I doubt Jesus existed. If he did, he was just a regular person that is in no way described in the New Testament. That is fiction.

I hope someday our species can move on from these fanciful stories and stop asserting mythology as history.

Now, I’m no theologian, . . .

With all due respect, I beg to differ. In my professional opinion, this is a well-crafted theological statement. Thanks, Ian.

And I’ll stand with the Good Samaritan, too — because I am a Christian. There’s lots of room with him by the side of the road, for anyone who wants to lend a hand.

“The God Who Wasn’t There” DVD which is regularly advertised here on FDL attempts to make a case for the unlikeliness that the person of Jesus of Nazareth existed. I don’t know if it accomplishes it (I was already biased towards that unlikelihood), but it does make an excellent case against indoctrinated education.

Now I just come to FDL to letch at the mildly post-pubescent young women in the Snorg-Tees adds.

Peterr, I’m with you.

I thought I would share this quote from the great physicist Freeman Dyson, about the essence of the Gospels:

“Sharing the food is to me more important than arguing about beliefs. Jesus, according to the gospels, thought so too.”

Ian, I needed this post. I went to Catholic schools and am shamed to admit, that I think the Church has lost its way. The only issue on their agenda now seems to be birth control and abortion. They can vote for a president that can tank the economy, create a two class system and have more wars. The death penalty is no longer on their list. Their main purpose is to establish a court that will overturn Griswold and Roe.

It seems like once someone declares that they are a Christian, they can pretty much do whatever they want. They will never have to demonstrate any level of knowlege of Christianity. No one will ever challenge their assertion.

Just look at Bush.

I don’t know enough to change the world, at least not enough to change it in a positive direction. But, I do know enough to change the immediate world that I come into contact with daily. And, with perhaps the exception of my driving attitudes (still a work in progress – the energy crisis may save me from myself yet! :)), I’m able to interact in a positive, constructive manner with the people and environment around me.

I don’t usually expect people to emulate my actions and behavior. But, I do enjoy it when I see them become more positive and constructive in sometimes difficult situations. I don’t know what comes next, if anything. Making here and now a bit better, just to do so without hope or expectation of a reward later, makes it better for me, and hopefully for others.

I think it may be the converse of a “death by a thousand little cuts”. Perhaps it’s a “life of a thousand little positive actions”. If we all put out just a little bit more constructive effort, the world around us becomes a significantly better place.

If Jesus were to walk in to the Republican Convention today, they’d call him a communist hippy, tell him to get a job and kick him out…

There it is…

Like you I was raised Christian (Disciples of Christ – related to the UCC), but have not been a believer for many years. None-the-less, Rabbi Yeshua remains one of the central influences on my life and a major reason why I am a marxist.

I hardly know what to say, except to not take your point. Bush may be his own special brand of Christian; I would not say he is about to be canonized or even thought of in the example of Dr Martin Luther King who indeed was also a Christian.

Should also add that not only did Yeshua bless those who cared for the less fortunate in the passage you quote, in the very next passage he explicitly damns those who do not.

There’s believing and there’s believing. You don’t know what someone believes by what they say they believe but by how they act. In that sense, we will only know they are Christians by their love — as the saying goes.

George Bush believes in gravity. I can tell this by his actions.

George Bush does not “believe in” Jesus. I can tell this by his actions.

That follows from a particular brand of fundamentalism (I am not sure that is official theology even there), where the act of “coming to Jesus” and being saved is an irrevocable act of salvation.

Hot Tuna Good Shepherd

I don’t know but it seems to me that the Jesus described in the Gospels is a pretty good person to emulate.

Which I think is kinda Ian’s point. The Jesus described in the Gospels is not the Jesus “followed” by so many of the folks within the right wing and the Republican party who seem to act in direct contradiction of the Gospel Jesus’ teachings.

They wouldn’t kick him out. They would crucify him again.

If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill the Buddha.

I was also raised DoC and feel fortunate for it. One of the memories I have from Sunday School one time was asking “What does the Christian Church believe in.”

The response I received was about the best possible one I could have been given: “We believe that all people come to Jesus and God in their own fashion.”

Freedom from dogma is a wonderful thing.

How nice. With you and Dr. Dick I am in such good company. ;)

I think the Church has lost its way. The only issue on their agenda now seems to be birth control and abortion.

