Rory O’Connor is not a conspiracy theorist. He knows the world is complicated, and there can be unintended consequences – but he also knows that there can indeed be plots. Shock Jocks traces the history of contemporary Talk Radio, which is almost invariably conservative.
The opening up of the public airwaves and the FCC’s abandonment of public service requirements, removal of restrictions on concentrated ownership and the disappearance of requirements for balance may have been the result of neoliberal pandering to sheer commercial greed as the motivating force for public good. However, since, for obvious reasons wealthy people want to stay that way and get richer, they are naturally conservative.
It may be objected that financial conservatism is not necessarily the same as social conservatism, which is a common characteristic of the right-talkers – except, as Rory points out, O’Reilly. However, it is difficult to mobilise masses for the right of a few very rich people to get even richer. Thomas Frank addressed how this works in Congress, but recently sentenced lobbyist Jack Abramoff's sidekick Scanlon gave a perfect battleplan for such campaigns.
“We plan to use three forms of communications to mobilize and win these battles. … Our mission is to get specifically selected groups of individuals to the polls to speak out AGAINST something. To that end, your money is best spent finding them and communicating with them on using the modes to which they are most likely to respond. Simply put, we want to bring out the wackos to vote against something and make sure the rest of the public lets the whole thing slip past them. The wackos get their information form [sic] the Christian right, Christian radio, mail, the internet, and telephone trees."
Talk radio is an integral part of this mechanism for rallying the troops, and it ties closely in an incestuous loop with the conservative bloggers in a protected fact-checker free environment.
As “Shock Jocks” was published, Jim Adkisson, a Tennessee aficionado of conservative talk shows, took their hosts' invective all too literally and shot up a "liberal" Unitarian Universalist congregation, killing two and wounding six congregants watching a children's musical. Caught up in a world of conservative talk radio, he reportedly expected to be able to carry on shooting unimpeded by the spineless, gay-loving pacifists, and was surprised when they tackled him and brought him down.
In keeping with a more reality-based liberal stereotype, the Rev. William Sinkford, national president of the Unitarian Universalists Association of Congregations, provocatively turned the other cheek. "This crime was the action of one man who clearly must have lost the battle with his personal demons," he said. "When I was asked if the shooter would go to hell, I replied that he must have been living in his own private hell for years."
Limbaugh has "remade American politics", according to Karl Rove, or is a "big fat liar" as Al Franken has called him, but as Rory points out, he is a consummate performer, convincing and funny.
The distilled essence of redneck prejudice is bound to appeal to an audience. Hell, if Father Coughlin, the anti-Semitic radio priest of the 1930s were around now, he would have an audience. And for many of the same reasons. There are indeed many people out there suffering financially who feel their plight is ignored and want to hit out at clear and identifiable targets.
Adkisson and other angry listeners are more often than not the victims of precisely those unregulated concentrations of capital that put Limbaugh on the air, Chinese goods on the shelves of Wal-Mart and them on welfare. With Democratic leaders too wary to bite the hands that write the contribution cheques, but also too residually honest to invent scapegoats, no wonder an incisive populism can win listeners.
Rory hints at some of the problems. “Liberal” or fact-based radio is always going to suffer from the big disadvantages of empathy and nuance. Remember Bush told his speechwriters he did not want them sneaking nuance into his speeches. It was taken as a sign of his low intellect, but in fact, it was politically very astute. There is a streak of Manichaeanism in American life that wants things in black and white, good and evil, cowboys and Indians, cops and robbers.
One explanation for the relative lack of popularity of “liberal” talk radio is that it is all too often dourly earnest and humourless, inhibited by a fear offending one or other hues of the rainbow coalition. Evil-minded, fact-free and malicious as Limbaugh is, he is a good performer with sense of humour that is wicked in senses ancient and modern.
I have been on O’Reilly’s show, and quite enjoyed it. Like all these hosts, he has a monstrous ego – but so do I and was quite happy to butt heads. I was told that Fox had an inquest after my first performance to find out who had booked a wild leftist on the show – and they decided it made good television – and O’Reilly was guaranteed the last word. As Rory points out, most of the so-called balanced shows like Hannity & Colmes, or indeed cross-fire, are as fixed as the World Wrestling matches.
The solution to audience figures and commercial success is no-holds barred genuine gladiatorial combat, with cut and thrust “liberals” who, after all, actually have the majority in their favor on issue after issue. There is no need to set up conservative straw dogs, the real ones are out there, just waiting to have the stuffing knocked out of them.
Rory’s book is essential reading for those of whose stomachs are not strong enough to listen round the clock to this stuff.
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Rory, Welcome to the Lake.
Ian, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
Thanks for the opportunity to chat with your community!
BTW, Ian, if you’re online yet, you were asking about Air America and the notion that liberals ‘just aren’t good at talk radio?”
Hello everybody, and welcome to our Salon, where we can discuss with Rory his book about talk radio, a subject much talked but little written about.
