The LA Times reports this morning that McCain’s "vetting" Palin’s Veep pick consisted of "teh Google."
One Republican strategist with close ties to the campaign described the candidate’s closest supporters as "keeping their fingers crossed" in hopes that additional information does not force McCain to revisit the decision….the McCain team used little more than a Google Internet search as part of a rushed effort to review Palin’s potential pitfalls. Just over a week ago, Palin was not on McCain’s short list of potential running mates, the Republican said.
Karen Tumulty has even more, including that vetting folks from McCain had been in Alaska for just a day before the announcement. Yep, one whole day. Thorough.
This from the Anchorage Daily News would be ludicrous if it weren’t playing out before our eyes. And even though John and Cindy McCain, Rick Davis, Charlie Black, Steve Schmidt, Mark Salter, and Washington lawyer A.B. Culvahouse are alleged to have vetted Palin, there are a whole host of "did anyone actually do anything substantive" questions in the air.
The GOP finger-pointing and blame-passing has begun in earnest, with two anonymous Republican sources pointing the blame finger at Rick Davis in the NYTimes. (Say hello to Steve Schmidt’s pals, kids. Don’t you think?)
Boy howdy, John McCain’s "experience" really comes in handy for that "fingers crossed, rush in without doing the work, act on impulse and hope for the best" technique, doesn’t it? Haven’t we had enough of that the last eight years?
Just who hastily shoved Palin into Veep consideration after a wholesale rejection of Joe Lieberman by the likes of Richard Land and James Dobson? The media is starting to ask some uncomfortable questions, like "who exactly is making decisions for the McCain campaign — McCain, or someone else?" And now this:
Gov. Mark Sanford of South Carolina said that he had heard no discussion about removing Ms. Palin from the ticket.
The "when is McCain going to dump her" questions are already being asked. Ouch.
Much more to come…
Related posts:
- Kiss of Fail Palin Gets Un-vite, Sulks, Pouts, Prevails. Sorta.
- RedState Fundraising Drive for Wingnut Senatorial Candidates: Epic Fail
- Late Night: Sarah Palin Says She’s “Really Not Into The Drama”
- Did Palin Misrepresent Her Creationist Beliefs to Get on the McCain Ticket?
- Sarah Palin: It’s Not My Fault That We Lost






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Anyone know any good McCain/Palin slogans? send ‘em to freewayblogger@yahoo and I’ll inform the masses…
these are from yesterday:
http://freewayblogger.blogspot…..tings.html
Big West Coast Tour Coming Soon!
Palin is another Meier’s or Kerik: a “distraction” candidate who, when criticism forces her out, will be replaced by someone completely awful who would never had made it through uncriticized if offered in the first place. Welcome Vice President Candidate Lieberman
Morning Christy,
tis an EPIC FAIL to be sure.
thanks for the linkilicious roundup.
Today’s recipe: Mother McCain’s Half-Baked Alaskan.
1 fresh turnip
10 lbs vanilla ice cream
flash bake in media microwave for 2 minutes
leave cake out in rain to finish off
Bwahahahahaha
What a circus this is gonna be. You could not make this up. Dali couldn’t make this up.
G’ morning Christy
classic!
Only in America!
I have two thoughts this morning. Well, more, but I’ll stick with these two.
I’m not fully buying the theory that if/when Palin gets thrown out, that the replacement will be a shoe-in, accepted without question, or fewer questions, than if he were picked first.
And, I wonder if Ms. Palin ever questioned why they called her in the first place. She knows what her deficets are, doesn’t she? An intelligent, thoughtful person might have figured out the role she was to play.
McCain should have checked with Anne Kilkenny, a resident of Wasilla, Alaska, about Sarah Palin.
It’s hard to imagine that an intelligent, thoughtful person can also be a Republic.
Here’s a Slogan:
applicants for a new apartment are vetted more thoroughly than Mrs. Van Palin.
McInsane picked a McVP. It’s so brilliant. I have to wonder if some powers that be hate the Mcsame campaign as much as I do.
o/t why is the cnn poll different than galllup? is cnn historically accurate? inaccurate?
Sorry, that’s an over generalization, I think. The contrary would be that all dems are thoughtful and intelligent and we know that’s not true.
