Musharraf has fallen, but has he fallen too late to save Pakistan and Afghanistan? As Ahmed Rashid pointed out a year ago, when the US made its deal with Musharraf, what happened is that Pakistan "went after" al-Qaeda, but at the same time they spent money and time helping the Taliban. The Taliban originally came to power with the help of Pakistan’s intelligence service, it was their creation, and they saw no reason to give it up. So they told Americans, specifically they told Cheney’s office, which froze out State, as usual, what they wanted to hear. Then they continued the policies of the 90s.
This makes a certain amount of sense if you’re Pakistan – play both ends and no matter who wins, you’re golden. Help the US and if the US’s puppet government actually takes effective control of Afghanistan, well, that’s good. Keep helping the Taliban and if they win, well, they’re still your boys. How can you lose?
Meanwhile, Musharraf’s relationship with the West disintegrated as the Taliban gained ground in Afghanistan, using its bases in Pakistan. There was a Taliban blowback inside Pakistan as the Pakistani Pashtun tribesmen who protected bin Laden and the Afghan Taliban when they retreated to Pakistan in 2001 were themselves radicalized. They formed their own militias with their own agenda: to turn Pakistan into an Islamic Taliban-style state. In December, they assassinated the one person who could have pulled the country together — PPP leader Benazir Bhutto.
Benazir, of course, died because Musharraf did not give her adequate security, something she noted before her death.
By tolerating the Taliban presence, and then by failing to remove the Taliban while using force against the Pashtun tribesmen in the area, Musharraf radicalized them and turned them into dagger aimed at Pakistan’s heart.
US Pakistan policy was run out of Cheney’s office, though State was certainly complicit. For years we’ve been reading about continued ISI support for the Taliban, and the US just looked the other way. Then when Musharraf was in trouble domestically, the US mostly stuck by him instead of telling him it was time to step down.
Afghanistan is an issue because it can be used as a base for training mujahadeen. Pakistan is an issue because it has nukes. Cheney’s support for Musharraf’s policies has put Pakistan into play.
There are two extremely important pieces on the global chessboard for al-Qaeda (or, if you prefer, for those who want a Caliphate. Al-Qaeda is more of an ideology these days than an organization perhaps, but it is more dangerous as such.) They are Pakistan with its nukes "no you can’t interfere with us militarily, because we have nukes" and Saudi Arabia, "now we control the world’s key oil producer, and any Muslim who wants to do their Haj must come to us."
One of those two pieces is now threatened. Let’s hope that Pakistan’s unwieldy and fractious coalition government is able to work with the military to do something about it. And let’s hope someone in Pakistan finally grabs the bull by the horns and purges the ISI.
Or in a few years we may be talking about a much worse form of blowback than 9/11.
Related posts:
- How Can We Negotiate in Good Faith with the Iranians When We Play Dumb About Israel’s Nukes?
- The US Military Suddenly Discovers International Law–When the Taliban Breaks It
- You Got To Move
- To COIN or Not To COIN: Afghanistan-Pakistan Policy Needs Public Debate, Consensus
- Odierno and Petraeus vs. Cheney on Abuse as a Terrorist Recruitment Tool
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Aloha, Ian!
Pakistan has also passed on numerous nuke secrets through A.Q. Khan…
Is there anything left in the world that Cheney has NOT screwed up?
For awhile I believed that what we view as screwups really advanced the neocon agenda.
But I can’t see how this benefits them. Is there an upside for the warmonger contingent?
Do they really want all out nuclear war?
As Ahmed Rashid pointed out a year ago, when the US made its deal with Musharraf, what happened is that Pakistan “went after” al-Qaeda, but at the same time they spent money and time helping the Taliban. The Taliban originally came to power with the help of Pakistan’s intelligence service, it was their creation, and they saw no reason to give it up.
How do you help the Taliban and not help Ossama? Does Darth ever read his own intelligence reports?