I’d like to kick off provocatively — is the market talking here. Is conservative talk radio much more successful than liberal competition because they are just better at it? What is the secret of Air America’s relative lack of success? Any answers Rory? Or anyone else?
Go ahead Rory… was slow getting the site up on the browser!
Rory, any comments or observations about the Shock Jocks during the two conventions?
Ian and Rory welcome to FDL.
For those of us who have not had a chance to read the book, just who are the worst Shock jocks?
Just from the cover pic, I’d say Limbaugh, O’Reilly, Hannity, Imus, Michael Savage, and “Dr” Laura. Who else is on the list?
There are two marketplaces talking here–the marketplace of ideas and that of commerce. On the commercial end, talk radio distribution is dominated by a handful of media companies. One result of this is the fact that more than ninety percent of all news and opinion talk radio programming tends to be conservative in nature.
And as a way to get in line with the next question, you mention that the shock jocks are actually funny, albeit crude. It reminded me of comedians like Dick Gregory, incisive funny and politically incorrect. Can we channel him? Are liberals just too, well liberal when it comes to being rude about the opposition?
Rush is of course the Godfather…the others in my Top Ten Worst list include Hannity, O’Reilly, Glenn Beck, Neal Boortz, Mark Levin, and Hugh Hewitt, along with the infamous Don Imus, Laura Ingraham –the only woman. and everyone’s least favorite shock jock, Michael Savage.
Hi Ian and Rory, Welcome to the Lake.
I’m not convinced there’s an audience that can support the gladitorial style radio combat you suggest. Do you really think liberals/progressives are interested in listening to this kind of radio broadcast?
Except Rachel Maddow, Robert Kennedy, Jr., Mike Papp. and a few others, imho.
Rory profiles ten of them, their history and current profile. You win a cigar Dakine 01 for your selections, Others include Neal Boorz, Glenn Beck, Mark Levin and Hugh Hewitt
With I assume Melanie Morgan just out of the top ten at 11?
Btw, that isn’t Dr. Laura but Laura Ingraham…and Ian, getting back to your earlier question, this speaks to the marketplace of ideas aspect. Many liberals on talk radio now may well incapable of being rude, as you suggest. Only a handful, for example–perhaps Randi Rhodes, some might say Mike Malloy or even Stephanie Miller — would qualify as ’shock jocks.” That doesn’t mean others couldn’t be found who are more outrageous, and it also doesn;t address the question of whether that is even desirable. I’m curious as to whether u and/or others fell it’s necessary to success on talk radio–and if so, why?
Elliott, the audience is the great public out there, not liberals and progressives. The dangerous thing about the Shock Jocks is how many non-conservatives listen. I’ve been on O’Reilly and have actually been disturbed by the people who saw me. What are you doing watching him, I ask?
There’s a basic dishonesty to the talk on the right; let’s face it, Rush Limbaugh is a big fat liar — and so are his pals.
I agree with your premise Elliot…a necessary ingredient to success is to be entertaining–but that doesn’t mean u have to dumb things down, dive into hateful speech, or call autistic children “idiots” and “morons” in order to get attention and ratings!
I’d love to go on BillO’s show–but he won’t have me, of course. In researching the book, I asked for interviews with each of the Top Ten Worst. They all declined. Subsequently they have refused to talk to me or about the book on their programs as well –consistent witht heir usual behavior of telling the guests they DO let on to “Shut up” and even turning off their mics…
libbyliberal,
we are not talking critics choice here, but the marketplace of “ideas” in which the right are winning the battle for audience share.
Rory, personally, being rude and abusive is not necessary, but being sharp and incisive is.
And Elliott, returning to your point, one of the points about a liberal world view is to accept that others may disagree, and may even occasionally have a point. That is the comparative advantage of liberalism, which is why we should invite the opposition onto any liberal show rather than singing to our own choir.
And Ian, how do you reply to liberal friends who ask why you are agreeing to appear on programs like The Factor and Faux News, in general?
BillO and the others are mostly bullies who can’t stand (or afford) to be challenged.
Don’t tell lil Mack Wrestling is fixed.
It would crush her.
Similarly, don’t tell the bulk of people that that problems and solutions could have nuance.
This the problem with framing things as Left and Right when they are more properly framed as reality and fantasy.
Which is my sometimes problem with Olbermann.
I wrote a piece for it in the Guardian, Rory, the same reason that I have written for Hustler (a how to desert to Canada guide), that is where the people we want to influence are, not the NYRB or the Nation.
I’m thinking like some of the commenters here that Liberally thinking people aren’t looking so much for entertainment. They want to be turned on by ideas that provoke thoughtfullness and maybe, going out on a limb here, soul searching.
I agree about the black/white theory. Perhaps too much of the audience just want to be told what to think. I’m thinking that’s why so many mega-churches are doing so well these days.
I listen to Washington Journal most mornings, and I’m overwhelmed by the authoritarian attitude of the R callers.
It makes me uncomfortable, but…what can I do?
