Tonight Senator Obama has a date with hate. Unlike Obama’s flip-flop on his promised opposition to FISA amnesty, the ambitious Senator chooses to honor his commitment to Rick Warren. Why would this ambitious politician who has long desired to be Most Powerful Man In The World forsake his promise to defend the Constitution, yet keep his promise to the eliminationist hate preacher Rick Warren? What does it tell us about what passes for our democracy that the presumptive Democratic nominee chose to appear before — and answer questions from—a demagogue who opposes human rights and reproductive freedom?
First, a few facts.What is eliminationism? A few weeks ago Jonathan Huston, Physicians For Human Rights’ chief communications officer, visited the Lake. Writing in a personal capacity, he reminded us what David Neiwart wrote at Orcinius:
"That’s how eliminationist hate works, regardless of its target: Its aim is to threaten and intimidate not merely the immediate target, but anyone who might think of speaking out on their behalf. This cuts the target off from the community support it might normally enjoy and leaves them feeling even more isolated.
"What, really, is eliminationism?
"It’s a fairly self-explanatory term: it describes a kind of politics and culture that shuns dialogue and the democratic exchange of ideas for the pursuit of outright elimination of the opposing side, either through complete suppression, exile and ejection, or extermination."
Jonathan also pointed out:
When Rev. Warren suggests that gay rights are other than human rights, he is advancing eliminationist rhetoric. When he states that homosexuality is not natural and not to be tolerated, he is advancing the position that homosexuality is unnatural and to be – what’s the opposite of tolerated? – oh yeah: eliminated.
What does Rick Warren say about LGBT people, one-seventh of all humanity, when he’s out of American media view?
What was the context for Warren’s statement? Writing at Talk To Action, Richard Bartholomew stated:
Warren was speaking in support of Ugandan Anglicans who intend to boycott the forthcoming Lambeth Conference, and this harsh rejection of tolerance for gays and lesbians may have serious consequences in a country where homosexuals face harrassment and and the threat of imprisonment.
Warren’s comment is of a piece with his support for Martin Ssempa, the Ugandan evangelist who has been a keynote speaker at a Warren conference, and who has received US global AIDS prevention funds. As I wrote in August, Ssempa wants to ensure that homosexuality remains illegal and that gays and lesbians are identified in the public mind as sexual abusers. Ssempa calls for media censorship against opposing views and the dismissal of dissenting academics, and last summer he organized a rally with the theme "A Call for Action on Behalf of the Victims of Homosexuality", at which he railed against "molestation and sodomy."
(kjm: emphases mine)
What African religious leaders does Rick Warren exult when he’s home in the US? In a fluff job for Time magazine, Rick Warren sings hosannas for the virulently anti-gay Archbishop Akinola By coincidence, Akinola just happens to be point man in the the schism paralyzing the politically influential and hitherto tolerant Anglican Communion: the same global congregation that — before the schism — vigorously and effectively promoted a global vision of tolerance and social justice antithetical to American evangelicals’ hate speech and prejudice.
New African, Asian and Latin American church leaders like Akinola, 61, are bright, biblical, courageous and willing to point out the inconsistencies, weaknesses and theological drift in Western churches…
…Akinola has the strength of a lion, useful in confronting Third World fundamentalism and First World relativism…
…He has been criticized for recent remarks of frustration that some felt exacerbated Muslim-Christian clashes in his country. But Christians are routinely attacked in parts of Nigeria, and his anger was no more characteristic than Nelson Mandela’s apartheid-era statement that "sooner or later this violence is going to spread to whites." I believe he, like Mandela, is a man of peace and his leadership is a model for Christians around the world.
Gee. Guess Reverend Warren — that very ambitious man of God — left out a little bit. Like the bit about Akinola’s own hate speech and eliminationist views.
[Akinola] has been a mouthpiece for the most homophobic tendencies within the church, telling the New York Times that he jumped back in horror the first time he met a gay couple, comparing homosexuality to everything from pedophilia to zoophilia, and pushing for Nigeria to enact a five-year mandatory sentence for homosexual acts or "associations", a bill so broad that it could lead to the imprisonment of AIDS caregivers.
