Ian! Zed

Thank you for the post, Ian.
So what do we do?

That’s only half the story: McCain does a lot better than “generic Republican”. Too much of the public buys this “maverick” / “war hero” stuff.

So what’s the solution?

The moral and political imbecility of FISA and other right wing pandering is that base voters are easier to get than the voters in the vanishing “center”.

And base voters don’t have really really high standards and expectations—except for fundamental things. Like the CONSTITUTION.

I think we should just create independent groups to bash McCain, since Obama won’t. I don’t necessarily think Obama is wrong to avoid it; attacks tarnish the attacker. But it needs to be done.

I think a lot of it is up to the campaign, honestly. They did go hard on the attack today and there are signs of shoring up the base (for example saying nice things about Single Payor, for once), but then Daschle and Feingold go on TV and undercut the attack message with “John McCain is an honorable man who’d be a good president” blithering.

So lets see.

Dems think John McCain would be a good president. So do Republicans. However, only Democrats think Obama would be a good president.

So why not go McCain if both parties agree he’s a man of honor who’d be a good president. Frankly Clark was deep-sixed by the campaign for far less egregious sins.

Such groups existed. Obama told the large donors to defund them. The large donors obeyed his wishes. Most of the strongest groups now do not have money to run large ad runs.

I recommend duct tape and plastic - lots of it.

;~(

or the infrastructure in place.

Ian,
I have mixed emotions on this. A few number to think about though. In ‘04, Bush and Kerry combined for roughly 122M total votes with both of them receiving more votes than anyone ever before.

In ‘08 in the Dem primary season, Obama and Clinton combined received roughly 36M votes, with both of them receiving more primary votes than anyone ever before.

If Obama is starting out down 28% of Clinton primary supporters, that is roughly 5/5.5M votes which still leaves him at 31M needing to pretty much double that to reach the Bush and/or Kerry levels from ‘04.

Do I wish Obama were tending to the liberal “base” of the Democratic Party? Absolutely. Do I suspect a lot of the delta between Obama’s polling and the “generic” Democrat polling is racial? Absolutely.

I also believe that we will need to fight TradMed as well as the Republican Slime Machine.

Nevertheless, I also believe that Obama IS a product of the Chicago Democratic Party machine and DOES know how to fight and win. McCain is hanging on by his fingernails when Obama has been on vacation for 2 weeks. Next week with the convention will go a long way (IMNSVHO) to drowning out a lot of the noise against Obama.

Of course, as always, I may also be a total freakin’ idiot.

So in theory, if one could pressure Feingold and Daschle to stop posting “Vote McCain” signs on their lawns, that might help?

The numbers to watch will be about a week after both conventions are done. Both candidates should get a bump, I wouldn’t take it too serious, unless one or the other can hold onto it.

Only MoveOn asked my opinion about that.. and at the time I replied I was adamantly opposed.

It sure wouldn’t hurt. And Daschle is Obama’s main man. He should know better.

Of course, as always, I may also be am not a total freakin’ idiot.

fixed for ya

This election may, as it already has in many ways, turn history on its head, with down-ticket races being the coattails for the top of the ticket…

I’m not about to second-guess Obama. He’s caught me off-guard for the past four years, and I’ve been a political nerd for almost sixty years.

This is what running to the center before you’ve secured your base gets you.

Ian, I have to respectfully disagree. The Clintons did everything they could to compare HRC favorably with McSame. Is anyone surprised that a hunk of her supporters would turn against their own party when she didn’t get the nomination?

Nevertheless, I also believe that Obama IS a product of the Chicago Democratic Party machine and DOES know how to fight and win.

If he’s keeping his powder dry it had better be damned potent powder and he’d better bring it out soon.

