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	<title>Comments on: Ramsey County&#8217;s Contempt For Justice: Tell Them To Stop The Torture And Restore The Rule Of Law</title>
	<atom:link href="http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/03/ramsey-countys-contempt-for-justice-tell-them-to-stop-the-torture-and-restore-the-rule-of-law/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/03/ramsey-countys-contempt-for-justice-tell-them-to-stop-the-torture-and-restore-the-rule-of-law/</link>
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		<title>By: Kirk James Murphy, M.D.</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/03/ramsey-countys-contempt-for-justice-tell-them-to-stop-the-torture-and-restore-the-rule-of-law/#comment-1615006</link>
		<dc:creator>Kirk James Murphy, M.D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 06:14:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/03/ramsey-countys-contempt-for-justice-tell-them-to-stop-the-torture-and-restore-the-rule-of-law/#comment-1615006</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;kimm, I share your concern.  Yet with letters like greenhaper’s and the calls and emails other folk are sending, I know we’re not letting this slide: we’re putting on the breaks.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If your time tonight allows, you can leave messages at the numbers above (an ask the human on the other end of the line at the jail to respect the inmates’ humanity).&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Thursday morning, as your time allows, you can call when everyone’s back at work.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The Bushies thought — wrongly — they could slide the Constitution, the Republic, and the Rule of Law off a cliff.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;We’re stopping them and we’re NOT being silent: please add your voice to ours.  When enough of us speak, they won’t need to wait for a 3 AM phone call: their consciences won’t allow them to sleep.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>kimm, I share your concern.  Yet with letters like greenhaper’s and the calls and emails other folk are sending, I know we’re not letting this slide: we’re putting on the breaks.</p>
<p>If your time tonight allows, you can leave messages at the numbers above (an ask the human on the other end of the line at the jail to respect the inmates’ humanity).</p>
<p>Thursday morning, as your time allows, you can call when everyone’s back at work.</p>
<p>The Bushies thought — wrongly — they could slide the Constitution, the Republic, and the Rule of Law off a cliff.</p>
<p>We’re stopping them and we’re NOT being silent: please add your voice to ours.  When enough of us speak, they won’t need to wait for a 3 AM phone call: their consciences won’t allow them to sleep.</p>
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		<title>By: kimm</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/03/ramsey-countys-contempt-for-justice-tell-them-to-stop-the-torture-and-restore-the-rule-of-law/#comment-1614983</link>
		<dc:creator>kimm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 05:59:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/03/ramsey-countys-contempt-for-justice-tell-them-to-stop-the-torture-and-restore-the-rule-of-law/#comment-1614983</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I cannot believe this is still happening.  Makes me keep thinking about those “It’s 3am” campaign commercials…isn’t this one of those times, being that our citizens(consumers) &amp; journalists(really?) are clearly under attack, that someone, somewhere should be making one of those calls?  If this one slides, we are officially living in a police state.  The silence is scary.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I cannot believe this is still happening.  Makes me keep thinking about those “It’s 3am” campaign commercials…isn’t this one of those times, being that our citizens(consumers) &amp; journalists(really?) are clearly under attack, that someone, somewhere should be making one of those calls?  If this one slides, we are officially living in a police state.  The silence is scary.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Welsh</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/03/ramsey-countys-contempt-for-justice-tell-them-to-stop-the-torture-and-restore-the-rule-of-law/#comment-1614944</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Welsh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 05:39:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/03/ramsey-countys-contempt-for-justice-tell-them-to-stop-the-torture-and-restore-the-rule-of-law/#comment-1614944</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Very well done mail greenharper.  I especially like the reminder that this will come back to haunt her later as she’s a dem and dems don’t like this shit.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very well done mail greenharper.  I especially like the reminder that this will come back to haunt her later as she’s a dem and dems don’t like this shit.</p>