Perhaps the good Rev. Warren’s purpose drives him too rapidly for Rick to slow down and smell the corpses. When praising his chosen Archbishop to the heavens for Time’s readers, Warren somehow overlooked how the "lion" Akinola — that confronter of First World relativism and theological drift — gave tacit approval for massacring women, children, and babies. Attaturk, however, noticed:
In May, The Atlantic magazine raised new and more troubling concerns about Akinola. In "God’s Country," the writer Eliza Griswold, daughter of the Rt. Rev. Frank Griswold, former Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church, describes a retributive massacre in the Nigerian town of Yelwa carried out in 2004 by a well-organized band of men, wearing clothing and tags that identified them as members of the Christian Association of Nigeria. Akinola was president of CAN during the massacre, which Human Rights Watch reports claimed the lives of approximately 700 Muslims. Dozens of others were kidnapped, raped or maimed…
When asked if those wearing name tags that read "Christian Association of Nigeria" had been sent to the Muslim part of Yelwa, the archbishop grinned. "No comment," he said. "No Christian would pray for violence, but it would be utterly naive to sweep this issue of Islam under the carpet." He went on, "I’m not out to combat anybody. I’m only doing what the Holy Spirit tells me to do. I’m living my faith, practicing and preaching that Jesus Christ is the one and only way to God, and they respect me for it. They know where we stand. I’ve said before: let no Muslim think they have the monopoly on violence."
Gee. Is this how Rev Warren wants to confront "theological drift"?
The very driven Reverend’s supporters—and many faithful Obama supporters and Dem party loyalists—maintain these are all mere coincidences. Mere accidental association.
Sure. Just like the fact the good Reverend Warren’s very own Purpose Driven Ministry just coincidentally employed and paid Mark Carver as one of their very own executive directors… the sort who — just by happenstance, you see — concurrently worked as business advisor for Left Behind Games.
Mark Carver, a top aide to mega-church pastor and best selling author Rick Warren, has resigned as a business advisor to Left Behind Games, the developers of a video game in which Christian militias wage physical and spiritual warfare using the power of prayer and modern military weaponry to convert New Yorkers and kill those who resist. Mr. Carver’s abrupt resignation, announced in a statement e-mailed to Talk to Action by Mr. Warren’s Purpose Driven Ministries on June 6, 2006, came in response to a two-part series on Talk to Action that criticized the game’s antisocial nature (warriors shout "Praise the Lord!" as they blow infidels away, and players can switch to the side of the AntiChrist to kill Christians). The series also revealed the game developer’s links to Mr. Warren’s empire and their emulation of his network marketing techniques. For example, Mr. Carver, Executive Director of Purpose Driven Church, served on the Advisory Board of Left Behind Games, a corporation formed in October 2001 (weeks after the attack on the World Trade Center) to develop the violent video game and distribute 1 million sample discs through pastoral networks and mega-churches.
In another of the odd "coincidences" beneath notice of exalted leaders like Senator Obama and Reverend Warren — and hence not to be acknowledged by their faithful congregations vociferous partisans — until Talk To Action broke the story, the developers of the hate video game just happened to be touting Carver and his links to Warren and the church where Senator Obama has chosen to appear tonight.
And until June 6, the Left Behind Games web site featured Mr. Carver’s name and detailed his prominent role in Purpose Driven Church. [Update: here is a screen shot from the Left Behind Games site taken before June 5, showing Mr. Carver's name and invoking the name brand of Purpose Driven Church.]
Reverend Warren’s faithful supporters — and Senator Obama’s — ask me to believe these are all unhappy coincidences. In that universe, I guess Job was plagued by trials, and Rev Warren is plagued by coincidence (kinda like the coincidence of choosing the same PR firm the patriarchical Promisekeepers and the extremist Rod Parsely chose).
In my universe, the improbability drive doesn’t take me there. Too many random "accidents" to be ascribed to mere chance. Nope, to me this looks like Intentional Design. Talk to Action sees a purpose driven connection, as well.
Do we think that Mr. Warren would allow his name brand and reputation to be casually invoked in a major business venture that involves one of the largest publishers in the Christian marketplace, who published the Left Behind novels, one of the best selling fiction series of all time? Does anyone think that Left Behind Games invoked the name brand of Mr. Warren’s Purpose Driven Church without his permission? Since this possibility is far-fetched, what we are looking at here is a business/marketing alliance between several evangelical business and ministerial entrepreneurs for whom the Great Commission also means great profits.