I’ve seen the rope-a-dope analysis but that’s little comfort.

i don’t think you’re ever an idiot-freakin’ or otherwise…

—–

fly-by

i think they’re too much spaghetti (issues and events) flyin’ at the wall (candidates)to see which ones are gonna stick just yet…..

agendas are gonna be addressed and set at the conventions, after that, we’ll see what the polls say….and that is a different kind of strategy, how to send out a cohesive message over an entire week involving many different people…and the vp pick.

hopefully someone has a plan on how obama can come out of it not covered in noodles.

we need some teflon…and a can of stick-em…

bbl.

The Clintons did everything they could to compare HRC favorably with McSame.
***
I didn’t see it that way.

edit 21

there’s not they’re

bbl

“their you go again”… :~)

“Generic Democrat” is a white guy. Just sayin’.

And the campaign hasn’t begun yet.

I have been a reader of FDL and a very occasional commenter since it’s inception. So much to learn, and so much snarky humour to make me laugh! However, the last few months, this site has become increasingly so negative - people whom I have always admired saying now they won’t vote - people only finding negative things to say about Obama and other Dems.

I am now finding I check in a few times a day as usual, but I can’t read the comments with the same feelings I used to have as someone who felt sympatico with the other pups, whether I agreed or not. Now, I read other sites instead, because the continual negativity here is against what I want to do - which is to help, not denigrate. Sorry - I miss what this site used to be.

I know you won’t be missing me - but I miss you all . . .

K.

yep.

you can sure prick ‘em.

lol

bbl. i need food.

28 was to the punster…

I know what you mean. Take a look at this site and see if you’d like to join our growing community. Alfred (the Spook) Kelgarries and I started it, and some of the commenters here (and some former ones) write guest posts. And we’ve located the site in a gorgeous beach house with amazing views and lots of relaxation.

Based on the evidence so far, I’d be a fool to bet against Obama’s sense of strategy.

A lot of folks have seen and commented on the negativity, but it’s helpful for everyone to be part of the solution. That includes you!
Pop in and say something uplifting if you think that’s what we need. Right?

I don’t see how he can win losing that much of the base. Running to the right isn’t going to get them back and even the evangelicals he’s been kissing up to are moving against him (though he’s still doing better with them than Kerry.)

And look at the personal qualities list. Just awful. Everyone needs to stop saying “John McCain is honorable”. Everyone. The candidate on down. You don’t have to say “he’s dishonorable” (though you should) but stop praising him.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, we need to make like Republicans and attack our opponents’ strength.

They think re-heating the Cold War is going to be a winning strategy, we need to attack hard to point out what an incompetent dolt McCain is. If they can make Bush seem like more of a War Hero than John Kerry, then we ought to be able to make a bat-shit crazy hothead look like a bat-shit crazy hothead.

I would hope that’s not overly ambitious for us.

And in reality Barack Obama would be SO much better at handling touchy diplomatic situations than anyone the Republicans could trot out.

More people are paying attention now than usually do in August. McCain and Obama are being defined now and such narratives are very hard to change.

If anyone over there finds “the solution”, you’ll let us know, I hope.

Ah yes, dry powder. I remember that.

Hi TexBetsy! Thank you for your response! I always have followed your contributions (and your journey with your health and the kids who have been part of your life)! I have added the site you recommended to my list.

I hope life is going to start taking care of you as well as you take care of everyone else!

Best wishes,
K.

Obi seemed to inspire support when we was campaigning in the primary and since then it seems like he’s hanging out instead of taking the fight to McCain.

What we do hear is more and more of his movement to the right which is not inspiring the people who saw him as representing change, whether right or wrong… and that meant to them, I assume not more of the centrist blue dog nonsense. The folks wanted someone who really advocating for them and he seems to be cozying up to the same crowd of Beltway “advisers” and corporate shills.

It’s becoming more like voting for the lesser of two evils. One very evil and the other one the same old same old pol crap.

McCain has to be exposed for the jerk he is. And that SHOULD be easy, because he has so many weaknesses. WHy he gets a pass is beyond me.

ATTTTTTTTTTTTAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKK

if we lose this election I will then knowa as a fact, we deserve the fascist state we asked for when we fielded this candidate

you can sure prick ‘em.

speaking of which…

This post wasn’t an attack on Obama’s personal qualities. Cheerleading a failing strategy does no one any good and blind optimism is… unwise. I really, simply, cannot write “everything’s going great” posts when I see strong evidence to the contrary. And Americablog is a blog that is so pro-Obama they destroyed their own commenting community for him - and that’s where the poll analysis I linked to comes from - his strongest partisans in the blogosphere.

But maybe I should just shut up and let the good ship Obama sail merrily on, everyone cheering as it takes on water.

Except, of course, that I want Obama to win.

In any case, I wish you all the best wherever you wind up

His religion pitch was enough to make me vomit.

Can’t pols simply say religion has nothing to do with being president. Nothing NADA not an issue. We don’t care if he has faith or doesn’t and it’s NO ONE’S business.

We’re in for the long haul. So it’s good to sit back and enjoy beautiful moments and community between bursts of fighting back and getting incensed.

Ad responses I’d love to see Obama doing.

Obama in shirtsleeves behind a desk
“Today, lets analyze at the newest McCain campaign ad. We will look at how it works as political propaganda and explain the messages hidden inside, whether it is factually truthful, what the ad is concealing, and grade it for effectiveness.”

Then in a 2-3 minute Youtube take down the curtain of propaganda, like the shows explaining how magic tricks work.If Obama is a new politician, he won’t be using them. Might as well expose the manipulative techniques before they can be deployed against him and immunize the electorate.

We should acknowledge that the entire Republican/conservative forces, all of talk radiao and a very complicit tv media have been trained on Obama for months now, not on the Democratic Party. Why would we not expect obama to be down?

Each of the individual Republicans have to fight their own battles against their Dem counterparts, but the party, the pundits and the media are firing every day at Obama. And Dems are not ahead because the public thinks they’ve done a wonderful job; they’re ahead because the hatred of Bush has hurt the Republican brand. Hence, McCain, with the media’s help, is running as “the original maverick” a campaign to escape the Bush hatred. so McCain runs way ahead of the Republican generic. No surprise there.

The question is, could any other Democrat Presidential candidate have withstood that and still be ahead? Let alone as far ahead as the “generic” Dem (which does not exist) is ahead of the generic Repug (which doesn’t exist).

We want obama to hit McCain much harder; perhaps he will. But i think it’s a mistake to claim, given all of this, that the central problem — the closeness of this race — is because Obama is a seriously flawed candidate? Compared to which of the candidates we’ve had in the last 30 years? Kerry? Dukakis?

THANK YOU!!! (sorry for the shout)
Life is still stabbing at the base of my spine this week, but hoping for improvement soon.

yep, that’s what i was playin’ off of, but i was starvin’, so didn’t take the time for the link….thanks for the link so everybody ‘got it’…heh….

bbl

nedra prickler?

And now comes a milquetoast VP choice. Great move OBI… who is going to cheer for that one?

Long haul is good.
And, I appreciate those moments as well.
But, you will share any solutions, right?

For a smart guy, Obama is in dire need of wisdom. That does not come out of books; you can’t learn it. All the experience in the world will not make McShame a better President, but it certainly seems to be making him a better campaigner. McBush is taking advantage of every trick in the trade; Obama’s problem is that he is not.

Nice.

Yes! Spot on.

And,
Of course Demi.

This is not a post about Barack’s personal characteristics. I don’t mention them AT ALL.

It is a post about Obama’s strategy.

However, if you want to talk Obama’s personal qualities, here’s the problem - Americans are coming to see McCain as having better qualities than Obama. If that’s what they think, well, Obama’s going to lose.

When Daschle and Feingold get on TV and say McCain’s a man of honor and would be a good president; when Clark gets deep-sixed for attacking McCain’s greatest strenght head on; when Obama praises McCain himself. Well, this is a problem. And it’s a strategy problem - it comes from the top.

With the economy in a a depression it’s hard to imagine a republican being returned to ANY office.

