Jonathan Stevenson’s new book, Thinking Beyond the Unthinkable, should lead to some interesting conversations – not just today on Book Salon, but also amongst the military and intelligence strategists he works with as a professor of strategic studies at the U.S. Naval War College. His book invites us to consider the evolution of modern strategic thinking – and join ourselves in new ways of thinking about America’s role in the world.
Opening with an interesting discussion of the ever escalating toll of human wars, he suggests that contrary to popular impressions, the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima was not seen as a weapon so grievous that it would never be used again. I particularly appreciated his reminder of the horrific scale of the conventional bombing in Europe before that blinding August 6 day. His discussion of the immediate postwar period is fascinating and a new take for those of us normally outside this specialist world.
Stevenson then draws us forward to the development of Cold War thinking – as nuclear war becomes “the unthinkable” and is recognized as fundamental threat to human life on earth, strategists moved from how to win a war to how to avoid a nuclear war. Think tanks like RAND took over what had been solely the realm of military professionals. His portraits of the leading Cold War strategists will be a special interest to readers who want to understand how we got from Hiroshima to MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction). These profiles recount the personal eccentricities of the key players – from Kahn to Ellsberg, Wohlstetter to Kissinger – as well as insightful overviews of their work on what Lawrence Freedman called the charade essential to nuclear deterrence.
Deterrence – as constituted in the Cold War – does not apply straightforwardly as we move past the nation state conflicts of our recent past and into the era of terrorism. (I, as always hesitate using the word “terrorist” since, as Robert Fisk reminds us often, we do not recognize our own terrorism nor the often legitimate demands when using this term.) As we shift to the current era, we clearly live in a world where the dangers have changed and the conflicts are new. Stevenson argues forcefully – and effectively – that our strategists have been late to the game, analyzing potential threats in terms more relevant to the old bomb shelter days than the world of Al Qaeda . Where MAD rested on the mutual acknowledgment that each party had an essential interest in avoiding conflict, he notes:
In 1991, nobody had imagined a group like al-Qaeda. No enemy in history had designated as legitimate military targets all citizens of Western democracies by virtue of having elected their leaders and thus bearing direct responsibility for their policies…
Where nation states would weigh as too dangerous an attack that called down the wrath of the US,
In fact, al-Qaeda’s shura, or council, sharply debated whether the shock of attacking the World Trade Center and the Pentagon would be worth the probably loss of Afghanistan as a base, and ultimately was persuaded it was. So the threat of devastating retaliation against territory that had proven so reliable a deterrent during the Cold War was unavailing against al-Qaeda’s most powerful leaders.
And in fact, the retaliation, according to Stevenson actually is seen as a benefit:
They seemed to view not only the destruction of 9/11 but also the robust U.S. response as a catalyst to a self-perpetuating and intensifying jihad that would somehow realize the group’s violent eschatalogical vision of an America destroyed. In that light, any feasible punishment, administered by the United States was not merely futile but, in fact, inspiring to the jihadists.
Stevenson leads us to think about a new form of deterrence – pointing out the ineffectiveness of the “misguided” attempt “to reestablish deterrence as a primarily military function” we see in Iraq.
The defensive jihad cut states out of the deterrence calculus by personalizing what is essentially an intergenerational civilizational grievance harbored by Muslims against the West.
Deterrence therefore cannot easily be remilitarized. But thinking on the uses of soft power – for example, diplomacy, information and economic inducement – to establish deterrence against the exaggeratedly hopeless but post-9/11 assumption that those willing to commit suicide in their cause are irreconcilable, has emerged slowly.
This failure to bring the creativity and rigor of the earlier strategic thinkers to the new challenges is the critical warning in Stevenson’s book. As he points out, the response of the Bush administration to 9/11 was not merely inadequate but seriously damaging. Stevenson’s description of the Bush approach is devastating – as is his identification of the “choice” American strategists have presented:
The choice, crudely, seemed to be between negotiation with terrorists, perhaps yielding them victory, or furnishing bin Laden, at prohibitively high risk, with precisely the violent “clash of civilizations” that he wanted to power the apocalypse.
