Today our White House issued a statement:
"We regret the loss of life among the innocent Afghanis who we are committed to protect," White House spokesman Tony Fratto said.
Once again, the words of “regret” – after days of denial. How many times have we read the same words – following the same air strikes in Afghanistan and in Iraq. Regret – but we have not once seen an example of accountability.
Excuses are made – “insurgents” were gathering, firing, or “gathering” in the vicinity – and after the fact, there are always "investigations" but the strategy of bombing without regard for civilian homes and lives never seems to change.
With today’s news of our “regret” there was also news of at least one effort at accountability. Afghan president Karzai condemned the strikes and:
Major General Jalandar Shah Behnam, commander of the 207th Corps, based in Herat, and Major Abdul Jabar, commander of a special forces battalion, were removed from their posts for negligence and for "concealing the truth," a statement from the presidential office said.
Karzai’s spokesman, Homayun Hamidzada, said that civilian casualties had been declining for several months but that recent airstrikes had reversed that trend. He said requests to U.S. forces for greater care concerning civilian casualties had had little effect. The coalition has said it does all it can to prevent civilian deaths.
"This puts us in a very difficult position," said one government official, asking not to be identified because of the sensitivity of the matter. "It provides propaganda to the Taliban and, if they don’t take responsibility, it actually helps the Taliban."
Welcome to the Afghanistan Surge.
Congratulations to Rohullah Nikpai of Afghanistan on his bronze medal – the first ever Olympic medal won by an athlete from his country.
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Hi and thank you, Siun.
Good evening Siunshine. I suppose the US apology came about because Karzi implemented a modicum of accountability on his end.
Rohullah Nikpai!
An end to this blasted air war on the Afghani people, please….
makes me sick. are they crediting this to a drone aircraft strike, or must a real-life pilot live with the horrible memory?!
Evening gang … figured an Olympic touch was in order for tonight – and the footage of where Nikpal trains is stunning.
Expect a lot more of these airstrikes both in Afghansistan and Irak. I make no pretense at being a military expert but everything I hear from people with military experience and everything I read leads me to believe that there will be many more such incidents.
Perhaps someone here can comment on whether to expect very heavy use of artillery in Afghansitan (as your army did and continues to do in Irak) the few reports I have seen make me think they have not done that yet in Afghanistan.
Maryam
Gates wants more drones.
Good evening Maryam! Thank you for visiting tonight.
I have not read much about artillery in Afghanistan but the news here has rarely mentioned Afghanistan. And of course, the news here does not speak of the artillery use in Iraq either. We live in a bubble where no one talks of the actions taken in our name.
Rohullah Nikpai !!! Bravo, Bravo . . .
and you are right Siun about the stunning training footage – that last spin kick is a thing of beauty – look how far his opponent flies . . .and he knows what’s coming
his accomplishment is all the more incredible in that there are millions more practicing the martial arts than those in the marquee olympic sports – and for this man to arise from his circumstances and all but best the planet – wow
I have nothing to add other than heartbreak and shame to what we are doing from the air in this young man’s country
Maryam – if you are able to comment, I saw the report of a case of cholera in Baghdad and the report at Guides about the continuing lack of water. (Similar reports also from Afghanistan where years of our actions seem only to kill people instead of helping with water and electricity supply)
Could you say anything about the situation in Iraq with water now and how this is impacting people?
And my deepest thanks to you and the team for the immense effort necessary for comments from Guides members.
(I will note for our visitors outside the US that the Olympics final ceremony is just now on US tv and so many folks are probably not reading blogs tonight)
Hi Maryam. Nice to “see” you again.
I don’t believe killing innocent civilians is a winning strategy, now is it? Hearts and minds in those places, I’m guessing, is going toward the Taliban.
Hello all. I am def. not watching the Olympics. I’m reading this thread.
And, as cbl2 said, I don’t at present have anything to add, except shame and heartbreak.
Thanks for a great post, Siun.
Maryam, I mourn for the damage my country has done to yours. Many of us are doing everything we can to bring about a change in our leadership to a group with a better grasp of our shared humanity.