Who cares? Well, observers from the rightwing New Republic to corporate CBS News note that:
Regardless of which candidate benefits the most from this joint appearance, however, the biggest winner is Warren himself
Given the intense focus on tonight’s events, for once even the New Republic and CBS seem to be right.
So why is Senator Obama choosing to elevate Rick Warren and his eliminationsist, anti-choice message?
And what does his choice say about the Democratic Party and what passes for America’s democracy in the 21st Century?
At long last, have the Dem "leaders" no shame? Have We The People no sense of decency? What won’t we tolerate in those we hope to see advanced to Power?
Related posts:
Spotlight
Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Advanced search
Umm — not to pre-empt the zed, but in case any readers may find the following truths not to be self-evident
(1) Obviously, McCain would be a catastrophe as Prez.
(2) Depsite his flaws, Obama would be preferable to McCain for Prez: the difference between the two is significant.
(3) We’d all be better off seeing progressives in states with close races cast sufficient votes for Obama for him to win sufficient Electoral College votes to win the Presidency, thus denying the Presidency to McCain and the Rethugs.
Short version: criticism of Obama is not synonymous with or equivalent with support for McCain.
Rick Warren said on my teevee just now that he’ll ask exactly the same questions of “Barack” and “John” — nice he’s on a first name basis. Then David Shuster speculated that if Rick was going to ask questions about character, Reverend Jeremiah Wright’s name may come up. I wonder if Carol McCain’s name will come up.
And how will either name come up in a discussion of character, if identical questions are being asked of each candidate?
Good pm Doc.
Why is it that my mind flashed to the Wounded Knee and Sand Creek massacres and to “religious” leaders like Cotton and Increase Mathers
Aloha, Doc! ‘A date with hate…’ LOL!
Way to stake out the moral high ground there, reverend! It is surprising sometimes that rival religions can’t get along, they hate most of the same things and people. Thank goodness they pray to a loving god, otherwise we’d really be in trouble.
The U.S. is a quasi theocracy. The goal of many would be something similar to what Iran or Saudi Arabia is, only Christian. It’s time to tax these religious bigots, jingoists, xenophobic ultra-nationalists. These money maker preachers will then find another scam to fleece the people of the U.S. who are becoming more ignorant and superstitious by the day.
Johnny McTeleprompter has 8,984,283,913,489 hateful assholes around him and in his life. Barack spends one evening on the stage with Johnny McTeleprompter with Rick Warren and suddenly…….Barack Obama is dragged down the stairs by his feet as the Democrats across the nation laugh, point, and spend the next week hating his guts to the core!
I’m voting for Barack Obama.
Barack Obama has always exposed himself to different religions and isn’t like George Bush who thinks Evangelicalism is the only religion that matters and who thinks the others religions should be eradicated from the earth.
Johnny McTeleprompter has no problem with Rick Warren’s views nor does he care about what Rev. Hagee had to say when he was courting Hagee’s support. Hagee thinks the Catholics are Satan and holds similiar views as the president of Iran when it comes to the Jews. Oh, but that’s okay! If Barack even scribbles outside the lines when he’s coloring, that’s enough to berate him for the rest of his life. And we all know that Barack Obama is responsible for the actions of all people in his life right up to 1 second ago. McTeleprompter is not.
My family and friends in France, Italy, and Great Britain just shake their heads over the subject of American politics and religion. They are stunned that a scientifically advanced 1st World country is in the stranglehold of religious neanderthals. They recognize the signs of a society in decline.
So, someone tell me why this event is happening?
Why is Obama going to be there? To appeal to evangelicals? He doesn’t need this forum to speak about his faith, does he?
I’m going to watch, but I’m dreading this.
Great question! Too bad the bar has been lowered so much as to be cleared by a snake…!
Hi folks! If the spirit moves any to Digg and/or Reddit, I’d be grateful.
Teddy, I love those questions. Should Rick Warren ask Obama about the Wright, I’d love to see the Senator turn the question back to Akinola.
(and I’d like a pony)
Good pm to you, foothillsmike. Jesus’s message was so peaceful – and is so powerful. Though it isn’t new (the early Christian “fathers” literally killed one another other the doctrinal disputes that reflected their own power struggles), the long history of how prominent and powerful
American “men of faith” distort Jesus’ message to excuse the most hideous acts simply appals me.
Aloha, CT! glad you liked that phrase.
