Ian! Zed

Thank you for the post, Ian.
So what do we do?

That’s only half the story: McCain does a lot better than “generic Republican”. Too much of the public buys this “maverick” / “war hero” stuff.

So what’s the solution?

The moral and political imbecility of FISA and other right wing pandering is that base voters are easier to get than the voters in the vanishing “center”.

And base voters don’t have really really high standards and expectations—except for fundamental things. Like the CONSTITUTION.

I think we should just create independent groups to bash McCain, since Obama won’t. I don’t necessarily think Obama is wrong to avoid it; attacks tarnish the attacker. But it needs to be done.

I think a lot of it is up to the campaign, honestly. They did go hard on the attack today and there are signs of shoring up the base (for example saying nice things about Single Payor, for once), but then Daschle and Feingold go on TV and undercut the attack message with “John McCain is an honorable man who’d be a good president” blithering.

So lets see.

Dems think John McCain would be a good president. So do Republicans. However, only Democrats think Obama would be a good president.

So why not go McCain if both parties agree he’s a man of honor who’d be a good president. Frankly Clark was deep-sixed by the campaign for far less egregious sins.

Such groups existed. Obama told the large donors to defund them. The large donors obeyed his wishes. Most of the strongest groups now do not have money to run large ad runs.

I recommend duct tape and plastic – lots of it.

;~(

or the infrastructure in place.

Ian,
I have mixed emotions on this. A few number to think about though. In ‘04, Bush and Kerry combined for roughly 122M total votes with both of them receiving more votes than anyone ever before.

In ‘08 in the Dem primary season, Obama and Clinton combined received roughly 36M votes, with both of them receiving more primary votes than anyone ever before.

If Obama is starting out down 28% of Clinton primary supporters, that is roughly 5/5.5M votes which still leaves him at 31M needing to pretty much double that to reach the Bush and/or Kerry levels from ‘04.

Do I wish Obama were tending to the liberal “base” of the Democratic Party? Absolutely. Do I suspect a lot of the delta between Obama’s polling and the “generic” Democrat polling is racial? Absolutely.

I also believe that we will need to fight TradMed as well as the Republican Slime Machine.

Nevertheless, I also believe that Obama IS a product of the Chicago Democratic Party machine and DOES know how to fight and win. McCain is hanging on by his fingernails when Obama has been on vacation for 2 weeks. Next week with the convention will go a long way (IMNSVHO) to drowning out a lot of the noise against Obama.

Of course, as always, I may also be a total freakin’ idiot.

So in theory, if one could pressure Feingold and Daschle to stop posting “Vote McCain” signs on their lawns, that might help?

The numbers to watch will be about a week after both conventions are done. Both candidates should get a bump, I wouldn’t take it too serious, unless one or the other can hold onto it.

Only MoveOn asked my opinion about that.. and at the time I replied I was adamantly opposed.

It sure wouldn’t hurt. And Daschle is Obama’s main man. He should know better.

Of course, as always, I may also be am not a total freakin’ idiot.

fixed for ya

This election may, as it already has in many ways, turn history on its head, with down-ticket races being the coattails for the top of the ticket…

I’m not about to second-guess Obama. He’s caught me off-guard for the past four years, and I’ve been a political nerd for almost sixty years.

This is what running to the center before you’ve secured your base gets you.

Ian, I have to respectfully disagree. The Clintons did everything they could to compare HRC favorably with McSame. Is anyone surprised that a hunk of her supporters would turn against their own party when she didn’t get the nomination?

Nevertheless, I also believe that Obama IS a product of the Chicago Democratic Party machine and DOES know how to fight and win.

If he’s keeping his powder dry it had better be damned potent powder and he’d better bring it out soon.

I’ve seen the rope-a-dope analysis but that’s little comfort.

i don’t think you’re ever an idiot-freakin’ or otherwise…

—–

fly-by

i think they’re too much spaghetti (issues and events) flyin’ at the wall (candidates)to see which ones are gonna stick just yet…..

agendas are gonna be addressed and set at the conventions, after that, we’ll see what the polls say….and that is a different kind of strategy, how to send out a cohesive message over an entire week involving many different people…and the vp pick.

hopefully someone has a plan on how obama can come out of it not covered in noodles.

we need some teflon…and a can of stick-em…

bbl.

The Clintons did everything they could to compare HRC favorably with McSame.
***
I didn’t see it that way.

edit 21

there’s not they’re

bbl

“their you go again”… :~)

“Generic Democrat” is a white guy. Just sayin’.

And the campaign hasn’t begun yet.

I have been a reader of FDL and a very occasional commenter since it’s inception. So much to learn, and so much snarky humour to make me laugh! However, the last few months, this site has become increasingly so negative – people whom I have always admired saying now they won’t vote – people only finding negative things to say about Obama and other Dems.

I am now finding I check in a few times a day as usual, but I can’t read the comments with the same feelings I used to have as someone who felt sympatico with the other pups, whether I agreed or not. Now, I read other sites instead, because the continual negativity here is against what I want to do – which is to help, not denigrate. Sorry – I miss what this site used to be.