It seems to me that a pattern of repeat bombings with multiple civilian casualties would make grounds for a complaint to the International Criminal Court. Targeting of civilians, or even failure to take all available precautions against civilian casualties, is a war crime. Bush and his cronies should answer for their crimes.
What station?
The water situation is rapidly becoming disastrous. Our costs for water in the orphanages and camps we run is up by 68%.
For the country in general – To give an example in Diyala the agriculture has quite simply stopped. In Diyala they got 37% of the water they need,. Another example is Basrah the salinity in the Shatt is massively up. All of this means not only is there not enough water but also that generation of electricity fails. The situation in the northern governorates is also bad but not as bad as the central governorates and the south.
So far no more CLCs for Cholera but AWD is up massively throughout the entire country. All of us are hoping that there will not be another outbreak. Some cases are to be expected as Cholera is endemic but hopefully no more than a handful.
So they killed a few more people! It means nothing to the Neocons in this administration! Accountability is a swear word to these people, that is unless it means more money for them!! The swearing in of a Democratic president can’t come soon enough… How many more innocent lives will be lost between now and then.
You can now Digg this thanks to Eureka Springs (:>))
Does it matter?
OT: Here is Bernard Chazelle’s very excellent commentary on Russia vs. Georgia: http://www.tinyrevolution.com/…..02497.html
Americans think we are in only two shooting wars, and don’t realize a devastating airwar is being waged against Irakis and Afghanis in our name.
It would be appropriate for someone to mention this atrocity from the podium in Denver this week.
Not a huge effort tonight I am in Europe on a combined reporting to donors and buying supplies trip. I got some good bargains for equipment from some hospitals that are closing and am well content.
I am also “flying solo” as Erdla who was meant to ensure that I mind my manners is fast asleep on the sofa and the dog who spent some hours being used as a climbing frame by the three babies is fast asleep on the other sofa. :-)
sadly, i think it is primarily the democrats who are pushing for this surge and i expect it will be much worse when obama is president. i hope i am wrong about that but at the moment it looks to me like mccain favors more war in iraq and and new hot war with iran while obama favors more war in afghanistan and possibly war with pakistan.
Thank you Maryam.
The lack of water supply is terrifying – such a basic need.
Each week when I read the reports for these posts, I wonder why we could not send water treatment and food and medical supplies instead of bombs. A naive thought perhaps and yet, countries like China have gained friends around the world with development projects while we have earned enmity.
maryam – i am very glad to see that you are well.
Via wikinews on this story: (First I have heard of wikinews)
Afghan government: More than 90 civilians killed by US airstrike
Goodness – solo!
It sounds like the supply shopping was a great success – what good news!
We are sending somebody there next week – they have very good offers for pharmaceuticals and surgical supplies.
Maryam – please let us know if we can ever assist with supplies. I know that the best way for us to help is via Red Crescent but if there are ever other ways for us to help, just let me know.
wigwam – from your link, i will guess that you might like bernhard’s (of moon of alabama) recent post: The Mysterious ‘Sarkozy Letter’. i think it is useful as a window into the level of propaganda we are receiving and how difficult it is to figure out what is going on.
Eureka – the reports have been trickling out – that’s the first I’ve seen of a specific breakdown. Thank you.
There are photos of the aftermath of the bombings in several UK papers:
Telegraph for example.
Certainly and thank you. Thanks also to Selise and Loo Hoo for their good wishes.
Moon of Alabama has been the best source on Georgia … good link Selise!
Yes, please do.
i do not know if this report can be confirmed, but it seems likely that the 10 french soldiers kill in afghanistan earlier this week may have not been killed by a taliban attack (as was reported) but by another “regretful” mistake by nato airstrike.
“It would be appropriate for someone to mention this atrocity from the podium in Denver this week.”
(((((Teddy)))))
Oh, absolutely. Petreas for Obama’s VP.
i knew you would have seen that one *g*, but thought wigwam and others would want to see it too. amazing work by bernhard – he really outdid himself with that one.
Selise – I had not seen that report – thank you.
amen.
but not if they can not show some genuine sadness – i have no interest in hearing cheerleading for any war.