I really didn’t meant to set you up for that. I was truly wondering why she hadn’t figured out that this would happen.
I wonder how the Dobson crowd will deal with the issue of the pregnant teenage daughter? In that sense, I feel sorry for the daughter and think Palin must be nuts to throw her daughter to the scrutiny of the press and the evangelical right.
Palin could drop out today, blaming the horrible media and the horrible Democrats for dragging her family into the gutter. She would save a little credibility for McCain that way.
It’s hard to imagine that an intelligent, thoughtful person can also be a Republic.
I figure it’s probably pretty darn rare for any Repub to be accused of being an intelligent, thoughtful person.
Except maybe by other Repubs. They’re so easily
amusedimpressed, ya know.It’s so bizarre, because they have backed themselves into a mess of their own making — having gambled on an enormously reckless splash with an unknown, hoping that there wouldn’t be something nasty out there that they missed in their non-vetting process. Except they gambled badly.
Haven’t we had enough of that reckless idiocy the last eight years to last us a lifetime?
And if they have Palin step down, they have to publicly own up to this failure. So they have to choose between keeping her and standing by while crap keeps trickling out that contradicts the pretty little PR package they tried to concoct for her or removing her and admitting utter failure to do the basics of the job. Jeebus, you cannot make this crap up…
OT – tidbit. The hurricane coming in behind Hannah is called “Ike”. Since the names are selected well ahead of time, does anyone else see the irony in this?
Oh but wait . . . from the Dobson link.
Mmmm. . . Huh?
I know a number of thoughtful decent people who are Republicans. Don’t confuse the national party and the idiocy of the Wurlitzer for the bulk of humanity on that end of the ideological spectrum. The idiocy circus that the national party has become isn’t who most of the rank and file people are — I keep waiting for them to stand up and try and take their party back. Here’s hoping one of these days some of them do…
She is toast. No way to spin “Mother-of-five, four month old special needs baby, teenage pregnant out of wedlock and MOM OUT OF THE PICTURE (running for VP) as any kind of a ‘family value’.
She uses this ‘family crises’ moment to gracefully bow out. McCain gives the rightwing dominionists the finger and picks a more sophisticated asshat (Lieberman) who is pro war and pro choice. That way McCain doesn’t have to look like he made the decision for her to quit.
Enjoy.
I just started reading this 9 page mini bio into mccain, I’m on the second page and right now it looks incredibly ballanced, have a read
Do we have any word from the Obama/Biden camp?
Palin could drop out today, blaming the horrible media and the horrible Democrats for dragging her family into the gutter.
There’s a difference between a family being in the gutter and some other persons *noticing* that a family is in the gutter.
And if she’s gonna drop out, she needs to do it quickly, because JoeLie would need a little time to re-write his speech.
I have no doubt whatsoever that if the Palin pick falls through, McCrazy will blow his stack, tell any and all “advisiors” to fuck off, and name JoeLie as *his* Veep choice.
I am actually hoping Biden considers comments on Palin carefully, and makes his point without sounding like a country clubslosher (which he sometimes sounds like when he’s on when of his “off” days.)
They have been campaigning, doing issues discussions, and trying to stay as far away from the festering mess of a bed that McCain has made for himself as they can, I think.
Obama had a fantastic discussion yesterday — will see if I can dig up the link for you…
Let’s hope that they have that opportunity after the general election results and there is a change in the administration.
They are just tickled to death she is doing what women are supposed to do make babies.
Here’s the Obama link from a talk in Milwaukee yesterday.
McCain wanted Lieberman.
Rove told his minions that Lieberman’s appointment as V.P. candidate would throw the convention into an uproar.
McCain conceded, but with the stipulation that AFTER the convention was over, if things got too hot with Palin’s background, she would step down and Lieberman could then be brought in as the V.P. candidate.
That way the conventioneers were pleased and everything went smoothly. By doing it this way, McCain’s name would stay in the press as the main story for weeks to come. That’s the only way McCain can win by staying in the limelight.
This is the way this will play out.
Like it or not.
I had thought she was a decoy from the start, you suggest someone that is scary and they withdraw themselves, then you get someone in that couldn’t have gotten in in the first place unless you had someone else give it a go
a deek
McCain and Palin are “puppets” of the current Neocons who have no intention of giving up power. The Neocons are all about controlling the governments of the world by installing their puppets. This is an attempt at an installation election, and they control the voting machine outcome.