I know you won’t be missing me – but I miss you all . . .

K.

yep.

you can sure prick ‘em.

lol

bbl. i need food.

28 was to the punster…

I know what you mean. Take a look at this site and see if you’d like to join our growing community. Alfred (the Spook) Kelgarries and I started it, and some of the commenters here (and some former ones) write guest posts. And we’ve located the site in a gorgeous beach house with amazing views and lots of relaxation.

Based on the evidence so far, I’d be a fool to bet against Obama’s sense of strategy.

A lot of folks have seen and commented on the negativity, but it’s helpful for everyone to be part of the solution. That includes you!
Pop in and say something uplifting if you think that’s what we need. Right?

I don’t see how he can win losing that much of the base. Running to the right isn’t going to get them back and even the evangelicals he’s been kissing up to are moving against him (though he’s still doing better with them than Kerry.)

And look at the personal qualities list. Just awful. Everyone needs to stop saying “John McCain is honorable”. Everyone. The candidate on down. You don’t have to say “he’s dishonorable” (though you should) but stop praising him.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, we need to make like Republicans and attack our opponents’ strength.

They think re-heating the Cold War is going to be a winning strategy, we need to attack hard to point out what an incompetent dolt McCain is. If they can make Bush seem like more of a War Hero than John Kerry, then we ought to be able to make a bat-shit crazy hothead look like a bat-shit crazy hothead.

I would hope that’s not overly ambitious for us.

And in reality Barack Obama would be SO much better at handling touchy diplomatic situations than anyone the Republicans could trot out.

More people are paying attention now than usually do in August. McCain and Obama are being defined now and such narratives are very hard to change.

If anyone over there finds “the solution”, you’ll let us know, I hope.

Ah yes, dry powder. I remember that.

Hi TexBetsy! Thank you for your response! I always have followed your contributions (and your journey with your health and the kids who have been part of your life)! I have added the site you recommended to my list.

I hope life is going to start taking care of you as well as you take care of everyone else!

Best wishes,
K.

Obi seemed to inspire support when we was campaigning in the primary and since then it seems like he’s hanging out instead of taking the fight to McCain.

What we do hear is more and more of his movement to the right which is not inspiring the people who saw him as representing change, whether right or wrong… and that meant to them, I assume not more of the centrist blue dog nonsense. The folks wanted someone who really advocating for them and he seems to be cozying up to the same crowd of Beltway “advisers” and corporate shills.

It’s becoming more like voting for the lesser of two evils. One very evil and the other one the same old same old pol crap.

McCain has to be exposed for the jerk he is. And that SHOULD be easy, because he has so many weaknesses. WHy he gets a pass is beyond me.

ATTTTTTTTTTTTAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKK

if we lose this election I will then knowa as a fact, we deserve the fascist state we asked for when we fielded this candidate

you can sure prick ‘em.

speaking of which…

This post wasn’t an attack on Obama’s personal qualities. Cheerleading a failing strategy does no one any good and blind optimism is… unwise. I really, simply, cannot write “everything’s going great” posts when I see strong evidence to the contrary. And Americablog is a blog that is so pro-Obama they destroyed their own commenting community for him – and that’s where the poll analysis I linked to comes from – his strongest partisans in the blogosphere.

But maybe I should just shut up and let the good ship Obama sail merrily on, everyone cheering as it takes on water.

Except, of course, that I want Obama to win.

In any case, I wish you all the best wherever you wind up

His religion pitch was enough to make me vomit.

Can’t pols simply say religion has nothing to do with being president. Nothing NADA not an issue. We don’t care if he has faith or doesn’t and it’s NO ONE’S business.

We’re in for the long haul. So it’s good to sit back and enjoy beautiful moments and community between bursts of fighting back and getting incensed.

Ad responses I’d love to see Obama doing.

Obama in shirtsleeves behind a desk
“Today, lets analyze at the newest McCain campaign ad. We will look at how it works as political propaganda and explain the messages hidden inside, whether it is factually truthful, what the ad is concealing, and grade it for effectiveness.”

Then in a 2-3 minute Youtube take down the curtain of propaganda, like the shows explaining how magic tricks work.If Obama is a new politician, he won’t be using them. Might as well expose the manipulative techniques before they can be deployed against him and immunize the electorate.

We should acknowledge that the entire Republican/conservative forces, all of talk radiao and a very complicit tv media have been trained on Obama for months now, not on the Democratic Party. Why would we not expect obama to be down?

Each of the individual Republicans have to fight their own battles against their Dem counterparts, but the party, the pundits and the media are firing every day at Obama. And Dems are not ahead because the public thinks they’ve done a wonderful job; they’re ahead because the hatred of Bush has hurt the Republican brand. Hence, McCain, with the media’s help, is running as “the original maverick” a campaign to escape the Bush hatred. so McCain runs way ahead of the Republican generic. No surprise there.