I think we all suspect that John McCain feels very little remorse for civilian casualties on any front. Most of us suspect or at least hope that Barack Obama is more conscientious, however it would be good if someone has an opportunity to ask him what, if elected, he intends to do to curtail attacks on civilians.
The military in both Irak and Afghanistan will increasingly rely primarily on air power. In mobile operations it is easier to call in an air strike than to spot for artillery, which may be out of range to begin with. Rather than engaging with an armed force, the military will use air power in order to keep US casualties to a minimum. Iraki or Afghani casualties are, of course, no concern. It’s up to the politicians to offer their “regrets” and the military brass to say they’re “investigating” over the death of civilians. The military has devolved into the “body count” mentality we saw in Viet Nam. No matter how many civilian lose their lives, at least 1 “militant” will have been killed, justifying any action the military may have taken. They haven’t quite gotten to the “if they’re dead they’re Viet Cong” mentality but they’re working on it.
I’ve forgotten my manners.
Welcome, Maryam. Thank you for joining us.
I think it is clear that with a McCain presidency, we will see even worse – in Iraq, Afghanistan, and in Iran and elsewhere.
We will need to fight for a complete change in US foreign policy no matter who is in the WH next year.
I believe they have had that mentality all along. The rare exceptions are when incidents of U.S. forces causing civilian casualties receive media scrutiny here at home.
Given that we do not even count Iraqi casualties – we did count Vietnamese, I think you are sadly right.
i used to think that obama was less of a war monger – mostly because he was against the invasion of iraq. but now i am not so sure the way he talks about escalating the war in afghanistan and the possibility of an attack on pakistan.
i am also very worried that many democrats (not party leaders – the regular people in the base) will be much more willing to tolerate military action if it is a democratic president who does it. i would not be surprised also to see some so-called “humanitarian intervention” (in other words, air war) in places like darfur that is cheered on many who would be anti-war if it was being done by bush (or mccain).
don’t know why, but i’ve been especially despairing today… maybe it’s because i’ve been reading about our actions in the former yugoslavia during the ’90s (once again it appears not to have been as reported) and i remember how the dems especially cheered that attack and defended clinton for making it.
Are they using DU im Afghanistan do you know? If so you can also expect to see a marked increase in various cancers among children as we now have in Irak.
( The lead story picked by the editors on “Guides” for tonight’s daily summary report was from the conference organised by the Basrah Medical Association. My colleague Doctor Al-Salihi reported 1600 children now being treated in Basrah alone of whom 400 are getting medications from irregular sources due to a combination both of poverty and lack of supply. )
Militarization of both parties. Albright sez: What’s the point of having a military if you don’t use it. Outcome is SOOOOO predictable.
i despise madeline albright. possibly even more than wes clark if that was possible.
There wasn’t much hue and cry from the Democratic rank and file whenever Bill Clinton engaged in cruise missile diplomacy or during his bombing campaign against Serbia.
-G
But you can’t deny my point, that both parties have been militarized.
And corprotized.
Ds are R lite.
Am hoping that better Ds will work, but am not optimistic. I share your pessimism that things have gone too far to be reeled back by adults.
Maryam – thank you for passing that information along. With Iraqi children already suffering from the earlier DU and then sanctions and now the continued use of DU … shudder, what have we done.
Re Afghanistan. Democracynow had an informative segment on how it’s all falling apart. Think it was Thursday morning.
I should add both in response to you and to ratfood that in all wars it seems you must dehumanise your enemy. We did it during the war with Iran and they did it back. In Vietnam your soldiers called the Vietnamese “gooks” and now they call us “sand niggers”.
Hence our quote of the American officer to the New York Times reporter that we use as our byline:
“The only thing these sand niggers understand is force and I’m about to introduce them to it.”
I think a comment of mine has upset your censor software.
Was Friday. Here’s the link:
http://www.democracynow.org/20…..e_brunt_of
Checking – we’ll take care of it.
Maryam- Let me also say thank you for joining us. Sorry that wasn’t my first comment.