If they are it is indication of how stupid and uninformed those who vote are.

Are you better off than you were 8 yrs ago? POUND IT HARD.

I kinda like a prez who knows that HE (or she) is not God. Beyond that, none of my business.

Thanks, demi, for your invitation to contribute. I just feel overwhelmed by the brilliant people who have been commenters here for so long, that it would be inappropriate for me to ‘pop in’ with my opinions, especially since the majority of comments here no longer align with my thoughts. I am just not up to a fight here. I prefer to take my energies to do some activism in my state and local campaigns, and whatever I can do to help Obama get elected.
Thanks again.
K

When you fight you don’t praise the other guy. This is a “war” of sorts and you take the gloves off and attack at every opening and even CREATE OPENINGS to attack.

The party needs some discipline and Feingold and Daschle need to be taken to the woodshed and spanked. If they won’t attack then then need to shuddup.

Democrats need to say that McCain is D A N G E R O U S as president. Not that he would be a good president, or that he’s better than other GOPs on climate change, or that he’s an honorable man, or that they respect his service to his country. They need to say, over and over and over, that electing him president is D A N G E R O U S.

It is the best message, because everything McCain says and does feeds into it: Georgia, the draft, confusing Sunni and Shia, bomb bomb bomb Iran, everything. It has the added virtue of being true.

Not everyone here brilliant. I am one of the non brilliant ones and I chime in whenever I want. You should too.

and we have yet to see the worst of what they plan to do. Thusfar the rethugs have been operating just as should have been anticipated. No really big surprises. So the question is with all the “talent” the dems have and all of the times we have seen this before, why has there not been a better response?

oh and Scarecrow, YGM.

And while they are at it, OBI should declare that he wants JoeLie tossed out of the party NOW.

Ian,

Never did I say anything about ‘cheerleading’ - nor did I suggest such a thing. Positive doesn’t mean cheerleading. Negative to me is only seeing the bad things and projecting failure if Obama doesn’t do what we say he should. Somehow, I still think he is smart and knows what he is doing - and needs a little faith in him from his supporters.

Where I ‘end up’? What does that mean?

What SanderO said

Ask anyone

Really

;~P

The people who get to push the buttons up there in the campaign are not the right ones obviously. They don’t know how to wage a campaign war… perhaps learning on the job???

Actually I see it (your post) adressing many of the same concerns kathleen expresses in a roundabout way.

I wouldn’t have a clue how to represent Obama’s issues right now.. If i were knocking on doors for him. We need ten very simple points of light… rock hard kitchen table issues which grass rooters know he both stands for and which separates him completely from McBush.

whatever I can do to help Obama get elected.

That certainly seems to align with my thoughts! If you have thoughts and ideas, please share them.

What Hillary said to promote McSame also didn’t help much. Thank you so much, Hillary! So you’ve changed your tune now, but it’s too late! If Obama or anyone else did that to you or your husband, would you tolerate it? Do either of you have any really good master strokes to undo the damages?

Attack!!! And sounds like a great focus for your energies.

This is a good point.

Ian, if you want to make that point, go to the campaign and read them the riot act on their strategy.

Posting this thing, while it may have truth to it is not helping getting more support, but rather making people feel despondent and helpless.

Best of luck with everything you do.
Do what works and feels right for you.

Can’t pols simply say religion has nothing to do with being president. Nothing NADA not an issue. We don’t care if he has faith or doesn’t and it’s NO ONE’S business

Similar to accepted practice in nearly every other developed nation? Better if they could. Unfortunately, in this country while a politician doesn’t have to be a bible thumper, some concession to the legitimacy of religion is required.

Obama at least comes across as sincere. In ‘04, Dean should have kept his mouth shut. Asked to name his favorite book in the New Testament, “The part about Job.” Informed Job was in the Old Testament, “Uh, any of the Gospels.”

I feel the spirit of tRex in da house

Antone else?

yea… what are his 10 points to change direction?

anyone?????