Ratfood, we really would be. I’m still hunting for the article that describes how – in his past official role heading up Nigeria’s Christians (Anglicans?), Akinola had a seat on the Nigerian goverment council that ordered really hideous human rights crimes and oppression against Nigerian people and ethnic/religious groups. Quite the lion. SO glad Time and Rev Warren could extol his lofty beliefs and acts to us all.
It may not be as bad as all that. The event is being co-sponsored with a pro-gay organization (forget the name), so there will be questions from both sides of the spectrum.
I’m almost afraid to ask – but is this thing gonna be broadcast/televised? I am, after all, a glutton for punishment. I mean the good reverend (well, maybe not so good… and should reverend be capitalized? – Oh well, I digress)surely will at least do a better job of covering topics of relative importance – you know real issues, unike, say Charles Gibson and George Stepahnopoulos?
I’m sure BO is quite capable of dealing a swift verbal backhand without either of those other two twits (McSame & Warren)even having a clue as to what thit them.
A guy can dream, can’t he?
It would seem that he is more concerned with appealing to a voting block that is trapped in the 18th Century (or earlier) rather than reaching out to progressives who aren’t fearful of the future. In a way he was probably forced to because had he declined the mainstream corporate media would have crucified him, they still may.
I think it is supposed to be on c-span otherwise cnn & msnbc
I believe that Obama is doing this to show that he can stand up to these jerks. He appears to be a religious man himself so he doesn’t have anything to fear.
Digg it here.
Howdy, Kirk!
Dugg your post.
Broadcast on CNN: 5-8 PDT
Maybe Obama will take the Bullsh*t by the horns….wake me up if that happens…
KKKarl is having a frikkin’ ball. Too bad he’s not in jail. Yawn….but that will never happen…because Muccous Membrane won’t do anything about it…
We march on…into what? Who the F knows.
Thanks newtonusr and ratfood!
I think a lot of people are fearful of the future, including some progressives I know.
Mrs. Greenspan is interviewing him right know… Warren sez “I’m only interested in their world views…” Huh? WTF is that BS…?
Is this the article you were looking for? It’s the Atlantic article on Akinola, who is a truly revolting piece of work. I oughta know, as a cradle Episcopalian…
grazi, all.
*donning haz-mat suit*
wish me luck
;~P
The format is interesting with the candidates being asked identical questions without opportunity to hear their opponent’s answers. If it results in more substantive answers than we are accustomed to, I could see applying a similar formula in other (secular) settings.
What amazes me about evangelicals is that they believe in an authoritarian way that they have the “correct” interpretation and that they don’t pick and choose their morals the way “sinners” do. However, when it comes to violence, hatred and judging others, they clearly pick and choose what is important to them. They seem incapable of recognizing that the original old testament said we should not eat pork. Today we eat pork. We also were allowed to rape our neighbors daughter if the neighbor raped our daughter. There are many aspects of the bible that NO religion takes literally today.
At some point we figured out that pork was not a moral issue. We figured out that circumcision was not a moral issue.
But they choose to believe that “violence” is something we can be flexible about, but not homosexuality. That says it all doesn’t it?
It’s Blasphemy.
Our theological war on contraception may literally cook the planet: every birth which the parents would otherwise have sought to prevent brings another person into the nation with greatest per person global warming gas production on the planet.
Hell of way to care for Creation.
If I needed another reason to not vote for Obama (which I don’t) – it would be his participation in this event.
Not to mention the sin of consuming shrimp! (or cheese on the burger!)
Aah, so that’s your problem, eh? *g*
The difference being conservatives, Republicans, neo-cons and dipshits want to run to the past while making a profit whereas progressives, despite the daunting challanges, want to find workable solutions to meet those challanges.
One of the many!
That IS an interesting setup. No way to shade your answers or try to sail closer to the wind based on what the other person said.
Tonight’s “debate” is a chance for Evangelicals to figure out who they’ll embrace in November, isn’t it? I think it is. Had Johnny McTeleprompter been in charge of selecting the person for this debate, he would have chosen the current leader of the KKK.
I see what you’re saying. I’m still fearful, but I do want to move forward. Forward into a world that is healthier. I want to see all people being honored as equal humans. Sperm and eggs, you’re on your own. ha.
Exactly. They are sort of suicidal…makes me think of those Heaven’s Gate people…. unforkinbelievable…..hence the koolaid, of course..