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		<title>By: Kirk James Murphy, M.D.</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/03/ramsey-countys-contempt-for-justice-tell-them-to-stop-the-torture-and-restore-the-rule-of-law/#comment-1614939</link>
		<dc:creator>Kirk James Murphy, M.D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 05:37:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/03/ramsey-countys-contempt-for-justice-tell-them-to-stop-the-torture-and-restore-the-rule-of-law/#comment-1614939</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Bless your work and your upholding the Rule of Law, greenharper.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Thank you.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;You have left me weeping with gratitude.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bless your work and your upholding the Rule of Law, greenharper.</p>
<p>Thank you.</p>
<p>You have left me weeping with gratitude.</p>
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		<title>By: greenharper</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/03/ramsey-countys-contempt-for-justice-tell-them-to-stop-the-torture-and-restore-the-rule-of-law/#comment-1614928</link>
		<dc:creator>greenharper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 05:10:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/03/ramsey-countys-contempt-for-justice-tell-them-to-stop-the-torture-and-restore-the-rule-of-law/#comment-1614928</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks for all the information!  Here’s what I just emailed to prosecutor Gaertner at &lt;a href=&quot;mailto:RCA@co.ramsey.mn.us:&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;RCA@co.ramsey.mn.us:&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The Honorable Susan Gaertner&lt;br /&gt;
Ramsey County Attorney&lt;br /&gt;
PO Box 64326&lt;br /&gt;
St. Paul, Minnesota 55164-0326&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Dear Ms. Gaertner:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I am a retired U.S. Department of Justice prosecutor.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;As General Counsel of the INTERPOL U.S. National Central Bureau (1997-1999) I worked closely with the FBI, the Secret Service, and most other federal law enforcement agencies.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I am also an active fellow Democrat.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Obviously lawless actions by law enforcement personnel videotaped near the Republican National Convention, and which witnesses report as occurring in the Ramsey County Jail, concern me deeply.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;These include:  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;    *  using tear gas on children attending an SEIU event with their families; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;    *  torture, with repeated electroshocks (usually 50,000 volts each, I believe) of an unresisting demonstrator named Jason, whom police also beat and to whom they denied medical treatment (I saw a video of Jason when police had him down and restrained on the street, with an observer protesting that Jason was not resisting); &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;    *  denying medical treatment to a young man named Elliot Hughes, who spit up blood all night in Ramsey County Jail from thoracic trauma after police stomped on his chest (this is cruel; it could also prove fatal);&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;     *  about a dozen officers entering Elliot Hughes’s cell in the Ramsey County Jail and attacking Hughes with Taser, chemical weapons, and beatings after he’d mentioned not having had food for 12 hours; and&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;     *  using chemical weapons known to cause respiratory arrest, permanent brain damage, and even death in those with pulmonary disease.  (Asthma is a nasty pulmonary disease.  It is common among Americans.  I have it.)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;None of this could be imposed as a sentence for someone convicted in an American court.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Yet the police are doing it in Ramsey County, on your watch, to Americans entitled to a presumption of innocence.   I would hate to think that you are indifferent to it.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The potential for civil liability seems very clear.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;So is the potential for publicity highly damaging to Ramsey Country.  It’s your jail, after all.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Furthermore, such police abuse can scarcely help your own campaign for any higher office.  Most Democrats and Independents are appalled by what police are doing in St. Paul.  Many Republicans are appalled, too.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Even after police have seized numerous cameras and laptops (and without probable cause, as far as I know), there yet are countless videos.  Call it the Twitter Effect.