Stevenson instead argues for a third way, a way based on pragmatism that not only responds to the threat of forces like al-Qaeda but also to the potential of progress in the world:
Pragmatism’s central tenet – that even cherished and seemingly immutable principles are just educated bets on the future –will not sit well with those Americans, of which there are many, who see the American way as the culmination of civilization, to which all should aspire. It’s true that victory in the Cold War, among other things, may have certified American-style capitalist democracy as a pretty good bet for the future. But it’s just as true that 9/11 was a bare-knuckled challenge to the American way. Protecting it may involve rigidity in some areas, but it will require flexibility in others: hedging the bet. The lone superpower has to be, as the pragmatists were, respectful of “other ways of being in the world.”
This is a valuable and challenging book. We are rarely exposed to the level of professional strategic thinking that Stevenson reviews in Thinking Beyond the Unthinkable – and yet, as we see all too clearly in the Iraq occupation, such strategies and policy directions impact us all – from the residents of Sadr City to the families of deployed US troops – and yes, us too as we face the world around us. Professor Stevenson provides us with an important guidebook which will hopefully inspire new thinking both in military and policy circles but also amongst us as citizens.



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Jonathan, Welcome to the Lake.
Siun, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
Thank you Bev … and special thanks to Jonathan for joining us – and for writing such an interesting book.
Jonathan here. It’s a pleasure to be with you, and Christina’s fine precis of the book is most gratifying.
We’ll give folks a few minutes to read the post and get settled in but meanwhile, Jonathan, I’d be very interested in hearing a bit about how you came to specialize in strategy?
One of the things she points out–and I try to illuminate–is that while deterrence doesn’t apply as obviously or easily to terrorists without states to protect, it’s still a valid strategic concept and can’t be discarded. The question is how it can be tailored to present circumstances. Unfortunately, in casting terrorists and rogue states and simply undeterrable, and suggesting that pre-emption may be the only alternative for dealing with them, the Bush administration obscured and delayed searching analysis of how deterrence might operate now.
Jonathan, what was the reason for writing the book, any specific incident?
This is a very important point – and seems reinforced with our “everything is different since 9/11″ thinking. We seem so unable to pause and think our way through the new challenges.
Jonathon welcome to FDL!
I have not had the opportunity to read your book but based on Siun’s intor a couple of questions:
Did the realization of how very dirty atomic bombs were (the realization that came after the atmospheric testing of the late 40s/early 50s) help to contribute to the realization that the bomb itself was bad?
And do you think that if BushCo had responded more with the treatment of the 9/11 attacks as a crime to be punsihed by Law Enforcement rather than military might, we could have been seeing the more appropriate means of attacking Al-Qaeda types?
we know as a fact cheney wants unending war and unrest, he made up fake data to undermine nixon’s detante, even going so far as creating a “team b” when the real cia would have none of his depravity
he used THE SAME “team b” to get us into Iraq and he’s trying it yet again to get us into Iran
cheney and bush were warned, go into Iraq and we will be recruiting new enemies against this country
they were also told we can NOT “win the hearts and minds” of the IRaqis if we have policies of torture
they were told in no uncertain terms, we enjoyed international approval for retaliation against al qaeda, and that retaliation WOULD have been effective, however cheney and bush would have NONE of that
they WANT to steal the treasure of the middle east, the treasure of the american middle class, the treasure our fathers invested toward our future and the treasure we were intrusted to give to our children and grandchildren
these criminals have trashed our infrastructure to redistribute our wealth, they have scared us into submission and they can only do this with fear
they want this unrest, it is what they do, they planned it from their sick maniacle fraternity known as the PNAC and they are sociopaths
Is should have said “as simply undeterrable.” But let me answer Christina’s question. I’ve had an odd pathway. Is started post-education life as a corporate lawyer, but got bored. I continued to found what I learned from Wohlstetter while an undergrad at Chicago more compelling than the law, so I simply quit and went to Africa as a freelance journalist. I covered Somalia and other hotspots for a while, then went to Belfast and wrote a book about Northern Ireland. I wanted to broaden out my apprehension of strategic studies, and wound up at the International Institute for Strategic Studies–one of the pioneering think tanks during the Cold War security–in London. 9/11 made me want to apply what I knew a little more directly to US interests, so moved to the Naval War College.