Only a massive turnout of Obama voters can end the coup which has been in effect since 2000.
maybe I’ve become overly prejudiced by the deluge of unsavory, dishonest, and downright unpleasant representatives of the R party constantly slithering across my teevee screen…. *g*
You know, I feel so horrible for her daughter and the rest of the family. Anyone can make a mistake — anyone. I’ve known a lot of very decent people who have done stupid things in my lifetime, so I have a lot of compassion for that, given that human beings often make errors. It’s what we do about them afterward that is more intriguing.
But McCain ought to have looked at all of this and said, you know what, not what I want to do. Palin should have looked at a lot of this and had the judgment to say no. Neither of them did. And, of the two of them, McCain’s been on the national scene for a long, long time — and should have done his homework to not choose so unwisely.
This is yet another in a series of very reckless gamble McCain has taken on impulse. Given the state of things at the moment in this country, we cannot afford another four years of “yee haw” as a decision-making process. There is too much at stake.
No way. If McCain chooses a pro-choice running mate he is toast with the base. He’s gotta toe the line or the fundies will sit this one out.
Obama is cutting just the right tone…though I am not personally inclined to leave the matter of Bristol’s pregnancy alone. Sarah made it all of our business when she accepted McCain’s offer with full knowledge that Bristol either had already given birth, and/or was pregnant (again), or something like that…all of which will surely be known with the passage of time.
Regardless, this demonstrates horrific judgment on the part of Governor Palin, putting her own ambition WAAAAAAAY ahead of her daughter’s emotional needs.
I don’t think she was a decoy at all, I think she was a rash quick-pick. And this proves how reckless McCain & Co. are.
bwaaahaaahaaaaa !
the whole time the Lake was down this morning I was checking Intrade:
whoopsie, the odds are up 7.0 (was 4.3 when I started watching about 90 minutes ago)
Amen.
Why she said yes is beyond me.
And without the fundamentalist phone trees and door knocking folks, McCain has no ground game. None.
well said.
A little common sense, on *somebody’s* part, would have gone a long way here.
OT – egads, just saw Mrs. McCrazy from her appearance last night at the convention. What in the world was she wearing? Is she a “Trekkie”?
I agree with Josh Marshall, that despite any wishful thinking on our part that they’re not going to bail on Palin now.
This was a “rally the base” choice, along with the arrogant thought that the (mythical, I think) 28% portion of the Clinton supporters would come over to McCain based on the fact that she is a “vagina-American” (Samantha Bee ™.
Rove, errrrr, Steve Schmidt is not going to let this happen. Palin was properly vetted, that is for Christian conservative cred. That is why his campaign contributions ticked up substantially last month – they’re on board now.
McCain really did want Joe Liebermann; his choice got vetoed by the people who are really in charge of the GOP. It is our job to show how far right these people really are.
Bringing a baby with Downs syndrome to term; marrying a 18-year old boy who under the stupid laws in most states would be convicted for statutory rape and become a registered sex offender; these are all things that most Americans do not agree with but what the Christian conservatives want for America. Sarah Palin is going to be the gift that keeps on giving!
BTW, over at the Daily Howler via Hullabaloo (TDH is not on my check every day list anymore – too much of a one-trick pony in my mind), Somerby makes a good point. Palin wasn’t even governor (2006) when the earmark for the “bridge to nowhere” got canceled in the first place (2005!).
See, I find attacking a 17 year old child who made a mistake utterly abhorrent. I have to say, I’m with Obama on this one. Completely. I didn’t like it when Lucy Ann Goldberg was attacking Chelsea Clinton, either. No thanks.
agree, no decoy at all. McGambler was so nervous about the fundies stayin’ home (klowns, that’s not even gonna be enough) they trotted her past Dobson et al
hmmmm, so why not Pawlenty ? among the front runners, he was the least vulnerable on “values issues”
either they were dumb enough to go for the gender gambit, or Gov Palin had more powerful fundy patron(s)
That “burnt mustard” color is not one that anyone in their right mind should wear outside of the 1970s, and even then it was heinous. Reminds me of a couch my granny used to have…
That is often the case. But I still fill pained and can’t help but flinch when persons very close to me, who are republican (like say, someone who was practically my surrogate mom and her husband), talk politics during gettogethers. I am torn between love/respect and feeling pained, very pained about some differences on things e.g. the war. Even though they are split on whether to dislike Chimpo or not.
dayum !!! the Intrade number has jumped to 9 – that’s 2 full points in less than 10 minutes – tee hee
seems like the only obama thing getting coverage this morning is the “off limits” comment. wish this had gotten some.
christy, don’t you wish this was the kind of superficial vetting we had to put up with to get a law license? ot’s much more rigorous than what mccain put that woman through.
