So, Jane, who else do you have in mind?

Who is on the Netroots wish list for VP. What are we looking for in a VP?
I think its not Biden but who do we want and why?

As my neighbor pointed out to me, just yesterday,
Biden assures us the state of Delaware.

He does suffer occasionally from “hoof put in mouth” disease,re: his comment about Indian-Americans & 7-11 type stores, etc. But he does bring some foreign policy experience…..would prefer him over Bayh.

what happened to the last post?

good speech by BO this a.m. here in icky Orlando.

LOL…..good one!

Jane:
Did you see this post from Jack & Jill politics?

http://www.jackandjillpolitics…..nna-be-vp/

Not very good for Biden, and I have to think Obama knows about it.

If Obama keeps refusing to admit that the Surge is working, he’s doomed (regardless of VP pick). Obama really needs to get with the program and admit that the Surge is indeed working: The gasoline prices surged, food prices surged, unemployment surged, inflation surged, AlQaeda and Iran are surging, Russia is surging in Georgia, DOJ employees breaking the law are surging, and (last, but not least) oil company profits are surging!

Obama, I say pick a VP and bring up the surge!

Then there’s the problem that Biden has a history of saying really stupid stuff. Which could turn out to be a plus I suppose, if he draws the flies off Obama.

He may have pissed off voters of Indian ancestry with his Dunkin Donuts quote.

I like Biden. But from what I’ve seen, he impresses me as not really wanting to be VP. Kinda like, he’ll do it if he has to. I like him but I think there are better picks. As for saying stooppid stuff… don’t know if he could muzzle himself for a few months. If he’s picked, i hope not.

Mornin’ Jane.

Sadly, lots of possible picks are flawed. My biggest problem with Biden is the bankruptcy bill – no Democrat should have ever voted for that vile piece of legislation.

obama, if he chooses from the pack of Biden,Bayh, Sibelius and Kaine will be following his pattern of doing exactly the wrong thing to regain the support of the base that got him the nomination. He seems to be pandering to the DLC and the corporate interests rather than do what the netroots and the vast majority of his donors wished. He has, since gaining the nomination, turned from a vibrant agent of change to milquetoast. He is not only losing (has lost?) the support of progressives but has lost any chance of keeping the student body active, the support of disenfranchised Democrats that are now independents and he is now crashing and burning in the midwest with his embrace of NAFTA and “free” trade.

There will be, I predict, the largest number of voters in history voting for candidates other than the two pablum pushers given us by corporate america.

I should clarify that AUMF and the Patriot act are bad, but other than Russ Feingold (and why not russ Feingold?) there aren’t too many Dems who are pure on that count…

Georgia and Foreign policy is on everyone’s mind now Obama is weak on that subject and the Bill Richardson has foreign policy experience in spades.
Plus Richardson would put make a lot of Western States more competitive forcing McCain to spend money defending his base.
Richardson giving a foreign policy speech on Georgia would make McCain, Bush, Condi and the Neocons all look like Morons in comparison.
Which granted is easy to do.
Does anyone else have an alternative to Biden?

the Dunkin’ Donuts thing is no big deal for me. Or most people, I think.

I just wanted to say Thanks, Jane for all you do for our country. In the proud tradition of Benjamin Franklin, you don’t have to wear a uniform to serve your country.

who should he pick? I’ve liked Richardson for months now.

Me too regarding Bayh. I’d almost rather have anyone than Bayh, Tim Kane, Senator Reed, etc. I really like Chris Dodd, but they tell me that would put one additional Rethug in the Senate and we can’t afford that. I also like Howard Dean, but I don’t think people would think he was any more acceptable than Biden. Basically, at this point, and despite is foibles, I like Biden. Since I’m having too hard a time linking outside of FDL, I’ll just say, ultimately and all things considered, so does Josh Marshall (look his article from yesterday up at TPM) so I feel I’m in good company.

Oh really? Biden has a history of racially insensitive and offensive remarks. Google “Biden + Racism” and you get over 440,000 results documenting his racist bloopers, if you will – oops!

http://www.jackandjillpolitics…..nna-be-vp/

Delaware, he noted, was a “slave state that fought beside the North. That’s only because we couldn’t figure out how to get to the South. There were a couple of states in the way.”

The crowd loved it.

http://www.jackandjillpolitics…..nna-be-vp/

Nope Biden is not getting the Nod.

All of these candidates are flawed, but I have to say, Biden is the best of the lot. I will never forgive him for that bankruptcy bill, but the man knows his foreign policy, and I can’t see any of the morons that McCain is considering out debating him. And, I happen to agree that a “hoof in the mouth” moment to deflect attention from Obama is not necessarily a bad thing.

I have a question about that speech if it’s the same one I heard on CNN. Was it in front of the same veterans group that McSame was speechifying in front of when you heard all that applause? If so, why were they so sanguine with Obama when he was pointing out things that were to the benefit of Vets? I understand that they may be inclined to give one of their own a preference and also the benefit of the doubt, and they were polite and gave some applause, but it seemed very unbalanced in favor of McBush.