Now that is a very unique path … and it seems to pay off in your ability to take a new view.
I was very interested in the idea that it took time to move from the atomic bomb as weapon to unthinkable – I have all too clear memories of duck and cover, etc but had no idea how we got where we were.
I don’t think it was one specific incident–unless you count 9/11–that moved me to write the book, so much as the fast evolution of the strategic environment after the Cold War and the difficulty we had in dealing with it. Another factor, colorfully and passionately articulated by Perris above, is the malign ineptitude of the Bush administration and its lack of interest in analytic or cultural niceties than can prove so important in ameliorating conflict. Among their mistakes was indeed, as dakine01 suggests, the excessive militarization of the counterterrorism effort (starting with calling it, rather illiterately, a “war”) and the elevation of a war of choice ill-designed to tamp down the terrorist impulse over quieter diplomatic and law-enforcement efforts that would be more effective.
Jonathan – do you see the Bush approach as a break with the past or as a continuation of earlier misdirection in our policies? perhaps with a turboboost as it were?
In passing: From the introduction, yours is one book I wish to read.
One observation, learned at family council, was that it is exactly the same price to fence out a quarter section as it is to fence it in. The country will be paying for the choice made for generations, if never-ending.
I suppose my eclectic background does sometimes help me take the broader view, yet, though it can increase my burden of persuasion vis-a-vis my military colleagues. But I’ve managed. On to dakine01 and Christina’s shared observation, it was tempting to regard the atomic bomb and even smaller thermonuclear bombs as usable weapons even into the early Sixties, when “limited nuclear war” was not universally considered oxymoronic and a general or two talked about using “tactical nukes” in Vietnam. The civilian strategists, though, did a pretty good job of teasing out the political as well as operational infeasibility of characterizing nuclear war as limited and atomic bombs as eminently usable–at least in the sense of being interchangeable with conventional munitions.
I have not yet read your book, but I’m adding it to my list.
The idea of deterrence has *always* undergone changes over time. Prior to WWII, the notion that the loser in war would have to pay reparations to the victor was in part a deterrent to starting wars in the first place. As WWII came toward its end, people realized that some of the roots of that war were in reparations the victors in WWI demanded from the losers. Thus, this tool of deterrence was dropped as not only not effective, but counterproductive to the cause of peace.
By operating solely with a militaristic view of deterrence, Bush and his administration seem to have a very limited historical understanding of the concept, and also a very limited vision of what future tools of deterrence might look like.
Interesting … as someone who was a “ban the bomb” activist, I’m wondering if civilian activists had an impact on that thinking – or were simply perceived as “kooks” (smiling – I used to see a guy who protested our protests with a sign that read “more nukes, less kooks” which I always enjoyed)
I think Bush made atavistic mistakes that recall (though not precisely) John Foster Dulles and “massive retaliation” from the Fifties more than they do the Clinton approach to international security that immediately preceded Bush’s presidency. Our post-Cold War policies in the 1990s reflected some confusion about coming to grips with new problems, but there were a number of bright lights–e.g. Richard Clarke and my colleague Steven Simon–who were moving in the right direction. 9/11 traumatized everyone in the strategic community, jolted rational deliberation off the rails, and left space for policies driven by tendentious ideology and conceits of executive power and by those who disdained “reality based” analysis. Hence the minimization of the importance of sound intelligence.
I’m curious about the current strategic thinking regarding the weaponization of space. It seems pretty apparent that the United States and likely China and Russia are placing weapons in space. Any thoughts on where that is heading and what the policy should be regarding deescalation and eventual removal of these systems from orbitting our planet?
