Don’t forget McCain thinking that bringing back the draft is a good idea.

Mornin’ Christy!

Christy?

Good Morning. So many links to read. Kevin’s post was welcome news but be prepared for McCain to claim credit. Today he’ll probably announce that he was always for the timeline.

I’m waiting for McSFB to show up at a town hall meeting in his POW outfit.

For all this talk about how awesome McSame is doing, he seems unable to break 45%.

From what rock did that other 25% slither in from?

It was an epiphany

For all this talk about how awesome McSame is doing, he seems unable to break 45%.

And for all the initial support obama had he is unable to maintain his strong showing because he has wiffled and waffled and flipped and flopped his way to the DLC center and now, please no, he looks like he is going to choose milquetoast as a veep. obama needs to show some leadership, some balls, take a damn stand on something other than……what? I know he was losing me with his support of guns, his position on mentally disturbed women not getting an abortion, his embracing of state sponsored murder and , of course, the final straw his stupid, stupid, stupid position on FISA. If as many people vote for “neither of the above” in November as I expect then McSame can win with his 45%.

Karl’s not-so-new campaign strategy.

Sorry, BT! My deepest apologies. Not enough coffee, yet.

Good Morning BT,
The MSM has everyone whipped up into this who will the VP be. I sure will be glad when we can get on with it. It looks like Obama is starting to hit back a little. Last night CNN did two pieces “The real McShame” and “The Real Obama” I am not sure if the truth came out about McShames dumping of his first wife - Did anyone see it?

Democrats who’d prefer continuing George Bush’s policies to Obama are simply out of their minds.

There have to be some pre-DLC Democrats out there who know how to win elections. Eight years of DLC policies followed by 8 years of government dismantling has turned our country into a playground for the rich and a slave state for the rest of us.

That is a silly comment. I am not “out of my mind” I do see that voting obama is just doing the corporate bidding and I will not play that game any more. My spouse and myself are voting for McKinney. Yes it is a protest. No I do not expect McSame to win. If obama wins what do we get? He is a sop to the centre, a corporate tool, a person who, so far, has demonstrated that he has no balls. He speaks of change and the only thing he changes is his mind, continually.

If you think that just by voting for obama things will change, the stars will be brighter, the sky bluer, peace will reign throughout the planet you are seriously dreaming. He has demonstrated that he is happy to do his corporate master’s bidding and that is just more of the same.

What we need are post-DLC candidates that can win elections. We need to promote and push things but expectations that any quick turnabout will happen will lead to frustration.

The Rethug rep for District 56 of the FL State House has said he’s not running this year. The Dems have a no-name, non-registered Dem who won’t talk to the press or do any campaigning. Michael Sternberg, head of the Hillsborough Dem Party said they’ve never fielded a candidate because it’s an R+6 district. How in the hell to you get somebody elected if you don’t get your message out via a candidate and build up a constituency? So you lose 2-3 or more times. Eventually the tide will change. All counties in FL are struggling and here the Dem party is whining that they don’t have a viable candidate in a race they could win hands down. It’s time local parties quit waiting for the DCCC to anoint someone and field candidates who show a real interest in running. The 50-state strategy needs to be expanded to an every congressional district policy. Screw the DCCC.

A few weekends ago campaigners came to our house for obama./ I gently explained that we were not voting for either of the State sponsored candidates. The campaign worker looked at me shocked and said “But if you don’t vote for either of the two candidates the system will not work”

After my wife and I had a good laugh we asked where he thought the “system” had worked in the last forty+ years? Well we do not like the damn system and we will no longer be part of a “System” that tells us for whom to vote especially as both candidates are different sides of the same corporate coin.

That protest has been registered very strongly in 1968, 1980, and 2000. We have it to thank, to a large extent, for Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, and George W. Bush. Altlhough they were not perfect, it is arguable that much more of the New Deal would remain in effect and the country would be in far better shape if Hubert Humphrey, Jimmy Carter/Walter Mondale, and Al Gore had served during those periods. I realize you can’t be convinced, but I fully agree with BT’s remark.

PRINCETON, NJ — The national presidential preferences of U.S. voters remain closely divided between Barack Obama and John McCain, 45% to 43% in favor of Obama. This is according to Aug. 17-19 Gallup Poll Daily tracking.

At the same time, the Democratic Party holds a nine percentage point lead over the Republican Party in the political party identification of U.S. adults, 34% to 25%. When independents who lean toward either party are included, the Democrats’ advantage expands to 12 points, 49% to 37%, leaving 15% with no party preference.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/109.....45-43.aspx

So when independent voters are added in the Democrats go up 12%.
What do you want to bet these independents are not Center Dems but Lefties.

same corporate coin.