If you follow the “Piper’s” trail…..it all leads to doom.
The Piper’s a Madman.
Lemmings…good thing only 29% of them are lemmings….
Senator Obama will either give them what-for (which the Goopers are salivating for), or he will take the pledge (in his campaigns mind preserving certain windows of electability) and keep the middle, if not in his boat, then at least not swimming the other way.
This, like so much in this campaign, is about preserving ‘Hillary voters,’ without which Obama simply cannot win.
It’s a pick your poison afternoon/evening.
And even for those of us who are voting with certainty for Obama (because McCheese is simply not an alternative), it’s a tough pill.
That’s an excelelnt article, but not the one I’m looking for you. Thank you, though.
As a cradle Episcopalian, would you be coomfortable sharing your perspective on whether (and if so, how) AKinola and the anti-gay schismatics in the global Episcopalian/Anglican Communion have deailed and/or diverted the Communion’s historic thrust toward global social justice?
Methinks Warren’s celebration of Akinola reflects siupport for Akinola’s hatred of gays and the regressive consequences of Akinola’s lust for schism.
I thought of you instantly when I read this on the Book salon thread…
Am I right…? ;-)
The KKKorporate Media will demonize Barack by November
as sure as the sun rises.
It matters not 1 whit whether whom he chooses as his VP–The KKKorporations hate him & will do everything they can to destroy him. Regardless, OBAMA may as well take a Progressive VP, since it will make little difference in votes or Korporate/Media support.
KKKonservatives will not vote for Obama.
Progressives will go to The Wall for Obama.
As if it will make any difference who the VP is—It will just mean the Korporations will start a tad sooner on their orgy of attack
and destruction.
Selecting HOWARD DEAN or RUSS FEINGOLD will ensure OBAMA will have a loyal FIGHTER on his side, instead of a potential traitor (i.e.Lieberman),
or an equivocating WEAKLING.
OBAMA NEEDS to run with a PROGRESSIVE VP.
~~~ModNote: Portion removed. It would be helpful if we could keep our imaginations in check and off these pages as to some scenarios.~~~
Rick Warren is going to be on his best behavior tonight. He has visions of becoming “the voice of American Christianity” in the 21st century, taking over the mantle worn by Billy Graham in the 20th century. He also has visions of oh-so-politely telling Dobson, Robertson, and the rest of the Moral Majority types that he’s got the Big Pulpit in town, not them.
My nightmare is that folks who do not know Warren will think that his voice *is* the voice of Christianity.
Our priest calls it “bibleolotry” and it drives him to distraction down here in the middle of “Bible Believing Baptist/Christian” country. And there’s no discussion with them. If you come up with a verse or verses that stands what they’re banging away about there’s always some specious reason why THEIR verse carries more weight than yours.
You know in all fairness, I’ve never seen Bob and Marion in the same place at the same time…
Many people around the world are beginning to see the greatest threat to the global envirnoment are the U.S. and a citizenry that views itself as exceptionalist and entitled.
Excellent points, Rev!
Mahalo, CT!
If this were the case, I wonder if Obama will decide to “stand up” to Neo-Nazis by appearing before them and submitting to their leader’s questions for an hour: in public.
Seems like more is at work here than merely standing up to hate speech and eliminationist preachers.
Of course, if that is the real reason Obama chose to appear (again) with Warren, in Warren’s megachurch — but this time agree to spend an hour answering Warren’s questions before a global audience — we can all expect to hear the Senator denounce Warren’s eliminationism, support for hate speech, and oppostion to “sinful” reproductive freedom with all the Senator’s considerable rhetorical gifts.
Sadly, I think I’ll be seeing that pony first.
The notion that lemmings engage in mass suicide is actually a myth. Humans have a much greater tendency toward self-destruction.
Your entire neurosensory input must filter through a simple amoeba like binary on/off switch predicated on Obama love. It is a remarkable and fascinating phenomenon to watch. For about 15 seconds.
You got to hand it to the guy, this is a brilliant PR and advertising move.
*ouch* was that necessary, bmaz? 8-(
I’m so sad to see what is happening to our country.
“Senator Obama, tell us how you think Senator McCain’s leadership skills were honed by being a VietCong prisoner of war?”
“Senator McCain, I know you are loathe to discuss this, but can you tell us how your leadership skills were honed by being a prisoner of the VietCong and tortured for five years?”