And without the fundamentalist phone trees and door knocking folks, McCain has no ground game. None.
And that would be awful. Just awful. /s
Exactly! This is why “experience” got thrown out the window despite this silly business about Palin being Commander in Chief of the Alaska National Guard. (obviously Larry Johnson is on the RNC talking points blast fax – he used this point at about 11 am on Friday morning….)
Hey, check out this site
http://www.hubdub.com/tag/sarah_palin
If they truly used “teh Google” to vet her, there are two things working here.
1 – They must have pathetically lame search skills.
2 – They were doing this simply as a rote effort, i.e. they didn’t want to find anything.
There are apparently a lot of “educated” people out there who lack critical research, reasoning capabilities.
She needs a new designer badly. Her clothes are probably very expensive but not tasteful….or something. Wrong for her, at least.
Palin wasn’t even governor (2006) when the earmark for the “bridge to nowhere” got canceled in the first place (2005!).
Did not know that. Seems extremely important to me.
It’s really not about Bristol. It’s about Bristol’s parents, specifically her mother who is involved in a religious movement that is profoundly wrong about a number of things, including sex education. Their parenting choices included not even giving their child the opportunity to make responsible decisions for herself because the parents prevented her from obtaining information on birth control. IMO that’s unacceptable.
For anyone running for VP, that is an issue. And it’s a legitimate issue of attack. If Obama doesn’t want to touch it fine. But I will.
dayum !!! the Intrade number has jumped to 9 – that’s 2 full points in less than 10 minutes – tee hee
umm, a little help for the uninformed please. What is InTrade?
Palin: This word will eventually take on new meaning. Will it mean a candidate who gets “paler and paler” = palin’ (as in fadin’ away)?
I think she’s palin’ myself!
It really is bizarre, isn’t it? The McCain campaign is saying they knew all of this and considered it, after having asked her to answer a 70 page questionnaire. If that’s so, this is the best pick? GOP folks are already starting to point fingers of blame all over the place…I can’t remember the last time I’ve seen them so scattershot in trying to message and hopping around trying to get the blame to land elsewhere.
Just bizarre.
I’m sorry but I take offense to this
I support CHOICE, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with having a baby with Down’s syndrome.
Besides, I never met anyone who had a relative with Down’s syndrome who did not sincerely believe that child did anything but add goodness to the family.
Suzanne’s upstairs!
Saint Paul or Beijing?
Agreed – but the social issues surrounding Bristol Palin (and Sarah Palin for that matter) should be in play. Marrying an 18-year old is a recipe for disaster [as an aside, my wife TIVO-ed that summer series on NBC where they had 18 year old kids do parenting for a summer - 100 percent of them broke up after the series was done shooting!]
I luckily don’t get paid for figuring out how to do that without having the GOP divert attention from this matter by stating “they’re attacking a 17-year old girl – look away!”
However, I do question bringing that baby into the world if she was not willing to take the time required to be there for him. She wouldn’t even have been able to do the necessary things if she were governor, never mind VP.
I have to admit, mccain and the republican party are certainly inept to the point that someone this much a joke could conceivably be their pick in response to disenfranchised hillary voters
idiots to be sure
I’m sort of known for my lists. So let’s see. We have
Troopergate
Alaska Independence Party
Bridge to nowhere being for it before she was against
Firing employees as mayor over loyalty issues
Involved in the 527 for Ted Stevens
Her daughter’s pregnancy
Her own still dubious pregnancy
Her expensive screwup with building a rec center as mayor
Anti-choice
Anti-gay marriage
Pro-abstinence only (Tell that one to Bristol)
Pro-gun
Anti-environment (wolves and polar bears)
Pro-drilling
Anti-global warming
Creationist
This is what I know to the present time. Have I missed anything?
gotta agree.