And, please, if there are specific ways we can help with surgical supplies, let Siun know, so she can pass it on. I work in a science lab, and a lot of things used are appropriate, and available at discounts via vendors. Plus, tons of things on ebay, which usually go very cheaply, because the sellers often don’t know what they have. I’m pretty sure I could round up some useful items, but would need a list of what is useful, and where to send.
DU tipped artillery rounds are standard issue and I would expect them to be used.
no, and that is what has me worried now. it is one thing to have presidents make war and lie to us about it. but i want to believe that the reason more people didn’t see through the lies is that we didn’t have the internet as a research tool and each other to consult.
but every time i read something about how iraq has “distracted” us from the “real” war in afghanistan (which, of course, is the main stream democratic line) i just want to scream. why can’t more dems see that a “surge” in afghanistan is just as stupid and immoral as the “surge” in iraq?
Evening, all-
One thing I would like to here from the stage in Denver is some explanation of how expanding NATO and provoking Russia for no good reason is a good idea.
The bombing of Serbia was obviously necessary to stop the genocide. Our European allies all supported it. The last time you were offended when I accused you of wanting to stand by and do nothing about the genocide. What would you have done to stop it?
Maryam’s comment is at #54 – freed up now.
i don’t.
but i don’t think the Ds are R-lite. i think it is more a case of good cop / bad cop.
Not sure that’s the case- there have been some odd cases in the last day or so at FDL where comments get snagged for no reason. Mods have sorted this out pretty quickly. Glitches.
And where would Afghanistan be now if the Brits hadn’t divided the Pashtuns in two? And how long must we live with blowback?
It is common practice in the military. It starts in basic training. It’s harder to kill someone you see as another human.
Why are these civilians being killed?
To fight a war on terror?
I doubt it. Looks more like a struggle for control of the world’s heroin supply.
http://www.independent.co.uk/n…..94778.html
It wouldn’t be in the interest of the West for an Afghan narco-state to fall under the sway of the Russian mafia, would it?
Oh for crying out loud. Stopping genocide by bombing innocents has to be among the most moronic of all foreign policies. Not that there was much genocide after all in Serbia. Yet another thing we were lied to about.
Not only the parties, but foreign policy now is strictly a militarized foreign policy. One of the prime ingredients of empire. This attitude will not change from the top, it will have to be changed from the bottom up.
In regard to military actions, the MSM in this country always act as White House stenographers and most Americans don’t care to delve any deeper.
Me too, Ron. How are you doing? How’s the Queen?
Hey Siun– thank you for spotlighting the mostly forgotten Afghans and Afghanistan.
Hi Maryam– thank you for being here to educate all of us on the other “forgotten” and illegitimate war on another nation of innocents.
Heaven help those that are suffering so mightily because of our greed and ignorance.
My understanding is the large majority of Serbian attacks on civilians in Kosovo did not occur until after the bombing had begun, as a reaction to the bombing. I believe, at that point, the KLA had killed more civilians than the Serbs had, and were doing it deliberately in the attempt to provoke a harsh Serb reaction that would draw in NATO.
Seems to have worked.
And so, can it be changed from the bottom up? Am not as optimistic about that as others who are present on this site. Internet is fabulous, but power is power.
darn it!
that was me– angie.
sorry, Dru and others.
;(
So all those mass graves were faked I suppose. The journalists who documented them and photographed them were involved in a huge conspiracy to trick us into supporting Clinton’s and Albright’s war. And what was the real purpose of the attack?
That is just plain ugly- that quote and that term. Unfortunately, as any one here FDL knows who has been following the state of things, a lot of really bad actors have been recruited in the U.S. military- felons, former felons, abusers, rapists, etc. Desperate for boots on the ground.
Hi Loo Hoo!
We’re all fine-the Queen is well, and sends her regards. We’re slowly drying out from Fay…how are you?
Then you must not have been paying attention when it was happening. There were many reports of the genocide well before the bombing.