But Libby is quire right in pointing out that there is a lot of talent now emerging on the progressive end. One of the chapters in my book looks at the history of liberal networks such as Air America, and details the best progressive alternative.
Also, it’s important to note that there ARE top-rated progressives. Within the Top 40 most listened to, we now find Randi Rhodes, Thom Hartmann, Ed Schultz,Stephanie Miller, and of course Alan COlmes–if u want to count him!
And Rachel Maddow has just successfully made the leap to televisions tar from her perch at AAR…
Mack, my point entirely. We come in from a factbased and fact checked viewpoint and can hold our own. Some shows I have been on are wannabee Shockjocklets who think they just have to scream and shout at me. I keep my cool and firmly put them down.
A LOT of people are also listening to Amy Goodman, Diane Rehm, Stephanie Miller, Cenk Uygur, and others. Also worth mentioning is the great Laura Flanders, whose GRIT TV appears right here on FDL. Check it out–I just taped a forthcoming segment with her which will “air” online soon.
Demi,
We tune into Amy Goodman to seek reinforcement and ammunition for our political outlook. We do not listen for the humor (although I did do a segment about rum with her!) But if we want to win the electoral battles, we have to have a formula that exposes Kansas to that information.
How about facts and opinions? One of the big problems I delineate in the book is the way that the right wing shock jocks blur the lines between the two, then sprinkle in some ‘jokes’ and a reference to “Ho’s’ or “slanty-eyed gooks…” they then say they were only “entertainers”–while claiming the First Amendment priviledge of “journalists’ thus having it both ways…
Rory,
One of the joys of clowns is watching them make pratfalls and getting custard pies. Bring them on to Air America and let’s do it!
I thought we were talking about radio? Now we’re winning electoral battles…one of the problems with liberal radio thus far–witness the Air America chapter in my book — is the tendency to try to ‘do radio’ while actually doing ‘politics.’ They are not the same thing–and confusing the two is a recipe for failure on the air!
Years ago I read a book by Eric Berne about transactional analysis. 3 ego states: parent, ego, child… and we talk to each other and answer from one of them.
And the interesting thing Berne points out with the child ego state is there is a dimension of that ego state called the “pig parent” in which the child ego state borrows the “authoritarian posture and tone” of the parent ego state, but is still a narcissistic, uncontrolled primitive child and ends up “enthralling” certain listeners with the tone of patriarchy and putting them into a codependent “child” ego state back to them. The “pig parent” is titillating and exciting and frightening … and that creates a toxic bond with certain people who can get obsessed with them.
Shock Jocks take on the power of the PIG PARENT child ego state. The know it all BULLY.
I think McCain and Palin slip into “pig parent”. I think Obama stays in “parent ego state” and that is partnership not patriarchal and less exciting and sexy. But healthier.
I agree a little more humor, exaggeration and entertainment might improve things!
Rory
Grab’em by their funny bone, or indeed their sense of grievance, and their hearts, minds and votes may follow. Do you think the Shock Jocks are radio first and right after? Which implies that their rightness is what makes their radio successful - a depressing thought?
I failed freshman Psych but I think I get what you mean–esp about the Shock Jocks as bullies. That’s precisely why they won’t engage me, as noted before. For example, (as mentioned in Shock Jocks) I went to high school with BillO. I know all his BS–including lying about where he grew up, how poor he was, etc… And he knows I know it–hence will never have me on his program, because his entire shtick might unravel.
I remember admiring Bill O on channel 3 when I watched him as a young earnest reporter in Hartford, CT. Then, years later… I am blinking. Is that the same guy???? Was he that way in high school? Have I got the wrong guy?
Great question, Ian. I think the best of them are radio first, by all means. Say what you will about Rush Limbaugh–he’s undeniably a great entertainer. He’s so good it makes me wonder why he feels the need to get down into the shock jock ditch of calling women ‘feminazis” and so on…
There’s a (I think) now retired DJ from Boston who always managed to mix humor with an apparent liberal attitude who would be good at things. Charles Laquidara on WBCN morning drivetime with The Big Mattress Show.
Let’s put it this way - he was able to keep Howard Stern out of Boston for a number of years.
Actually one of things I noticed on appearing on these shows on TV was that they have a bunch of post-adolescent youths in the payroll of some right wing think tank, who are sloppily dressed and know zip past their talking points.
That’s why I always wear a suit and tie, and use my best authoritative British accent, (not my native Liverpudlian) so that I appear like the ur-authority school principal, bank manager guy.
If you admired him, you’ve probably got the wrong guy!
:)
Seriously he was a blowhard in high school…I also worked with him at WCVB-TV in Boston, where he was almost universally despised by his co-workers as a blowhard –but already loved by Murdoch’s local tabloid, the Herald, which promptly gave him a column where he could practice to be a…well, u get my drift
I do not know how some of these folks even qualify as commentators. Laura Ingraham’s only strength is sarcastic disparaging of everything where she may disagree. Hannity is close behind although he occ. throws in a fact. What is the appeal of one insult, marginal lie after another?