I would want to see some verifiable proof before hitting hard, but if there’s a villain in this situation (assuming that the fake birth story turns out to be true), said villain is her mother, not those who look at this inherently strange story/situation.
From Josh at TPM:
“In fact, a call to Alaska Airlines by Gambling911.com revealed that they will not allow a woman to board a flight whose water has broke.” (sic)
Airline spokeswoman Caroline Boren…“The stage of her pregnancy was not apparent by observation. She did not show any signs of distress,”
Let’s just say that the above does not convince me that Mrs. Palin’s story is true.
True. And I know someone whose daughter-in- law and son got testing etc., so the birth that the baby was born with Down’s syndrome was a shock. However, the baby is still adorable as all babies are and it was love at first sight for grandmother and grandaughter.
Perhaps I should have chosen my words a little better. I am talking about policy issues here and what should be a privacy matter. If it is up to Christian conservatives such as Palin, the 1967 Connecticut decision contraception would have been overturned.
What I am saying here is that that issue such as whether bringing a Down’s syndrome baby to term should be a choice – the religious right feel that that choice should be taken away. I’m not a woman, but I know for a fact that after we took the ambiotic fluid test but before we got the results, it certainly came across my mind what I would have done. In the GOP/conservative world, we would not have even gotten a choice because we would have to bear what God has given us.
Thank you. Will have a look.
But she still took the money to build the road to the nonexistent bridge to nowhere rather than send it back.
I think the Palin pick was McCain’s response to the body blow Obama gave him Thursday night. No doubt Palin was moved up to a short list early in the week when Michelle’s and then Hillary’s speeches made it clear that Obama is going after (and will get) the woman’s vote. That forced McCain to go back to his base and hope (like Hillary hoped after Wisconsin) that ’something would come up’ to tarnish Obama in the next two months. The idea was that with a solid base and some funny business in Florida and luck in Ohio and Michigan he might just eke out another rethnug victory. Securing that base, which was never strong for him in the primaries, was his first goal. I’m surprised, however, that he didn’t go with Huckabee, who seems to me to be a more natural pick.
Anyway, Pawlenty, Ridge and Lieberman must be hopping mad, because they all knew they were on the short list. That McCain should take on an unvetted neophyte shows not only bad judgment, but also that his campaign was and is reeling from the Thursday night speech. They had to upstage it, and did. Big mistake.
Obama must have a voodoo doll in his closet. His opponents have the uncanny knack of self-destructing. Remember what happened in the Illinois senate race?
Hey gang. David’s upstairs with fresh red meat. ;->
I jsut want to toss something out there and see what anyone knows about it.
Yesterday I was watching cspan broadcast of protests in St paul and a speaker said that at this moment, and for some time passed, if you are an illegal alien and you agree to join the US armed forces, you are immediately given citizenship when you enlist.
Can this be true? If so it’s a huge story, explains the repug divide on immigration and amnesty.
I think this is a bigger story than gov. Palin-By-Comparison’s family scandals. By the way, as a woman, i look at the photos of that family and all the women look like deer caught in the headlights. Whose headlights are the question.
Could not get onto the lake for last 24 hrs by the by.
Saturday there was a post up about her using state funds to promote the defeat of a state issue for clean water when she sided with mining interests. Lost suit in court and was forced to take down state site
ouch.
Your comments made me think of the folks Bush sent into Iraq after the invasion. They were properly vetted too, for loyalty to Bush, and not for competency. Can’t wait for folks to be reminded of that.
The whole thing couldn’t be happening to a “Nicer” guy. After messing over women most of his life, it looks like one may mess him over.
Oops. I got tricked. I went there to congratulate our late night host on a day job, but found the error.
I was going to say, hey, some of us were just talking about intelligent, thoughtful Republicans. Were your ears burning?
just spell-check, pretty much set otherwise donchathink?
Does anyone know if she really CAN drop out once she’s on the ballot? I honestly don’t know the answer, and this isn’t my area of expertise. My (admittedly limited) understanding is that the ballots are a made up on a state-by-state basis, and the President/Veep slots usually go on the ballots as a single unit. I would imagine that the what-if-someone-drops-out-or-becomes-incapacitated scenarios would all have to be dealt with on a state-by-state basis. Does anyone know?