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Numerous such videos show black-clad police (Blackwater, too?) in riot gear and on horseback on Ramsey County streets.  The police are terrifying peaceful people, manhandling women and men who offer no resistance, and obviously arresting them without probable cause.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Victims include medics, and credentialled reporters (e.g., Amy Goodman, Sharif Abdel Kouddous, and Nicole Salazar of the fine program, Democracy Now!).  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The victims, and thus those in the Ramsey County Jail, are almost certainly Americans.  Most if not all were merely exercising their 1st Amendment rights.  That’s no crime.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Obviously, I support arresting and prosecuting those who damage property or hurt others.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;But in videotapes of arrests I have seen, the only violence — and there is a lot — is by police.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Please therefore exert all of your authority and persuasiveness to restrain police operating in Ramsey County from &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;    *  arresting without articulable probable cause;&lt;br /&gt;
    *  torturing arrestees with pepper spray and tear gas, with Tasers, and by beating them;&lt;br /&gt;
    *  preventing arrestees’ consultation with attorneys;  and&lt;br /&gt;
    *  denying medical care to arrestees.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And please exercise your prosecutorial discretion to dismiss promptly &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;    *  all charges against reporters doing their jobs; and&lt;br /&gt;
    *  all charges for which you lack solid probable cause.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;This will undoubtedly include most, if not all, of the felony ‘conspiracy to riot’ charges.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If we Americans abandon the Rule of Law, what are we?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Sincerely,&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for all the information!  Here’s what I just emailed to prosecutor Gaertner at <a href="mailto:RCA@co.ramsey.mn.us:" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="mailto:RCA@co.ramsey.mn.us">RCA@co.ramsey.mn.us</a>:</p>
<p>The Honorable Susan Gaertner<br />
Ramsey County Attorney<br />
PO Box 64326<br />
St. Paul, Minnesota 55164-0326</p>
<p>Dear Ms. Gaertner:</p>
<p>I am a retired U.S. Department of Justice prosecutor.  </p>
<p>As General Counsel of the INTERPOL U.S. National Central Bureau (1997-1999) I worked closely with the FBI, the Secret Service, and most other federal law enforcement agencies.  </p>
<p>I am also an active fellow Democrat.</p>
<p>Obviously lawless actions by law enforcement personnel videotaped near the Republican National Convention, and which witnesses report as occurring in the Ramsey County Jail, concern me deeply.</p>
<p>These include:  </p>
<p>    *  using tear gas on children attending an SEIU event with their families; </p>
<p>    *  torture, with repeated electroshocks (usually 50,000 volts each, I believe) of an unresisting demonstrator named Jason, whom police also beat and to whom they denied medical treatment (I saw a video of Jason when police had him down and restrained on the street, with an observer protesting that Jason was not resisting); </p>
<p>    *  denying medical treatment to a young man named Elliot Hughes, who spit up blood all night in Ramsey County Jail from thoracic trauma after police stomped on his chest (this is cruel; it could also prove fatal);</p>
<p>     *  about a dozen officers entering Elliot Hughes’s cell in the Ramsey County Jail and attacking Hughes with Taser, chemical weapons, and beatings after he’d mentioned not having had food for 12 hours; and</p>
<p>     *  using chemical weapons known to cause respiratory arrest, permanent brain damage, and even death in those with pulmonary disease.  (Asthma is a nasty pulmonary disease.  It is common among Americans.  I have it.)</p>
<p>None of this could be imposed as a sentence for someone convicted in an American court.  </p>
<p>Yet the police are doing it in Ramsey County, on your watch, to Americans entitled to a presumption of innocence.   I would hate to think that you are indifferent to it.</p>
<p>The potential for civil liability seems very clear.  </p>
<p>So is the potential for publicity highly damaging to Ramsey Country.  It’s your jail, after all.  </p>
<p>Furthermore, such police abuse can scarcely help your own campaign for any higher office.  Most Democrats and Independents are appalled by what police are doing in St. Paul.  Many Republicans are appalled, too.  </p>
<p>Even after police have seized numerous cameras and laptops (and without probable cause, as far as I know), there yet are countless videos.  Call it the Twitter Effect.</p>
<p>Numerous such videos show black-clad police (Blackwater, too?) in riot gear and on horseback on Ramsey County streets.  The police are terrifying peaceful people, manhandling women and men who offer no resistance, and obviously arresting them without probable cause.  </p>
