke-and-paulson-gamble-depositors-money/#comment-1632389</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Welsh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 00:05:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/15/dow-plunges-despite-fed-and-bank-backstops-will-bernanke-and-paulsons-plan-work/#comment-1632389</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Also, the 70 billion is just on top of other interventions.  Since they’re keeping a lot off the books, it’s a bit hard to tell, but they’re certainly north of 500 billion so far, and probably a fair bit north.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, the 70 billion is just on top of other interventions.  Since they’re keeping a lot off the books, it’s a bit hard to tell, but they’re certainly north of 500 billion so far, and probably a fair bit north.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Welsh</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/15/as-the-markets-plunge-bernanke-and-paulson-gamble-depositors-money/#comment-1632387</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Welsh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 00:04:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/15/dow-plunges-despite-fed-and-bank-backstops-will-bernanke-and-paulsons-plan-work/#comment-1632387</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The problem is that there was leverage on top of those numbers.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem is that there was leverage on top of those numbers.</p>
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