1,737 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Ian Welsh and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
Thanx for the post Citizen Welsh…”may I have another?” It seems that we have indeed reached the end of a history now with the dismantling of the nuclear non-proliferation regimes of the past, the encouragement of nuclear arms and nuclear technology expansion, the reignition of a cold war politics with regard to nuclear Russia and now the real possibility that al-Qaeda may get Pakistan’s bomb. The destabilization of the entire world is, of course, the goal of corporate fascism and our country is now disarmed in relation to an ability to face down corporate power in world affairs. Thanx Ralph Nader.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION AND REMEMBER THERE IS NO COMPROMISING WITH FASCISM!!
I hope whoever steps in next will restore the judges Musharraf imprisoned so he could steal his election after Bhutto was assassinated.
the ones he had created especially for himself?
Also interesting, Musharraf will be moving to Saudi Arabia.. New landlord, the bin Laden family?
Pakistan is right in the middle of what happened on 9/11:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Sheikh
Cheney’s greatest strength is an unparalled ability to always associate himself with bad actors — no matter when, where, or what the situation.
The Pakistani problem is another demonstration of the utter incompetence of the 1600 Crew and its group of misfits, malevolent fools and just generally stupid people.
The old strategery of propping up people like Musharraf has blown back on us more times than it’s proven successful; it was a trademark of the Cold War, an environment that Darth Dick is more than comfortable operating in.
Suffering from these fools will be our burden for decades to come. I hope that there is no mushroom cloud in our future thanks to the failed foreign policy of Preznit Hubris and his crew.
I’m more worried Darth will get us into a slugfest with Russia than anything coming out of Pakistan. The US has suffered a strategic defeat in the Middle East that will take some time to sink in — our foreign policy establishment are still in semi-denial about it. The Israeli’s understand it perfectly, which is why they want to provoke a pre-emptive attack on Iran before the US withdraws to a safer neighborhood. I don’t really see the US being subjected to a ‘revenge’ bombing unless we continue to support Israel’s occupation of the West Bank. That’s the key that unlocks all the issues. If we could get a settlement there, the other stuff is containable.
Of course. The dots are all right there. Unf’ingbelievable…”apparently”.
December, they assassinated the one person who could have pulled the country together — PPP leader Benazir Bhutto.
Benazir, of course, died because Musharraf did not give her adequate security, something she noted before her death. ‘
Musharrif should have benefited from Benazir’s death more than the Taliban I think he did it and framed them. Benazir was acceptable to the west had support and would have arrested Musharrif.
The Taliban however hate women and would have gotten more funding from the Saudis to whack her if she got elected. Whacking her before she was elected hurt their funding and did help Musharrif lose.
Not only that it gave the new government casus beli to go after the Taliban if they want to after they get rid of Musharrif.
Any Poly Sci major could have predicted that… outside of the White House.
So they told Americans, specifically they told Cheney’s office, which froze out State, as usual, what they wanted to hear.
Cheney got punk’d? Poor guy – how’s he gonna carry on with such a massive blow to his
plan for world dominationego?By tolerating the Taliban presence, and then by failing to remove the Taliban while using force against the Pashtun tribesmen in the area, Musharraf radicalized them and turned them into dagger aimed at Pakistan’s heart.
It’s hard out there for a
pimpPerv.Your right I’m wrong does Darth ever read the real intelligence reports?
i thought the issue was india.
our support of india’s nuke program and india’s support of our afghanistan occupation. pakistan sees india as trying to encircle it. support for the taliban served to keep an ally of in afghanistan as a counter to this.
do i have that wrong?
They are way too greedy to destroy the world. They don’t mind destroying compartmentalized segments of the world, but they won’t go to Armageddon, because, quite frankly, they are totally invested in making a profit at the expense of anyone in their way….they love their luxuries.
Well, let’s just say Musharraf left the opening. Not sure who exploited it, but lots of people had reasons not to like Bhutto. Despite her hagriophy in the West she was not a nice lady.
Well, they’ve always wanted to be sure they control Afghanistan to avoid Indian encirclement. I don’t think India’s influence in Afghanistan right now is that strong, though Afghanistan has made some friendly noises to Delhi, since they sure know who’s funding the Taliban.
let’s see, there was the shah nah nah of Iran, Saddam, Musharraf… how many more.