And Randi Rhodes is pretty close on this score. She was the first person I heard suggest that the Chief Justice is gay. She presented nothing more than an opinion with no comment to back it up.
Is this what we want from our political debate?
Yes I knew Charles well. BCN was a great station once–pre Howard Stern. Also on air there were the likes of my business partner at Globalvision, Danny Schechter the “News Dissector,” the estimable Howard Zinn, and even me at one time doing political ‘rockommentaries.’
Its going to be good to have two liberal news/infotainment shows on MSNBC. We must be sure to watch Rachel’s show.
That was a twofer - getting rid of assclown closeted Abrams(R) and replacing him with Rachel Maddow. She is very sharp.
Is is often difficult to rebut Republican Arguments b/c they are so a) prevalent in general b) widely dispersed c)faxed talking points on message d)carefully crafted in Rove and Newt’s workshop e) wrapped in rhetorical devices that must first be disassembled f) Republican Blowhards will literally shout over you and/or outshout you or turn off your mic
Maddow is usually excellent. She seemed to have a hard time with Pukecannon at the convention. One reason was that she made the mistake of trying to respect the host while Loudmouth Pukecannon typically shouted over the host - dominating her and everyone else.
The anger drum beat is a strong one… hearing the “drill, baby, drill” chant at the Repub convention.
Free-floating anger. And anger is an exciting channel to communicate on. Even Rev. Wright used it, though it backfired on Obama.
And Don Imus’ few seconds of chastisement was about advertising revenue being threatened and sports heroines. That was an unusual perfect storm for justice … for a few seconds.
So little accountability. And corporate-America has so little to do with the common good …. I just read where product placement is beginning to happen to teenage girl’s books… so our young reader will go out and buy the same CoverGirl say lipstick as her heroine. Where have all the ethics gone?
Rory, you and Danny have both tried to put some oomph in from the left in terms of the electronic media, but we come back to the chicken and egg thing. How much are the networks ideologically driven, and how much is commercial. Do they book the right because they want to boost it, or because boosting it boosts their bottom line and gets them access in Washington?
if we had a motivated majority in Congress, would Rupe have a change of heart the way he did with Blair and now seems to be doing with Obama?
I really concur about Randi, For example, I thought AAR blew it when they didn’t summarily fire her after she called Hillary Clinton a “whore.” It’s not acceptable when Imus does it, and it isn’t acceptable when ‘progressives’ do it, imho.
Having worked at CBS News, I have a little experience with the networks, at least the television ones. I do not believe they are largely driven so much by ideology as by their commercial interests. that’s why the recipe I propose in Shock Jocks for combating hate speech is not to censor the likes of Michael Savage, but to take them on in the marketplace–with protests and demonstrations at the stations that carry them, with boycotts of their sponsors — and yes, ultimately with competition on the airwaves.
I would not say product placement was an innovation. it’s actually difficult to buy kids books that are not tie ins with Hollywood and TV.
Now Buchanan is a case in point about occasionally being right. On some aspects of foreign policy he is more correct than half the Dems in Congress as indeed was Ron Paul!. So do we disagree with the person or the ideas. Once again, the conservative response is to hate the thinker. We accept a common humanity and citizenship and disagree with the thought, but needn’t excommunicate the thinker.
There was an old movie called “Gentlemen’s Agreement” with Gregory Peck about anti-Semitism. And at one point a Jewish character confronts Peck and his girl-friend and asks them when they are at the Country Club and someone makes a tasteless joke, do they challenge the jokester or do the shuffled uncomfortably and look away and say nothing.
There is a hard line. That old joke about how many feminists does it take to change a light bulb? The answer is “That is not funny!” put down of the over-seriousness of feminists. And yet disrespect, chronic disrespect, desensitizes cruelty in the ears of people.
I know someone who seems to adore Colbert, but I am beginning to believe it is Colbert’s persona, not his actual, progressive self!
It’s important to recognize successes, I think. Sure, Imus is back on the air now–but he was publicly shamed, OFF both radio and television for months, a national debate erupted over important issues around both race and gender –and Imus is at least a little bit chastened, although it IS true he got back into trouble with more racially charged remarks of late. Which of course was quite predictable–and in fact i did predict it in my chapter called “The Resurrection of Don Imus.”
That is very profound. But that takes time and information and critical thinking. But in our sound-bitten, ADD culture, hard to sort it all out. Especially when MSM divvies up the time between the left and the right so neatly?
Cronyism seems to be such a recipe for partisanship and grid-lock.
And immigration…such a complicated issue. As well as energy and climate change.
But the Shock Jocks do put the issues on the table. The same way Jon Stewart and Colbert teach the audience what is really going on sometimes.
What would be truly objectionable would be the ‘joke’ question “How many feminazis does it take to change a light bulb?”