Jonathan, I wonder if you’re familiar with Doug Muder’s “Terrorist Strategy 101: A Quiz”? (He originally wrote it as a diary under the name “Pericles” over at Daily Kos.) It makes many of the same points your book does, particularly concerning Al-Qaeda’s motives and asymmetric war. Bin Laden points out that he, with US aid, toppled the Soviets by luring them into an expensive and drawn-out conflict that only served to bolster the popularity of the mujahdeen. That’s why Bush’s response to 9/11 was exactly what bin Laden had been hoping to see.
Peterr hit the nail on the head: deterrence has been around for a long time–certainly far longer than nuclear weapons. And even hardnosed classical strategists like Clausewitz understood the importance, for instance, of domestic political stability in discouraging an attack by an adversary. I think the civilian Cold War strategists also comprehended how important the collective political integrity of NATO–even though it was ostensibly a military organization–and diplomacy in areas like arms control and surprise attack were in firming up deterrence. It wasn’t all about military capabilities or displays of military power. Bushies tend to forget that–in part because they found it compelling, or perhaps convenient, to dismiss the validity of deterrence wholesale in the new epoch.
This is something that has been apparent to intellectuals for quite some time. The Bush administration (with Cheney leading the way?) has not studied, nor does it care much about, the history of war. These folks FEEL they know more about what the right thing to do than is wise.
I do think civilian activists–particularly once scientists started actively to support them–made a serious impact on strategic thinking and on the emphasis placed on stabilizing deterrence through MAD and maintaining the nuclear taboo. The decline of “brinkmanship” and also of missile defense reflect this influence: we needed to keep ourselves duly scared so that we wouldn’t even thing of using the damn things. The weaponization of space cleaves in the direction of missile defense in general and Star Wars in particular in that superiority in that realm could start to make nuclear intimidation look like a war-winning tool. So the prospective weaponsization of space, it seems to me, is a very strong argument for reviving arms control, which the Bush administration, again, has openly derogated.
But … and I am just thinking out loud here … don’t they also play into a mindset amongst many Americans that war is the only deterrence? And does that mindset relate to the fear we felt during the Cold War?
To Phoenix Woman–exactly. They have an uninformed confidence in American superiority and swagger. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the fraught US occupation of Iraq should demonstrate to anyone that (even) the US cannot easily impose its will.
I am heartened that arms control is an area Obama has worked in – even while it has seemed less glamorous than other foreign policy issues.
Sounds like X (George F. Kennan)
Where are the others like you? It seems like the Paul Nitzes of the world are all there are now
Your comments on the aftermath of the Hamas election were very useful – and point specifically to one of those areas where we need new thinking.
I have a good friend here in Chicago, like me in his 50s, who is Egyptian … in no way political or radical, focused on his family and business … yet his eyes spark when he asks me “why does no one care about the Palestinians?” These moments always remind me of how far we are pushing muslims with our actions.
Thanks!
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Timbo, that is a good point. There is a mindset among many on the Bush team that demonstrating a willingness to go to war with adversaries will deter others from crossing us. But that kind of deterrence only works if the US is able to close the deal in a reasonably neat and efficient way–i.e., unlike Iraq or, for that matter, Vietnam. When the US overran Saddam’s regime in 2003, it is probably true that Iran and Syria and maybe even North Korea were less inclined to make trouble. But once it became clear that the US would be bogged down and operationally overstretched in Iraq, rogue states actually felt more free to misbehave–and did. So Powell’s (apocryphal) Pottery Barn rule turns out to be the limiting factor on the war-as-deterrence idea.
High praise indeed to compare me to Kennan. Thanks. I think there are compassionate realists like him out there, and they will resurface if (when, I hope) Obama becomes president. And Freedman, discussed in my book, though a Brit, has written good things on deterrence and terrorism and he has intellectual influence with quite a few of the people who are advising Obama.
Johnathan you like many of us are a seeker. You address the options for a struggle with Al Queda Jihadists.
What other tool do we have in our tool box to stop terrorism effectively that we have not taken advantage off?
I think you answered me @ 19
We’re lucky to have people like Richard Clarke and your friend Steven Simon
Yes, American Muslims are generally prosperous and assimilated, and most have reacted to 9/11 by becoming more rather than less engaged with non-Muslim America. But the fact that they share the grievances of less moderate Muslims around the world with respect to US policy highlights the need for more soft-power solutions. The Bushies FINALLY came to understand this and made a big push for Israeli-Palestinian reconciiliation, but it was too little, too late, and came at just about the most unpropitious moment imaginable.
