Count me among the detractors of such outreach, which just erodes what separation of church and state we have left. That said, one of the things that impresses me about Obama is that he has a lot of guts going onto potentially hostile turf, whether it be a megachurch, or a diner full of whites in southwestern Missouri. He wants to be president of the whole country.

Coulda been a zed.

coulda been..

So, hands up — who thinks all the McCain footsie with Ralph Reed has anything to do with the snubs from the Dobson/Engle old-style evangelical crowd? Or is it more to do with Rove’s crony enrichment program?

Judith Warner has a column in the NYTimes today discussing the democratic platform and abortion. It’s worth a read.. I thought that this comment was relevant.. “There may be something more going on here as well, as was suggested this week by Douglas Kmiec, professor of constitutional law at Pepperdine University, and a former Reagan Administration lawyer who once wrote briefs requesting that the Supreme Court overturn Roe v. Wade and now supports Barack Obama.
“We’ve been trying to find the elusive fifth vote on the Supreme Court for over 30 years,” he said during Tuesday’s press conference. “We have not found it and even if we did find it, overturning Roe will not save a single life but instead merely return the question to the states.” “

It’s certainly been interesting to watch, having seen the timidity first hand from the Kerry non-response to the NRA here in WV, for one place. Will be very interesting indeed to watch how this plays out on the way to November. My guess is there will be no sitting back and taking anything, given how they’ve already responded to the Corsi book by handing journalists a detailed rebuttal on each and every lie — with footnotes and research already provided for them. Nothing like giving the lazy among us a hand so they don’t have to bother to fact check, I suppose. *g*

Reed is trying to gain back his standing in the Republican Party in GA. By sponsoring a fund raiser for the Republican nominee, he thinks that he can help himself.

Christy, he can afford his own tums. But, he’d have to be in touch with his own inner stomach. Self aware and all that.
Great post, CHS. I think a lot about faith, theology, character and morals.
But, man-oh-man, that’s a Big Can To Open Up. Worms anyone?
Hysterical is just the edge of that discussion.
Sad is a large part.
(BTW, check out the comments at 39 – 48 downstairs. Could be something of interest to you or maybe Jane.)
Hoping things are going well at Chez Redd.

I think it pre-dates Reed. They weren’t particularly fond of McSFB when Hagee was spouting his venom on behalf of the campaign. The gap has widened noticeably since then. I’ve also noticed that Rev Phelps and his nutjob followers/family haven’t been in the news lately. The fundies didn’t do a very good job of making friends over the last 8 years.

So…they don’t watch Bill Moyers?
I think you’re right. Correct. Again.

I saw that and linked it up above — there is a LOT of material out there, as you all can see just from this post and the prior one that I did on the Warren forum and the “God gap” upheaval between Obama and McCain. There is a lot in flux at the moment, and the most you can say is that a whole lot of these folks are thinking about simply sitting out the election, which is very bad news for McCain.

Christy, your posts the last few days are excellent. I plan on tuning in tomorrow night just to see how Obama handles the questions. Supposedly McCain with not hear the questions until it’s his turn. The comparison between the two should be interesting.

Well, in Phelps case, it’s certainly a well-earned shunning.

Thanks much. It’s helpful to get feedback on whether it’s useful — or too much at once. I get a lot of e-mails on various posts, and the feedback usually boils down to “great post” or “way too much information.” *g*

There are many fundies who repel me but Reed makes me feel oily just to look at him. He is so sleazy. Don’t think he is going to be able to get his old cred back.

WWJNMBC: Who Would Jesus Name Ms. Buffalo Chip?

Things are good — have been staying up waaaaaay too late watching the Olympics this week, though. I need a nap! *G*

mweee heeee — that should have had a spew warning…

Hey Digg this post by Christy!
Great Post Christy this is something we all need to pay attention to… These are people who would like nothing else but to push Their morals on the rest of us! And we probably don’t share those same morals… Something is wrong with this picture! The founding fathers wanted to keep religion and state separate and these chumps want to join them at the HIP!

Never too much info, Christy. This is a great post and a subject that interests me greatly. I don’t think that a lot of people who are fairly conservative would consider themselves fundies and among people I know who are conservative, religion is something you don’t talk about at all.

I have to say, between the Jenna’s minister calls McCain out for offering his wife up for a titty contest and the Bob Barr visits the Dobson HQ news, I was laughing a lot while writing this. Sometimes, it truly does feel like The Onion has a better feel for the pulse of the world. I don’t know how they can possibly find things to satirize these days, because reality is already such a farce.

Caldwell is a widely respected pastor. Not a nutcase, even if conservative. I think his word carries truth and weight and sanity.