Come to think of it, Biden may have pissed off black voters as well. Biden sometimes reminds me of this type of guy who swaggers and staggers around some “exclusive” country club, consuming waay too many drinks, making not very funny ethnic jokes, feeling superior, while breathing alcohol fumes in women’s ears etc.
When Biden’s “on”, he’s “on”. When he’s off, he’s really off.

I like Richardson and General Wesley Clark except Obama has already cut the general off at the knees.

It was Edwards Richardson ticket for me from the get go. I like Richardson’s vast experience and, despite the idiot rumours of sexual shenninagans (or, as selise was insisting yesterday, the rumours of demeaning women which are as yet unsubstantiated) put out by his detractors I still think that he is head and shoulders above the VP pack and the presumptive nominee.

I agree. Richardson is a better choice, even though he has issues as well, as I understand it.

Jane:
Did you see this post from Jack & Jill politics?

http://www.jackandjillpolitics…..nna-be-vp/

Not very good for Biden, and I have to think Obama knows about it.

that you might put in the negatives column

I think I like Wes Clark better as well.

I’ve never been much impressed by Richardson. Aside from the sexist rumors Jane mentioned yesterday, he has always appeared indecisive and bungling to me. Tim Russert really cut him to ribbons on MTP when he was still a candidate, basically pointing out failures on every position Richardson had held, and he had no effective answers. At the time he was Sec. of Energy, it seemed to me he over-reacted on the Los Alamos Chinese spying incident and virtually convicted the guy before he was even accused.

Oh no? Think again, about other people.

*sigh*

I’m open to Senator Feingold, Dennis Kucinich I like them but honestly don’t think I know enough to make the same case for them that I made for Richardson.
Who do we want as VP?

I am still a tinfoil hat Edwards supporter. Er, so I wonder, wonder if Edwards is being Gary Hart-ed, but by who?

Good points! I can hear him giving a speech: “Some people have criticized me for not admitting the surge is working, so I am doing that now. The gasoline prices surged, food prices surged, unemployment surged, inflation surged, AlQaeda and Iran are surging, Russia is surging in Georgia, DOJ employees breaking the law are surging, and (last, but not least) oil company profits are surging! All of these surges are working only too well! But the surge in Iraq still has not produced the political reconciliation it was touted to do. So I do not support these surges!” Good one, DefendOurConstitution!

I don’t know why Richardson is “off the table” if indeed he is. He is a Governor (executive experience), has high-level national policy creds with a cabinet position and is progressive and knows “hola” from shinola.

Biden, as Jeralyn quite correctly pointed out the other day could be a potential deal-breaker for many progressives, because of his rather draconian “law ‘n’ order” bullshit views. Not to mention he’s still the Senator from MBNA who almost single-handedly managed to keep that craptastic piece of legislation on bankruptcy alive for a dozen or so years.

Wes Clark? Yup, until Obama tossed him under the bus for correctly pointing out that getting shot down is not leadership, and certainly not executive-level military leadership experience.

Just my 2¢ …

Kristol floats Musharraf as Obama’s VP

Didn’t the FBI handle that investigation?
As far as the rumors Obama has a vetting process if they are true then he is out, or I hope he is out. But who do you want and why we need names people if we are going to debate.

NOW can we get him into that padded room

I like Richardson a lot, but when he couldn’t even answer a simple question from Melissa Ethridge, even as she tried to give him the answers, that put him way behind on my list. The question was (as I paraphrase) “Do you think gay people are born or made?” Ultimately when he stumbled around with the question, she tried to make it easier for him by drawing a diagram, “Do you think I was born gay, or did I wake up somewhere around 12 years old and decide to live a homosexual lifestyle, regardless of what problems that brought me?”

Kristol is an example of what happens to the victims of schoolyard bullies when grown up.

Kristol floats Musharraf as Obama’s VP

I would have thought he would suggest Osama bin Laden for an Obama/Osama ticket.

twolf at 36 reply isn’t working

Weekly Standard editor Bill Kristol — who claims to know how to pick a VP — said his “sources” tell him “it’s down to three names — Governor Kaine of Virginia, Senator Biden of Delaware, Governor Kathleen Sebelius of Kansas.”

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/…..obamas-vp/

Just what Democratic sources could the editor of the Weekly Standard have besides Blue Dogs that is?

What I remember are Richardson’s public announcements regarding the scientist a Los Alamos while he was still working.

My own preference is for whoever would be most likely to result in a winning ticket. I don’t know who that is, but assume the Obama campaign knows their best bet. Aside from Richardson, Bayh seems so boring that it’s hard for me to imagine that he could even help carry Indiana. As far as progressive causes, I don’t see much to choose among the candidates and it wouldn’t matter any way if they can’t beat McCain.

Wouldn’t it be nice if Obama followed Bushes 2000 lead and pick Carolyn Kennedy for his VP

Yup, the Bankruptcy Bill alone disqualifies Biden IMO.

Ok see forget the rumors that is a good point and it does hurt his case.