Yes, and it sends an incredible amount of votes the R way.

My own mother admitted to me after November of 2004 that she had been a single-issue voter – that issue being partial-birth abortion (a red-herring issue as to which legislation already was in place).

Though I don’t agree with her views on this issue, I must respect them, because they are, for her, genuine (well, at least she’ll maintain that stance, although she simultaneously holds some very Hindu-like beliefs as well). I have managed, for the last 4 years, to not once succumb to the temptation to point at GWB and ask how she felt about that vote now.

This year, all she will say is that she will not vote for either candidate – just the down-ticket races.

I’m gonna take this half-loaf and let it lie.

Most modern Christians are in fact Paulists, believing God sent a second revelation to St. Paul which supposedly supersedes the actual teachings of Jesus.

“Sharing the food is more important than arguing over beliefs …”

Indeed, sharing ALL those things necessary and essential for a humane and fulfilling life – and no one has more ‘legitimate’ claim to those ‘things’ than anyone else; neither has any group of ‘believers’ the ‘right’, God-given or otherwise, to consider that they are superior to others or more ‘important’ …

It requires a healthy sense of self and a modicum of reasonable humility to grasp the wonder of existence, of simply being alive in the moment where one exists … the awe and incredible fortuitousness of … ‘understanding’.

Thank you Ian. I am a driven-away catholic and despise organized religion in general. But in some particulars there is much to admire. Religion is a man-made thing, and as imperfect itself as men are. I am getting less able to bite my tongue and avoid saying, ‘And you call yourself Christian?!!’, or for that matter, ‘How can you call yourself American?’. Almost invariably big-’C’ self-described Christians tend to be smug hypocrites who could surely profit from a jawbone of an ass upside the head. Small-’c’ christians are just ordinary folk like me who have good intentions and generally feeble will to do good. All the atheists I know, like myself, are christian. As are the muslims, buddhists and others I know pretty well. Whether or not Jesus actually existed, His teaching does exist, and most of it can serve as an excellent moral framework. Jesus’ version is not all that different from other teachings in other cultures, so I expect it is as hardwired into or genes as is the evil men do.

It is indeed a good thing. Though I lost my faith very early, I have kept with me many of the lessons learned there. Rabbi Yeshua, Siddhartha, Mohamed, and so many others give us critical role models to follow anf gauge our lives and actions against.

The honor is all mine.

An excellent book I just finished is called Misquoting Jesus. It actually is a review of how Biblical scholars study and verify the origins of the manuscript texts that are used for derivation of the modern Bible. It really brings home the fact that there is no substitute for the original text.

Nonbelievers like to task Christians with their strays from the path of Christ, but I don’t see where they’re in much of a position to talk. Karl Rove may be the most well-known atheist in America today. Most atheist who come onto political blogs seem dedicated to propagating mean-spirited, supercilious personal comments about religious believers — pretty much cut from the Rove cloth. They don’t seem to offer anything in the way of positive alternatives.

Well, here is the Christian alternative. In one of his letters, Paul tells his readers that the most important commandment is to “love one another.” Of course, that isn’t actually one of the commandments on the tablets — but he says, if you fulfill this precept, you fulfill all the other commandments. You don’t lie, steal, covet, murder &c. when you are filled with love.

“All are welcome in my Father’s house,” declared Jesus. Our task as Christians is to make that happen — to make our Christian communities on earth reflect the Father’s house in heaven. Personally, I live that way.

Thanks.

mp

Thank you, Dr. And also for you.

I am an ‘atheist’, naugie, and think you’ve perhaps used overbroad ’strokes’ in your ‘description’ of ‘most’ of those who consider the world differently, in a ’spiritual’ sense from you. I think you might find that we’ve, nonetheless, more things in common than in ‘difference’.

What do you think?

Marx once said, “I’m no Marxist and Lee Harvey Oswald once said, “I’m a Marxist not a Communist” when he was really neither.

And the Bush family and those who helped launch its murderous rise in politics are not Christians either.

They represent the AntiChrist

I think naugie was both overbroad and also did a little misquoting of his own. According to the New Testament, it was Jesus who stressed “love one another” as the new commandment, not Paul.