Would someone post where the Obama/McCain conversation is being carried? I think I have missed the schedule piece. Thanks

Oh, and I just loved the pix on the post — beautifully composed, I thought. And it felt so sweet and innocent in contrast to all the machinations and grasping from the so-called leadership in so much of this piece. Hope you all enjoyed the contrast…

Ordinarily I wouldn’t expect a libertarian to garner many votes from evangelicals, since they would pretty much like to outlaw everything and that doesn’t mesh well with the libertarian philosophy. This year might be the exception. They really don’t care for McCain. The older evangelicals in particular won’t entertain the notion of voting for Obama. Barr might draw a surprising number of votes, not enough to be a contender but enough to make Republicans sweat.

Jeffrey Goldberg at The Atlantic has a fresh interview up of Warren as well. Man o man are they giving this the full out media push…

The event website says CNN will be broadcasting the forum live. It’s scheduled from 5 to 7 pm PST.

not enough to be a contender but enough to make Republicans sweat.

There’s a possibility that Barr could actually be a spoiler, drawing enough liberatarians to cost McSFB a state or two. I imagine he’ll get a lot of the Ron Paul vote.

I’d be willing to bet that despite any suggestion to the contrary, McCain’s VP choice will be pro-life. He has invested too much time and energy pandering to the base to quit now.

I don’t know whether you’re still here or are back to work, but tried a google search and failed to come up with anything. But, then, I’m not the best g-searchers.
He’s just such a creepy, evil man.
Hi, anyway.

That is my hope. Seems like it should be our turn.

Bev — there was a post at the WaPo today from a United Church of Christ pastor lambasting Warren for holding a political forum at his church. I tend to be a “keep politics out of religion” person, frankly. But I wondered what you or any of the other clergy or religious folks in the audience thought about that? Here’s a link to the WaPo piece.

Obama’s got an opportunity here. Let’s hope he does something with it. Don’t have cable, sound card is dead and I can’t read lips so I’ll just have to get my info here. I can live with that.

Updated above: Lest you think I’m kidding about the ”antichrist” insinuations, CNN has now picked up the story.  Purely in the interests of journimalism, I’m sure.

Read her post. Interesting that’s it’s a Her Post, huh? I think if a politician is a faithful and an active member of a congregation, it’s fine that they attend as a politician. Showing up for a photo-op. Not good at all. Pastors who hold their flock to being faithful to good morals is what they should do. Telling people how to vote is not good. Showing them what politicians do that goes against the Word is okay in my book. Faith without works is hypocrisy. Oh, did I just name call? I try not to do that.
I’ve gotten “in trouble” for bringing up immoral behavior of politicians at church. Oh, well. My faith is strong and that’s my story. Sticking to it.

Hi, demi. On my way out the door. Dude is sick. I think if he’d have shown up in FL he might have had a very unpleasant reception. Deep south boys don’t take kindly to that kind of behaviour at military funerals.

They really need to take the license to broadcast away from anyone who puts sh*t like that on the public airways.

Watching CNN is dangerous to one’s health. Their political coverage has been lacking in policy information but filled with smut.

I didn’t read his book. There’s another book out there for Christians to read — the Bible. Real C’s read it with an open, loving heart.
Maybe Rick should have titled his book An Ego Driven Life.
You asked. :)

Just so we’re clear: Barack Obama is in fact not the Anti-Christ, sent here to feed on the souls of the innocent-

He is pretty skinny but I doubt if he’s that hungry. Anyway, how filling can a soul be? I’ll bet an hour after you eat one you’re hungry again.

Wow. Glad I never went to her church.

Just in case you come back later to read…
That man challenges my pacifistic beliefs. If you know what I mean. [Mod: no violence please, even in jest]

Political coverage overall this year is giving me a headache. It’s like a constant straem of cotton candy — all fluff and no nourishing substance.

Maybe we should ask the South Park dudes? Didn’t they cover that in their movie? *G*

Here is a website my little sister sent me… she thinks Obama IS the Anti-Christ….http://amazingdiscoveries.org/ You can’t help wondering how anyone can believe this shit!

I just don’t believe my sister would swallow such crap… I try not to discuss “Religion” or Politics with often..

Thanks for the link. I am a big UCC admirer, but I found her alittle shrill. I am guessing that having a political “do” at a a church location can be perceived as a “slippery slope”, but I do not think the conclusion is that simple.

As has been pointed out here, the Bible has strong callings for social justice/social equity, so there are claims, even like MLK, that there is a place for Biblical teachings to inform what we think and do politically. The position that seems most inviolable in not to advocate for a single candidate. Other than that, it’s a closer call.

I think the writer’s claim that Warren is a publcity draw is probably true. Im not sure that’s wrong either. We need more involvement. If Warren himself as moderator can be even handed, I do not think there is an inherent problem. We have a local church that fairly regularly makes political information part of its programing. Palast has spoken there + various local and state politicos.