The question is, could any other Democrat Presidential candidate have withstood that and still be ahead? Let alone as far ahead as the “generic” Dem (which does not exist) is ahead of the generic Repug (which doesn’t exist).

We want obama to hit McCain much harder; perhaps he will. But i think it’s a mistake to claim, given all of this, that the central problem — the closeness of this race — is because Obama is a seriously flawed candidate? Compared to which of the candidates we’ve had in the last 30 years? Kerry? Dukakis?

THANK YOU!!! (sorry for the shout)
Life is still stabbing at the base of my spine this week, but hoping for improvement soon.

yep, that’s what i was playin’ off of, but i was starvin’, so didn’t take the time for the link….thanks for the link so everybody ‘got it’…heh….

bbl

nedra prickler?

And now comes a milquetoast VP choice. Great move OBI… who is going to cheer for that one?

Long haul is good.
And, I appreciate those moments as well.
But, you will share any solutions, right?

For a smart guy, Obama is in dire need of wisdom. That does not come out of books; you can’t learn it. All the experience in the world will not make McShame a better President, but it certainly seems to be making him a better campaigner. McBush is taking advantage of every trick in the trade; Obama’s problem is that he is not.

Nice.

Yes! Spot on.

And,
Of course Demi.

This is not a post about Barack’s personal characteristics. I don’t mention them AT ALL.

It is a post about Obama’s strategy.

However, if you want to talk Obama’s personal qualities, here’s the problem – Americans are coming to see McCain as having better qualities than Obama. If that’s what they think, well, Obama’s going to lose.

When Daschle and Feingold get on TV and say McCain’s a man of honor and would be a good president; when Clark gets deep-sixed for attacking McCain’s greatest strenght head on; when Obama praises McCain himself. Well, this is a problem. And it’s a strategy problem – it comes from the top.

With the economy in a a depression it’s hard to imagine a republican being returned to ANY office.

If they are it is indication of how stupid and uninformed those who vote are.

Are you better off than you were 8 yrs ago? POUND IT HARD.

I kinda like a prez who knows that HE (or she) is not God. Beyond that, none of my business.

Thanks, demi, for your invitation to contribute. I just feel overwhelmed by the brilliant people who have been commenters here for so long, that it would be inappropriate for me to ‘pop in’ with my opinions, especially since the majority of comments here no longer align with my thoughts. I am just not up to a fight here. I prefer to take my energies to do some activism in my state and local campaigns, and whatever I can do to help Obama get elected.
Thanks again.
K

When you fight you don’t praise the other guy. This is a “war” of sorts and you take the gloves off and attack at every opening and even CREATE OPENINGS to attack.

The party needs some discipline and Feingold and Daschle need to be taken to the woodshed and spanked. If they won’t attack then then need to shuddup.

Democrats need to say that McCain is D A N G E R O U S as president. Not that he would be a good president, or that he’s better than other GOPs on climate change, or that he’s an honorable man, or that they respect his service to his country. They need to say, over and over and over, that electing him president is D A N G E R O U S.

It is the best message, because everything McCain says and does feeds into it: Georgia, the draft, confusing Sunni and Shia, bomb bomb bomb Iran, everything. It has the added virtue of being true.

Not everyone here brilliant. I am one of the non brilliant ones and I chime in whenever I want. You should too.

and we have yet to see the worst of what they plan to do. Thusfar the rethugs have been operating just as should have been anticipated. No really big surprises. So the question is with all the “talent” the dems have and all of the times we have seen this before, why has there not been a better response?

oh and Scarecrow, YGM.

And while they are at it, OBI should declare that he wants JoeLie tossed out of the party NOW.

Ian,

Never did I say anything about ‘cheerleading’ – nor did I suggest such a thing. Positive doesn’t mean cheerleading. Negative to me is only seeing the bad things and projecting failure if Obama doesn’t do what we say he should. Somehow, I still think he is smart and knows what he is doing – and needs a little faith in him from his supporters.

Where I ‘end up’? What does that mean?

What SanderO said

Ask anyone

Really

;~P

The people who get to push the buttons up there in the campaign are not the right ones obviously. They don’t know how to wage a campaign war… perhaps learning on the job???

Actually I see it (your post) adressing many of the same concerns kathleen expresses in a roundabout way.

I wouldn’t have a clue how to represent Obama’s issues right now.. If i were knocking on doors for him. We need ten very simple points of light… rock hard kitchen table issues which grass rooters know he both stands for and which separates him completely from McBush.

whatever I can do to help Obama get elected.

That certainly seems to align with my thoughts! If you have thoughts and ideas, please share them.

What Hillary said to promote McSame also didn’t help much. Thank you so much, Hillary! So you’ve changed your tune now, but it’s too late! If Obama or anyone else did that to you or your husband, would you tolerate it? Do either of you have any really good master strokes to undo the damages?

Attack!!! And sounds like a great focus for your energies.

This is a good point.