Good question!
Good question, and a tough one. I think the US has to get serious about what is blandly called “strategic communication” by those in the business. That means embracing the overall political effect of our actions as a prime criterion of US action. Once that happens, we can regain at least some of the acceptance in the Muslim world and elsewhere that Bush has squandered, and become a tolerable direct interlocutor with Muslims. Now, however, we aren’t a credible messenger, so we have to cultivate Islam less directly–e.g., by discreetly encouraging moderate Muslims to speak out, which poses a whole new set of problems. One positive development is that some respected jihadists are now challenging the tactics and strategy of al-Qaeda’s core leadership–and those guys have real suction with Muslims.
Jonathan has an interesting article at Wired on precisely these questions – worth bookmarking to read while waiting for your copy of his book:
http://www.wired.com/culture/c…..8/st_essay
I do not believe this narrative, The Battle of Civiliations. Al Qaeda was created to fight the Soviets. But we are the ones bogged down in Afghanistan and Irak-oppressing and murdering those people. Terrorists had never attacked innocent civilians before Al CIAda. Hardly.
I wonder if you know about the Bin Laden-Bush family Carlyle group, Neocon, Prince Bandar terroist network. Perhaps you should use The Google and discover the Saudis and Neo-cons who financed the 9-11 attacks.
Jonathan, you write at the end of your book about the problems faced by Middle East studies programs and our lack of intellectual engagement with the Muslim world. I was wondering if you could say a bit about that here …
and I’ll just note that even here in Chicago, it is surprisingly difficult to find even basic Arabic classes for example.
Getting back to one of your early questions, I think the insidious aspects of nuclear warfare–fallout, radiation sickness, delayed but lurking death–greatly added to the dread of nuclear war and the sense that, going far beyond the blast effects, it was uncontainable not only geographically but intergenerationally. This certainly helps explain the abject lugubriousness of Cold War literature, movies (film noir, e.g.), etc. It also explains why the possibility of a dirty bomb attack–which would cause no more immediate deaths than a garden-variety IRA car-bomb attack–is so dire.
It’s a good thing you’re here–I was too absent-minded to promote my own piece!
Jonathan, do you have any idea what Bob Woodward was referring to when he said, last week on 60 Minutes that the U.S. has a new secret weapon that it is using in Iraq, and which Woodward claims is comparable to the use of planes, then later tanks, as a game-changer in present-day warfare?
laughing …
It is an interesting approach – and the use of the net within islamic groups is stunning and virtually unnoticed here. I have friends in Iraq who send me quite amazing music videos, etc (this is a very simple example) that have viewerships way beyond our favorite youtubes, for example. We so often miss the world outside our borders…
This problem is something that drew heavy comment right after 9/11, but has gained surprisingly little traction over the past seven years. I think there are two reasons. First, federal financing for Middle East programs is riven with partisan politics, which I also cover in the book. Second, there remains an American reluctance to believe that cultural sensitivity, for lack of a better word, can ever trump hard military or policing power. Look at the FBI. It has had a mandate since 2002 to broaden its institutional culture from one of law enforcement to one of prevention and community outreach. Efforts are being made, but they are bearing fruit very, very slowly. For the intelligence community, the best Arabic speakers are first- and second-generation Arabs, but it’s hard for them to get security clearances.
I am not sure, but it could be a new generation of armed unmanned aerial vehicle–the successor to the Predator. It seems unlikely to me that it is a “hearts and minds” counterinsurgency technique since Petraeus would be the first to admit that there are no secret weapons in that endeavor.
Yeah, the net’s power isn’t lost on jihadists, who have harnessed it for recruitment and operational education. The USG can shut down websites and launch “dirty trick” information campaigns, but these are stopgap solutions. Net-based efforts will bear richer fruit faster when the United States’ political credibility with Muslims is rehabilitated, and that requires real policy change.