IMO, McCain is going to receive 40% of the vote anyway and he will receive an additional 3 or 4% because Obama is black. It seems to be the unspoken demographic but it is there. A named democratic has two opponents, the MSM and the republican and that is an issue that we need not forget. Do I think that Obama should laugh off McCain’s attack by saying he forgets what he says from one day to the next, hell, yes… But let’s be honest and admit that a NAMED democratic candidate has to run against the MSM also.

One of his points should be…

We support religious freedom and that includes keeping it out of politics and government. I will answer no questions about my religious practices or beliefs.

heck, I would jump with joy if he would lay 5 on the table forus.

New Pro-Obama book coming out soon …

Digg It :

http://digg.com/2008_us_electi.....lsea_Green

Pre-order at Amazon at Reduced Price …

The personal attacks sure don’t seem to be hurting McLame much! He attacks Obama’s patriotism, then says he’s just attacking his judgment and everybody says oh, okay, and leaves it at that. No harm, no foul. Nice!

Oh no. Facts are facts.
We each have the free will to react in whichever fashion we want.
If someone doesn’t want to hear bad news, well, then they shouldn’t follow politics. There’s always the bowling team.

It sounded like you were saying you didn’t enjoy it here anymore and wouldn’t be around.

I have very little faith in most leaders. Probably a personal failing.

McCain = Four More Years of Bush

Rinse and repeat. How can anyone vote for that?

McCain is the kind of man who believes it’s okay to insinuate his opponent is unpatriotic, and then the lie about having said it.

Obama is the kind of man who believe it’s not okay to do those things.

But they way this gets echoed via the wurlitzer and a complicit media, it comes out: (1) McCain is patriotic, but Obama is not.

What should happen is the public decides, (2) “McCain is not an honorable man, but Obama is.”

Those are the contrasting messages. For every post I write with message 2, there are a thousand reports to millions more listeners with message 1. Guess what? Message 1 is winning.

How do we solve this? We need more of us pounding message 2 and shaming the media for complicity in message 1.

Failing that, we lose, but it’s partly our fault, not just his. Shouting at the captain is pointless. Better to Pick up an oar and start rowing.

Oh! Do I know where you are coming from! FDL is a dog-eat-dog scene now on the comments. The site content improves amazingly, whilst the commenting declines apace. And here it is open season by rubes against the “intellekshuls”. I am fed up. This is not the FDL I have known all these years, and I question the time and energy I have devoted recently to commenting.

One of their darlings has just returned after a highly choreographed and melodramatic hiatus, and what is his first act? To direct foul invective against me, complete with ad hominem attacks, and this despite he does not know me at all. There is a subset of Firedoggies who have extreme issues with anger management and impulsivity. Their antics tend to vitiate the wonderful efforts of Jane, Christy, et al.

Ian, I hope that you take the time to read my comments at 76 because it’s important to realize that once a candidate is named, MSM goes full steam ahead.

You almost sound like a deejay… ‘cept is “forya”

;~P

Agree, and that campaign reenforced that line today. I’ve echoed it the last two or three posts, because as you say, “it has the added advantage of being true.”

It does start seeming like a self-fulfilling prophecy after a while, doesn’t it? If you don’t read Al Giordano yet, you’d probably really like it there (of course, don’t leave here either since there’s such a wide variety of opinion, which makes it great!). His whole mission has been ending the rampant “chicken little-ism” that’s taking hold in a lot of Liberal circles.
http://narcosphere.narconews.c.....n-underdog

This last Electoral Vote map that now has McInsane ahead makes some pretty big assumptions. It has McInsane winning FL, OH, and VA. Current collection of polls has all three of those at a dead heat factoring margin of error. If Obama wins just one of those, he wins the election, even giving them all their other questionable assumptions. EV’s are all that matters after all, just like superdelegates in primary season. Remember how the Obama campaign snuck up on everyone with their strategy? Next thing you knew, he had an insurmountable lead. Smart, smart team and strategy.