I was always so amazed at the respectful heavy hitters that he had access to on his early morning tv/radio show. Andrea Mitchell handing Alan the phone as Alan trying to brush his teeth. Hello? He had clout and audience, or what? I was kind of repelled by him, his gruffness and meanness, though nothing like Howard Stern who made me nuts. Imus called things as he saw them, with anger. That fearlessness and bravado. And loved it when our views coincided … a zinger for BushCo.
Speaking of immigration–and I’m glad you brought it up — I’m often asked if the right wing shock jocks are ‘really that powerful?” I respond by pointing them to the chapter in my book about the aborted attempt at bi-partisan immigration reform — supported by a sitting Republican conservative President, and the leaders of both parties in both house of Congress — which was effectively killed by the organized power of the shock jocks, along with certain other, more reasonable conservative talkers, such as Mike Gallagher.
How. Yeah, I see the difference. That line.
Dam BCN memories shit when I grew up there in Boston WBCN was the best station for music….
I was on the Cavuto show once during the Hurricane season and told him straightfaced that God was sending a message to the Blue States, stop supporting Bush on Climate Change. I was quite surprised that no thunderbolts hit… maybe they thought I was an evangelist. But we need broad brush strokes.. hurricanes lining up across the Atlantic to hit the confederacy is too good a point to miss… no need to get all scientific about it.
Pat is an obnoxious xenophobe and a racist. His arguments in favor of isolationist styled policies have some merit, but he is mostly a Chauvinist loudmouthed boor and a lying liar like Limbaugh.
Throw him out with the bathwater in this case. It would be ok to keep him if Pat would tell the truth (call it what it is) about the Socialist aspects of American government with regard to the bailout of Financial Institutions and Airlines. And the Fascist aspects of government contracts for big business war profiteers.
Pat doesn’t even come close to telling the truth.
The Imus enablers from Big Politics and Big Media –such as Greenspan, Andrea Mitchell, Frank Rich, John Kerry, John McCain and –everyone’s favorite! — Joe Lieberman went slumming on Imus, ignoring his hate speech in exchange for access to his audience. He is also, as noted in my book, known for his ability to sell more books than anyone besides Oprah–which may also explain why people who should know better–such as CNN/WaPo media critic Howie Kurtz!
sorry that was a reply to Libbyliberal’s post 52!
Last time I listened they were broadcasting the Patriots game? Nothing’s no good no more…
This is truly sobering. Yeah, Bush had potential in this area.
So who was behind the drumbeat and its intensity to kill the legisliation? Just generic yahoo xenophobia on part of jocks and audience … or corporate/neocon conspiracy …. or …. wow…something I can’t blame Bush for?
Uh, that would be the Red states would it not?
But he was interesting when paired with Rachel Maddow as MSNBC analysts…
I ALWAYS get those two confused!
:)
Wasn’t it the late Tim Russert who brought those into the lexicon?
Rory, how are FCC rules and media / radio station ownership driving the Shock Jock messages?
For my many sins, I have just been reviewing Pat B’s huge tome on why the Brits should have kissed and made up with Hitler. Right back to Father Coughlin. But his points about offshoring will resonate. They need reclaiming, while Dem front benchers preach the unalloyed benefits of globalization. Let’s have some Left populism here!
Rory @ 55
That was about immigration issue to Rory, my last comment. Who did kill the legislation?
Good that the republicans angered and alienated non-cuban latinos. Lets hope they remember on election day.
Not sure about Russert but the easiest way for me to recall them is to think of the irony of the anti-commie Rs being tagged with the “Red” identifier
Dakine, you are of course right. I got it right at the time, but remember in our European tradition red is the good guys, Labour and Left and Blue is Tory. Sometimes my ancestral memories slip in!
Speaking of Tim Russert, maybe the shock jocks have such an audience due to the “lap dog” demeanor of the mainstream media? I just read an article in Harper’s by Lapham about how Tim was like an “attentive headwaiter” in dealing with the celebrity politicians. Everything was off the record. He said he was “as infatuated with A-list celebrities as Charlie Rose.”
Not enough Hersches, or Amy Goodmans, or Helen Thomases around. Maybe that also encourages people to take their anger to sympatico angry people.
Well those of us in the colonies do tend to do things backward from the Mother country just because doncha know…
So who was behind the drumbeat? Rush & Co orchestrated the entire thing. Why? It played well for them, drove up their ratings by ginning up what u refer to as “generic yahoo xenophobia,” got them attention from the MSM they purport to despise yet masterfully manipulate, and sent a message about their power to the entire country. What more could they want? But corporate/neocon conspiracy? I think not…
If you want a distilled essence of Shock Jock try reading Corsi on Obama nation. It’s a quantum smear where he manages to rationally dismiss allegations even as he keeps them in circulation, and on Hackworth’s point, Corsi complains that there are loads of illegal Hispanic immigrants here with no intention of applying for citizenship! Go figure.
Ian - thank you and welcome
Rory - Welcome to the Lake !
Rush made his bones with Clinton. we are quite likely looking at a Dem President and Dem Majority in Congress - it’s gonna be a veritable renaissance for these pukes come January, making them more entrenched if that’s possible.