He’s been ironically listed as Joseph Biden (MBNA). From wiki:

MBNA was one of the prime movers in lobbying for the passage of the Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005, which took 11 years and millions of dollars spent on lobbying before the act was finally passed when 15 Democrats (all of whom had received campaign contributions from MBNA, notably Joseph R. Biden, Jr. (D-DE) $147,700) joined with their Republican colleagues to sign it into law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBNA

Good morning all.

Well at least Biden considers Obama to be, how did he put it?, ‘articulate’.

After reading Biden’s response to his trip to Georgia, where he says that he wants to give the Georgian people a billion dollars, and virtually implied that, if we all not all Georgians now, then at least we must help them against bad old bears, one wonders just how much ‘mongering’ ole Joe might be capable of.

Biden is ’safe’, if sloppy, in his verbiage.

But one thing Biden isn’t, is ‘inspiring’.

But that’s Obama’s department, so Delaware Joe’s gray porridge persona is probably the perfect foil for Barack, especially as he continues to tack to the right.

Yep! Joe Biden is the perfect choice. (Ho hum, … and whoop-de-doo!)

This is a most ‘pragmatic’ choice for a most ‘pragmatic’, if increasingly less inspiring, President Barack Obama.

These are ‘pragmatic’ times. Let us dispence with our dreams and most of our hopes, they being most un-pragmatic …

Up with lesser weevils!

A grand future awaits us.

Remember: ANYTHING is better that Bu$h=Mc$ame!!!

Ain’t that right?

Let us hope.

an epu regarding Swindle and Mccain’s story-

We don’t need to prove that McCain’s “cross in the sand” event didn’t happen, he needs to prove that it did himself. He said precious little about it not only in details but in how it was transformative. I believe that if some press or evangelical reps interviewed McCain again and took time to press him to expand in greater depth on the details and what it meant to him, he would expose himself as a fraud in this matter. If he lifted the story and used it as a ruse for his spirituality, his bullshit isn’t good enough to convincingly cover the huge gaps. That is all it would take, imo.

.

Biden = Banker.

That bankruptcy bill was timed perfectly to enslave the greatest number of Americans right at the top of the real estate bubble, with the full knowledge that it would burst. Greenspan blew that bubble up on purpose on behalf of the banksters, even going so far as to promote ARMs over fixed rate mortgages at the worst possible time. Biden’s bill coincided with that…and it was not by accident.

The banksters aren’t the solution, they are the problem.

Is it really Biden?

He’s just so… …Bideny

Richardson has good credentials, but he has zero charisma as a campaigner. Cheney has no charisma, so it may not be a deal breaker, but gosh, it would be great to have someone who can inspire people out there working for the ticket.

No one is talking about Hillary. But she is/has been one great campaigner. And she is smart.

Obama, as I recall, stuck up for Biden on that front.

I’m not sure he cares.

The details of the story don’t got me convinced now.

Here’s a very big problem with Biden. He has been in the Senate a long time. I believe I read he was 29 years old when he was first elected. That is a very long voting record. The Republican attack pit bulls will have a field day skewing his voting record to the point that most uninformed voters will be befuddled on just where the guy stands on issues. Biden is too corporate leaning for me and wishy washy on domestic tax issues for the middle class. If foreign afairs is his strong suit when did that ever work out for the best. VP candidate Muskie was foreign affairs expert… Dems lost. VP Mondale was foreign affairs savvy they lost reelection bid. Al Gore was a younger VP choice and not seen as a foreign affairs Senator. He won two terms. We need an Al Gore type VP. Who would that be?

I’m going to say something really stupid. I don’t think he’s going to pick anyone on the MSM’s list. I think it’s a sideshow that’s been manufactured by his team. Typical Washington baloney that everyone expects.

I don’t really have any great ideas about who it might be. I never believed the Gore talk, but I’m not so sure now.

It seems like every potential VP with experience has had time to do and say some pretty stupid things, maybe not game-enders but painful to contemplate. The other choices have shorter resumes, which doesn’t mean they aren’t capable of gaffes and policy blunders, they just haven’t had as much time to make them.

Well if McCain has a sense of humor Biden’s gaffes will be played 24/7 on African American radio. I still think we could win but Obama would be stuck playing defense.

Biden: bloviator, connections to credit card industry, wasted everyone’s time in his questioning of Alito (IIRC he discussed what colleges their kids went to), I remember him on Charlie Rose well before anyone was talking about a surge saying that we should send many more troops to Iraq even though such troops did not exist, he’s Establishment on foreign affairs. There was a plagiarism scandal from years ago. These are the negatives that I know about.

I do think of Hillary. And as a Dodd>Edwards>Clinton former supporter, I can’t say I don’t have fantasies about that one.

I don’t think thats dumb at all none of the MSM VP picks really move me.

One big strike against Biden is that he has been in Washington forever. How could Obama claim he wants to transform Washington with Biden on the ticket? That is part of the reason I suspect Obama might nominate a current or former governor.