In my book that’s the big obstacle. How do we get corporate money and influence (same thing, non?) out of the system. I suggest the first step is legislation stating corporations are not and do not have the constitutional rights of persons. Then we tax the livin’ shit out of them.

It is extremely silly to put down the elections of Nixon, Raygun and Bush1 to the “other party” voting. There were so many other factors, the economy, foreign policy, the beginning of gooper scorched earth campaigning, as yet not realised by the Dems. etc, etc. As for Bush2 that was an election that the SCOTUS stole from America.

If we do not get away from the two party system just how in heck do you expect things to change….. (question from someone “out of their mind”)

What do you want to bet these independents are not Center Dems but Lefties.

I will bet you are oh so correct.

What do you want to bet these independents are not Center Dems but Lefties?

Pretty hard to get any further Left than I am.

Obama could be leading 49% to 37% But nooo he had to move to the Center and now his polls are dropping. Time to admit some mistakes fire some people and move Left.

I find myself in much a similar boat, but rather than voting, will pass by this poll. It has been fifteen years since last lived in the US. I have absolutely no knowledge of any candidate running. To so vote for unknowns is repugnant to me, it is how scoundrels succeed, I will not so vote and lend integrity to the system. As for Obama, I rather doubt he sinks or swims on my one vote, if that were the case, the world is certainly out of balance. Do vote as your conscious directs by all means (and early, and often).

i don’t accept the premise that we have to choose between two candidates we don’t want. mary wrote something a few months ago that i really liked:

What they do is to take the base for granted and act to pick up those who are not in the base. So if you want to have any negotiating power, you have to be something other than the base. You have to be the votes that they have to work to capture, not the givens. And that means being willing to not be captured if they aren’t going to come through, IMO. Which means you have to be committed to the long haul, not the short run

i realize other people may see things differently, but can we argue the merits of the our respective positions without resorting to strawmen (”Democrats who’d prefer continuing George Bush’s policies”) or personal attacks (”simply out of their minds”)? - this last bit was obviously not directed at you crosstimbers.

Democrats who’d prefer continuing George Bush’s policies to Obama are simply out of their minds.

Republicans who’d prefer continuing George Bush’s policies to Obama are simply out of their minds, too.

Of course, some would say that’s a clinical diagnosis for a certain percentage of them. “If your failure to grasp reality lasts longer than eight years, please consult your physician immediately.”

BT is right.

Frankly I was appalled at the personal attack from BT but then I do as my Mom always told me “consider the source”

Well said.

Nevertheless Southern Dragon the poll might be wrong but 12% is a big number.

The 50-state strategy needs to be expanded to an every congressional district policy. Screw the DCCC.

amen.

I should add, that with my voting since 1964 and backing the winning candidate (exceptions Carter and Clinton92) maybe I should vote for McCain to assure Obama’s win ;-)

The splint in the Democratic Party was exactly the reason for Nixon’s election, was a factor in Carter’s defeat, and the Nader candidadacy was a factor in Al Gore’s supposed defeat. Me thinks the Naderites protest too much that it wasn’t a factor.

So you think your Cynthia McKinney vote will bring about more meaninful change than an Obama presidency would? Yeah, that’ll show ‘em. You and yours can chuckle over the next 4 to 8 years. I apologize for any harshness of tone, but I’ve lived under too many really nasty regimes as a result to the continuing “there’s not a dime’s worth of difference,” claim.

Yours truly,
Silly

Agreed

It’s a good point about McSame not being able to break 45. I’ve noticed that all along. I’ve never seen anything like it. The guy who’s winning isn’t doing well and the guy who’s losing is doing great. We’re in for some more, i think. “Obama didn’t get the type of bounce he’d been hoping for.”
Blah, blah, blah. I just keep my eye on the electoral map. I did a not wholly implausible scenario where they tie. Not likely, of course and I forget what it is. But it was fun. Anyway, I still would rather be in BO’s shoes than granpa’s. That said, the good guys need to ratchet things up. Alot. They’ve been just awful so far.

let’s go with your analysis (i have no reason to doubt it, but don’t know enough to judge) that the split within the dem party led to the defeat of the dem candidate.

if that was the case, why not blame the party leaders for abandoning their base instead of the base for responding to that betrayal?