Ian, if you want to make that point, go to the campaign and read them the riot act on their strategy.

Posting this thing, while it may have truth to it is not helping getting more support, but rather making people feel despondent and helpless.

Best of luck with everything you do.
Do what works and feels right for you.

Can’t pols simply say religion has nothing to do with being president. Nothing NADA not an issue. We don’t care if he has faith or doesn’t and it’s NO ONE’S business

Similar to accepted practice in nearly every other developed nation? Better if they could. Unfortunately, in this country while a politician doesn’t have to be a bible thumper, some concession to the legitimacy of religion is required.

Obama at least comes across as sincere. In ‘04, Dean should have kept his mouth shut. Asked to name his favorite book in the New Testament, “The part about Job.” Informed Job was in the Old Testament, “Uh, any of the Gospels.”

I feel the spirit of tRex in da house

Antone else?

yea… what are his 10 points to change direction?

anyone?????

IMO, McCain is going to receive 40% of the vote anyway and he will receive an additional 3 or 4% because Obama is black. It seems to be the unspoken demographic but it is there. A named democratic has two opponents, the MSM and the republican and that is an issue that we need not forget. Do I think that Obama should laugh off McCain’s attack by saying he forgets what he says from one day to the next, hell, yes… But let’s be honest and admit that a NAMED democratic candidate has to run against the MSM also.

One of his points should be…

We support religious freedom and that includes keeping it out of politics and government. I will answer no questions about my religious practices or beliefs.

heck, I would jump with joy if he would lay 5 on the table forus.

New Pro-Obama book coming out soon …

Digg It :

http://digg.com/2008_us_electi…..lsea_Green

Pre-order at Amazon at Reduced Price …

The personal attacks sure don’t seem to be hurting McLame much! He attacks Obama’s patriotism, then says he’s just attacking his judgment and everybody says oh, okay, and leaves it at that. No harm, no foul. Nice!

Oh no. Facts are facts.
We each have the free will to react in whichever fashion we want.
If someone doesn’t want to hear bad news, well, then they shouldn’t follow politics. There’s always the bowling team.

It sounded like you were saying you didn’t enjoy it here anymore and wouldn’t be around.

I have very little faith in most leaders. Probably a personal failing.

McCain = Four More Years of Bush

Rinse and repeat. How can anyone vote for that?

McCain is the kind of man who believes it’s okay to insinuate his opponent is unpatriotic, and then the lie about having said it.

Obama is the kind of man who believe it’s not okay to do those things.

But they way this gets echoed via the wurlitzer and a complicit media, it comes out: (1) McCain is patriotic, but Obama is not.

What should happen is the public decides, (2) “McCain is not an honorable man, but Obama is.”

Those are the contrasting messages. For every post I write with message 2, there are a thousand reports to millions more listeners with message 1. Guess what? Message 1 is winning.

How do we solve this? We need more of us pounding message 2 and shaming the media for complicity in message 1.

Failing that, we lose, but it’s partly our fault, not just his. Shouting at the captain is pointless. Better to Pick up an oar and start rowing.

Oh! Do I know where you are coming from! FDL is a dog-eat-dog scene now on the comments. The site content improves amazingly, whilst the commenting declines apace. And here it is open season by rubes against the “intellekshuls”. I am fed up. This is not the FDL I have known all these years, and I question the time and energy I have devoted recently to commenting.

One of their darlings has just returned after a highly choreographed and melodramatic hiatus, and what is his first act? To direct foul invective against me, complete with ad hominem attacks, and this despite he does not know me at all. There is a subset of Firedoggies who have extreme issues with anger management and impulsivity. Their antics tend to vitiate the wonderful efforts of Jane, Christy, et al.

Ian, I hope that you take the time to read my comments at 76 because it’s important to realize that once a candidate is named, MSM goes full steam ahead.

You almost sound like a deejay… ‘cept is “forya”

;~P

Agree, and that campaign reenforced that line today. I’ve echoed it the last two or three posts, because as you say, “it has the added advantage of being true.”

It does start seeming like a self-fulfilling prophecy after a while, doesn’t it? If you don’t read Al Giordano yet, you’d probably really like it there (of course, don’t leave here either since there’s such a wide variety of opinion, which makes it great!). His whole mission has been ending the rampant “chicken little-ism” that’s taking hold in a lot of Liberal circles.
http://narcosphere.narconews.c…..n-underdog

This last Electoral Vote map that now has McInsane ahead makes some pretty big assumptions. It has McInsane winning FL, OH, and VA. Current collection of polls has all three of those at a dead heat factoring margin of error. If Obama wins just one of those, he wins the election, even giving them all their other questionable assumptions. EV’s are all that matters after all, just like superdelegates in primary season. Remember how the Obama campaign snuck up on everyone with their strategy? Next thing you knew, he had an insurmountable lead. Smart, smart team and strategy.