10,000 not 100,000. Purpose of attack was wanton projection of US power.
i don’t accept your premise that it was genocide – not saying a lot of people weren’t killed (and there were some massacres), but as far as i can tell the talk of genocide was pure propaganda and just as true as the stories of wmd in iraq.
if there truly was a genocide, please direct me to some links of human rights organizations discovery and analysis of mass graves by forensic investigators.
furthermore, the best sources i can find say that our bombing campaign made things worse – not better – and that outcome was even predicted prior to our attack. if you would like some links on this i would be happy to provide them – if you are willing to do the same (i want to see the reports that the forensic investigators who went do autopsies at the sites of the mass graves actually found evidence of genocide).
BTW RieszFischer, US should keep out of other peoples’ business unless it can do something productive. Considering that most of the Balkan “nations” are close to failed states, with Kosovo the textbook case, and the blowback from Russia in Georgia, one could make a credible case that the whole US Balkans intervention was an exercise in futility.
Since WWII, most U.S. foreign policy has facilitated or been facilitated by arms sales. Particularly with respect to developing nations, agreements always seem to hinge on the U.S. providing weapons.
There are no quick fixes. It has taken 40 years to accomplish what the imperialists have accomplished. To expect it to vanish in the next 4 years, or 8 for that matter, is not realistic. Empire is about control of resources and the benefits (read wealth) control of those resources brings. That leads to a discussion of our trade policies and economic system.
I will not be here 40 years from now, so perhaps that explains my pessimism.
We are the biggest arms dealer in the world. Took over from China and the USSR years ago.
must destroy the village to save it.
Excuse me.
There were widespread reports of genocidal activity in both Croatia and Bosnia, to which I paid close attention, in horror, as no one did a thing. My reference was limited to Kosovo, which, I believe you will find if you actually care to check, the bombing preceded the majority of attacks by the Serbs. I recommend Chomsky’s Hegemony or Survival, where he addresses the issue in detail, with confirming statements by Wesley Clark.
Yeah, I was paying attention.
“wanton projection of US power”? You’re saying it had no real purpose? And you said my assertion was moronic?
I won’t either but I’m not gonna quit tryin’. A journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step.
Would be funny if it weren’t true.
check Musharref’s Pakistan and the Royals of Saudi Arabia and Saddam’s Iraq………………….. etc.
With all due respect, they are not “developing nations”, are they?
angie! great to ’see’ you.
You betcha.
(((likewise)))
There’s no accountability left in the American government. Or in the American “Illuminati” class. They do as they please, pretty much without consequences.
Ghod, I wish I had the skills necessary to emigrate to New Zealand.
there were reports of iraq’s nuclear weapons program too. remember the aluminum tubes? and the supposed iraq / AQ link?
haven’t we learned that just because some stenographer tells us something, that doesn’t mean it’s true? that we are required to do some checking? if you’ve done that checking then i’d be very glad to know it and to read your references. but if you are just repeating what you read in the nyt with no fact checking of your own – then i don’t see why you are outraged that i am doubtful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_War
i think it can crumble quickly too. economic collapse, etc.
If you reread my comment at 84, you might note that I did not refer to developing nations exclusively. Nearly ALL our foreign policy seems to involve arms sales, including our agreements with our European “partners.”
As far as our agreements with the poorer nations in the world, nothing delays economic progress as much as armed conflict, which we appear to have some stake in fomenting.
Great. Back to actual work tomorrow. With kids!
The aluminum tubes and the Niger yellowcake stories were obvious bullshit. The aluminum tubes were known to be unsuitable for making centrifuges. I saw photos of mass graves in Bosnia and Kosovo and there were many journalists present. That is much diffeent than the fake WMD reports in Iraq.
am i missing something? that is not a link to a report of “discovery and analysis of mass graves by forensic investigators.”
My life changing experience wrt govt reports was that I was able to figure out that there were no WMDs in Iraq from open sources. Wasn’t even hard to do. Took a lot longer for me to realize that the Rs refrain that Clinton did it first was actually accurate.
Wasn’t paying attention during Clinton. No shame on me. My excuses are plenty good. But shame on me if I haven’t figured it out now, when I have NO excuses.
BTW you have email,.
great. then tell me where they were and who did the investigation (autopsies, etc) because i’d like to read the report.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3120772.stm
http://citycellar.com/BalkanWitness/Sreb1.htm
I don’t mean to disrespect anyone.