Plus, Obama just outraised McInsane by almost double last month, and the DNC outraised the RNC. Can you imagine this happening in recent Prez elections at this point?!? And McInsane is switching to the $80 million TOTAL in public funding next month which is all he’ll have for the rest of the campaign. Obama might raise that in one month.

Oh, and for a fun exercise about the ability of polls to predict election outcomes, it’s funny to check the days leading up to the Iowa caucuses. Almost all had Hillary winning, some by a lot. She came in third. Why is that? Ground game, and Obama has and continues to build a ground game that’s never been seen before. We’re in great shape.
http://tpmelectioncentral.talk.....r/2008/01/
(scroll down to Jan 1-3)

Sure, polls can give a sense for trends, but at this early stage in the game this recent shift is going to be a positive. After a lull and re-grouping by Obama and supporters, this should get people fired up again back to Iowa and Super Tues standards. Look out. So, overall we have some great numbers in our favor, and the defeatists and sour grapes Clinton supporters weren’t going to be doing much volunteering anyway, so I’m personally happy to not have them killing my buzz. More and Better!

Saturday night McCain went on stage and lied about being in a room and not being able to hear. Today Cindy McCain admitted not meeting Mother Teresa when she adopted her children and what have we heard on the media. John McCain calls Obama testy.

Not everyone here brilliant. I am one of the non brilliant ones and I chime in whenever I want. You should too.

Too modest, SanderO. I seek out your comments, both for their content and for the modes of their expressions. There is most definitely a thread of know-nothing anti-intellectualism amongst a sub-set of FDL commenters, and they are both loud and inarticulate.

What are you talking about?

Here’s how it’s done. Granted it’s fiction—the West Wing—but pay attention.

What are you talking about?

Obama is wise to not make waves until after the conventions. McCain is not the fave of all Rs.

After McC gets his party’s nomination, then hit him with all we’ve got.
A full expose that will rip him and his creds to shreds.

I think that’s what the Obama camp is waiting for. The MSM will respond … how? It could be fun!!

One thing about a community of commenters — and this has always been a community — is that you will get all sorts, some calm, some less so, some firebrands, some incredibly shy/sensitive. The commenting rules were always meant to allow all to be here, but to keep those most animated from inadvertently hurting those less so.

For those of us who can be animated (or opinionated), it is a hard rule to follow, sometimes, but essential. The community always needs those who have concerns such as yours to be willing to speak up, to protect the community, and not become discouraged by its diversity of emotions. Hang in there.

I resemble that remark

I’m leaving

I am currently living in MN. Want to do lunch or coffee and a good chat? Please see my other comments downthread in response to your post. I can take time out to meet intelligent, sympathetic people who are part of my own concerns (not necessarily limited to those who agree with me).

pop in, pop off, pop out

works for me!

I tend to be more radical and anti capitalist which is where I think many of our problems lie.

It’s not politics which is killing us but capitalism which is the modus operandi of the corporations who control our government and make it’s policies… the MIC, big OIL, the insurance industry and of course the thieves of Wall street and so forth.

My beef with FDL is that they rarely drill down and attack capitalism and it’s weakness and the fact that out problems stem from exploitation and the belief that “america is about wealth creation”.

*In his very best Peter Sellers*

“Yoor pup oht lahghter ess reefooseeng to pup oht”.

I’m still commenting about Ian’s post, unfortunately, by myself. You are definitely right about the community thing, though. Raven has reappeared in the afternoon the last few days and he has been sorely missed. Whether one agrees with his sentiments or not they have always been expressed with zest and honesty.

I like that bit. Why don’t REAL pols say it?????????

very good question.

I am inclined to agree with you. We all have so much emotion invested in the outcome of this election that we examine every tidbit of info under a microscope in an effort to discern the future. I’ve seen too many Democratic candidates self destruct to say that I am confident but I remain cautiously optimistic.

Warning the captain that his course isn’t working and leads to disaster isn’t kibitzing.