Plus, Obama just outraised McInsane by almost double last month, and the DNC outraised the RNC. Can you imagine this happening in recent Prez elections at this point?!? And McInsane is switching to the $80 million TOTAL in public funding next month which is all he’ll have for the rest of the campaign. Obama might raise that in one month.

Oh, and for a fun exercise about the ability of polls to predict election outcomes, it’s funny to check the days leading up to the Iowa caucuses. Almost all had Hillary winning, some by a lot. She came in third. Why is that? Ground game, and Obama has and continues to build a ground game that’s never been seen before. We’re in great shape.
http://tpmelectioncentral.talk…..r/2008/01/
(scroll down to Jan 1-3)

Sure, polls can give a sense for trends, but at this early stage in the game this recent shift is going to be a positive. After a lull and re-grouping by Obama and supporters, this should get people fired up again back to Iowa and Super Tues standards. Look out. So, overall we have some great numbers in our favor, and the defeatists and sour grapes Clinton supporters weren’t going to be doing much volunteering anyway, so I’m personally happy to not have them killing my buzz. More and Better!

Saturday night McCain went on stage and lied about being in a room and not being able to hear. Today Cindy McCain admitted not meeting Mother Teresa when she adopted her children and what have we heard on the media. John McCain calls Obama testy.

Not everyone here brilliant. I am one of the non brilliant ones and I chime in whenever I want. You should too.

Too modest, SanderO. I seek out your comments, both for their content and for the modes of their expressions. There is most definitely a thread of know-nothing anti-intellectualism amongst a sub-set of FDL commenters, and they are both loud and inarticulate.

What are you talking about?

Here’s how it’s done. Granted it’s fiction—the West Wing—but pay attention.

What are you talking about?

Obama is wise to not make waves until after the conventions. McCain is not the fave of all Rs.

After McC gets his party’s nomination, then hit him with all we’ve got.
A full expose that will rip him and his creds to shreds.

I think that’s what the Obama camp is waiting for. The MSM will respond … how? It could be fun!!

One thing about a community of commenters — and this has always been a community — is that you will get all sorts, some calm, some less so, some firebrands, some incredibly shy/sensitive. The commenting rules were always meant to allow all to be here, but to keep those most animated from inadvertently hurting those less so.

For those of us who can be animated (or opinionated), it is a hard rule to follow, sometimes, but essential. The community always needs those who have concerns such as yours to be willing to speak up, to protect the community, and not become discouraged by its diversity of emotions. Hang in there.

I resemble that remark

I’m leaving

I am currently living in MN. Want to do lunch or coffee and a good chat? Please see my other comments downthread in response to your post. I can take time out to meet intelligent, sympathetic people who are part of my own concerns (not necessarily limited to those who agree with me).

pop in, pop off, pop out

works for me!

I tend to be more radical and anti capitalist which is where I think many of our problems lie.

It’s not politics which is killing us but capitalism which is the modus operandi of the corporations who control our government and make it’s policies… the MIC, big OIL, the insurance industry and of course the thieves of Wall street and so forth.

My beef with FDL is that they rarely drill down and attack capitalism and it’s weakness and the fact that out problems stem from exploitation and the belief that “america is about wealth creation”.

*In his very best Peter Sellers*

“Yoor pup oht lahghter ess reefooseeng to pup oht”.

I’m still commenting about Ian’s post, unfortunately, by myself. You are definitely right about the community thing, though. Raven has reappeared in the afternoon the last few days and he has been sorely missed. Whether one agrees with his sentiments or not they have always been expressed with zest and honesty.

I like that bit. Why don’t REAL pols say it?????????

very good question.

I am inclined to agree with you. We all have so much emotion invested in the outcome of this election that we examine every tidbit of info under a microscope in an effort to discern the future. I’ve seen too many Democratic candidates self destruct to say that I am confident but I remain cautiously optimistic.

Warning the captain that his course isn’t working and leads to disaster isn’t kibitzing.

lack of courage?

We want obama to hit McCain much harder;

that doesn’t describe me.

i want obama to stand up for what matters to me.

then i will be hitting mccain.

I think it’s a fair comment. But I also think that the Obama campaign has not honestly been trying to define John McCain. Who knows what the press would do if Obama, well, went all out. Sure, it might fail, but it might work. Yes, there is a bias, but it’s built in and you have to fight anyway.

Thanks for your message, Bonkers!

Now I really need to return to the Olympics! (-: (I will be back – reading at least for sure.)

And thanks to all -
K

Teddy, demi: I am assuredly not talking about you folks. I value interchange with such as you.

This does not lend itself to open discussion here, but I think that you can see who has mounted these vicious attacks. It is all there in the comments, but it takes a bit of research to track it all down. In some instances , Moderator has trimmed the sails of these churls.

In some few cases the offending parties have latterly self-censored, and I applaud that. For my part, I do not and will not engage these churls because that is what eggs them on.