*g*

I started with the mainstream WASP denominations, now find myself hanging out with the pagans — but I’ll be happy and proud to join the Samaritan, Ian, Peterr, and the other good folks with them.

dr kirk is a couple flights upstairs

Try this link instead.

double crap.. this is the correct link

thanks peterr

Circular reference warning

Better linky

;~P

…although this article and the comments within deserve a second blush…

Marx once said “I am not a Marxist”. I wonder if today, Jesus would say “I am not Christian”.

Awesome to read that from you, Ian. I recently made that very same point with my closest friend, with whom I’ve had a decades-long argument (tho I didn’t “wonder” – I flat-out declared that Jesus would say so). He is a “believer” in the conventional Baptist, conservative sense, and it gave him pause.

Alas, only pause… :)

Christianity(as practised by many but not all pentecostal/evangelicals)today is a form of Calvinism.It is actually a form of Reformed Protestinism/ Though there are 5 points to Calvinism one says that Christ died (atoned) for the sins of those that are pre-selected to be saved. Though pre-destination is not explicitly aacknowledged it is the overriding issue. If you believe in Christ you are among those that will be saved. Therefore those who do not believe are destined for doom.

Essentially the need/desire to do good works is not necessary for salvation. just the mere acceptance of Christ.

I am with you Ian. I call myself a collapsed Catholic, but in reality it never really took with me. I was made to go through the motions but I also remember as young as 9 dragging my feet to get dressed for mass so they would leave without me. Just never bought into it.
However, my parents, through words and deeds, showed me how to be a good person. That I remain to this day and I don’t need some fear of God or punishment to do so. I was taught to care, to devote myself to bigger causes than myself, to try to better the world around us.
This is what the repugs and the new, holy roller prosperity Xtians are missing. For them it is all me, me, me. God wants me to be rich and have a good life NOW. That is the exact opposite of what the religion of my youth taught. Do your good works here and you will be rewarded later. Now they are saying enjoy your rewards here and you will still get into heaven.
What was it that Jesus said about the chances of a rich man getting into heaven?

A passage from “The Gospel of Judas” and a related footnote:

“Jesus said to them, ‘Why are you troubled? Truly I say to you, all the priests who stand before that altar invoke my name. And again I say to you, my name has been written on […] of the generations of the stars by the human generations. [And] they have planted trees without fruit, in my name, in a shameful manner.”(42)

(42) The reference to planting trees without fruit, in the name of Jesus, seems to be an indictment of those who preach in the name of Jesus but proclaim a gospel without fruitful content….

Do the names Hagee, Falwell et al come to mind?

it’s my deeds in life that mattered and that what I did to help the least of Jesus’s brothers is what I’ll be judged on, not whether or not I “believed” the correct piece of doctrine about who Jesus was, or what the after life is like, or whether being gay is bad.

Gee, sounds like you were sitting in my sixth grade religion class at St. Joe grade school. Sister Benedict would have given you an A for sure.

A very thoughtful piece, Ian. Thank you so much.

As a child I was confounded by religion. My dad would talk to me about needing faith and all I could think was-why? None of the virgin birth, sacrificing humans and easter eggs ever made sense to me.

That’s about my level of theological sophistication alright. But I like the Sister’s thinking. :)

Thank you Rob.
That’s my thought about this, and I think it daily, and always have since about 7.

A very good post Ian. Thanks.

I am a good Samaritan too.

I agree!

Not to be a total nit-picker but, the sickness started with Paul. His theology begins with the idea that humans are infected with sin needing purging. This idea obliterates Jesus’ message of social reform.

Wonderful! I guess because it is just what I believe. Like you, I was raised Christian. And I came to the same conclusions you do.

Thanks for this.

Ok, Ian, you’re no Christian. Perhaps you may be closer to a Zoroastrian. Christian compassion may be practiced out of the faith. However, Compassionate Conservatism cannot be practiced, because it tenets have never been well enunciated. Practical examples are too few to derive a basis that God dwells in them. So any of you Compassionate Conservatives out there better beware. You risk hell.

OT

Hi Ian!

Don’t know if you’re around. This is way off-topic, but Sean Paul posed an economics question to Stirling, Numerian, and you (if you were around):

“A Question For Stirling and Numerian and Ian, If He’s Around”

Stirling and Numerian have already weighed it a bit. I’d love to hear your commentary.

Thanks,

Eric

p.s. I hope that I’m not violating any web conventions by posting this.