You aren’t immediately given citizenship — but the application for immigration is expedited.
And please, gang, can we refrain from using demeaning phrases like “spayed” to talk about fellow human beings? honestly? Is that the level to which we feel comfortable sinking? There are plenty of issues to hit without rolling around in the gutter with Rove, don’t you think?
1,753 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Hardin Smith and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
Thanx for the update on the Palin political death watch, I’m still not convinced that this is not jest a “hail Mary” move to distract from the politics and issues and the terrible prospect of 24/7 coverage of the Kafkaesque orgy inside the Excel Center. If it’s as stomach turning on the inside as it was on the outside yesterday, the Palin appointment and it’s distraction can only be better for the fascists than a close televised look at the rotting corpse of the once proud and powerful GOP.
I spent the entire day yesterday in St Paul and haven’t had a chance ta look up the FDL posts from yesterday but Citizen Hamsher’s post of this mornin’ is extremely helpful in understanding what those of us “ants” on the ground got a glimpse of as we gathered and marched all day yesterday. This whole convention has the aura of a bad community theatre romance…does anyone have the feelin’ that nobody includin’ the fascists give a shit what’s happenin’ in St Paul and it’s only bein’ done ta practice for crowd control after another “national emergency”?
Many folks I spoke with in our section of the march (the first section that included veterans and vets families) believed that the “Imperial Storm Troopers” that where dressed in complete riot gear, smoked visors and no identification as to individual or unit origin were contract troops (read mercenaries) quite probably Blackwater. I observed a number of the Minneapolis bike police nod or speak in recognition to some of these folks as they road by so I don’t know if that recognition came from prior training maneuvers or briefings or reflected that these storm troopers came from units inside the Mp ls police…
In any case, I think it’s clear that this sham of a convention and Presidential campaign are themselves cover for preparations for the implementation of a police occupation of the population centers of the country (beyond what we already suffer). Anybody know if the Blackwater veterans of Katrina are back in New Orleans today?
Again thanx for the post Sister Smith…what do you think is really behind the Palin nomination, are the corporatists jest thowin McCrazy and the rump population of the Republican Party out in front of the angry masses to distract the campaign from a dialogue about what needs to be done in the next administration?
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THEY ALREADY HAVE THEIR TROOPS DEPLOYED!!
And then there’s the interesting little ratchet up of drill, drill, drill and Dubya’s infomercial for Big Oil this morning…expect we’ll see more of that later during his satellite speech….
oh, the titanic clash of the hotheads…it just keeps on givin’, doesn’t it, Christy….
Eagleton dropped out after being on the ticket w/ Mondale
I was hoping the name Ted Stevens would crop up in connection with Sarah Palin. It was just a hunch, Alaska being a small state (pop.-wise I guess) . . .
Please go on with that one . . .
This is a RIOT! I suggested jokingly a couple of days ago that they vetted her by searching Google images, and it turns out to be true!
Eagleton? Thought it was McGovern.
A Time magazine poll taken at the time found that 77 percent of the respondents said “Eagleton’s medical record would not affect their vote.” Nonetheless, the press made frequent references to his shock therapy, and McGovern feared that this would detract from his campaign platform.[3]
I do have to wonder if this isn’t the latest version of “WWTSBQ?” In spite of the hoopla and speculation, it’s looking a little too familiar.
Thank you for the hook. The whole subject is hard enough to handle without the over-the-top, mean-spirited comments. I was just about ready to check out of here.
(((mods)))
Thanks for this link, Badwater! Props to you and fdl at my homeblog on this at Deep Vetting Sarah Palin.
The ol’ cliche about being careful who you step on on the way up sure seems in play here. Good for Anne Kilkenny.
That burnt mustard color goes very well with a burnt orange, and a burnished red, or anyone of thos in combination with an acid green.
I gather you don’t believe in choice?
That street runs 2 ways.
Can you vet the Clintons?
BTW, James Wolcott does a much better, but slightly more irreverent job, of making my point here.
The article he links to within his post his fascinating – abortion is a one-trick pony issue with these hypocrites, what ever happens after baby comes into the world is secondary to everything else.
Bonehead Byron York basically confirms that the campaign didn’t know about the family until Monday LOL…
My guess is, York didn’t realize what this confirmed. Whoops!