One of the things we do here in our posts on Iraq is try to bring a bit of Iraqi perspective into the mix – and we have been very lucky to have several Iraqi bloggers choose to join in some of those conversations. As Americans, we often have so little awareness of other cultures or even basic world history. Sadly, this is also something I saw during Vietnam when the US had hardly any Vietnam experts at all.
Do you have favorite sources or books that you encourage lay readers to check out to keep up with these issues? (aside from your own of course!) I fall back over and over on Fisk since he is highly readable and presents a very human view of the Middle East but I would love to have more.
Jonathan Stevenson (jhs.wired@gmail.com) is a professor of strategic studies at the US Naval War College.
How will the Pentagon and the CENTCOM find a path to these changes that are gigantic logistical changes and call for changing the national defense model, What cost will we face and how long would new strategic policies take to implement?
Is the military high ranking eschelon reacting to the box canyon they have been forced in by Neocon policy?
Well, I found Steve Coll’s book “The Bin Ladens” very enlightening, but no doubt there’s more to learn.
I would agree with you because the “dirty bomb” scenario, just like the excess fear of “terrorism,” seems to be more the fear of the unknown and the randomness rather than a rational fear due to rational causes.
Like Siun, I grew up in the “Duck and cover” times and there wasn’t as much overt fear of things as there is today.
I also went through the military training and one of the areas that turned me anti-nuclear was the lunacy when I’d hear folks talking about “tactical/battlefield” nukes. I never could get a straight answer when I’d ask how the friendly forces or civilians were supposed to be protected from the radiation and/or fall-out.
Jonathan Stevenson:
I’m going to buy this book because I think it would probably be the meatiest most informative books published in quite awhile. And The quote above reminds me of an article Jessica Stern wrote for Foreign Affairs five years ago The Protean Enemy on just that subject
It’s like one of those carnival prizes you got as a kid – you know, one of those “Chinese Finger Traps” – you insert your fingers in the straw tube like thing, and the harder you pull your fingers apart, the tighter it gets.
Honestly how do we get the American people to understand what you’re saying below? I don’t know if there is an answer … honestly …?
Have you read Robert Fisk’s The Great War for Civilization? Everything that was mentioned there was an act of terrorism against “innocent civilians”. The acts of terrorism were without exception some governments policy. Governments are the terrorists and they attacked innocent people to further governmental policy or goal. Al Qaeda is a governmental creation created to create terror. What is surprising about that weapon being re-directed against its makers, tis called blow-back. This is the mirror shooting back. Only that is novel. It is calling the victims terrorists that is perverted, perverse.
Lawrence Freedman’s recent book on the Middle East is excellent. Europeans, especially the French, have been dealing directly with their Muslim neighbors to the south for much longer than we have, so it’s not surprising than two Frenchmen–Olivier Roy and Gilles Kepel–have especially nuanced insights about the current strategic situation. On Iraq in particular, Steve Simon’s Foreign Affairs piece “The Price of the Surge” is the one policy-prescriptive article that genuinely mines the ethnic and religious cross-currents as they affect US calculations. Malise Ruthven, based in the UK, is also a searching student of Islam who resists pat, reductionistic formulations. Yezid Sayigh, who literally wrote the book on Arafat, is excellent.
Indeed–that’s why limited nuclear war, though it lent itself to a number of rather elegant scenarios involving the defense of Europe and was especially attractive because of the United States’s conventional inferiority to the Soviet Union, died on the vine.
Thank you … my booklist is happy for these titles!
Much appreciated. And I have a lot of time for Dr. Stern, who read and appreciated my book (and provided a nice blurb).
Jonathan – not sure how much you are able or comfortable saying about this but I’m very curious what the reaction is amongst your colleagues and students to your analysis?
In the immortal words of General “Buck” Turgidson:
I’ve read several of Fisk’s books, but not that one. I’ll put it on my list. And I take your point that governments as well as non-state groups can perpetrate terrorism–in fact, I believe the term was coined, or at least popularized, to describe the conduct of Robespierre and his cohort.
Help me understand.