I am up in years, I have only so much time and so much I yet desire to do in my life. My academic writing takes a very great deal of my time, time willingly given, but also time FDL takes from that. I am questioning whether or not FDL is worth the candle to me, given that there are so many insults and flame attempts. This is not about growing a thicker skin. No skin can withstand a flamethrower’s blast, nor the talons of a voracious and angry bird of prey.

I appreciate many interlocutors with whom I have shared on FDL, and I hesitate to single any out for praise and thanks lest I inadvertently ignore some worthies. Certainly you two are on the list of worthies. (And lest I am taken to task for judgmental elitism, I point out that “worthies” is a standard term for people who have advanced a cause, and not some pernicioous exclusionary value judgment.)

I appreciate good snark and myself aspire to get in a good one myself once in a while. But we are not talking about snark here. This is far more serious.

Um, PW’s probably gettin’ a complex upstairs

Definitely agree. I would like to see Obama brush off McCain’s comments by pointing out that he can’t remember what he said the day before. I would also like to see him attack Repubs in general by pointing out that they only win on fear.

Agreed, SanderO!

Perhaps, given my proclivities and training, I feel most of the time that many people begin discussions too early; that they do not drill down deeply enough to get to first principles. That said, this is a results-driven site and one not set up, as it seems now to me, to do political philosophy.

Also, given my training as an intellectual historian (history of ideas), I do seek for the antecedents of the given here-and-now.

Hi Cleanth! Would love to get together – and with any others that are in the Twin Cities. Please contact me at kfaricy at comcast dot net.

(-:

Sorry, anyone who’d even think of voting for McCain isn’t a part of the “Base” of the Democratic Party. It took me awhile to understand what a “Puma” was as it was a definition concocted by the Republicans (orginally meaing a younger version of ‘Cougar’ which shows the sexist feeling of Rethugs).

The big problem isn’t so much Obama it’s that the Democratic Party is so far to the Right it’s not an authentic countvailing party to conservatism. Dems like Obama are just too naive to understand they’re facing a malicious force of NeoFascists meaning to profit from the misery of others. Part of the Rethug party is certainly the “Military-Industrial Complex” which needs fear and possible war to keep business flowing. Another sector of the economy is the Financial industry that is such an enlarged wart on the bubble-politic. Obama unfortunately has connections with that faction too.

After seeing elections go one way or the other in the last few decades I am becoming less concerned about which party rules but more concerned about the ideology of libertarian, fascism (not as much as a contrast as one might think), and general conservatism that permeates both major parties. McSame or ‘Third-way’ Obama? Not sure we’ll feel the effects differently. But McSame has a militaristic bent that is chilling so let us fight for Obama’s win….and yell for him to step it up as he’s losing this if he doesn’t step it up!

I recall something a while back but the details are hazy so I don’t recall who the offending people were.

We do occasionally get sanctioned for writing some comments. For example questioning the 911 “story” is considered out of bounds here and if you push it you get moderated and dressed down.

I don’t understand why politely expressed views, regardless of what they are, should be trounced as ad hominem attacks. Bad form.

i don’t think that obama is an honorable man..

but there’s really no way for me to judge – and imo the same holds true for you. i can judge his actions. all this focus on character strikes me as working on a narrative not because we have evidence that it’s true, but because we think it is helpful.

i’m not signing up for that.

I think rather than dangerous, as a friend pointed out and as you suggest, using

weak, old, forgetful, impotent

is what should be done.

Dangerous = strong and that’s bad for us and good for McCain, in its own way, unless you push it to “nuclear apocalypse bad” but this isn’t the 50’s any more.

And Obama is being defined as an ivy league pantywaist. That’s very bad.

that works for me.

Thank you, Scarecrow. I have been on the verge of leaving. And I have followed FDL from its first days.

You, Scarecrow, have been on my mental list of commenters whom I esteem and from whom I benefit in forming my takes on the things which so concern us.

Actions are how you learn about someone’s character. McCain’s actions are what tell us he is not honorable.

I use a “mental ignore” list as well. Helps my sanity immensely. Highly recommended.

i don’t disagree with that. it’s the characterization of obama that i disagreed with. :(

I think the results thingy is spot on. We are urgeed to call, fax and letter write and influence policy being made NOW… as opposed to questioning some of the “foundations” of the system which is MAKING those policies.

Why don’t we question the entire national security state narrative?

When we rail against torture at Gitmo, why don’t we rail against it in EVERY STATE prison in this country? Our criminal justice system is broken and we throw people in prison and toss away the key. That is a form of torture in itself.

So Ian …

If the Democrats succeed in losing this battle for the soul and conscience of the nation (though of a certainty, THEY don’t see it that way, as they will lead comfortable lives regardless) then exactly and precisely what reward should they ( and especially them what consider Mc$ame such a great guy and potentially fabulous Preznit) expect from us?

Realizing that we’ve no ‘place’ to ‘go’ and we shall HAVE TO RETURN to the ‘fold’ for the next exciting episode in the Flop-Along-Half-Assedly series of debacles which now define the Oh-so-goody-guys-and-gals of lesser weevildom, aka the democratic partay, what in hell can thoughtful people do except to acquiesce as gracefully as possumble to the inevitable?