And, does anyone trust Rick Warren to put John McCain in a cone of silence? I bet he — and his team — will hear every single question put to Barack Obama and have an hour to craft a response to it.
Same difference.
Rick Warren knows *all* about PR and advertising.
I might even go so far as to say he knows it better than he knows Christian theology. But that’s just me.
And a money-maker too! David Shuster said that the seats were assigned via lottery, and that some people paid as much as $2000 for their tickets tonight.
A tad stiff I think.
I don’t hear anyone impugning your takes for intellectual girth, or biological reflex.
Someone forgot to tell Rick Warren
h/t to the commenter who shared this link with us on 7/29
No, I think they’ll give McCain a television hooked up to the Olympics. When the hour is up and his turn on stage comes, he’ll be in a grumpy mood because he’ll have to miss Dara Torres in the 50 Freestyle finals.
It’s been simply ghastly. Here at home the vestry of Christ Church, Savannah, founded by Wesley, and “the Mother Church of Georgia,” has voted to place itself under the Bishop of Uganda. The parish is led by a raving homophobe who has been known to inveigh against homosexuality from the pulpit. The current Bishop of Georgia, the largely ineffectual Henry Louttit, has authorized and encouraged a “shadow” parish that we’re calling “Christ Church in Exile.” I say “we” because my boss is on that vestry and we talk often about this.
On a national or international issue at the very least it’s a terrible distraction from what the Church should be doing in the areas of disaster relief, etc. The problem stems from the fact that at this point the majority of people in the Anglican Communion are no longer white and first world, and Canterbury has bent over backwards, to the point of possibly breaking the back of the Communion, to acknowledge this and the different viewpoints that come to the table. That being said, Akinola is a prime example of someone who should have been stripped of holy orders.
Should I “gasp”? I did, then I though bmaz wtf?
It is very disappointing that Obama is entertaining these kind of ideas. There is no place in America for this type of attitudes.
Signed, Mrs. Frog.
Well, it’s certainly what we strive to be! And how extraordinarily kind of you to say that you thought of me when reading that. [blush]
Their $2000 will be put to good use. As soon as Rick pays off his solid gold house and his rocket-car, I’m sure he’ll be happy to share whatever is left.
The idea Obama is entertaining is that this event gives him a chance to address a segment of voters who otherwise might not give him an unfiltered hearing.
I’m not sure I agree that this is the best way to do that, but that’s the thinking of the campaign.
Couldn’t help but think of ya, Ma’am…! ;-)
Good summary of this issue, I think.
It is very difficult for church leaders in the North to confront some of these beliefs in the Southern church (global south that is) without setting themselves up for being called racists and hanging onto the church’s colonialist past.
Yep. The Reverend and the Senator — along with many of their reflexive supporters — sure mastered this PR message:
Marion, thank your for that thorough (and sad) description. How tragic.
I disagree too, considering the fact Warren can (and will) skew the questions…!
Rick Warren…BS, BS, BS, BS, BS…
Who gives a flying f what Warren thinks….Warren Buffet yeah, Rick Warren…who the hell is he?????
Excuse me!!!
He doesn’t speak for “my God”…..
Like I care about his opinion more than that of anyone else?
America has gone completely insane.
KKKK Karl Rove and Ralph Reed rule!!!!
I am now going to puke.
Of all the unpleasantness to come out of the Christ Church situation one of the “funniest” in a grim sort of way was when one of the doyens of the parish was overheard to gasp “Do you realize that the Bishop of Uganda is BLACK?” I guess in her mind a lovely elderly British cleric, who served tea and biscuits at 4 every afternoon, had the job. Typical, and tragic.
Watch how they edit this stuff…
McAffair, McCheater… will come out smelling like a rose.
What is being preached in the Canadian Anglican pews, Fern?
It truly sucks. And of course it’s headed to the courts, so the Diocese can regain control of the building. The only bright spot in that situation is that the judge is a singularly intelligent, informed and unshakable Jew. (I know his wife very well, and have met him on a few occasions. Judge Karpf won’t be whipsawed…)
“Senator Obama, why do think people characterize your wife as bitter, angry, prideful, and unwholesomely insubordinate to your will?”
“Senator McCain, why do think people characterize Michelle Obama as bitter, angry, prideful, and unwholesomely insubordinate to her husband’s will?”