I was agreeing with your premise. I’ve never been registered as anything other than independent, or No Party Affiliation in the current parlance. I have a habit of leaving races blank when I can’t stand any of the candidates but I’ve never voted for a Rethug anything. When I see a Rethug I see Joe McCarthy, J Edgar Hoover, Strom Thurman and Jesse Helms all rolled into one.

CT and BT are right. Everyone else is wrong. Because I say so. There. That’s settled. New topic.

If you are willing to continue the “free election” farce so be it. I will no longer play their game. I think we can all agree that we need something other than the two corporate candidates and a continuation of the same MIC policies the question is how do we get there? Wishing and hoping is not an answer, accepting a choice of “lesser of two evils” will only beget evil and, frankly, I have given up holding my nose and voting.

Anybody know how to make a tropical storm go away? This is just damn depressing. Sunshine State my ass.

I finally figured out something that has been bothering me.

It’s a mistake is to let the bullshitters discuss the surge in the progressive mode, e.g., “the surge is working” or “the on-going success of the surge.” Reframing in the past-perfect tense blows their smoke away, e.g., “If the surge had succeeded, the troops would be home by now.” That simple shift in tense nails their nonsense.

BTW, Bush announced his return-on-success doctrine a year ago, September 13, 2007, and IIRC our forces in Iraq are still above their pre-surge level.

I just vote for who can do the best job.

When the Democratic party abandoned their base (the left) they set themselves up to lose election after election culminating the the terrible clinton eight years of corporate whoreishness.

If you see no major policy differences between Obama and McSame, you’re not paying attention.

The MSM will not cover this story about Obama losing ground though still beating McCain because he did not shore up his Lefty base. That would go against their preconceived ideas about their beloved working class.

Lindsay at the Silo points out

Zogby breaks the results into subgroups including women, people over 35, Democrats, and Southerners. Interestingly, Obama support held up best among respondents making less than $50,000 per year.

http://cliffschecter.firedoglake.com/

So if anything the working class is Obama’s base and David Broder, Brooks and Peggy Noonan’s cheating/conceit of using the common man as the base for all their Obama can’t win predictions is a lie.

Weren’t the iraqis supposed to have taken over control last November?

In the instances I site, the party leaders were as split as the base. In 1968, Gene McCarthy came to lead almost as large a faction as Hubert Humphrey, with party leaders aligned on both sides. Ted Kennedy was a party leader in 1980 and had a faction following him and declining reconcilliation with the more conservative Jimmy Carter. It’s true there was no particular party split in 2000, but Ralph Nader had once been a Democrat and led a significant faction into the wilderness. If HRC followers do not reconcile this time,it is almost sure defeat.

It’s a cliche, but the saying about not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good is true. Otherwise, we would all sit awaiting the perfect circumstances, rather than playing the hand that is dealt.

I know your views, as well as those of nomolos. Of course you are both entitled to them, and I apologize for my tone of frustration. But from my point of view, watching Republicans dominate the second half of the last century and the beginning of this one has been frustrating.

I feel that this could be the most important election of my lifetime. Our economy is at a tipping point and I fear for a McCain presidency. Many people depend on social security and his ideas of privatizing it would take away an important safety net. Your concerns are valid but so are BT’s and mine. Personally I think that a stronger democracy needs to be built from the bottom up and fighting for more progressive representatives is a start.

Clinton won. Twice.

I agree with JPL

Of what? Best job of lying, of taking corporate payouts, of pandering to religionists, of taking away US jobs by supporting NAFTA, of continuing illegal spying on Americans, of supporting guns, of denying mentally disturbed women abortions, what “best job”?

Right again. You on your game this morning. Somebody’s probably gonna disagree. Corporate this, corporate that, blah, blah, blah.

How in the heck can I pay attention if I am out of my mind?

I think the only way we’re going to get to where we want to be is to put progressives in local, state and federal offices. The Rethugs have spent almost 40 years getting ideologues elected at all levels. Unless and until we reverse that trend we go nowhere. We are now seeing at all levels that the long term effects of Rethug non-governance are devastating. It all starts with school boards, city councils and county commissions.

It’s time local parties quit waiting for the DCCC to anoint someone and field candidates who show a real interest in running.

It’s best if the DCCC stays out of it. They often back DINOs and are run by people of the DLC and AIPAC mentality, like Rahm Emanuel.

Besides all sorts of criminal activity the one thing Republicans are branded by the most is ‘REPUBLICAN HYPOCRISY’. Besides it’s ‘every man woman and child for themselves’ ‘HYPOCRISY’ defines their very existance.

Best job of being president as compared with the other candidates.