Why do I continue to have the feeling that the d’s don’t really wish to put their lives, their (often) considerable fortunes and their sacred
honor (HA!) on the line?

Does it ever seem to anyone else that politicians, for the most part, might just as well live in another universe for all they appear to care or to risk for meaningful change?

Could it be that damn few of ‘them’ actually want real ‘change’, preferring the considerable comfort in which far too many now appear to luxuriate?

Oh, right this is not about ‘character’ or ‘courage’ or even ‘honesty’ it is simply about playing the ‘game’ and covering one’s own assets …

Strategy? Democrats are too good to ‘mix it up’, to ‘take the fight’ to the other ’side’; they are above such things, and are always willing to, ever so politely, turn the other cheek.

I suppose it would be tedious of me to point out that it is precisely that ’strategy’ which has allowed and permitted, helped even (as in ‘total complicity’), ‘things’ to get to this ‘point’, and far be from me to suggest that ‘things’ ain’t toot sweet for the vast majority of folks, and the total ‘bill’ hasn’t yet even come ‘due’ (endless war, economic catastrophe ect.).

Fortunately, (or whatever) this is the best of all possible worlds, and our little vexations, in the long run, won’t matter a damn.

I say give ‘em heaven and if ‘they’ don’t like them apples, then give ‘em hell, Ian.

Great post! Keep them juices flowing!! Blood pressure up! Minds in gear … Full speed ahead! Pedal to the metal!

We have nothing to fear except more of the same! Just wish the dems weren’t so predictably lame …

Screw honor. I want an honest intelligent leader who is guided by his understanding of history and his respect for human rights.

Why aren’t generic democrats mocking the idea of the Global War on Terror daily?

Why do generic democrats scoff at the idea of accountability?

Why do generic democrats keep voting for expansion of presidential powers?

If these are core values of democrats, count me out.

We have nothing to fear except more of the same!

Hey, that would make a good campaign slogan.

You don’t become a beltway person without being a compromised self interested, bloated ego who is there mostly for their own “glory” and doing a few nice things for the unwashed masses (D’s) or their friends in the boards rooms (R’s). And then it’s off to a cushy job provided by some lobbyist.

Well put, as usual, Ian.

Because NO ONE IS QUESTIONING ALL THE BS NARRATIVES.

ALL pols buy them hook, line and sinker.

this is not about ‘character’ or ‘courage’ or even ‘honesty’ it is simply about playing the ‘game’ and covering one’s own assets …

that’s the way i see it.

and that that’s so, it means that if we continue to support dems regardless – then there will be no incentive for them to change.

*applause!!!!*

We need to support the right POLICIES and no pols are advances them. Dad but true… well very few and they are laughed at like Denis.

We have nothing to fear except more of the McSame!

mr fixit guy

I use a “mental ignore” list as well. Helps my sanity immensely. Highly recommended.

I am writing a little computer script to accomplish just that. Too bad it has come to this, but a very few are so intentionally vicious that I do not want this in my world. This has nothing to do with not wanting to see vexations discussion: I thrive on different opinions. And, as you probably know, we are trained in graduate schools to give sympathetic and accurate accounts of positions with which we vigorously disagree. A good discipline, that.

I have also advised one offending party that from here on out I do not know him and he does not know me; I will not read his posts and he will not read my comments; thereby peace between us will reign.

I do not take these decisions on a snap, but there comes a time….

Obama’s a centrist dem. I have high hopes that he’ll run a good Clintonian administration. Compared to McCain that’s rockin’, but far less than you or I would want.

He worse than centrist, he’s a bi partisan true believer.

Know-nothing. Loud. Inarticulate.

Um…. that would be me.

i ain’t changin’

The job is to take over the Dem party the same way the Rightnuts took over the Pubs. Which means being the people who set up the chairs, serve on the school board, and so on. It’s not as reliable, because in the Dem party power doesn’t come through seniority as much, but it’s a start. The other thing to do is figure out how to get voting blocks. When you can deliver votes, you have a voice. It’s something we need to get more serious about.

Punish people who err, which is what the Odd Bedfellows is all about, as well.

But it’s not an easy problem. I think this cycle may have a ways to go (Stirling is calling for at least 8 to 12 years before a real progressive or complete reactionary break.)

Still, Obama can still win. This is a warning post, not a “we’re dead” post.

You reckon the dems might need our ‘help’, selise, in effecting this ‘change’?

What ‘incentive’ doesn’t involve incalcuble pain for most everybody else?

I thinking that we’ve some chickens anxious to come home to roost, tain’t going to be pretty, but the political class are wusses and hard times will thin out their rank ranks, won’t be enough ’safe’ places in all the thinkie tanks.

‘Tis time the politicians EARNED our support, ‘cuz without us, they.are.nothing. Whatever they might otherwise think!