Somebody from outside the political sphere would be wonderful. An academic? an economist? a scientist? or someone that is proficient in dealing with crises, economics, management, negotiation….. how about a housewife, homemaker or whatever the “correct” term is these days,

As someone who’s listened to black radio a lot(the only tolerable stations after 9/11), I can see various hosts having a great laugh at what seems like the “great white disastor” that is Biden. (Nixon tapes provoked a lot of hilarity as well). As Hugh pointed out, the credit card ties and bankruptcy bill seem all the more serious, since Dems are supposed to fix these problems that the repukes created. I mean that’s our narrative, right? Too much Biden, could allow Repukes to poke holes in htat narrative.

I thought it was accepted, even by him, that Gary Hart did what he did to himself! Same goes for Edwards. It shows a certain cockiness, a disdain for the intelligence of the electorate, and poor moral character to cheat on your wife as she’s fighting cancer, even if she’s in remission. Furthermore, he did not come clean to her until she confronted him about it. Then, she didn’t go public with what she knew; he did because he was backed into a corner and lying was no longer viable. I know, I know, Clinton did it too, as have other Presidents. Eleanor Roosevelt reportedly lived separately from Franklin, in a separate house, I heard. It didn’t affect the way they governed. But thinking back, there really is something smarmy about John Edwards taking such an air or superiority when he knew what he was doing on the side. Must of been a hell of a rush to him to be playing with fire. He thought he was invincible; found out differently. Shame, but such is life. I think he’s destroyed himself in politics, because who would ever believe him again? I’m sure he’ll find something else productive to do, so I don’t cry for him or worry about him. I worry about his wife and family more.

1,737 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen Hamsher and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

Thanx fer the mornin’ briefin’…I look forward ta yer mornin’ posts ‘cuz ya tell me where ta direct my fire for the day…but as fer Biden I’m REALLY concerned ‘cuz he reminds me of LBJ without bringin’ a state with ‘im and he doesn’t do ANYthin’ ta cover Obama’s gluteus maximus (so ta speak). Also, Biden is THE congressional mouthpiece for the credit and mortgage bankin’ folks…one of the necessary actions of any economic reconstruction package in the first 100 days hasta be to undo the horrific bankruptcy law and put teeth back into the security and exchange and anti-trust laws, Biden as VP would be sendin’ a signal to the plutocrats that their larceny will go unpunished and uncorrected.

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THE WAR IS HOME NOW!!

from 7/27 :

Obama listed the qualities he’ll be looking for: “I’m going to want somebody with integrity. I’m going to want somebody with independence — who’s willing to tell me where he thinks, or she thinks, I’m wrong. And I’m going to want somebody who shares a vision of the country: where we need to go — that we’ve got to fundamentally change not only our policies, but how politics work, how business is done in Washington.” In an interview taped in London for NBC’s “Meet the Press,” Tom Brokaw asked Obama about the “old rules” of picking a ticket mate based on electoral strength in some region, and “someone who is stronger in some policy area than you are.” “I think the most important thing, from my perspective, is somebody who can help me govern,” Obama said. “I want somebody who I’m compatible with, who I can work with, who has a shared vision, who certainly complements me, in the sense that they provide a knowledge base or an area of expertise that can be useful. Because we’re going to have a lot of problems and a lot of work to do.” “I’m not interested in a vice president who I just send off to go to funerals,” he continued. “I want somebody who’s going to be able to roll up their sleeves and really do some work.”

reminded me of this:

I love Kathleen Sebelius. I think she is as talented a public official as there is right now. Integrity. Competence. She can work with all people of all walks of life, but I promised that I am not going to say anything about my vice president until I actually introduce my vice president.

posted at Huffpo on 7/1.

.

Yeah, deep down I keep hoping that he’ll pull a rabbit out of his hat that will cause us all to slap our foreheads and say, “Now why didn’t I think of that?”

I am sorry to say, it’s all very People magazine to me. The whole narrative, everything.

Adding some audacious hoping; wouldn’t a ‘rabbit’ be great, just about now?

ratfood, you’re a dreamer, but you’ve got good dreams …

;~)

Yeah, deep down I keep hoping that he’ll pull a rabbit out of his hat that will cause us all to slap our foreheads and say, “Now why didn’t I think of that?”

What if the rabbit is Chuck Schumer? *g*

Richardson.

Brings West into it.

Brings Hispanics.

Brings foreign policy gravitas (and do we need that!).

I can’t get too interested in the veep selection- or the conventions…I don’t think that either will make much difference. I’m ready for these two to get it on and show us what they’ve got. So far- not much!

It won’t be a female, unless it’s Hillary. There was a comment on HuffPo yesterday that stated someone from Obama’s camp had said the VP won’t be a female because it’d be insulting to Hillary.
Doesn’t Kaine hold somewhat anti-abortion views? Bayh is about as exciting as his last name. Biden is too close to the credit lobby (anyone who voted for the bankruptcy bill should be kicked out of the party IMO).
I’m at a loss. The choices are pretty poor IMO.