I think there are plenty of people right here in Left Blogistan who would make wonderful, sharp, incredibly funny ‘gladiators’ - lots of ‘em with the ability to snark on their feet and not just at the keyboard
I don’t know the answer to the market question as it is somewhat skewed by ownership in the hands of real ideologues(Clear Channel & Murdoch)
Another way to remember the color thing. Red is the power color.
I find this topic fascinating,’causes it encourages me to Think. I studied communication in school, so…yeah. Psychology, Sociology…Love it.
Thanks for bringing this discussion to the Lake today.
In the last few years, our educational system has given us way too many badly educated people, people who don’t have the ability to think clearly. There are way too many people who can’t move from the talking point to the next question: how does that point fit in with everything else I know, or that you have said. The inability to ask the next question, and the belief that asking the next question is somehow wrong, are the only reasons these people can stay in business. The shock jocks have made people believe that politics is a game, and the only thing that matters is the talking point, not the discussion that clarifies.
People who do ask the next question think these shock jocks are stupid and won’t listen, and can’t believe anyone could be persuaded by them.
So Rory,
when we discussed things earlier, you discounted the role of the blogosphere in supporting and enhancing the power of ShockJockery. I think that they worked together in the perfect shit-storm of the swift boating. I suspect that some on the Left are selective in their reading. I get Human Events, Newsmax, WorldNet News and so on and on and on - all well funded, and quite professional - and acting as research departments for the SJ’s.. Are you sure they can be discounted?
What did you think of that movie a while back, Talk Radio, with Eric … what’s his name? I loved the Alec Baldwin character from the corporate darkness… who ended up recruiting the character when you thought he was blowing it because of his reckless self-destructive power.
Also, what is this thing with “brands”. What does that mean? It feels like “branding” is a commercialization of groups. Or is it more realistic, not hiding the “selling” of a president or a party?
Regarding the FCC, its rules and media / radio station ownership — at the moment the Shock Jocks are jointly messaging–along with their counterparts at websites and magazines such as NewsMax, WND, and so on — about the supposed return soon under a Democratic Administration and Congress of an old FCC rule called the Fairness Doctrine, which was aimed at ensuring substantial and fair public debate on the public airwaves over issues of important national concern. they are framing this as an attempt to “kill conservative talk radio” and to “Hush Rush” by forcing him and others off the air.
Of course, the Fairness Doctrine is NOT slated to return–but a Democratic administration would undoubtedly work for more diversity on the airwaves, probably by encouraging more local ownership and less media consolidation.
Not that the Dems track record on such amtters is anything for either the conservatives OR the corporations to worry about! Remember the Clinton/Gore era Telecommunications Act of 1996?
My grandmother always told me not to speak ill of the dead–but attentive headwaiter seems like an apt description of the late Mr. Russert.
I do remember the Telecom Act of 1996 and the 1986 DeRegulation. Worked as a Telecom Mgr for the Feds for 20 yrs, including spectrum management. Ouch.
I think I may be prone to conspiracy thinking for comfort, ironically. Thinking there is some control and design out there in the universe, even if a malignant one, rather than shadenfreud, random anarchy from power-money driven egoists … amorally sabotaging anything they can. Just because it is there.
cbl2
I am sure there are lot’s of rapier-like riposters out there, but I remember speaking to one of the original founders of AAR and being told that they would never consider having the right on the network. So who is going to be on the other side?
Masaccio, as someone brought up in the UK, I am continually amazed by the binary nature of American politics. It’s as bad as Liverpool versus Manchester United sometimes.Even though the parties are (or rather were :)) far more ideologically differentiated over in Europe, there was an acceptance of the idea of a LOYAL opposition which the right here does not get.
Okay, what do you guys think about Sarah Pallin branding and the world of the shock jocks? What can we expect?
It’s not so much that the role of the blogosphere in supporting and enhancing the power of ShockJockery should be discounted as understood. they DO work together–but on the right it’s talk radio that leads the way, and the blogs follow. On the left, it appears to be the other way–sites of FDL, DK etc actually lead the messaging and discussion, and the weaker radio element then follows.
An interesting discussion topic would be WHY this is the case. For example, talk on a well-known progressive Google Group on this topic usually devolves into the netroots people saying the left should cede talk radio to the right, because they do it so much better, and because it’s really ‘not our audience’. Which is precisely what the people I spoke to on the right said! Obviously I disagree-and am not willing to write off tens of millions of people who listen to talk radio and leave the playing field to the shock jocks.
tell us more!