Time to remind ‘em: ‘They’ work for ‘us’, or else they can either find other endeavor or even go suck eggs, and good riddance.

;~D

We all have to take care of what we allow into our spheres. I agree.
Some people here call it
.
.
.
scroll. But, if you want to create a program for that, that’s cool too.
Don’t let a few people here affect your view of the community. I think most people enjoy a little bit of diversity in thought and opinion.
I do.
:)

Yeah, but you have a cute handle.
Hi beerfart. We haven’t chatted in a while.
How was the storm? Are you okay?

Really, Ian it’s much simpler. We need to have term limits and in one fell swoop all the profit and patronage and power is sucked out of politics.

No dynasties.

EVERY elective office is term limited. Problem solved. You don’t have to become a party boss because you get nothing for it.

This all will be moot as the economy completely crashes in the next few years.

Then it all changes…. but to what????

Hopefully Ian, Barack Obama will notice this post. It is fair warning.
He would be most-wise to heed it.

As to your ’solutions’, I am in total agreement.

Thanks, again Ian.

I love feisty Economists! And you is the bestest dismal scientist around, by my lights.

;~D

Two terms. Period. No pass Go. No collect $200. No Pension. No Permanent Health Care (’cept medicare for the old farts). No lobbying for at least 5 years.

Ya wanna be a public servant?

Let’s see whatcha got.

right on brother.

Serve and be gone.

Night all….

STRUGGLE

sláinte

would like some competent people in gov. that would be grand.

… but i gotta say that obama’s fixation on the war in afghanistan (and pakistan!) scares me.

We do occasionally get sanctioned for writing some comments. For example questioning the 911 “story” is considered out of bounds here and if you push it you get moderated and dressed down.

I don’t understand why politely expressed views, regardless of what they are, should be trounced as ad hominem attacks. Bad form.

Sander, my points would entail that certain people are not moderated enough, and for their vicious style, not their political views.

And you speak of politely expressed views. Sander, what I complain of are not by any stretch whatever politely expressed views, but an unwillingness to discuss on the merits of the case to hand, and only to attack the ionterlocutor. Such people are insecure and losers as well.And mean-spirited. These churls are acting out.

What ‘incentive’ doesn’t involve incalcuble pain for most everybody else?

this is what causes me the most angst.

because i don’t think i have the right to decide for someone else that they are going to be the ones to have to pay the price. don’t have any easy answers on this one.

Know-nothing. Loud. Inarticulate.

Um…. that would be me.

i ain’t changin’

You?! Beerfart, I wouldn’t change you for the world, man. I enjoy your style.

The problem with term limits is that it really does take time to learn the job and get your hands on levers. Now that can be good – but it can also be bad. I’m not in favor of term limits, honestly. In the presidency in particular they’ve done more harm than good, imo.

Ian;

I fear your Canadian sensibilities are at play. OUR system does not respond to a loss of confidence.

And, just out of morbid curiosity, which Preznits would you have had remain longer in office?

I can think of more than several who should never have been allowed near such power.

;~(

Sorry, but “relaxed” politics is the last thing needed. You are about three steps from fascism, not having a leisurely debate. Some of the people on the other side would kill you, given the chance. You need to fight. So does Obama. Tooth and claw time.

Clinton. He would have crushed George Dubya. The only other president who was likely to get 3 terms, post FDR, was Reagan, but he was too senile by the end of term 2 and was more unpopular than people remember.

Sadly, I agree. I don’t think we can overstate the seriousness of our current situation. In the past we’ve managed to turn back the forces of tyranny before they took total control, but I fear they may be successful this time unless we pull out all the stops in this election — 2012 will most likely be too late.

And I still say we need to have a serious discussion as to what our “Plan B” is if Republicans manage to steal this election — we cannot allow it to stand.

Of course Plan A is to make sure Obama gets enough votes to overcome the few million that Republicans are certain to steal.

Thanks for mixing it up with the commenters, Ian.

This is really Obama’s election to lose (as David Broder said in the article attaturk was criticizing..but essentially true). I am afraid he is losing it too.

I too, did my Democratic Party thing, precinct captain, “dog catcher” (Justice of the Peace) etc, but the intelligence and best writers seem to be on the fringes just hoping for change and looking on with sadness at how ineffective the Democrats have become. Kerry and Gore were just so upper/upper class so we had hope for this young up and coming ordinary sort of guy. I think maybe his complex roots and “nuance” might be slowing him down a bit…but there’s still time. McCain does have a lot of problems for sure too. I am afraid that Democrats might just be sitting back knowing that the Republicans will ruin the economy so bad that in four years anybody but Republican could win.

And if a Democrat wins this one, he’ll get the blame for 20 years of Reagannomics have effectively done.

I like Obama’s advisors much more than McCain’s so let’s give him support at least for that. But the only thing the Dem’s want from me now is money….and that’s not enough.

Passion is what the Democrats need, more than money and the Middle Way that Clinton/Obama seem to be giving us is just not generating the Passion.