Ann in AZ:

“…I worry about his wife and family more.”

Many of us have been more concerned for and about Elizabeth and the kids than John from the beginnin’…but let’s not waste a lotta valuable energy tryin’ ta make some moral meaning outta this or that infidelity of a politician. National politics sucks the life outta politicians and their families, the unreal nature of life in the artificial bubble does not excuse such behavior but unless the politician runs on a platform of “family values” it doesn’t mean a tinker’s dam.

One of the other negatives that came out during the primaries was some exaggerations about a baseball career that were in his book

You mean the story he related about seeing a cross in the sand at first base?

To me, what you’re saying indicates Claire McCaskill. She’s been a very outspoken supporter and done very well defending his every position for quite a while. Yet she’s never listed as a VP candidate. Seems somewhat unlikely that two freshmen Senators would run together, and she doesn’t seem to have the credentials in foreign affairs to offer, but it would be a surprise.

Urgh, I believe I heard her in committee ask something like: When are we going to get Iraqis to pay for reconstruction (very rough paraphrase.)

Jane,

gonna out myself (again!) as one of your most eager but C students

why in bloody hell Biden ? Obama already has all the Bankers he needs, even more than Gore attracted in 2000. chrissakes, Rubin hasn’t put down his pom poms down in months – so this can’t be about attracting that particular contributor demographic

is this some kind of reassuring overture to the white geezer demo ?

still shaking my fuzzy head

why in bloody hell Biden ? Obama already has all the Bankers he needs

is this some kind of reassuring overture to the white geezer demo ?

Heh! Right on!

Now, now, consider the pagentry, the pathos, the surging hopes, the stinging invective etc., all those joyous elements of democracy at play.

Surely, rw, you would not deny ‘the people’ their cicus? Bread is already in short supply … reality will be weighing heavily upon us all, soon enough.

It won’t be a female, unless it’s Hillary. There was a comment on HuffPo yesterday that stated someone from Obama’s camp had said the VP won’t be a female because it’d be insulting to Hillary.

If that’s the reason, I wouldn’t put much stock in it.

A female VP like Sebelius – an experienced non-DC insider – who Obama truly likes, respects, trusts on a personal level would be great.

I think those concerned about Hillary would be able to recognize it.

Saw her and Gov Pawlenty squared off on TV yesterday she failed to respond to half of his crap

Safe to say if it was Schumer we would still slap our foreheads. On the other hand, if you’re really fond of man-boobs, he’s probably your candidate of choice.

The reality is, there is no “perfect” VP candidate, just as there is no perfect presidential candidate.

Whether it’s zipper problems, ties to the DLC, voting for execrable legislation such as the Bankruptcy Bill, AUMF, Patriot Act, etc, soporific speaking styles, too many insider ties or ties to big businesses, every candidate name floated by TradMed, Bloggers, or the Obama camp has problems.

I have my preferences and assume that the choice by Obama will be someone I’m most likely to say, “I can’t believe that person is his choice.”

But I will still most likely suck it up and vote for a flawed ticket in November as the alternative is beyond the pale.

My problem with Biden, along with the other points mentioned, is that he is totally in bed with the credit card companies. I always used to jokingly refer to him as Biden (D-MBNA). (MBNA is now of course Bank of America).

Another problem I have with him is that he generally agrees with all the very serious people in regard to foreign policy. While that might help Obama get elected, it puts another strike against Obama in the foreign policy book in my view.

Finally, and slightly OT, I’d like to make an observation I’ve made while lurking. Whenever a discussion comes up regarding Obama and something that he didn’t do that is progressive enough, I see quite a few people just say that they’re going to just sit out, vote for a 3rd party person and things of that ilk. I certainly am not happy with a lot of things that Obama is saying or how he has acted in regard to FISA, among other things.

I realize that the man is therefore not perfect at all, but the alternative is 150 times worse. Think of the US as a big huge ship, which can’t make a radical change off course, but only can make incremental small course corrections, while sailing towards an iceberg. McCain (I refuse to use infantile nicknames, it’s so Rush Limbaugh) is the guy on the Titanic who says “nothing to see here, let the band play on,” while Obama offers at least some hope to some course correction.

With McCain in office, it will be much more difficult to push through any kind of progressive agenda. With Obama we will at least have a shot of making incremental changes. Think of how we got Liebermann out of the party (Nedra Pickler actually finally got it right in a write up today) or Albert Wynn out of office. That should be the goal. By voting for that charlatan, Nader, or staying at home with your arms crossed you are harming the progressive cause.

I’ve heard of my conservative acquaintances refer to McCain as a traitor during the primaries, but now he is the nominee, I get all kinds of BS e-mails from them touting his conservative bona fides and what a wonderful woman Cindy McCain is. Conservatives will do anything to win, including stuffing ballot boxes or rigging voting machines, and will create their own reality to justify their vote to themselves. I am not by any means saying we should do the same, but we should be aware of what we are up against.