I just pedaled past the theater across the street where Bill Maher is performing tonight. There was a fairly sizable group on the sidewalk, and I was slowing down to ask whether they were going (and whether I could go with them *g*). Then I noticed that they were just staring at the marquee and reciting the rosary.
Poor ole Bill is an atheist, ya know….
Can’t say that I know. I haven’t been in an Anglican church more than about twice in my life. They are struggling though with a group of churches that are aligning themselves with an African bishop over the issue of homosexuality.
yep.
I’m not so sure. To call evangelical support for McCain tepid is probably an overstatement. He might actually have more to lose from this than Obama.
Obama can win the election without widespread support from evangelicals, I don’t think McCain could say the same.
Perhaps that is true, I apologize. I admit to still being testy from the conduct during our Democratic Rules Committee liveblog.
Do you know what percent of Americans identify themselves as evangelical christians?
my nightmare, too. though i now tend to worship with pagans, the message of Jesus – the mainline Protestant Christianity I grew up with just where James Dobson first parasitized religion with is politics and ambition – is a message I still revere and cherish.
For me, among Dobson and Warren’s most evil acts are their perversion of Christ’s message and their deliberate campaign to persuade the uninformed that the hate, and ambition they puruse for their own advancement are actually a part of His teaching.
Were all the food banks’ customers’ bellies stuffed? Were all the homeless children housed, warm and fed? Were all the disabled and mentally ill veterans tended to? Were the battered women sheltered and safe from their abusers? Had all the moneychangers been cast from the temple? It must be an amazing Christian community where people have the spare time to say the rosary aloud and in public, because all on earth within their reach is healed by their service.
Extraordinary waste of time and effort — praying for Bill Maher’s soul.
This survey will probably tell you more than you want to know…
“Senator Obama, Senator Lieberman said you don’t always put your country first, how do you respond to this claim?”
“Senator McCain, Senator Lieberman said Senator Obama doesn’t always put his country first, how do you respond to this claim?”
We respect you and value your potent insight and contributions, bmaz! But, your doing a disservice by needlessly lashing out at a long time commenter…
Thank you!
yep.
Mr. Rev is all giddy about this happening (he’s a rev. too) and he was all giddy about Amy Sullivan’s book too.
Me, I find it all repugnant. I want politicians out of the churches. Period.
But you get to show off what a committed, dedicated Christian you are… I guess they’ve never read Matthew 6:6, have they?
I confess I don’t know the current estimates. My point was simply that they have broken overwhelmingly in favor of Republicans in the last two election cycles and in both cases the outcome was very close.
OMG!
BlueTexan is kindly drunkbloggin the sorry spectacle: the drunkblogging should be a hoot.
I’ll keep checking in here from time to time, too….
You’re welcome!
BlueTexan upstairs!
Drunkblogging The Obama-McCain Faith Smackdown
On this we are in complete and total agreement.
State meet Church…”Faith in Public Life” wow no more separation. They will not stop until the secular state is under their God.
The witch hunt is on. All children of christions that happen to be gay will be….what to?
We can start with scarlet letters for untouchables IDed with holograms on their forehrads if they dare enter the sactuary. No gay bible classes. Hmmm discrimination law suits?
Obama won’t tolerate those kinda folk.
Little history: up until the 70’s the dhurch was traditional, Then new fundy sects were created like Presbyterian church of USA vs Presbyterian Church of America. In these environments non christian mores of open hate were welcomed and the hate folks found a comfortable new home away fron tolerance.
These churches became profit based and their large clergt staff was paid corporate management wages, free fancy homes, generous auto allowances some their oen jets. They had big develoment enterprises funded bt tel avangelism. Tammy Faye and company were a milder group.
It’s this simple.
Which candidate is going to be more comfortable talking about the issues raised in this forum?
Which candidate is going to be more comfortable talking about faith and values?
I’m looking forward to seeing this, but I can’t see how Obama could lose. And I can’t see how McCain could win any voters from this.
Yay.
I’m so pleased to see this article. Strong. Great.