I remember when “rush” first hit the airwaves, man everyone here in new york absolutely hated him, he could NOT get sponsers
then, before he was ever profitable clear channel sent him national, what a frigging joke
and then I heard people actually repeating his rubbish as if it were factual, I would always point out, if rush said it that meant it was almost always NOT true, inspite of him claiming he was “documented as being 95 percent correct”
and then the politicians saw that rush could actually effect elections, could actually get them elected, that he could actually effect policy and make people vote against themselves, that he could actually get law passed
and so the corporate world started to advertise on the show and you all know the rest of the story
I remember the clip before he became a big deal, a clip of him on the TEEvee, man he was not only awful, he was a disgusting image to see, he could not handle the audience and he was sweating like a pig
how the hell do these dweebs like rush and rove get this kind of play, how the hell do these dweebs get rednecks to respect them
wonders, wonderment to peeps like myself
So do the shock jocks start their day with Matt Drudge, too, or does he tune THEM in?
They are all already incredibly on message about her — and I expect that to continue as a lovefest until the election. The more interesting piece of this, however, is their total LACK of affection for John McChange–who they denounced as ‘too liberal” and distrust intensely because of his deviations from Rep orthodoxy on a few issues, such as immigration and campaign finance reform≥
Either way, they’re on the same wavelength! The truly frightening thing is how the legacy MSM THEN take their headlines from the right!
Usually when I investigate what looks like a conspiracy, I find that it is people being unbelievably stupid. It is almost comforting to assume that our Lords and Mistresses are in contact with reality even if we disagree with them!
But the Clinton Gore airwave handover, and the bending of the rules to allow Rupe to amass his empire … so stupid and predictable in their results!And lot’s of people told them so.
As for branding… see what’s happening to Sarah Palin at the moment. I would like to see if the SJ;s still put as much faith in the National Enquirer as they did over Edwards!
Rush went from being on the outside and representing himself as giving voice to the voiceless and victimized. The irony is he succeeded so well that he became an ultimate INSIDER, as you say–even sleeping in the Lincoln Bedroom in the WH…That’s why I predict he is now trying to return to his roots by attacking McCain. That way–no matter who gets elected–the President will be “too liberal” and he can get back to being a victim!
And what was their payoff? What were they thinking?
And got any hope for us today?????? Am buying the book, but I want to find hope in last chapter, please, please, please.
Talk Radio = passive listening.
Sites like FDL do have a lot of lurkers, or so I’ve heard, but there is the opportunity for dialogue. Me love yakking. :)
re matt drudge … feels like the MSM is following the ultimate follower. How ironic.
I want to play the race card here.
When AAR launched in NY it displaced WLIB, a black station. Now one of the most persistently progressive sectors of radio here in the USA is black radio. Whenever I have been on it has been great and energizing radio. It is far more progressive, indeed more social democratic than liberal. It is a very solid base on which to build… yet AAR did little or nothing to cater for the WLIB audience they were displacing.
How can progressive radio engage this lively and committed audience? Or are we as subconsciously segregated as the right on this?
Yes, but sometimes you get really stupid people involved in a conspiracy…such as the Telecommunications Act of 1996. In exchange for just millions in campaign support, the Dems gave away billions in deregulation. And all we got was this lousy t-shirt!
What a shame… My nephew is out here doing Bat Area a project for his pharma company and loving the hot weather here currently 99. Do tyou still there and if so where???
Policy with Clinton always came cheap. Half a million for supporting CANF Cuba policy, half a million from United Fruit to launch a banana case at the WTO that threatened to bankrupt the Caribbean, and so on…
Interesting. Time to walk the walk in terms of unity. What is difference between a social democrat and a liberal?
Fear not,Libby–there IS hope. Chapter Six= “Progressive Alternatives.” And the Conclusion, called “Beyond Changing The Channel” delves into some proposed citizen responses to hate, and also points to some great resources for combating it. Don’t despair–exercise YOUR free speech to denounce hate speech wherever and whenever you encounter it–esp on the public airwaves that you and I own!
you got a shirt out of the deal?
the deal cost me my shirt
I heard ATT threw a lot of great parties for both conventions. Hmmmmm. Selling out the constitution? Priceless.
Bay Area… shit multi tasking…
AAR is not something to look to as a model. Only a few people emerged from there. Rachel Maddow and Sam Seder… but even Sam gets little play.
Thom Hartman needs more air and face time.
yet AAR did little or nothing to cater for the WLIB audience they were displacing.
Oops. That wasn’t inclusive or smart marketing strategy. You mean the Left has huge egos too? Duhhhhh.
Currently sitting in my home in Harlem, NYC, watching a fierce tropical storm out the window. But I’m about to move back to Cambridge for four months for a fellowship, so it will be interesting to check out the local media. They have their own homegrown shock jocks up in Boston now!
I suppose in current terms, it’s like agnostic and atheist, a euphemism for the other for those weak of heart. BTW I terminally upset Katrina at the Nation when I corrected Bill O’R on his show when he called the mag. Liberal. No it’s not I said, it’s socialist!
LOL
the problem was the advertisers wouldn’t spend the money even though there was the traffic, why would a telecom advertise on a station that told everyone what the telecoms were doing, why would an oil company
it wasn’t about success, the hosts had incredible success, but the advertisers would (and should) boycot their dollars
AAR is important to study–but as much for what they did wrong and didn’t do as for their successes–altho they have had a few, and I’m hopeful that the new head guy Charlie Kireker might still turn things around both financially and in terms of ratings. So let’s not count AAR out just yet–they have at least developed a brand name!