In closing, there are 2 totally different things in cheerleading your candidate and supporting your candidate. I will support Obama, but I refuse to cheerlead for him – the cheerleading part actually reinforces that whole “Messiah” talking point, which thanks to Mark Penn and the Clinton campaign, has actually made some in-roads in to Obama’s support.

Unfortunately we don’t have true representative democracy in this country where you have political parties that represent more of your interests – we’re stuck with the Democratic party, which contains a large number of corporatists and “Blue Dogs.” The Democratic party, since it is much more bottom up than top down than the GOP, can be changed. If we all sit at home with our arms crossed saying “we’re going to hell in a handbasket” (and I have observed a lot of that in the comment boards) that might become a self-fulfilling prophecy. The writers and editors on this site have it right, they are trying to create change. The question you should ask yourself is how can you institute that change is well?

[stepping off of soapbox now]

Thanks for listening….

How They Voted – Bankruptcy Bill

In closing, there are 2 totally different things in cheerleading your candidate and supporting your candidate. I will support Obama, but I refuse to cheerlead for him – the cheerleading part actually reinforces that whole “Messiah” talking point,

I agree with that one.

Your opinions about veeps simply does not matter.

Bring wireless Internet to everyone, everywhere. Free the airwaves!

thanks for the reference cbl
that vote is unforgivable.

Where’s the Usury Bill?

Can’t help but notice how Lieberman cast an opportunistic “yea” vote, probably all the while knowing that it was an empty vote. Holy Joe was really master of the shell voting game for a while, back when he was pretending to be a Dem.

Well, Obama was never a progressive in the first place. And while he denied ties to the DLC . . . mmmm. So in reality–not in campaign narrative–it’s not like any of these choices will really besmirch his “credentials.” The campaign narrative of course, is a differnet story.

“Where’s the Usury Bill?”

‘Tied up’ by the Debtor Prisons and Workhouses Committee, perhaps?

Pollsters now assure us that the election will be decided by a 61.5 year old woman in Ohio who doesn’t read the newspaper and who thinks that American Idol is the only thing worth watching on teevee.

ah yes, the yahoo! demographic.

there once was a gaffer named Biden
an MBNA love he never tried hidin’
let the poor suckers swing
I care not a thing
if the chasm ‘tween classes doth widen !

National politics sucks the life outta politicians and their families, the unreal nature of life in the artificial bubble does not excuse such behavior but unless the politician runs on a platform of “family values” it doesn’t mean a tinker’s dam.

Well, see, Norske, that’s the problem! I think Edwards did run on a platform of family values. I also think he played fast and loose with this election knowing what he had to hide and deciding to run anyway. What do you think would have happened if he had become the presumptive nominee and this came out? Especially after all of us concentrate so heavily on making such fun of all the Rethugs sexual indiscretions. The Democratic party would likely have been in tatters. I don’t appreciate that aspect of his behavior, although I don’t really like the idea of panty sniffing and condemning someone for personal or sexual matters. As the saying goes, nobody knows what goes on behind closed doors, and as far as I’m concerned, nobody should. It’s the way his behavior affects others that puts me off some. I just think he’s wrecked his credibility indefinitely. That’s too bad, because I think he was a talented man with many good qualities. I expected him to at least be in the cabinet, but he’s made himself into cryptonite. I don’t mean to be hateful; I just think it’s unfortunate.

Biden AUMF vote, a liability, can be offset if Biden states forcefully that Obama showed presidential judgment before anyone else. Also, among the perverse warmongering premises of our press masters is the notion that a pro-war vote shows foreign policy “toughness”.

But that would require trusting the sincerity of Biden’s turn towards the light, and I’m skeptical that he is as sincere in wanting to withdraw from Iraq as, say, Lieberman is in favor of it.

I also don’t trust him to attack McCain in the kind of provocative way this campaign demands. There will be too much of this senatorial comity bullshit.

Biden is a good candidate for making a case among pundits, but that’s worth nothing.

I’m not recommending her; I just think if there is a surprise choice, to me she is the logical one. OTOH, we just recently heard that Iraq has an $80 billion dollar surplus in their treasury. That’s with a B for Billion! I think we owe them war retribution, but I want us to get our contractors out of there so they will stop taking the jobs that Iraqis need to feed their families. Then we wonder why their blow up or tear down the stuff we build for them! We act as if these people weren’t a civilization well before we even found the continent we live on. We do not have to treat them like illiterate children. It’s time.

This election is about winning Ohio- and it’s the people in the MIDDLE who matter most… so figure out who are the undecided voters in Ohio- and you’ll know who to pick for veep for political purposes..Probably Bayh.

I don’t think Edwards ran on a platform of “family values” in the way that maybe Larry Craig did, touting “protect marriage,” or any other of the repukes. I paid more attention to policy, but what I heard was that he was proud of his family,etc. etc. and talked of his growing up experiences. That’s not the same to me as beating a that old repuke politician’s pulpit. condeming all those single mothers, gays and lesbians.

and if I thought our Rayne was around

there once was an Ol Teef n Tufts
of gaffes he could not make enough
he cried forget the “articulate” crock
and choose me Barack
and to us all the white geezers will flock

Except if Ohio is pretty hard hit by the banking and mortgage and all that, as well as NAFTA, then there’s may be a big problem with Biden, that already compounds the “overheated camapign rhetoric” untrustworthiness of Obama in that area.
We are thinking to win here.