You said:
“….. started post-education life as a corporate lawyer, but got bored. I continued to found what I learned from Wohlstetter while an undergrad at Chicago more compelling than the law…”
Is this the same Wohlstter who taught in the political science department of the University of Chicago? Chair of the dissertation committees of Paul Wolfowitz and Zalmay Khalilzad and credited with influencing a number of prominent members of the neoconservative movement, including Richard Perle (who, as a teenager, dated Wohlstetter’s daughter). [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Wohlstetter ]
And the same Wohlstetter who a cohort of Leo Strauss, who spent most of his career as a professor of political science at the University of Chicago, and has come to be regarded as one of the intellectual fathers of neoconservatism in the United States. [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Strauss ]
I guess what I’m asking is simple clarification of your position on PNAC and the neoconservative movement, given this apparent intellectual commonality.
I have not read that but Fiske is great, one of the few remaining genuine journalists. Of course “False Flag Ops” are a growing academic field of research. Darth Cheney’s false flag ops will keep dozens of researchers busy for years.
Johnathan these proactive post are more useful than the usual post that complain about the wanton waste of life and resources.
The Naval college needs to make an effort to more clearly define the purposes and appropriaye uses of our military might.
To release conventional militray might on civilian populations is or is not acceptable at the Naval War College?
Also my 49 is still unanswered?
Let’s remember that we tend to toss a lot of questions out to authors – I sure would not want to have to answer each and every one (fingers ache just thinking of it!)
Actually, they are pretty sympathetic. I work with a fair number of civilian policy analysts. I suppose civilians tend to share my views more than military personnel, but I think you’d be surprised at how many officers are disillusioned by Bush’s leadership (or lack thereof). Think about it: he has depleted the Army, strained the Marine Corps, and drawn budgetary resources from the Navy and Air Force, which generally feel that they have a relatively small role to play in counterterrorism (however militarized or not it may be) and need to worry about a rising China. Of course, military officers can be whipsawed between their sense of duty to the civilian leadership, their desire to prove themselves as soldiers, and their own analysis; civilians’ burdens are easier to balance.
Ah! completely overlooked the great “Reign of Terror”, ( a takeover of a government) You will find the book exquisitely written and presented. Robert Fisk writes for The Independent
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/fisk/
That’s very encouraging to hear!
One thing that seems to form a thread throughout your book is the resistance the strategists (and perhaps all of us?) have to continuing to do creative thinking. If one solution worked yesterday, the answer too often is that we’ll just repeat it no matter what new conditions arise. I found this an interesting reminder in general – but also a very serious concern about our mlitary and foreign policy. Can we do anything to encourage a more “continuous improvement” approach in the strategy world?
Yes, it’s the same Wohlstetter, and he would not be pleased at what his purported proteges have done. I interviewed his daughter for the book, and she lamented that the linkage between his ideas (and Strauss’s, for that matter) and those of Wolfowitz and Perle have been oversimplified and distorted to the point of sullying his reputation. There is some good material on this in Anne Norton’s “Leo Strauss and the Politics of American Empire” (Yale, 2004). Also, remember that neoconservatism started out as an essentially realist approach to international relations, with a side emphasis on upholding American values and principles; Bush & Co. turned that on its head by aggressively pushing American democracy in a very non-realist way that, at least in my view, ill-served US interests.
I think by trying systematically to “reverse-engineer” the RAND Corporation of the 1950s and 1960s, giving a new think-tank diverse personnel and an expansive intellectual mandate. I discuss this notion in the last chapter of the book.
We all have a lot more work to do then!
Since we are close to the end of our time, I wanted to say thank you Jonathan . Your book is a really good thought-provoker – and I really enjoyed the chance to step outside my normal advocate posture and think more systematically about the issues you raise – and I enjoyed the historical perspective. The questions you raise and the directions you point in are critical for us all – thank you.
And thanks for taking the time to join us here today to share ideas – it’s been a very real pleasure!
Jonathan, Thank you for stopping by the Lake today and spending the afternoon with us.
Siun, Thank you very much for Hosting this thought provoking Book Salon.