Don’t forget Carter was vilified for refusing to prop up the evil shah.
what kind of a settlement do you imagine?
You did catch this recent turn of events?
US court rules Saudis immune for Sept 11 attacks
I doubt that AQ killed Bhutto. I think it is quite obvious.
Cheney got punk’d? Poor guy – how’s he gonna carry on with such a massive blow to his plan for world domination ego?
How will he carry on? Well if you compartmentalize your mind and put the “massive blow to his plan for world domination ego?” into a compartment you never open then it didn’t happen.
Darth is a reality is perceived and not objective kind of person like most believers and magical thinkers.
Sure they claim faith and God as justification but its God’s belief and not theirs that causes reality.
Cheney is a madman, pure and simple.
Which is, I hope, no defense to war crimes.
Yes. I understand that they are saying that the country of SA can’t be sued just because some citizens did the deed,….of course, I don’t believe a word of it anyway, because it is clear that the people who benefited from 9/11 are certainly not AQ, but are those that do business with SA…those who have benefited from the actions of AQ are the special interests…the war profiteers..including Bandar Bush…so, I think the whole thing is BS. It is so obvious if anyone bothers to look into it…but..nooooo…..you are accused of tinfoil stuff….
I wear my tin-foil chapeau proudly
Do you suppose he only drinks grain alcohol and distilled water?
Dr. Strangelove used to make me laugh, I wonder if would still seem funny.
from stratfor:
did anyone know that you can not only use the spotlight function on fdl to spotlight posts but you can also send your letters to over a thousand tv, radio and print media–producers, anchors, editors, reporters, etc., and then when the preview part comes up-edit the post stuff all out to send what you want?????
kinda like having an 800 number.
1-800-450-8293 congressional switchboard
sent over 600 today…..
I wear my tin-foil chapeau proudly
and quite stylishly, if I may be so bold… *g*
No your right the problem is Ossama also has ties to the Taliban he was the Saudi moneyman and made sure the Taliban got their weapons and cash.
Notice the Taliban not the Northern Alliance got the cash and weapons Pakistani intelligence made sure radical Muslims would take over.
Charlie Wilson from the movie Charlie Wilson’s war never asked why Pakistan’s spooks only gave the Taliban and not the Northern Alliance American money and weapons.
Charlie Wilson’s neglect to oversee the aid money helped create the Taliban several of whom would later join Ossama.
The religious schools that Saudia Arabia funds in Afghanistan and Pakistan might help explain Ossama’s continued support.
I hope that America has closed down those schools in both countries or else there will be more volunteers to attack us by strapping bombs on their back.
Interesting Any replies?
My “reply” doesn’t work…so…
“foxman”: My question is, what would Cheney be willing to sacrifice to get what he wants….
He is clearly a frikkin’ maniac…and he is in control of the airforce…since early 2001 when W gave him those powers….hence the crappola on 9/11, when he was at the controls…calling shots whilst W was flying all over the place…oh yeah, and reading upside down books to kindergartners…”kindergartners”…hmmmmm…that’s kind of like “homeland”…
i want someone to break my record.
See…that is what they are always doing…creating friggin’ conflict of interest….
Stirring and stirring….toil and trouble.
I think I’ll put my money on the Taliban. But that makes it hard for Pakistan to back down.
The head spokesman for the Taliban attended Yale, after 9/11..what about that???? The US helped creat AQ….what about that? W was roomates with Bin Laden’s brother. What about that?
i think so too.
The United States recently made a nuke deal with India…remember?
The United States “needs” the territory in Pakistan to get supplies to the troops.
Any discussion of Pakistan’s nukes has to include a discussion of AQ Khan — but to this point, he seems to have disappeared from the media (and BushCo) radar. Despite being under house arrest, he remains very popular with Pakistanis, and in July he made news when he claimed that the transfers of uranium enrichment equipment to North Korea (to which he had earlier admitted) were undertaken under the supervision of military and security service personnel who reported to Musharraf, and that none of this could have been done without Musharraf’s approval.