<p>Victims include medics, and credentialled reporters (e.g., Amy Goodman, Sharif Abdel Kouddous, and Nicole Salazar of the fine program, Democracy Now!).  </p>
<p>The victims, and thus those in the Ramsey County Jail, are almost certainly Americans.  Most if not all were merely exercising their 1st Amendment rights.  That’s no crime.</p>
<p>Obviously, I support arresting and prosecuting those who damage property or hurt others.  </p>
<p>But in videotapes of arrests I have seen, the only violence — and there is a lot — is by police.</p>
<p>Please therefore exert all of your authority and persuasiveness to restrain police operating in Ramsey County from </p>
<p>    *  arresting without articulable probable cause;<br />
    *  torturing arrestees with pepper spray and tear gas, with Tasers, and by beating them;<br />
    *  preventing arrestees’ consultation with attorneys;  and<br />
    *  denying medical care to arrestees.</p>
<p>And please exercise your prosecutorial discretion to dismiss promptly </p>
<p>    *  all charges against reporters doing their jobs; and<br />
    *  all charges for which you lack solid probable cause.  </p>
<p>This will undoubtedly include most, if not all, of the felony ‘conspiracy to riot’ charges.  </p>
<p>If we Americans abandon the Rule of Law, what are we?</p>
<p>Sincerely,</p>
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		<title>By: Cacambo</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/03/ramsey-countys-contempt-for-justice-tell-them-to-stop-the-torture-and-restore-the-rule-of-law/#comment-1614847</link>
		<dc:creator>Cacambo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 03:31:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/03/ramsey-countys-contempt-for-justice-tell-them-to-stop-the-torture-and-restore-the-rule-of-law/#comment-1614847</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;its just like being on the No-Fly-List.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Thank you, gracious Moderators, for every time you deign to allow such a lowly one as myself to post my humble comments in your quasi-public, quasi-free forum.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I doubt you will post this, but can you clarify, even to yourself, why you are imposing this pre-emptive, presumptive censorship of posts that contain no insults or banned words?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>its just like being on the No-Fly-List.</p>
<p>Thank you, gracious Moderators, for every time you deign to allow such a lowly one as myself to post my humble comments in your quasi-public, quasi-free forum.</p>
<p>I doubt you will post this, but can you clarify, even to yourself, why you are imposing this pre-emptive, presumptive censorship of posts that contain no insults or banned words?</p>
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		<title>By: Cacambo</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/03/ramsey-countys-contempt-for-justice-tell-them-to-stop-the-torture-and-restore-the-rule-of-law/#comment-1614844</link>
		<dc:creator>Cacambo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 03:16:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/03/ramsey-countys-contempt-for-justice-tell-them-to-stop-the-torture-and-restore-the-rule-of-law/#comment-1614844</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Obama won’t remain silent …. will he?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;oh well He must be supported no matter what, anyway.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obama won’t remain silent …. will he?</p>
<p>oh well He must be supported no matter what, anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: Kirk James Murphy, M.D.</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/03/ramsey-countys-contempt-for-justice-tell-them-to-stop-the-torture-and-restore-the-rule-of-law/#comment-1614843</link>
		<dc:creator>Kirk James Murphy, M.D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 02:59:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/03/ramsey-countys-contempt-for-justice-tell-them-to-stop-the-torture-and-restore-the-rule-of-law/#comment-1614843</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;ondlette, thank you.  And thanks for the good work you do at your blog: it learned me.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ondlette, thank you.  And thanks for the good work you do at your blog: it learned me.</p>
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		<title>By: SadButTrue</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/03/ramsey-countys-contempt-for-justice-tell-them-to-stop-the-torture-and-restore-the-rule-of-law/#comment-1614842</link>
		<dc:creator>SadButTrue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 02:50:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/03/ramsey-countys-contempt-for-justice-tell-them-to-stop-the-torture-and-restore-the-rule-of-law/#comment-1614842</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The words of Pastor Martin Niemoller* come to mind. When they started doing this at Abu Ghraib, at Guantanamo Bay, and at un-numbered, un-named undisclosed locations in Eastern Europe and Gawd-knows where, it was inevitable that these techniques would find their way home in one way or another. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;* = “When the Nazis came for the communists,&lt;br /&gt;