Posit this, though.
If anyone in this community is stricken with hardship, disease, or death in the family– we rally round and more.
Imagine having nothing– no security, safety, water, medications, energy, hope and an all consuming fear of praying for the best and denying the very real demons that plague you not only daily, but minute by minute– with bombs, drones and nefarious machinations.
Imagine.
I try and fail– I guess and believe that I am lucky.
It’s happening all over the world in our name.
Here’s one in Kosovo:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/473017.stm
China have gained friends around the world with development projects while we have earned enmity
There was a time when we did that. What’s worse, if we’d done that five years ago instead of invading Iraq, things probably would be going better there.
teddy’s upstairs with *gasp* a sports thread!!!
We are living the beginning.
Is it your impression, as it is mine, that history is speeding up?
My point is to consider the outcome, including the blowback, of the US intervention in Balkans. Doesn’t seem like it was in US interest after all. And as for lives saved/lost, jury is surely still out.
Forward 2 1/2 sumersault 2 twists. oooohhhhhhh, shit.
http://www.boston.com/news/wor…..es_emerge/
The stakes are growing larger, and the number of people who can influence the system is increasing. The payoffs will be much larger for the winners, and more lethal for the losers. Cooperation, in my view, is the only alternative.
Siun,
Thanks for keeping your eye on the ball.
I know I’m late to the party again, but your top post is a good illustration of why Barack Obama needs to be very careful (re-)defining the mission of his planned surge in Afghanistan. Please, Barack, more emphasis on “Three Cups of Tea,” and less emphasis on bombs, please.
Bob in HI
More people are becoming aware.
Unfortunately, it is not the majority that inhabit the “superpowers”.
And so…….
Well then what would you have done to stop the genocide? Saying “Doesn’t seem like it was in US interest after all.” doesn’t cut it. It sounds too, er, Republican.
It seems, then, they should have no issue with South Ossetia joining Russia.
Only the losers get tried for war crimes.
Bob – well said and a message we all need to continue to deliver.
The two boats that landed in Gaza are symbols of things to come. The Israelis allowed the boats to land to avoid the media attention a confrontation would have drawn, by their own admission. One small success will lead to other small successes. Then to larger successes. Hard work and a belief that we will prevail.
When one reflects on the history of human civilizations, it seems that after a prolonged period of progress and expansion they sometimes cross a threshold or tipping point and then proceed to collapse relatively quickly. That might not be what we are witnessing now but it would be unwise to assume that any human endeavor is permanent.
I can only hope that your entreaty will be heard and echoed.
With respect I think you are being naive. Nations, and empires especially, act out of self-interest. Not out of humanitarianism. They _use_ humanitarianism as the thin end of the wedge. The expression “soft power” did not arise by accident.
That’s the problem with more military action. Increased civilian casualties are nearly inevitable. After being ineffectual there for so long, this will make us look like the problem, not the solution. And for all I know, in the end that might not be they might not be wrong to think so.
In short, yes, the less our dealings in Afghanistan involve military force at this point, the better.
Time to crawl into my tree.
Peace to you, Maryam.
Be good to yourselves, and all other living things.
Namaste
Considerations that represent our own self-interest will carry more weight with many Americans than concerns about whether we’re making others’ lives better or worse. Sad, but true. It’s how people are, I think.
Goodnight SD.
Goodnight from across the Bay, Southern Dragon.
@111 – exhumed 15 sets of human remains
@109 – dozens of people
@108 – remains of almost 500 people
@107 – massive firefight – [that was a battle]
as i said before, evidence of massacres not genocide.
but more importantly – not one link to the actual forensic report (autopsies, etc), which is what i asked for. if you are only going to link to news reports, i’m not going to read anymore of your links – it’s just a waste of my time.
Perhaps I am being naive, Maryam, or maybe you are being a bit cynical. Wars are almost always fought for power and greed, but very rarely maybe a nation can try to help an oppressed people. People say the U.S. should have stopped the genocide in Rwanda. I wish we would have.