But from my point of view, watching Republicans dominate the second half of the last century and the beginning of this one has been frustrating.

You mean you don’t like the “System”. Stop voting for the State promoted candidates and the system will change.

David’s upstairs with McNasty

BT, please. it’s too early in the morning

If you see no major policy differences between Obama and McSame

did anyone here actually make that claim? because if not, that’s another strawman.

you’re not paying attention.

everyone here is paying attention, but we do have different views. why not make an argument instead slamming commenters?

So this is what a circular firing squad looks like! ;-)

Thank you selise.

It’s true there was no particular party split in 2000, but Ralph Nader had once been a Democrat and led a significant faction into the wilderness.

bill clinton, with al gore’s help, led the party into the arms of corporate hack. if that hadn’t happened, nader wouldn’t have run and no one would have voted for him.

p.s. i voted for gore, and i even live in a “safe” state.

I didn’t say I didn’t like the system. In my lifetime, I have been able to complete college, earn a decent living, help three children and one grandchild through college, and earn a retirement. But I’m watching those opportunities disappear and my country change from one which, with all it’s faults generally represented a good influence on world history, change into a malevolent influence.

For what it’s worth, I did put in a word of support, just to hear my keyboard rattle, for what it’s worth ;-)

It’s time local parties quit waiting for the DCCC to anoint someone and field candidates who show a real interest in running. The 50-state strategy needs to be expanded to an every congressional district policy. Screw the DCCC

Absolutely, and I know we’re working on it here, and I know that the Obama campaign has been both furthering and using the 50-state strategy to get it done.

But the 50-state “leave no precinct unturned” must be extended past presidential and congressional races; it must help every down-ticket race, who in turn should be emergent from the grassroots that is the strategy itself.

I can tell you that the Michigan Supreme Court is one example; although allegedly nonpartisan, the court is now stacked with MORON conservatives, the worst of which is up this November for reelection. Because there was no effective grassroots machine actively recruiting candidates over the last two election cycles, we have nobody that the party has thrown behind to run against an idiot who is little better than a ham sandwich. The party machine has been waiting for a savior, an anointed one to descend from the heavens, actually bearing effing cash in hand to run; they won’t talk to anybody who doesn’t have money, so the scanty grassroots effort with a solid candidate is dismissed out of hand.

We are so in need of a massive party purge. For those of you opting out, the purge will not happen without your help; there are two few of us with the shoulder to the wheel,

two few. oop.

meant too few.

but it sure feels like two sometimes.

The strategy of the Rethugs is to get you to vote for them or not vote at all
The strategy of the Dems is to get you to vote for them or not vote at all
The not vote at all category could be 80% of the electorate does anyone think that either the rethugs or demos give a shit. All they need is 51% of those who vote

I agree, what happens when China($503.8 billion) and Japan($583.8 billion) no longer buy our bonds?

The local parties have taken on the dynamics of the Rethugs. Do nothing on your own, wait for the very important people from the Beltway to anoint someone. The Pinellas County Dems are working in that direction. A lot of the old-time party hacks have been thrown on the trash heap and young progressive Dems are stepping up. I thought about switching my registration to Dem from NPA but I’m way too radical for this bunch right now. In a couple years perhaps.

Exactly. The milestones keep ticking by, but the failure is never declared. Rather they shift from future tense to the progressive mode: “The surge is succeeding, but its success is fragile and reversible.” The key is that “is succeeding” is a euphemism for “has failed.”

But, there were deadlines, and those deadlines were not met. So, keep the discussion in the so-called “perfect form”: “The surge has failed.” What we have now is continuation of that escallation.

They know that the decrease in violence is strategically meaningless, or they’d have brought the troops home. Moqtada al Sadr and the Iranians are simply waiting us out.

You did indeed as did SouthernDragon and I thank you both. I was a little taken aback by the personal attack by the idiot poster from Texas and did not know how to respond without saying what I thought. I would have thought that the poster would not have thought so highly of herself that she found in necessary to attack a commenter with rudeness. But then again I only spent a day or so in Texas so I thought it was the State of Ivins and Richards not of Hughes and BlueTexan.

OK I did say what I thought after all.

The local party in NH was taken over by the DLC and still suffers the pangs. Carol Shea Porter and Hodes won their seats in spite of the party hacks trying their darndest to dissuade them from running. You right the purge must start at the bottom… my wife has a saying that you must vote against them for dogcatcher so that you won’t have to fight them for Congress. It is going to be a long road back from the DLC.

Just out of curiosity, what do you perceive as a “personal attack” from BT’s responses? I saw an attack on your argument but nothing that attacked you personally.