I guess I am not wed to the assumption that a speech or presentation violates the church-state language. Maybe a close call; can certainly be abused (see Hagee). But I do like the premise that solid, prophetic instruction from the Bible (Old and New Testament) is relevant to our moral and political lives. (Probably more than you wanted to know; more than I intended to say. Hope some of it makes sense. BL)

Did they? I missed it. I’m waiting for it to come out on whatever comes after whatever replaces DVDs. So much for me having an original idea, back to the drawing board.

Sorry..that stuff makes me sick. But probably alot out there.

I found it a little shrill, too — but I thought maybe it was just me. Guess not. *G*

What I said is violence?
Okay.
But, after reading some of the vile stuff I’ve read here, I have to really question this.
There have been so many really offensive things written here.
Still, okay. But, it does feel like you’re picking on me. Truly.

Christy. You and I had a conversation a (long) while back about commenters being treated unequally.
What do you think about that moderation?
I’m not snarking. I really would like to know.

PS….I also have a serious concern that the Right/Fundies of the religious, political world have managed to co-op the public square debate. Sean, etc. Laura Ingraham, for example, seem to believe that they alone have a moral point of view. That really needs authorative remedy. That was certainly not the moral ground, for instance, in the civil rights movement.

Last I heard, bearing false witness was still a sin, right?

maybe not;

thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbour.

it would seem bearing false witness againt your enemy is fine, and bearing false witness FOR your neighbor is fine

god’s a character

Honestly, I’m not even certain what you are talking about — because I missed whatever it was. But there are various individuals who moderate for us at varying times, each of whom has to make their own judgment in the moment about each individual comment that comes up. Some are going to be a little more strict sometimes, so are going to be more lax because it is in their nature. Can’t be more specific about it because I’ve been on the phone and haven’t had time to monitor every single comment that’s come up today so I don’t know what, specifically, may have triggered moderation.

But I can ask around…

Me To I just don’t understand how anyone can swallow that crap… I am sure Jesus would not condone anything like that!

Fair enough. Please do.
I can email you what I wrote.
I’ve noticed a lot of new commenters here lately, which is a very good thing. I’ve also noticed a lot of old timers are not here anymore. I just want what’s best for this blog.

Ha. I always say “she’s a funny girl, that God.”

I have to say, overall, our mods do a really good job with the sheer number of comments, blogs and such they are monitoring all at one time. Every once in a while,someone may moderate something that shouldn’t be — people do make mistakes, ya know? But, by and large, they are all really great people who aren’t out to get anyone that I know of, and I’ve worked with them for a long while. I get that it’s frustrating to have something modded, but if it makes you feel any better, they’ve had to mod me a time or two when my temper got the better of me. And Jane, too, for that matter. *G*

Oh, I think the moderators are hard workers. Honestly, I don’t know how they do it.
And, oh yes, we are all human and make mistakes.
I wasn’t so much frustrated by the mod, really, whatever, I just was wondering what is considered violent. I haven’t been mod’d since my first really ugly comment I made several years (or does it just feel like that?)
I’m not mad at the lake. I just don’t like Rev. Phelps. Being a faithful one, people like him bug me.
Thanks….((CHS)).

You know the story of the Good Samaritan, right? Jesus told it when a Pharisee asked, “So who is my neighbor?” Seems that God himself took the time to close that loophole. Even your enemy is to be considered a “neighbor.”

I totally agree with the UCC pastor. I have the same questions, the same concerns and would tell them the same thing to their faces.

I find the whole Rick Warren forum idea unsettling/disturbing/toxic.

I’m looking forward to the day when churches are taxed.

Christy writes:

RedState demands an all-or-nothing abortion question from Warren or else cancel the event (I’m sure Warren is shaking in his pews)…

I was just thinking about this today: what is the pro-life answer to the dire situation where a woman experiences an ectopic pregnancy, when the fertilized egg implants inside the fallopian tube? Where does the abortion-under-no-circumstances crowd stand on this, when the embryo will not survive no matter what?

- Tom

I would hope, at some juncture, that those who want to draw bright lines on the church/state matter would read themselves into just some of the history. You can’t do the history, for instance, or abolitionism without beginning with the Quakers in the late 1700’s, and then moving forward with the Evangelicals (guys like William Lloyd Garrison) through the first half of the 1800’s. You have to take in all those denominational fights that split virtually all of the Protestant Churches between 1820’s and the Civil War, which were all about the morality of slavery and abolitionism, without comprehending how profoundly influential churches were (and still are) in framing this master social justice issue in our history. Yes, on some issues some churches have had a negative impact — Temperance for instance. On others they split seven days till Sunday — Peace Movements and opposition to wars, as an example.

What should bother us most is the tendency of the media to narrow the range of religious argument and positions they report. Larry King, for instance, somehow can’t find anyone with a theological or religious point of view other than those of the Falwell (RIP))/Robertson tendency. That is what we should find objectionable.