Could it be that AQK is another actor in this drama to push Musharraf out, to “thank” him for locking AQK in his own house for the last several years? If so, this raises all kinds of questions about the current and future status of Pakistan’s nuclear program. Disturbing questions.
The “goals” in the “big picture” are to get oil pipelines secured in the region….Overthrow anyone who won’t cooperate…hence the Taliban that didn’t want the Unocal pipeline in Afghanistan, and they needed the Iraq territory, and they want the Pakistan territory, and they want the Iranian territory….
They pit everyone against each other and they then jump in and interfere with arms sales to control the situation. This is Neoconism 101.
And Georgia plays into this too….only Putin is an ally with W. He is a Neocon…the others are puppets….Putin, Berluscosi, McCain, W, and others are united as Neocons. They have an agenda. They cooperate with each other.
The United States recently made a nuke deal with India…remember?
yeah. What’d we get in return? I can’t remember. Was it squash, or zucchini or something?
I don’t know, but they never do it without a payoff.
watertiger upstairs with the family that shuns together
Cheney, sacrifice? Ha! Those two words can’t be used in the same sentence.
Seriously, if we knew what he wanted we could hire some negotiators.
he’s got hostages you know…all of us.
wasn’t that the point? our decision was to fund the most radical extremists?
and there’s also this from wikipedia:
Wow! I’m curious as to what changes you make to the post itself, and how you improve it for spotlighting.
me, too
if anything sibel edmonds is saying is true then the khan story is much more complicated than we have been told – and it may not involve pakistan all that much. pakistan may have been more of a cover. don’t know if any of this is true, but ellsberg has been supporting her and waxman refuses to hold the hearings he promised.
something doesn’t add up… imo.
only autoreplies-so, ok, things, here’s the truth of it and why i push it here and there-i do have replies notched on my belt that you would be proud of and relationships with news people in my area, i am called the info lady and lady liberty, with respect, by people i don’t even know……onto my 12th belt of notches by now…and things brought up on the news locally and nationally that i know damn well were because i wrote-because they wrote to me.one national news talk show, the producers write, though not as often as i would like….-which is why it is important to write the damn letters people. and call.about whatever concerns you in your experience, in your world, just do it.
i write a few every single morning, and call.every single day, no fail.all depends on the subject and who the guests are for the week as to where i write.takes five minutes to check schedules.i adapt the letters according to whom they are sent.
today was different, which is why i’m ‘bragging’ to get people to take 5 minutes to back my ass up and use spotlight and send some mail out.
back me up. back fdl up.
pony up.
mccain’s ‘pow cross’ tale, lie in front of a pastor in a church, in front of millions of people was beyond the pale. and how did they have a coin toss if they weren’t both there? obama was gamed, warren showed his fundie colors on hannity tonight when asked about jeremiah wright——-mccain a self-professed christian lied in a church to a pastor in front of millions, wassup?
5 minutes of your time to send it home…..use jane’s post from earlier today.or write your own, that’s quicker.delete the post part when it shows preview/ edit, and fill it in.
Look at oil and gas pipelines and field then be a fly on the wall in the Oil Oligarchy’s coprporate boardrooms. That is where our foriegn policy is made. Whomever controls the energy supply/pricing has the keys to the corporate kingdom. Hence inflation food cost and much more.
Energy is the ring of power.
Alternative energy transfers that power more surely than any war. Big oil is desperate to hold. The negative balance of payments mean only a few will win. That is a hard position to hold.
Looks like we are about to change foriegn policy. This one has been a disater for most folks on the planet.
. . .yes they do – but these Masters of the Universe may have set in motion events now careening away on their own unstoppable momentum. and they may be deep enough in a mannon engorged stupor to somehow think it’s all still managable
think of Musharraf and his dagger
or Cheney the Sub Commander who has turned our ship of state in to one of our own torpedoes
same tragically predictable scenarios just on different scales
teddy–you can use it as a mailing list of your own by deleting the text.when you preview..
nice trick, eh?
yeah, i hide myself, sneaky as hell.but in a good way.cuz i’m honest.to a fault.
bbl, gotta go do something.