“bill clinton, with al gore’s help, led the party into the arms of corporate hack.”

I might not agree with everything Bill Clinton did, but I don’t hold him or his administration in the contempt you do. I think the country and the Constitution would be in much better shape, as well as the economy, our standing in the world, and almost every other aspect of our existence, if Gore had been in office (even if with no change in Clintonian policies) than with the disasterous G.W. Bush administration. I think Nader and his followers contributed to what has happened in the last 8 years and don’t seem to have learned anything from it.

when a front page poster unfairly attacks a commenter, imo it shouldn’t be up to that commenter to defend themselves - the rest of us should jump up do defend one of our own. that’s solidarity and that’s the opposite of the circular firing squad.

nomolos, you and i have disagreed on occasion and i’m sure we will again. but imo that one of the values of the discussion here - honest disagreements argued fairly and with respect helps everyone and even changes minds (i know i have). it’s when the disagreements become an excuse to treat each other like trolls that the discussion breaks down… (p.s. understand the sentiment, but the “idiot” even if crossed out probably isn’t going to help convince BT to rethink her/his approach).

i agree completely that the country would have been far, far better off with gore instead of bush. but i blame first bush and then gore for that.

It is going to be a long road back from the DLC.

Yes, it is. It will take a lot of hard work, frustration and all that other nasty shit to get it done. Nor will be done overnight. Folks have to realize that if we can change a few things this time around we can continue to do so but it’s going to take time. Americans simply must get over this “I want what I want and I want it right now” attitude.

Your p.s. is correct. And now back to the question of the day. “Who on the McSame campaign lobbies for Poland?”

I think at this point of time, each has a tendency to get so much invested in emotional capital, it starts interfering with objectivity, particularly in that ability to actually hear what the other is saying. When the whole system is in a state of failure, the noise makes it even harder to be heard. For what it is worth, maybe letting go and letting the edifice collapse of its inconsistencies will prove to be the best solution. For sure, most of the security devices present in the political system have been jimmied and broken. New engineers and architects will be needed to reconstruct the governing edifice. What is left of the old is badly compromised and cannot be used. It is fin de era time.

The only image of this Olympics that will stay with me until my last breath:

Shawn Johnson wearing white No Nukes/Peace symbol earrings during her interview with Bob Costas the day after she won the gold.

Suck on this, NBC.

Off to swim in the great capitalist cesspool.

Be good to yourselves, and all other living things.

Namaste

Good morning to all;

The discussion (and ‘cussin’) diplayed in this thread is critical to how we shall all move or not move in creating a more humane and just society, society being simply, how people treat each other, and despite differences of significant import as to political philosophy or expediency, this discussion remained, essentially, respectful and thoughtful.

It needs to be continued as it has long been going on beneath the radar of ‘conventional wisdom’.

Rather than rushing off to savor the latest ‘outrage’, those who truly care, which is everyone here I am certain, would do better, in my opinion to work at devising strategies which would allow those points upon which we all agree, and which are many, to be heard and not dismissed out of hand by the democratic powers that be.

To that end, as Southern Dragon suggests, the solution lies in actually gaining power within the structure, starting at the grass-roots level.

That is a strategy upon which we all may agree, I would hope?

It is the nature of human nature that we all have differing viewpoints because we all all viewing what is going on from different ‘points’. To insist that we present a united r-like ‘front’ is NEVER going to be a winning strategy simply because, unlike far too many folk, we all think for ourselves. Regardless, we’ve far more in common than appearances might suggest.

In spite of the self-evident facts that many are disgusted while others, if not sanguine, are at least somewhat comfortable with the conviction that d’s are always better than r’s, we all share an abiding concern with actual reality rather than bowing to the obviously destructive ‘policies’ of psycological domination, the callous exercise of brute power and the mindless worship of greed.

From discussion such as has unfolded here, today, we must build our world’s future.

It won’t be easy, nor often fun, but, in our situation, it must be done.

Great thanks and much appreciation for all that each and every one of you do, share, and stand for, as well as for what you simply won’t tolerate.

;~D

Mornin’ All,

SD - it’s not the first time they have been p’wned on that :D

hey Blue Texan, wha . . .no sprinkles on those cookies ?

Those are actually waffles.

BT you is not wafflin’ from yer evil ways when it comes to properly respectin’ the pow-sible inhabitant of that there ‘people’s House’ in Dee Cee.

Good on ya (nuanced breakfast-food and all ‘foolishness’ aside orders)!

;~D