Think of the US as a big huge ship . . .sailing towards an iceberg

I think we have already hit the iceberg, actually several of them. McCain’s plan is to knock a bunch of holes in the side of the ship below the waterline to let the water out. Obama being a moderate thinks we should only punch half as many holes in the ship. From where I’m sitting, with leaders like these, the ship is still going down, although the speed at which it sinks may vary.

I also don’t trust him to attack McCain in the kind of provocative way this campaign demands. There will be too much of this senatorial comity bullshit.

Funny thing is, that’s exactly what I do trust him for. Biden is capable of getting angry about stuff and saying so very forthrightly. That’s his main best point to be VP. While Obama is very measured in virtually every word, Biden is a shoot from the hip sort, similar to McCain. If the two were to have a shootout, my money would be on Biden. I believe Biden can hold his own with anyone in this regard. He can be the attack dog we need; I like the flames he throws. Personally, I think he also knows how to be a team player, and he’s been underrated. Guess we have to wait and see if he’s Obama’s choice, and then like it or lump it.

Many Republican coworkers are excited about Obama. 2 have asked me this morning about Veep picks. Both say the best choice is Kathleen Sebelius. Don’t know that I agree but there it is.

My gut tells me it’s going to be Kaine.

I’m no fan of either Biden or Kaine. While choice and religion are important “no” factors for me re Kaine, Biden’s being mobbed up with the banking and credit business, is, in this day and age, a very serious, weighty “no” imho.

that’s funny. “we can do better“

perfect slogan, really.

Obama will pick someone young, attractive, and “Not a partisan gunslinger”. That’s his MO for this election…

I’ll guess Bayh.

Must I remind everyone that Delaware is the state of Incorporation for most major corporations because of its pro-business laws? Biden has represented Delaware for how many years?

Erk! You mean we are not safe in the hands of the holey warriors?

I feel faint, … quickly! fetch my smelling salts, oh dear! oh dear!

Women, children and tables first! Put nothing on the tables!!!

We shall have to build a new ship on those tables! Step lively now!

Obama ran a brilliant primary campaign. His general election campaign seems to less stellar. Dems always seem to run good primaries but tepid in the general. Obama always seems to be responding to attacks by McSame and his surrogates in the Republican Party and the corporate media. Playing defense is not the way to win elections. It seems he is trapped by his “can’t we all just get along” meme. If the Dems don’t take off the gloves and go after the corruption, hypocrisy and totallitarian tendencies of the other side, they will be handed another defeat for President. Republicans are as not honorable and Obama better learn that before the election rather than after.

As far as I am concerned, that 80 billion means nothing compared to the lives lost, the damaged infrastructure, the looting of national treasures and the bombing of ancient mosques. reparations are in order. It makes me sick to even think someone should think the Iraqis should pay their way out of the hole. And yes construction involving Iraqis would be better than construction involving Halliburton.

I still think he’s a good man with many fine attributes, but feet of clay. I just think he needs to find other ways to employ his talents now. My main point is that his behavior, his indiscretion would have made our chances to win the presidency all the more vulnerable and he knew that when he chose to run. He does not live in a vacuum; he was taking his party down a risky path and he knew it. He got caught at it ultimately. I say, even though I supported his candidacy, thank goodness he didn’t win or we would not even have an equal chance today. The party would likely be in disarray as we went into the convention. So it makes sense to me to say too bad, so sad, and move on.

So, to use my own terminology, how do you propose to build a new ship if your hypothesis is correct? (I respectfully disagree there, but I guess I am more of a glass half full kind of guy)

I don’t see Obama wanting an attack dog. If so why did he shoot down Clark. Clark didn’t say anything that was not true.

Let’s trash the dept of Heimat security, Every Child left behind , etc.

Dave Neiwert a couple of flights upstairs on a USA Gold Medalist sure to make Malkin’s head explode.

I hope you’re right.

The problem with Biden in this regards is that he’s garrulous. He’s not focused like a laser beam with the vicious attacks, like Lieberman, for example. What I mean by “provocative” is someone who will bait McCain.

Maybe because Clark is a war profiteer, bombed civilians and was a clinton shrill?

If I can pursue the ship metaphor: I think we’re a pirate ship manned by zombies.

Lieberman is a one-note kinda guy. He just repeats, repeats, repeats. Is that what we want in a VP? BTW. I am not pushing for Biden.

Yep

Obama hasn’t figured out how to control the discussion against the food fight gooper strategy..

The media feels obligated to report a food fight- and then the poor sap dem candidate is stuck with responding to childish and outlandish bullshit…
Works most of the time…

Obama needs to attack in my opinion- or he’ll lose- but he needs to attack in a way that brings the focus back to HIS issues!