Everyone, if you haven’t bought the book yet, there is a link above.
Thanks all.
Intentionally directing military firepower on non-combatant civilians is unacceptable to the US military, period, and “collateral damage” should be minimized as a matter of doctrine. The caveat is that applying doctrine in the field, in combat, can be very difficult. My own editorial note is also that in irregular combat situations (e.g., counterinsurgency), US forces have tended to rely inordinately on raw firepower. I think the Pentagon is moving towards smaller and more mobile forces and status-of-forces agreements that leave a smaller US footprint and are thus less antagonistic. But recapitalizing ground forces after Iraq and Afghanistan may produce challenges comparable to those faced in the post-Vietnam era.
It’s been a real pleasure to discuss serious issues with such clever people. Many thanks.
Yes, thanks for writing about the need for a re-enlistment of original strategic thinking methodologies…much more likely to succeed than the glad handers I’d say.
In a parrellel Universe a collaborative effort is effective in reaching tenable goals. All the stakeholders need to be at the table. At least in a think tank environment. AIPAC’s goals of Zionism do not match up well with our best national interests. Not to say all interest need to be weighed for the common good. Now the Corporate interest are given deferene and served well by the almost 300 military bases that protect their assests. The shere of USA influence and interest escalate in the search for resources to feed the Industrial/military cmplex. That is the driver in all of this. On balance it is a scale that is weighed for the profit of the oligarchy not the good of the national or world view.
Jonathan – that is an issue that needs much more discussion – we’ve been tracking the choice to use more air power and air strikes in Iraq and now Afghanistan with resulting civilian casualties (and government coverups) and it’s an area where my friends in other countries, including several in other militaries, feel the US needs immense improvement.
If you are ever free on a Sunday night, we discuss this a lot during my Iraq posts (9 PM EST normally) and I’d love to have your input.
Thanks as well to our readers – this was a really good conversation and I hope we can take it further as we think about – and vote for leaders of – our foreign policy.
Thank You!!!
You’re right, too. I’ll try to log in one night. Thanks for doing a superb job of moderating.
Thanks Jonathan, Siun and Bev for the post, Now I will have to find the book, my to read pile grows ever larger.;-)
Aah… I’m bummed that I missed this awesome post…! 8-(
“In fact, al-Qaeda’s shura, or council, sharply debated whether the shock of attacking the World Trade Center and the Pentagon would be worth the probably loss of Afghanistan as a base, and ultimately was persuaded it was. …” — Jonathan Stevenson
He states as fact that AQ’s council debated the attack. Does he have proof of this? The FBI doesn’t seem to think it has sufficient evidence to connect bin Laden to 9/11. If Stevenson has that proof he should make it clear.
“The choice, crudely, seemed to be between negotiation with terrorists, perhaps yielding them victory, or furnishing bin Laden, at prohibitively high risk, with precisely the violent “clash of civilizations” that he wanted to power the apocalypse.” — Jonathan Stevenson
He says bin Laden “wanted” “the violent ‘clash of civilizations’…” “to power the apocalypse”. Has anyone anywhere before asserted bin Laden wanted to create an apocalypse? That sounds more like a Fundamentalist Christian idea. Has anyone shown evidence bin Laden wanted a clash of civilizations? The only thing I’ve read which was supposed to have come from bin Laden said he wanted to destroy America, iconic symbols like the WTC and Pentagaon (and perhaps Capitol) and the dollar (which is happening).
Does Stevenson provide convincing evidence for any of these powerful assertions?
When you are afraid then all you have is the paternalistic pro-war Republican dictators to protect you.
To think beyond the unthinkable is to put yourself in the middle of such anxiety that you can’t think rationally — making you entirely vulnerable.
Was 9/11 unthinkable? What about the idea that it was Americans who did it?
Is a nuclear war unthinkable? What about a nuke hitting NYC or Washington?
Is a depression unthinkable? What about world war stemming from it?
Is a plague like HIV AIDS unthinkable? What about a world-wide plague?
We can think about these things all you want and sink into that emotional pit, but it won’t help us move forward.
Fear is the mindkiller.