But in Iraq our action was horrible beyond words. I am sorry for it, even though I know that means nothing to you. We killed a million innocent civilians for no reason. I’m sorry.
yes.
same for Iraq.
It will be better, but we have a whole lot of honest apologizing and standing in the corner to do yet.
What we have done is unconscionable.
Thanks SD @ 125.
yes. but it could just be that it looks that way, now that i am paying attention.
Why do you need autopsies? Do you think all those people died of natural causes? What a joke.
What say you about the innocents killed in Afghanistan?
Were we really trying to save those oppressed people?
RonD @ 119
bobschacht @120
amen to you both.
SouthernDragon@125
i hope so. can you imagine what would happen if all the palesinians in all the refuge camps did a mass march (a la the salt march) to jerusalem?
i hope so.
No. Of course Bush and Cheney would never try to help anyone unless they stood to benefit.
yes. different arguments appeal to different poeple. for some it is fear, for some it is compassion.
but in both people’s natural feelings are manipulated to no good purpose. one way we can tell this is the case is that they lie. lies would not be needed if the cause was just.
of course not. but that is what is always done. if it was a genocide there would be the forensic reports to back it up. and those reports are harder to fake than some unsourced news report.
why are you only now objecting to my request for forensic reports? is it because you can’t find reference to them?
That is the same smug arguement conservatives love: if you try to help people you are bound to do more harm than good. Better to let the slaughter go on and not get involved.
You never did answer my question: What would you have done?
Oh, wait– you denied there was any genocide. No autopsies.
Good excuse for not doing anything.
Thank you all @ FDL for caring.
Maryam and all at GG and any Afghans and Iraqis that will read this: I am humbled by your fortitude and grace. Please accept my apologies, my deep concern and my efforts to help.
Thank you Siun.
What about Rwanda? Shoud anyone have intervened there? Was that fake genocide also?
how many times do i have to say that i don’t advocate doing nothing in the case of genocide?
you have made that charge before. it is a lie. and you owe me an apology for it.
no rwanda was genocide as far as i can tell.
but i wouldn’t have advocating bombing them.
which, again, does not mean i support doing nothing.
in the case of rwanda, maybe we could have told the french to stop or we would expose their role?
Ummm,
you are talking to the wrong person there, methinks.
selise is as active (no, MORE) than most here.
selise never does nothing.
(((angie)))
thank you, but there have been far too many times i haven’t done what i should. but i don’t advocate doing nothing – especially in the case of genocide.
If you want to make a charge of genocide stick. You need evidence. That is why quite a lot of human rights groups in Irak are busy marking where there are mass graves – digging up sample corpses and performing autopsies.
That activity is one reason why some human rights groups (such as are Hammurabi) are themselves particularly the target of death squad activity.
You’re saying the French committed genocide in Rwanda?
It was the Hutu’s killing the Tutsis.
It would certainly required some kind of military action to stop it. What would you have done?
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/f…..gewanted=2
This is a news report, not an autopsy so you will disregard it. But any fair minded person reading this will understand it.
exactly.
I never thought I could out-think our “trusted leaders”.
Guess what?
Most of them are like the prom king and queen– vapid and dumb as stumps.
I like geeks and bookworms and librarians much more.
What does it say about our country that nobody– nobody– a few (and me) could even think of electing a visionary like Kucinich?
What a young, inane and dangerous nation we are.
even if you haven’t been following the news, google is your friend. here are two:
http://www.democracynow.org/20…..ficials_in
http://www.boston.com/bostongl….._genocide/
Well I have to work in the morning so I can’t stay up all night. And I know you will never be convinced, Selise. But all I can say is that people like you make the left look silly. Arguing with you is like arguing with a fundie about evolution. You simply deny the facts.
I have a coworker who insists that trilobites are not extinct.
OMG, I was unaware of that.
It looks like the jury is still out, but it seems to be a plausible accusation. I stand corrected.
Still, what would you have done to stop it?
angie – hope to see you again soon. i’ve had enough of the personal attacks for one day.
Adding, because I’m annoyed that I have to argue about something this ridiculous, that you have conveniently avoided answering that question throughout this whole discussion.