As an Episcopalian and full inclusion advocate for lgbt folks, you have NO idea how many of us have been writing on this Warren/Obama connection, let along the Akinola (Archbishop from Nigeria), Orombi (Archbishop from Uganda), and Bul (Archbishop from Sudan) hate speech and its implications and many have been writing on it for quite a while. It is disgusting and in reality causes violence against and separation of those who struggle on this issue in those three countries–and there are many more in countries around the globe. And like they don’t have their OWN problems? Sudan has 12 year-old girls, Twilight Girls, prostituting themselves because her family has to eat. And Bul is worried about a gay man on another continent, claiming, absurdly, that this openly gay, partnered Bishop gets in the way of him helping his people with clean water and food? Yeah, I know what you’re thinking. Believe me, I know.
There are, clearly, cultural anomalies extant in these countries. That does NOT, however, give place to advocation of violence by ANYONE, let alone any Anglican Archbishop.
This also goes deeper than you might imagine. It has legs with the IRD (begun in 1982 and which is a right group that has mixed its fingers in Latin American pies (one of their current directors worked with the infamous Ollie North) and they have, currently, on staff an ex-CIA employee) who are actively and covertly attacking the US mainline (generally liberal) Protestant churches in an attempt to push them to the hard right. Akinola is also involved with these same folks, and their supporters.
The association of Obama with this outrageous, if smooth, Baptist evangelical is mind numbing. It just reinforces my notion that everyone believes the evangelical vote is ”in play”, politically, and that whatever it takes to get it is fine.
Obama lost my vote sometime back, unfortunately. I am going to have to go with a third party after 35+ years as a liberal dem. The whole thing makes me nauseous.
canycany, thanks for your comment and your info.
could you share more about the IRD?
thanks!
How can Obama lose votes in OC? Well, the whacked OCRegister (no fan of the Iraq war, thankfully) has never met a dem they like. Their extremely weird Ed Board will spin Obama negatively and there are independents here that will draw from that, given the OCR is the largest print in the county.
That’s how.
You bet, and you are most welcome. You have no idea how happy I was to see this piece. I, personally, am VERY angry as are many in TEC/Anglican Communion. In fact, if you type in the names of the three I mentioned earlier, you will come up with a host of blogs, no doubt, that have written on it including mine.
Here are some links to sites that have done extensive research on the IRD, and go to the IRD site, itself, and read their press work and statements. And, just so you know, we have an OC homeboy and his wife right in the thick of it, Howard and Roberta Ahmanson, former followers of the very weird Rushdoony head of the Chalcedon group which, in fact, advocated for stoning of certain folks IN the US in modern times, something that Ahmanson (who was at his bedside when he died) later said he no longer thought necessary.
Here are some links, search for IRD (Institute of Religion and Democracy):
http://www.publiceye.org/
http://www.theocracywatch.org/
Believe me, the web is deep and large and the players in IRD also include the wife of Supreme Court nominee Bork whose wife sits on the Board of IRD along with Roberta Ahmanson (also search Fieldstone Foundation), Fred Barnes, Editor Weekly Standard and (suprised?) also Fox News propagandist… well you get the picture. You can go here to see their site and board members, etc.: http://www.theird.org/NETCOMMU…..;srcid=183
yep you bet. I was an atheist/agnostic for most of my life until I finally realized that the hate message put out by those you name (and more… geez, if you have never lived in the Bible Belt imagine turning on TV at ANY time of day and having maybe 28 channels with evangelicals asking not only for your literal soul but your wallet and dissing anyone they do not believe can be a follower based on literal interpretation of the Book) was not the issue but the problem. Boy, talk about idolotors!
I get exactly what you are saying.
canycany, thank you. what you describe – destroying religious institutions to thwart their furtherance of Jesus’ teachings – is a great evil, and a mockery of the Divine.
oops – almost forgot: what’s your blog?
http://justanotherblacksheep.blogspot.com/
McCain was not captured and imprisoned by the Viet Cong, but rather by the People’s Army of Vietnam and imprisoned in Hanoi. The Viet Cong were the rebels leading the insurgency in the south.
This insanity must stop. ALL religions must be exposed for the fraud that they are. Fictional boogeymen in the sky do not talk to charismatic bearded fat cats who then fleece followers of millions in the name of a loving god.
Christianity is a two thousand year old FARCE. Islam is a one thousand four hundred year old FARCE. Hindi, Buddhism, Scientology are demonstrably insane.
Religion will not cure your diseases. Religion will not bring you wealth, unless you are the preacher. Religion will not grow your crops or cure you marital problems. But embracing religion at the expense of reason WILL make all these things WORSE.