Rev, believe AQ has been released from house arrest 7/27/8
Link
latest kos diary from lukery who has been the go to blogger for the edmonds story: Sibel Edmonds Case: FBI files “formal complaint” with Sunday Times
again, i don’t know the truth of this… but what i do know is that waxman should have had the hearings he promised to have.
wasn’t that the point? our decision was to fund the most radical extremists?
That was certainly Pakistan’s point but was it ours?
Is so then we intentionally made a huge mistake. Still if Charlie had like Ossama gone and did some real oversight he might have seen a Saudi Madrassa and realized that they were not in the best interest of the United States.
Throwing cash without oversight to our *cough * friends without oversight is Americas biggest foreign policy problem.
and teddy, and anyone else, i preferred having people thinking i was stupid, so, if you gained from this–you have to join the firedoglake readers flicker page…that’s the price …
write the letters. this one matters.
mattered enough for me to send over 600 out today.with caps and proper english.
and i loooooove the flicker pages, really.
and see my blog.
bbl.
i thought the decision came from us – and the cia worked through the isi to get it done. but i’m too tired to look it up right now. if you want, remind me some other time and i’ll try to dig up some notes on it.
in any event, i don’t think the problem is so much the madrassas, most suicide terrorists do not come from them (according to robert pape’s research).
sorry for the lack of links… hitting the wall now.
and just read your 53, can you put together a tutorial post on how you do this?
I love the idea and have the time to communicate, but would appreciate some pointers.
Thanks!
-Joel
You should do a post on this FDL should highlight this success I hope others at the Lake are doing this and Yes you deserve thanks for a job well done.
i thought the decision came from us – and the cia worked through the isi to get it done.
Honestly I’m not sure what the truth is after 9/11 I’m sure the CIA ran from their support of the Taliban and cleaned up what they could to protevt their image.
I understand if your tired get some rest.
after all i’ve been through here-=-i finally got my ‘rudy’ moment….seriously, have lost count of the people who come up to me who heard me on diane rehm after i emailed points to them ahead of time that they didn’t use, so, i call and point them out, how many were affected by me calling? lots…..not often. and local call-in show-when it’s not factual i call…even repubs miss me when i don’t…
i stepped it up after ali’s death, no, murder, , for mohammed. that’s why.
gotta go do something..bbl.
you can get a tentative email address from my blog.i don’t check it all of the time..but i do check it.
Without a doubt.
just noticed something. I’ll check in.
thanks.
-J
You come up with some very interesting things, Selise, and in consequence, I try not to miss your commenting. And you are not redundant with the other commenters, which makes it even more interesting.
and i brought this back from the thread ahead–it seems it was raptured–cuz no comments for ahalf hour where i said way too much,and no new thread—dunno….
and this is the song that was going through my head while writing over 600 letters about mccain’s lyin’ ass today–
put a little love in your heart..i absolutely hate the man, but i don’t forget what the goal is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cE_bjt8wx0g
al green and annie lennox singing it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHuGyuwvPLg
see, in spite of, or because of all of my gifts i was given and born into , i actually believe this shit can happen.
replyReply
=====
point is–this is what i was listening to while i wrote all of those letters about hte lyin’ mccain today.
..and eureka is right when he called me the turtle with theswpunky bullhorn,,, get out your bullhorn turtles!!!!
Read “The Places In Between” by a Scotsman who walked across Afghanistan in, I think, 2002. He spoke fluent Farsi and passed as Afghani. The stories he tells of our stupidity like flying in to tell people in the hinterlands they now have democracy and can vote against the warlord and then flying away and dropping leaflets on people who can’t read. He thought then (around 2006)we might prevail in Afghanistan if we built the country up economically and improved people’s lives, but we didn’t. The same is true in Pakistan. We want to turn everyone into Americans, but are we all that happy and wonderful others want to emulate us? We are so full of ourselves. It will do us in.