I have been bring it up as a negative role model in several ways, and the WLIB oppportunity is one seriously missed — and indeed I suppose the Spanish speaking media is another important one where immigrant bashers and xenopohobes can be challenged succesfully.
Okay. May read it from back to front!
Recently my tv blew and I am taking a break from television and have turned to radio, mostly npr and wnyc in NY with Brian Lehrer and Leonard Lopate and BBC and air america, especially Maddow and Ring of Fire. Love getting more thorough coverage of world news, not just politics, though it is grim. But I like the calmness and lack of advertising and intelligence and less “gotcha” journalism. And when I hear shock-jockish lefties on air america I change the channel.
I do miss Olbermann, Maddow, Moyers, Stewart and Colbert, but for now it is enlightening. (also accomplished my withdrawal from L&Os.)
I found a clip of rush’s first appearance on sajak
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNK4byQkn7w
watch the man sweat
both shirt jokes, a hoot!
The Nation is socialist? Would that it were… I’d peg it on the left/liberal Democratic wing–of the Democratic Party
Oh my, the connotations! I am still hanging onto “liberal” … progressive strikes me as a surrender.
Well, when I heard that KvH was upset about it, I passed along the message that if she were to put it in writing I would be happy to pass the message along to several very generous sponsors who wrote checks thinking it was!
There isn’t a lot of communication between either African-American radio such as WLIB OR Spanish-language radio anywhere–a real missed opportunity for sure. For example, has any one in ‘progressive’ (white?) radio covered the assaults against attorney Isabel Garcia going onnow in Tucson from a locak SJ called Jon Justice on an FM talker that calls itself “The Truth?” Justice has called for ‘bloodshed in the polls” on air…For more details, please see my book blog at shockjocks.org… but yes, the Spanish speaking media is an important ally in challenging immigrant bashers and xenopohobes. So why isn’t this happening?
Can you get even more specific with an example maybe?
It’s interesting how words don’t mean, people do.
Now, to me the word progressive sounds more pro-active.
maybe there is a little truth in the accusations of liberal intellectual elitism?
Great clip of Rush–man, u r fast!
Yeah, one definition of a ‘progressive’ is a ‘liberal’ who actually does something!
Yeah, and “progress” is a hopeful word.
OMG. It sounds like you have an open mind. May I buy you a non-fat chocko latte? Thought provoking, entertaining and humorous. You da winna.
Rory, Thank you for stopping by the Lake today and spending the afternoon with us discussing your great book.
Ian, Thank you for hosting this great Book Salon.
Everyone, if you haven’t bought this book yet, there is a link above.
Thanks all.
thanks
the struggle is balancing open-mindedness against vacuity. A perennial problem for some kinds of liberalism! :)
Best recent example was when Michael Savage said that both autism and childhood asthma were “rackets,” and denounced the children who suffered from them as “morons” and “putzes.” Angry listeners demonstrated at local stations that carry in major markets such as NYC and San Francisco; some advertisers pulled their support; at least ten stations dropped the program.
Here’s another–when the Tennessee church shootings happened recently, a church member wrote an Op-Ed piece for Newsday exploring whether hate speech by shock jocks played a role in the killings. She was later ambushed in her driveway by Bill O’Reilly’s minions–but before he could air the piece, Olbermann hailed her Op-Ed and denounced BillO–again–as the “Worst Person of the Week.”
Time to call a halt!
Thank you all, and Rory for a rich and stimulating discussion. And while we are on rich, don’t forget that right wing authors reach the bestseller lists through bulk purchases by rich foundations. Don’t let Rory down. Buy the book!
Thank you. This was great and looking forward to book and hearing more from you in future!!!!
And my thanks to the FDL community for having me! For more, please go to www.shockjocks.org
Great clip, perris….watched half… going back to finish. :)
Of course there is truth to the story of liberal intellectual elitism. Just look at my comment at 79.
Rory, Ian, Bev and all pups,
Thanks to all. What a lovely chat on a beautiful afternoon.
Study up before you get here.
96.9 WTKK has hired out of town ubergeeks who make big money telling us how “normal” Sarah Palin is and how hypocritical we are to ask about five, make that six kids under seventeen - plus that great new hockey husband - and a few legal problems in Alaska who’s just dying to run the Vice President’s office.
One of them calls his listeners the Best and Brightest. Yup. Yup.
this was great fun, thanx all, will be ordering this book pronto
Thank you Rory and Ian for a most stimulating conversation!
This is so true. The capacity to do critical thinking.
And I am ashamed of so many years I turned to a trusted pundit to distill information for me. It has taken me a long time to appreciate the potential for “kool aid” drinking getting info second hand. FDL big help in exploring angles of issues. I am still a knee-jerk liberal about too many things. A lazy liberal. But trying to walk the walk… baby steps.
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