I remained silent;&lt;br /&gt;
I was not a communist.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;When they locked up the social democrats,&lt;br /&gt;
I remained silent;&lt;br /&gt;
I was not a social democrat.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;When they came for the trade unionists,&lt;br /&gt;
I did not speak out;&lt;br /&gt;
I was not a trade unionist.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;When they came for the Jews,&lt;br /&gt;
I did not speak out;&lt;br /&gt;
I was not a Jew.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;When they came for me,&lt;br /&gt;
there was no one left to speak out.”&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The words of Pastor Martin Niemoller* come to mind. When they started doing this at Abu Ghraib, at Guantanamo Bay, and at un-numbered, un-named undisclosed locations in Eastern Europe and Gawd-knows where, it was inevitable that these techniques would find their way home in one way or another. </p>
<p>* = “When the Nazis came for the communists,<br />
I remained silent;<br />
I was not a communist.</p>
<p>When they locked up the social democrats,<br />
I remained silent;<br />
I was not a social democrat.</p>
<p>When they came for the trade unionists,<br />
I did not speak out;<br />
I was not a trade unionist.</p>
<p>When they came for the Jews,<br />
I did not speak out;<br />
I was not a Jew.</p>
<p>When they came for me,<br />
there was no one left to speak out.”</p>
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		<title>By: ondelette</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/03/ramsey-countys-contempt-for-justice-tell-them-to-stop-the-torture-and-restore-the-rule-of-law/#comment-1614841</link>
		<dc:creator>ondelette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 02:42:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/03/ramsey-countys-contempt-for-justice-tell-them-to-stop-the-torture-and-restore-the-rule-of-law/#comment-1614841</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;That they stomped on someone’s chest, denied treatment when he coughed blood, and (was it the same prisoner?) used a restraint chair that is a problem to people with respiratory distress is extremely serious.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The medical examiner’s report on Manadel al Jamadi (the so-called Ice Man) at Abu Ghraib was that he died from pulmonary trauma caused by being stepped on during arrest, followed by being put in a position known as “Palestinian Hanging” (M.E.’s words, the original name for it is &lt;em&gt;strappado&lt;/em&gt;), and so died from positional asphyxiation. Errol Morris &lt;a href=&quot;http://morris.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/19/the-most-curious-thing/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;wrote it up&lt;/a&gt; in May, and Jane Mayer’s book has a description, too.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The U.S. got &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.universalhumanrightsindex.org/documents/828/877/document/en/pdf/text.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;heavily criticized&lt;/a&gt; for some of its practices in 2006 by the Committee Against Torture (the body that is the equivalent with respect to the CATCIDT of the ICRC for the Geneva Conventions), and not just in Afghanistan and Iraq, either.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Thanks, Kirk, for framing this the way it deserves to be framed.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That they stomped on someone’s chest, denied treatment when he coughed blood, and (was it the same prisoner?) used a restraint chair that is a problem to people with respiratory distress is extremely serious.</p>
<p>The medical examiner’s report on Manadel al Jamadi (the so-called Ice Man) at Abu Ghraib was that he died from pulmonary trauma caused by being stepped on during arrest, followed by being put in a position known as “Palestinian Hanging” (M.E.’s words, the original name for it is <em>strappado</em>), and so died from positional asphyxiation. Errol Morris <a href="http://morris.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/19/the-most-curious-thing/" rel="nofollow">wrote it up</a> in May, and Jane Mayer’s book has a description, too.</p>
<p>The U.S. got <a href="http://www.universalhumanrightsindex.org/documents/828/877/document/en/pdf/text.pdf" rel="nofollow">heavily criticized</a> for some of its practices in 2006 by the Committee Against Torture (the body that is the equivalent with respect to the CATCIDT of the ICRC for the Geneva Conventions), and not just in Afghanistan and Iraq, either.</p>
<p>Thanks, Kirk, for framing this the way it deserves to be framed.</p>
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