Is that what we want in a VP?

Yes.

The Trouble With Biden is all in his foreign policy credentials. Here he is drawing the parameters of our policy with Russia, offering 1 billion of our money to Georgia to rebuild and saying “I left the country convinced that Russia’s invasion of Georgia may be the one of the most significant event to occur in Europe since the end of communism.” I don’t know which label to stick on him: “neoconservative” or “liberal hawk” — I mean, he’s not really a liberal, is he?

Agreed, so there must be some other more personal reason that we are not privy to that makes him so utterly dead set against General Clarke.

You’ve read Thom Hartmann, I see.

I agree with all of this. With McCain in office, however, there is zero chance that DHS will be dissolved. The loathsome NCLB will be more than likely disappear, but replaced with something even worse, as, if the GOP and its friends in Rick Warren’s church has its way, public schools will be replaced with either profit based or home-schooling.

With Obama in office, at least there is a chance. Furthermore if said change turns out to be for the better, it will allow us to make more changes from within.

I am just not an anarchist who believes that everything needs to proverbially be blown up, since we have no idea what actually will replace it.

Agreed again.

But how do we change this?

Or, if you think said metaphorical ship needs to be destroyed, how do you propose to achieve this?

Couldn’t agree more. He has to frame his attacks to demonstrate how Republicans and their ideology of greed are destroying the working/middle classes. His campaign is beginning to look more and more like Kerry’s in 2004. Don’t expect the American electorate to see through the Republican subterfuge and bs.

I consider myself a liberal (not ultra liberal, but liberal) yet I also think that this move by the Russians is the first in a series, not a singular provoked event. I believe they are flexing their muscles now that we’ve lost credibility and become a joke. This was totally foreseeable and predictable. Did this administration think nobody would notice that we have overextended our armed forces, that we are having problems maintaining our armaments, that our funds are being expended too much on unnecessary foreign wars to suit our populace? Did they seriously think nobody would take advantage of this now that we’ve become a parody in the eyes of the world. We’ve lost a lot of ground with Bush at the helm, and we stand to be soundly defeated if McSame wins the next election. I just hope the American population realizes this in time to do something about it. I know this, the world wants at least one superpower to look up to, so the farther we slip down that slippery slope, the more likely Russia or perhaps China will be to try to creep up. We have a limited time to regain our lead position, so if we waste it this time, our society will likely grossly evolve into something we don’t even recognize.

I think Biden may be particularly good at that. Remember what he said about Gulliani: “Giuliani’s sentences comprise of a noun, a verb, and 9/11.”

Power is the threat of force – when that force is expended power vanishes.
Bush/Cheney have squandered both. There are different types of force – military, economic, moral – all squandered.

we stand to be soundly defeated if McSame wins the next election

We have a limited time to regain our lead position,

What do these things mean? Maybe I’m too “ultra” liberal to grasp them ;-)

Some euphemism-laden references to bombing and killing on our part and Russia’s don’t clarify your point:

“I believe they are flexing their muscles now that we’ve lost credibility and become a joke.”

There is no “lead position” that “we” can reclaim. There are some oil companies and some defense contractors and some Israelis and some other interests I’m sure other people can name behind our wars. There isn’t any national interest animating any of our actions. Such a thing doesn’t exist. When it comes to foreign policy, we aren’t part of this “we”.

Don’t ask me. I’m just shackled in the hold.

Biden may not be able to wear the ermine, or the denim, but he’s got “working-class roots and a street-level feel for the hot spots of the globe”!

That’s from the girlishly vapid Howard Fineman. No mention of his vote for the Iraq war.

I’m talking about being a force to be reckoned with by the janjaweed as they murder people with machetes for the sake of ethnic cleansing. I’m talking about the ability to make a difference by sending peacekeepers into Bosnia/Herzegovina. That may not be in our national interests, but it seems to me it’s in the interest of the human race.

I am not talking about waging war for oil or any other fossil fuel or commodity. And BTW, I am not talking about being soundly defeated militarily by the Russians or anyone else necessarily. We have sunk from a first class industrialized country with a good world reputation to a joke and a parody due to our policy of hegemony. We’ve gone from a shining example, a pattern to which many other countries aspired, to smart-alecs with imperial aspirations which we are currently putting into effect. If we don’t stop those tendencies, if we don’t lose the aspirations of imperialism, some other powerful nation is bound to try to do it for us at some point. That’s what I meant.

Thank you for this article. I have known of Biden for decades — which is to say, I have paid attention to politics for a loooong time, unlike most Americans.

But lately, there is so much to remember, who can remember all, off the top of their head?

I am so glad you posted these reminders. When Biden’s name came up in a big way, I had an uneasy feeling. But I didn’t remember exactly why. All I could really come up with was the latest “clean” remark. I didn’t think THAT would stop him from being a VP candidate. But your link to Jack&Jill reminded me. I had heard these before — but couldn’t think of them, off hand. Now I do.

EVERY VP candidate will have problems. Well, every Democratic candidate. But some have too many to ignore.

Thanks again.